The Second Coming of Prabhupada

[Guruvani]

Should we think that Srila Prabhupada left the planet after leaving his body or that he is coming back to continue to lead the Krishna consciousness movement since it appeared that there was unfinished business when he passed away?

 

Should we otherwise think that since Srila Prabhupada specifically authorized his murti to be installed and worshiped in ISKCON that in fact he never left ISKCON but entered into his murti to receive the worship and service of the ISKCON devotees?

 

Is the murti a living thing or is it more or less an idol statue that only symbolizes Srila Prabhupada?

 

Did Srila Prabhupada abandon ISKCON upon leaving his body?

[AncientMariner]

 

Should we think that Srila Prabhupada left the planet after leaving his body or that he is coming back to continue to lead the Krishna consciousness movement since it appeared that there was unfinished business when he passed away?

 

Should we otherwise think that since Srila Prabhupada specifically authorized his murti to be installed and worshiped in ISKCON that in fact he never left ISKCON but entered into his murti to receive the worship and service of the ISKCON devotees?

 

Is the murti a living thing or is it more or less an idol statue that only symbolizes Srila Prabhupada?

 

Did Srila Prabhupada abandon ISKCON upon leaving his body?

 

Even a clueless neophyte like me with a limited understanding of Vedic knowledge can figure out that based on the Vedas Prabhupada's murti is a living thing.

[AncientMariner]

I would like to get a big statue of Lord Rsabadheva with his hair all disheveld on all that with the stones in his mouth when he was entering that forrest to get burned up subtle body or whatever. I love the thought of God wandering around as a madman with stones in his mouth playing around like an idiot.

[mahak]

I dont accept that a so-called murti is sitting there alive, watching the abuses going on. The abuses accelerated upon his disappearance, just as they occurred immediately after he was safely on a plane heading somewhere else. He is not where such abuses are commonplace.

 

ISKCON may have abandoned him long before his disappearance, and he even hinted this point in his published works like madhya lila as he tells us of the activities of the kali cela.

 

Srila Prabhupada has led this movement, now he has gone into residence in the heart of his true disciples who are now leading. By leading, I mean following in his footsteps as he did, the Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga we always say. He retired from leading ISKCON in 1970, years before he disappeared. His leadership consists of being accessible in the heart of his disciples and followers, as he clearly promises.

 

Just like Jesus, no one will recognize a second coming, mainly because we missed the first coming as well.

[AncientMariner]

 

I dont accept that a so-called murti is sitting there alive, watching the abuses going on. The abuses accelerated upon his disappearance, just as they occurred immediately after he was safely on a plane heading somewhere else. He is not where such abuses are commonplace.

 

ISKCON may have abandoned him long before his disappearance, and he even hinted this point in his published works like madhya lila as he tells us of the activities of the kali cela.

 

Srila Prabhupada has led this movement, now he has gone into residence in the heart of his true disciples who are now leading. By leading, I mean following in his footsteps as he did, the Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga we always say. He retired from leading ISKCON in 1970, years before he disappeared. His leadership consists of being accessible in the heart of his disciples and followers, as he clearly promises.

 

Just like Jesus, no one will recognize a second coming, mainly because we missed the first coming as well.

 

 

Interesting perspective as I never thought of that angle on things. I have always liked your take that the true disciples of Prabhupada have been exiled from Iskcon. Where you brought up examples in the Vedic literature where great devotees of Krishna were essentially in exile and put through all kinds of hardships but came out victorious in the end. I always found that concept appealing.

[Guruvani]

 

I dont accept that a so-called murti is sitting there alive,

 

Most of us are probably guilty of that.

But, in reality, the murti is probably more alive than us.

In our conditioned material existence we think the murti is dead and only we are alive, but in reality the murti is probably the living thing and we are actually dead.

 

The deity is not alive!

We are alive!

 

Such is the way of the baddha-jiva.

[CCC]

 

I dont accept that a so-called murti is sitting there alive, watching the abuses going on. The abuses accelerated upon his disappearance, just as they occurred immediately after he was safely on a plane heading somewhere else. He is not where such abuses are commonplace.

 

ISKCON may have abandoned him long before his disappearance, and he even hinted this point in his published works like madhya lila as he tells us of the activities of the kali cela.

 

Srila Prabhupada has led this movement, now he has gone into residence in the heart of his true disciples who are now leading. By leading, I mean following in his footsteps as he did, the Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga we always say. He retired from leading ISKCON in 1970, years before he disappeared. His leadership consists of being accessible in the heart of his disciples and followers, as he clearly promises.

 

Just like Jesus, no one will recognize a second coming, mainly because we missed the first coming as well.

 

It is said tht a devotee can talk with Srila Prabhupada, recently I post a conversation with Him (Srila Prabhupada conversation 2002).

 

 

 

and about second comming of Jesus I know that He will come but to judge

 

 

Hari Bol

[Guruvani]

 

and about second comming of Jesus I know that He will come but to judge

 

 

If he comes then maybe he can visit a Hare Krishna temple and learn how to chant Hare Krishna and go back home back to Godhead and forget about the father in heaven who forsake him on the cross.

[Kulapavana]

 

Most of us are probably guilty of that.

But, in reality, the murti is probably more alive than us.

In our conditioned material existence we think the murti is dead and only we are alive, but in reality the murti is probably the living thing and we are actually dead.

 

The deity is not alive!

We are alive!

 

Such is the way of the baddha-jiva.

 

There is absolutely no shastric basic to support that guru's murti is alive just like Vishnu tattva Deities are alive. Prabhupada's murti is simply a symbolic representation of our acharya.

[Guruvani]

 

There is absolutely no shastric basic to support that guru's murti is alive just like Vishnu tattva Deities are alive. Prabhupada's murti is simply a symbolic representation of our acharya.

 

so, Prabhupada approved of idol worship?

Ok, I see now.

[Kulapavana]

 

so, Prabhupada approved of idol worship?

Ok, I see now.

Look, this is actually a very controversial issue, without much precedent and with zero scriptural basis.

 

Just because Srila Prabhupada approved installation of his murtis in all the temples it does not mean that all of a sudden these murtis aquired the properties of Vishnu-tattva murtis. If to you the Prabhupada murti is alive - all the power to ya! Yet to claim that in the theological sense we believe these murtis are akin to Krsna's Deities is patently false.

[suchandra]

 

Look, this is actually a very controversial issue, without much precedent and with zero scriptural basis.

 

Just because Srila Prabhupada approved installation of his murtis in all the temples it does not mean that all of a sudden these murtis aquired the properties of Vishnu-tattva murtis. If to you the Prabhupada murti is alive - all the power to ya! Yet to claim that in the theological sense we believe these murtis are akin to Krsna's Deities is patently false.

Not so sure if we should tell Krishna how dear is Srila Prabhupada to Him?

Looks like nowadays people consider that Krishna leaves it to us, how we think and Krishna will adopt our view to see things. However, is this kind of understanding in the line of bhakti? Rather Narottama das Thakur reveals us a different attitude.

 

 

1) He who brought the treasure of divine love and who was filled with compassion and mercy--where has such a personality as Srinivasa Acarya gone ?

2) Where are my Svarupa Damodara and Rupa Gosvami? Where is Sanatana? Where is Raghunatha Dasa, the savior of the fallen?

3) Where are my Raghunatha Bhatta and Gopala Bhatta, and where is Krsnadasa Kaviraja? Where did Lord Gauranga, the great dancer, suddenly go?

4) I will smash my head against the rock and enter into the fire. Where will I find Lord Gauranga, the reservoir of all wonderful qualities?

5) Being unable to obtain the association of Lord Gauranga accompanied by all of these devotees in whose association He performed His pastimes, Narottama Dasa simply weeps.

 

source: Vaishnava songs

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Some think that Guru is not omniscient. They ask: “If Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada knew that practically all his sannyasis would fall down, why did he give them sannyasa?" They are wrong to doubt. Lord Ramacandra knew that Sita would be stolen, so why did He go running after that deer? Krsna knew everything. He knew that His dynasty would be destroyed by becoming intoxicated on rice wine and killing each other. Why did He not stop this from happening?

Don’t think that Guru is not omniscient. Guru always remembers Krsna and Krsna is with him. Srila Suta Gosvami has said, “My Guru, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, knows everything.” If you do not reconcile this, you will have some doubt in Guru. Guru is omniscient, but Guru should be bona fide. Try to follow my instructions and be happy.

[sevabhakta]

 

Look, this is actually a very controversial issue, without much precedent and with zero scriptural basis.

 

Just because Srila Prabhupada approved installation of his murtis in all the temples it does not mean that all of a sudden these murtis aquired the properties of Vishnu-tattva murtis. If to you the Prabhupada murti is alive - all the power to ya! Yet to claim that in the theological sense we believe these murtis are akin to Krsna's Deities is patently false.

 

 

The only way any murti "all of a sudden" acquires the properties of internal potency is when a person authorized by dint of their sincere devotion and strict adherence to their spiritual masters orders invites the Lord to be present there. These symptoms of the installer and worshipper are what the Lord respects, and then reciprocates to.

 

If a murti was installed as per Srila Prabhupadas instructions, for one to claim it may or may not be empowered shows a great lack of understanding of the Lord's ability to act at HIS will through his pure representative.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

The only way any murti "all of a sudden" acquires the properties of internal potency is when a person authorized by dint of their sincere devotion and strict adherence to their spiritual masters orders invites the Lord to be present there. These symptoms of the installer and worshipper are what the Lord respects, and then reciprocates to.

 

If a murti was installed as per Srila Prabhupadas instructions, for one to claim it may or may not be empowered shows a great lack of understanding of the Lord's ability to act at HIS will through his pure representative.

 

 

One should be very careful when engaging in extrapolations, however well intentioned.

 

Just like the material univeses emanate only from the pores in Lord Mahavishnu's body, the mystical presence in an arca vigraha form is reserved for the Lord alone. In our tradition (see Hari-bhakti-vilasa for example) there is absolutely no reference to the guru murtis being anything more then a symbolic representation of one's guru, while there are countless references to the Lord's murtis being actually the Supreme Lord Himself.

[HerServant]

 

If he comes then maybe he can visit a Hare Krishna temple and learn how to chant Hare Krishna and go back home back to Godhead and forget about the father in heaven who forsake him on the cross.

 

Just like you Guruvani? You visited the Hare Krishna temple and what have received for it?

 

Yes we can forget the father in heaven who forsakes (us) our material body on cross of humanity and material exisitence.

 

Or we can study that this saying of Jesus further "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?" is the ONLY reference in the bible that Jesus does NOT call God His "father in heaven".

 

Every other reference Jesus makes to God is as "Father" "Abba" .. but only once and only once does Jesus call God Eli or Eloi.

 

Also if you study then the Hebrew diety name Eloi and Eli .. you can only find that these names are cognate with Hare and Hari, and the greek Helios

 

The saying "Eli Eli, lama sabachtani" is so enigmatic that the bible's translators, did not attempt to translate this saying into Greek or Hebrew. Instead, they left this saying in its original form and added the translation "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me"

 

Therefore, Jesus' words, even must have baffled the evangelists who recorded the Gospels. That is, they saw no issue with translating all of His other sayings, but this one, they leave in "original form". Therefore, it is conceivable that Jesus is speaking an ancient form of Sanskrit:

 

Eloi Eloi L®ama = Hare Hare Rama

 

sa - patience

b(v)a - Bearing/Carrying

Tha - disease, danger

ni - subdues, conquers

 

So " Eli Eli lama sabahthani" becomes Hare Rama by His Mercy (patience) bears all disease (sin consumed by Shiva) and conquers it."

 

Tha is also a name for Shiva, who "became poison" as He drank the "hala hala" and as St. Paul says of Jesus, "he became sin" to destroy death.

[Beggar]

 

Eloi Eloi L®ama = Hare Hare Rama

 

sa - patience

b(v)a - Bearing/Carrying

Tha - disease, danger

ni - subdues, conquers

 

So " Eli Eli lama sabahthani" becomes Hare Rama by His Mercy (patience) bears all disease (sin consumed by Shiva) and conquers it."

 

Tha is also a name for Shiva, who "became poison" as He drank the "hala hala" and as St. Paul says of Jesus, "he became sin" to destroy death.

 

 

 

Fifth Offense: artha-vadah To give some interpretation on the holy name of the Lord.

Padma Purana

Brahma Khanda 25.15–18

Ten offenses to the Holy Name

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

 

Fifth Offense: artha-vadah To give some interpretation on the holy name of the Lord.

Padma Purana

Brahma Khanda 25.15–18

Ten offenses to the Holy Name

 

 

 

 

Is it that it's offensive to give *any* interpretation of the Holy Name, or is it that it is offensive to give a *mundane* interpretation?

 

If it's the former, then wouldn't it be offensive for the acharya to say that "Rama" in the Maha Mantra refers to Radha-Raman, and not Ramachandra, son of King Dasaratha?

[Kulapavana]

 

 

Fifth Offense: artha-vadah To give some interpretation on the holy name of the Lord.

 

Padma Purana

Brahma Khanda 25.15–18

Ten offenses to the Holy Name

 

 

 

often translated also as "considering the glories of the Holy Name to be imaginary"

[Beggar]

 

 

Dash-Vidha-Nama-Aparadha

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda-dev Goswami Maharaj

 

"guru krishnarup han sashtrer pramane

gururupe krishna kripa kore bhagyavane"

se gurute marttya-budhi avajñadi tyaji

ishtalabh koro, nirantara nam bhaji

 

Krishna appears to us in the form of Sri Guru and this is evidenced in all the scriptures. In this form of Sri Guru, Krishna bestows his mercy on the fortunate souls. Therefore, one should never consider the sat Guru to be an ordinary person. Serving him will fulfill all of our spiritual desires.

 

[cbrahma]

Who knows? Since the Prabhupada disciples that were set up as leaders in so many cases betrayed him, I really believe Prabhupada left ISKCON to its own devices (or vices).

Since ISKCON has been misappropriated under the guise of the bona fide acarya, it seems unlikely that the murtis are non-different from himself. It means he would be presiding over his own apharada. (against himself).

One has to have associated with the pre-samadhi ISKCON to understand the extent of the deviation.

[HerServant]

 

 

Fifth Offense: artha-vadah To give some interpretation on the holy name of the Lord.

Padma Purana

Brahma Khanda 25.15–18

Ten offenses to the Holy Name

 

 

 

 

"“Oh my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names, like Krsna and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. Oh my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them.”"

 

An intepretation is a purport on the Holy Name. Not describing the linquistic variants of the same Name. For example, when Srila Prabhupada told us that Krsna is Krsta he is speaking of Linquistic (dialects) .. this is not an interpretation

[sevabhakta]

 

One should be very careful when engaging in extrapolations, however well intentioned.

 

Just like the material univeses emanate only from the pores in Lord Mahavishnu's body, the mystical presence in an arca vigraha form is reserved for the Lord alone. In our tradition (see Hari-bhakti-vilasa for example) there is absolutely no reference to the guru murtis being anything more then a symbolic representation of one's guru, while there are countless references to the Lord's murtis being actually the Supreme Lord Himself.

 

It is not about the murti.

 

How many gurus are there noted in the scripture? The various different animals which serve as guru. The forms that instruction can take through them.

 

Srila Prabhupada spoke of his Guru always being available to him. People see Srila Prabhupada in visions, dreams.

 

I suppose you will just chalk that up to some material manifestation of their neophyte psyche.

 

The potency of Sri Guru to instruct can come through any apparent form, an ant, a brother in law, the sun, a guru's picture, or Sri Krsna in person.

 

The lack of direct mention of the murti or picture of a saksad hari spiritual master and its transcendental nature is not evidence of its mundanity.

 

The fact that Srila Prabhupada authorized it, and oversaw the installation tells me that that murti is a bona fide transcendental device for Sri Balarama to use as he sees fit as Guru of us all.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

The fact that Srila Prabhupada authorized it, and oversaw the installation tells me that that murti is a bona fide transcendental device for Sri Balarama to use as he sees fit as Guru of us all.

 

 

that it is... another device of Sri Guru, just like a picture of Prabhupada on the back cover of my Gita - you just have to see it in the proper way.

 

but to claim that acharya himself is personally present in his murti just like Krsna is present in his duly installed arca vigraha is completely bogus.

[sevabhakta]

 

that it is... another device of Sri Guru, just like a picture of Prabhupada on the back cover of my Gita - you just have to see it in the proper way.

 

but to claim that acharya himself is personally present in his murti just like Krsna is present in his duly installed arca vigraha is completely bogus.

 

Who claimed the above anyway??

 

Guruvani did liken the murti to a deity in his post...

 

 

Most of us are probably guilty of that.

But, in reality, the murti is probably more alive than us.

In our conditioned material existence we think the murti is dead and only we are alive, but in reality the murti is probably the living thing and we are actually dead.

 

The deity is not alive!

We are alive!

 

Such is the way of the baddha-jiva

 

Thing is, for those whose faith invokes Sri Guru in Srila Prabhupada's murti, the murti is "as good as" a deity and certainly spiritualized by the internal potency every time they interact with it.

 

And that is a fact, Jack.

 

So as to your original challenge,

 

 

There is absolutely no shastric basic to support that guru's murti is alive just like Vishnu tattva Deities are alive.

 

 

Without nitpicking, they are both alive, but not JUST LIKE each other. That is true. Simultaneously one and different.

 

Guruvani was pointing out that a person who doesn't see the murti as alive, is just like the person who doesn't see the deity as alive.

 

But you read more into it, and one thing led to another.

 

Visnu tattva deities only become imbued with spiritual potency at the proper invocation of an intimate servant of the deity.

 

If that invitation is not followed up by caring concern and worship, they reserve the right to skedoodle, and just leave a statue behind.

 

Likewise, the same Lord Visnu reacts accordingly to those who seek shelter in their Guru through his murti, especially a murti installed by the Guru himself.

 

I hope this clears it all up.

 

Hare Krsna