Is ISKCON exclusive? Am I welcome?

[Shushan]

I've been going to ISKCON temples on and off all my life since I was 5 years old (so that's 35 years!), and Krishna is my main ishtadeva, though I am also happy with other Vaishnava, Saivite, Shakti etc. deities. I love chanting the maha mantra, but also chant to Shiva, Devi etc., and I think the current "Radhe Radhe!" chanting is great, and actually empowering for female devotees. I also find a great deal of value in certain elements of Buddhism. In my heart, I am equally at home in ISKCON temples as I am in any other Hindu temple. Yes, I know, ISKCON devotees don't consider themselves Hindus...! I don't actually consider myself one either - I just follow what feels right and true for my own spiritual path.

 

I do not have a guru and do not necessarily feel the need for one. I am wary of many of their motives, have problems with the hierarchical structures, and do not agree with all their teachings. There are HUGE egos all around, and I see them in gurus, musicians, and at pretty much every level of every ISKCON or Hindu temple I've been to. One of the great things about ISKCON is that it ignores the caste system, but this has not abolished big egos! All the in-fighting, bickering, controversies etc. attest to this, and until I see a guru immune to their own egos, I follow my own path of study and chanting....

 

I don't wish to offend anyone, but I also don't agree with some of Prabhupada's interpretations of the Gita or with some of his teachings. And I don't feel like I have to. For example, sex with my wife is an expression of love, not lust, and to me love is the closest we can come to divinity on earth. Maybe this means I have sahajiya leanings! Whatever, I refuse to limit my expressions of physical earthly love to procreation purposes only and don't see any valid reason for it. Too much like Catholicism! There is no guilt or shame in being human.

 

Clearly, there are parts of the Vedas that are no longer applicable to modern society. Otherwise we'd still be sacrificing animals, as the Rig Veda instructs. Change within a religion is not always necessarily a bad thing, and in fact is sometimes the only way it can survive. Even in the Mahabharata it says that it is worse to not kill a man who deserves to be killed than to not kill at all. I don't think many of us would agree with that.

 

I don't feel the need to stop eating onion and garlic, I like an occasional glass of wine with dinner, and the idea of giving up chocolate (caffeine) is unthinkable! I don't think these things make me unworthy or impious or a bad person or whatever. I also find that there is some hypocrisy about 'sense gratification', when incense, music and chanting, sometimes 8 or 10 different kinds of wonderful prasadam (including sweets), etc. are a feast for the senses. Why are these okay but not other forms, if they are within reason and done with love? Answers like "because Prabhupada said so" just do not cut it for me. Please don't get me wrong - there are many more things I respect and admire about him than otherwise - just not EVERYTHING.

 

I also would never even consider for a moment not associating with non-devotees, because that would cut off most of my family and friends. To me, that is not a sign of devotion or non-attachment, but a total denial of love and what it means to be human. That's what cults ask you to do, and has been one of the main criticisms of ISKCON.

 

On my last ISKCON stay, I was met with some disapproval about my inclusive attitude to religion. It even seemed that because I've been going for a long time it was even worse - as if I've rejected it. The fact that I come out of genuine interest, love, connection, and spiritual devotion, and that I chant and dance with enthusiasm and contribute karma yoga does not seem to matter to certain people if I don't accept Krishna and ONLY Krishna as the one true Supreme Godhead, and sign up to everything Prabhupada said. This is exactly what born-again Christians say about Jesus. I felt it was very exclusivist and judgmental, and it made me feel very unwelcome. This was very disappointing considering that ISKCON has been my main focus of spirituality for most of my life.

 

Of course not all devotees are like this, and there are always more warm, friendly people at temples than otherwise - people I would trust with my life within minutes of meeting them!

 

So my question is, given my liberal and INCLUSIVE views about religion, and the fact that I'm unwilling to accept and adopt all of ISKCON's "requirements", am I even welcome? Is there an official policy on this?

 

Hare Krishna,

Shushan.

[suchandra]

 

I don't feel the need to stop eating onion and garlic, I like an occasional glass of wine with dinner, and the idea of giving up chocolate (caffeine) is unthinkable!

As your practical realization reveals for yourself and everyone else, the spirituality as attained within present ISKCON cannot even uproot attachments like you mention above. And this is reported by many people who actually tried to find out, is there genuine spiritual happiness to be found within present ISKCON? Are there Vaishnavas within ISKCON actually not only having attained the state of pure spirituality but also being able to bring others to that state? If, after 35 years you're still asking this question, could be that such kind of question can't be answered by ISKCON. Where I found the answers - not within ISKCON, but within Prabhupada's books. As soon someone enjoys actual spiritual happiness, he easily gives up material attachment - he actually feels material sense gratification is dragging him down.

 

"As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy."

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.2.19

 

PURPORT

A living being in his normal constitutional position is fully satisfied in spiritual bliss. This state of existence is called brahma-bhūta or ātmā-nandī, or the state of self-satisfaction. This self-satisfaction is not like the satisfaction of the inactive fool. The inactive fool is in the state of foolish ignorance, whereas the self-satisfied ātmānandī is transcendental to the material state of existence. This stage of perfection is attained as soon as one is fixed in irrevocable devotional service. Devotional service is not inactivity, but the unalloyed activity of the soul.

The soul's activity becomes adulterated in contact with matter, and as such the diseased activities are expressed in the form of lust, desire, hankering, inactivity, foolishness and sleep. The effect of devotional service becomes manifest by complete elimination of these effects of passion and ignorance. The devotee is fixed at once in the mode of goodness, and he makes further progress to rise to the position of Vāsudeva, or the state of unmixed sattva, or śuddha-sattva. Only in this śuddha-sattva state can one always see Kṛṣṇa eye to eye by dint of pure affection for the Lord.

A devotee is always in the mode of unalloyed goodness; therefore he harms no one. But the nondevotee, however educated he may be, is always harmful. A devotee is neither foolish nor passionate. The harmful, foolish and passionate cannot be devotees of the Lord, however they may advertise themselves as devotees by outward dress. A devotee is always qualified with all the good qualities of God. Quantitatively such qualifications may be different, but qualitatively both the Lord and His devotee are one and the same.

[Shushan]

You may call them attachments, but my point is, I don't see what spiritual benefit or otherwise I will get from giving them up. I have not seen a convincing argument. What is the point? I know I don't NEED them and could give anything up if I really wanted to.... But why? Is it mainly to prove my faith? There are other ways.... And the idea of considering family and friends as 'attachments' that need to be overcome is pretty life-denying, and love-denying.

 

As I mentioned, I don't find all my answers in Prabhupada's books, either.

 

And my main question remains: am I welcome to go to ISKCON temples, chant, have prasadam, karma yoga etc. if I don't follow all their and Prabhupada's teachings? Can anyone answer this?

[Inedible]

Giving up something you enjoy because you have to is not the point. The point is that when you find something better to enjoy, other things tend to fall away by themselves. It is not discipline.

[suchandra]

 

You may call them attachments, but my point is, I don't see what spiritual benefit or otherwise I will get from giving them up. I have not seen a convincing argument. What is the point? I know I don't NEED them and could give anything up if I really wanted to.... But why? Is it mainly to prove my faith? There are other ways.... And the idea of considering family and friends as 'attachments' that need to be overcome is pretty life-denying, and love-denying.

 

As I mentioned, I don't find all my answers in Prabhupada's books, either.

 

And my main question remains: am I welcome to go to ISKCON temples, chant, have prasadam, karma yoga etc. if I don't follow all their and Prabhupada's teachings? Can anyone answer this?

ISKCON is supposed to be like the Ganges, everyone has the right to go there and get benefited. "No one has any proprietorship over the Ganges. However sinful one may be, no one can throw him out of the Ganges. That would be ridiculous."

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada, His Movement & You

 

by Hansadutta das

 

 

 

ISKCON is Like the Great Holy River Ganges

 

Here I would like to humbly suggest a positive alternative for the future development of ISKCON, which necessitates an understanding of what ISKCON is. Everyone says, "ISKCON, ISKCON, ISKCON...." But what is ISKCON?--That is the question.

ISKCON is like the great holy river Ganges. The discrepancies we see there should be considered just like the foam or stool and dead bodies we see occasionally floating in the holy river Ganges. They never contaminate the river Ganges; rather, Ganges can absorb unlimited contamination and sins of unlimited sinful persons, and still it remains pure.

As the mighty Ganges flows down from Vaikuntha and Lord Shiva, through the Himalayan mountains, through the plains of India, ending finally at the Bay of Bengal and apparently enters the salt water ocean, but in fact does not merge into the salt water ocean but goes underwater and descends to other lower planets, returning eventually to Vaikuntha, so similarly, ISKCON flows down from Goloka Vrindavan through the mighty mountain peaks of the great acharyas, through His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and his disciples who appear to be merged into the mainstream of the human society for preaching Krishna consciousness and who are all destined to go back to Godhead.

No one has any proprietorship over the Ganges. However sinful one may be, no one can throw him out of the Ganges. That would be ridiculous.

If we accept the holy river Ganges as being analogous to the flow of transcendental teachings coming down from the spiritual world to the material world via the disciplic succession (Brahma, Narada, Vyasa, Madhvacharya, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada), then some of the incongruities which we as devotees sometimes experience in ISKCON may be resolved in a realistic way.

We have already pointed out that although garbage, debris and dead bodies are to be seen floating in the holy Ganges, it is understood that the Ganges never becomes impure or polluted on that account. So ISKCON may also have apparent undesirable and non-spiritual aspects, even demons amongst its members--still ISKCON should be accepted as pure always. As with the Ganges, we simply push the undesirable debris and garbage aside and take our bath, similarly, in ISKCON we may brush aside or avoid the apparent non-spiritual members and their effects and try to dip deep into the instructions of Srila Prabhupada (books, instructions, etc.). Another consideration is that the river bed on the Ganges may be very broad, but that does not mean if we simply sit on a sand bar "where the river obviously is not flowing," we are dipping in the Ganges river. So ISKCON, as an institution, has a very wide bed, but in many parts of the ISKCON institution there may be no flow of transcendental instructions or life.

The actual flow of the Ganges river is always changing. So Ganges means only where there is an actual flow of water. Where there was water last year there may be no water this year. So in ISKCON, what was spiritually vibrant at one time may have become completely dry and mundane at another time.

Although one may bathe regularly in the Ganges river, at no point in time does one ever become Ganges, nor does one ever have the right to restrict others from bathing in the Ganges. So a devotee does not become ISKCON. He is either a sincere recipient, practitioner and distributor of ISKCON's transcendental knowledge coming from Prabhupada, or he is simply motivated to take material advantages by associating with ISKCON members. Some people may be fishermen and earn their livelihood from the Ganges in that way, thus receiving little or no benefit at all from the Ganges.

The Ganges river is most clear, uncluttered and consistently flowing nearest its earthly origin, Gangotri in the Himalayan mountains.

Srila Prabhupada can be accepted as the mouth of the Ganges, known as Gangotri.

The early pioneering devotees who assembled around Prabhupada and engaged to help him push his ISKCON world-wide can be compared to pilgrims who trek to Gangotri for purification. Some of such early devotees eventually became known as ISKCON leaders. However, no provision has ever been made by Prabhupada to give any of such leaders authority to be guru-acharyas or to restrict, cast out, or "excommunicate" any devotees from the association of ISKCON, just as a pilgrim reaching the mouth of Ganges, Gangotri, does not have any right to restrict or cast out or "excommunicate" other pilgrims from bathing in the holy Ganges River, nor does he automatically become their guru, simply because he has trekked to the mouth of Gangotri.

All rivers entering the Ganges become Ganges. All rivers flowing away from the Ganges become non-Ganges. That is to say, they lose their spiritual power. But also, we should know that sometimes within the Ganges riverbed several separate streams of flow may be seen. So ISKCON may have diverse flows of spiritual activities in its one institution. Sometimes Ganges goes underground, so also may ISKCON go underground.

Sometimes Ganges floods beyond its banks. Similarly, ISKCON will flood beyond its normal institutional banks. In all cases, we must remember that as the holy river Ganges is not to be controlled by anyone, not even by her own river banks, similarly ISKCON is not an institution to be controlled by anyone. It is completely spiritual and therefore everyone under all circumstances should be encourage to dive deep into the transcendental flow of ISKCON's teachings (as per Prabhupada's books, etc.), and thereby be saved from material existence.

All kinds of persons take advantage of Ganges. Some ply their boat from one side to the other, taking passengers to and fro, thereby earning their living in that way, some earn their living as fishermen and others use the river waters to irrigate their crops. Indeed, the British filled their ocean-going vessels with Ganges water, knowing of its unusual qualities. And lastly, some persons simply bathe in the waters of the Ganges with full faith in her transcendental power to wash away their sins. So it may be with ISKCON or as we say, "a house in which the whole world can live."

The conclusion is that everyone, under all circumstances, should be encouraged to dive in deep into the transcendental flow of the river of Srila Prabhupada's instructions. If someone helps us in that endeavour, we would offer the appropriate respect due. But we should always remember that for such assistance we are not obliged to become blind followers to be exploited by such helper gurus for money, prestige, or other material enjoyments in the name of Prabhupada and ISKCON.

Sometimes pandas post themselves at popular bathing ghats along the Ganges river or popular temples like Jagannatha Puri. They take money from innocent pilgrims, bewildering them to believe that without their intervention or assistance, no blessings are forthcoming from the river or the gods. In our ISKCON, we see many such panda- like gurus-those who pose themselves advantageously for extracting wealth, honour and sense gratification from innocent disciples, bewildering them to think Prabhupada's and Krishna's mercy is only available if one submits to them. Such gurus may be compared to dead bodies floating in the river Ganges. The materialistic activities such gurus introduce for collecting money from the innocent public may be seen as garbage and debris floating in the holy river Ganges. The preaching these panda-like leaders do to encourage and perpetuate such practices can be compared to the stool and foam seen floating on the surface of the Ganges. It can be easily brushed aside. However, when dealing with dead bodies or garbage and debris, it is advisable to wait till they float by until entering the holy river.

Actually, anyone can have full access to the flow of transcendental instructions of Srila Prabhupada, which are just like the great holy river Ganges flowing uninterruptedly down from Vaikuntha, through the disciplic succession. Those who have set themselves up as pandas for regulating and extorting the innocent public should be avoided.

A temple may be compared to a ghat along the river Ganges, which is built for the convenience of the pilgrims. But sometimes it is seen that these ghats become so crowded with materialistic men looking to exploit innocent pilgrims, it is often better to enter the Ganges at some secluded or less crowded place. In other words, it is advised by Lord Chaitanya, Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Prabhupada that it is better to remain at home and practice Krishna consciousness by following the principles and chanting the Holy Name than to prematurely abandon one's social position to join a temple or math, thinking thereby, "I am a first-class devotee." Such thinking should be avoided.

Full article

[Shushan]

 

Giving up something you enjoy because you have to is not the point. The point is that when you find something better to enjoy, other things tend to fall away by themselves. It is not discipline.

 

Inedible, I see what you mean, but it still doesn't make sense - at least to me, personally. People can obviously enjoy more than one thing in life. Why give up things that are not harmful, that are positive, just because you find something else to be positive?

 

I don't see how any amount of chanting and spiritual advancement would make me want to stop loving and being involved in my family and friends, for example. In fact, it's the opposite - it's selfish and life-denying.

[Shushan]

Thanks, Suchandra. I guess that clarifies it a bit, though again it does not seem to be an 'official' policy or stance, but Hansadutta das's argument.

 

I have to admit to being a bit uncomfortable with the analogy, though - that any who are not 100% devoted are compared with 'garbage, debris and dead bodies' etc.!

[suchandra]

 

Thanks, Suchandra. I guess that clarifies it a bit, though again it does not seem to be an 'official' policy or stance, but Hansadutta das's argument.

 

I have to admit to being a bit uncomfortable with the analogy, though - that any who are not 100% devoted are compared with 'garbage, debris and dead bodies' etc.!

The official policy might be what is stated in Prabhupada's, "The Seven Purposes of ISKCON". When Srila Prabhupada first registered ISKCON as a legal entity (in New York,USA, 1966), he gave the following seven purposes as its aims:

1. To systematically propagate spiritual knowledge to society at large and to educate all people in the techniques of spiritual life in order to check the imbalance of values in life and to achieve real unity and peace in the world.

2. To propagate a consciousness of Krishna ,as it is revealed in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam.

3. To bring members of the Society together with each other and nearer to Krishna ,the Prime Entity, thus to develop the idea within the members, and humanity at large, that each soul is part and parcel of the qualities of Godhead (Krishna).

4. To teach and encourage the sankirtan movement (congregational chanting of the holy name of God) as revealed in the teachings of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

5. To erect for the members, and society at large, a holy place of transcendental pastimes dedicated to the personality of Krishna.

6. To bring the members closer together for the purpose of teaching a simpler, more natural way of life.

7. With a view towards achieving the aforementioned purposes, to publish and distribute periodicals, magazines, books and other writings.

[dhaa]

Iskcon isn't exclusive. Anyone can be Krishna Conscious without Iskcon.

 

Peace & Creativity

[Inedible]

 

Inedible, I see what you mean, but it still doesn't make sense - at least to me, personally. People can obviously enjoy more than one thing in life. Why give up things that are not harmful, that are positive, just because you find something else to be positive?

 

I don't see how any amount of chanting and spiritual advancement would make me want to stop loving and being involved in my family and friends, for example. In fact, it's the opposite - it's selfish and life-denying.

 

As I sit here reading this thread, I am drinking a pot of strong coffee. I can't see where you thought I meant you should cut anything or anyone out of your life. Isn't there anything in your past that you used to really enjoy which you no longer even think about? And how did that happen?

[indulekhadasi]

Whether you want to give such substances is your choice.

We do not take these things because as they are in the mode of passion and ignorance they are not offerable to Krishna. So if you want to eat/drink them that is your personal choice but then you would not be able to be a prasadetarian.

[Inedible]

 

Whether you want to give such substances is your choice.

We do not take these things because as they are in the mode of passion and ignorance they are not offerable to Krishna. So if you want to eat/drink them that is your personal choice but then you would not be able to be a prasadetarian.

 

Some day I might stop drinking coffee because I don't want it anymore. If I saw some reason why coffee might be liquid ignorance, that day would come sooner. It isn't like Krishna is going to come to me in person to say that coffee is bad, and I just plain don't feel like taking His followers at their word that they know what Krishna did say and to whom.

[suchandra]

 

Iskcon isn't exclusive. Anyone can be Krishna Conscious without Iskcon.

 

Peace & Creativity

Even Lord Brahma, in order to get liberated has to wait until the term of his office expires. If someone would say, no, you can only get KC within ISKCON, this wouldnt be so far fetched.

 

 

Sri Vedanta-sutra - Volume Five by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhushana, Translated by Sriman Kusakratha dasa.

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by Shushan

And my main question remains:

1) am I welcome to go to ISKCON temples, chant, have prasadam, karma yoga etc. if I don't follow all their and Prabhupada's teachings?

2) Can anyone answer this?

 

Yes, You are welcomed. Why not? What non-sense to think you are un-welcomed.

 

If you visit the temple do you expect everyone to wonder who-what-where-when-how-why you are there?

 

When attending the temple you should act like the majority of Indians visiting —they enter, stay, donate and leave.

 

You may want the same camaraderie as temple devotees share among themselves. No? And if not then you have been slighted?

 

Karma-yoga? How do you practice this at a lace Prabhupada's teachings(?) you do mean to say that you want to be at a yoga temple but you don't follow the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comTemple</ST1<ST1:PGuru's </st1:place>instructions.

 

The reason for distancing from friends and relatives is to "prepare for death" —this is not my concept or dramatic choice of words.

 

For each birth you've had since time immemorial you had friends and relatives—where are they now?

 

Stay at the temple "to be trained-up".

 

When you visit, is there a line of people headed for the 'argument with some temple authority?'

 

When I go to the temple the place is filled with 100's of people all over the place single-mindedly doing different services, like the cup-cake sales, baby sitting, pot washing, and other esoteric mystic stuff—it's a party to practice one's behavior when we do get the audience of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and his associates.

 

My advise:

Visit the temple and consider yourself a fool, you know nothing of value for your own good, you don't know why or how you got there. Then feel the the bliss you have been following.

 

You have family who ask you to read aloud from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s Pastimes? Your family Guru is indisposed? You fear change? A Vaisnava Brahmacarya who is successful in separating his wondering mind from the his Intelligence and wisdom can conquer all Fear and thus lastly liberate himself and 10 generations, before and after him, of his own family line.

 

The people who told you that you must do this or that inorder to visit the temple said nothing about bringing the whole family with you, nor did they say that you're obliged to stay. You're free to 'Leave' the temple anytime—which again, you'd do all on your own.

<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"></st1:place></st1:City>

<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Temple</st1:place></st1:City> etiquette is what you must learn—this is very esoteric and beneficial—it will make a gentleman out of you.

 

Everyone at a temple has come from different walks of life—you must first matriculate, forward you dues, study the texts books, pass exams, tutor others, do extracurricular activities, find your niche and then leave.

 

There are Ekadasi fast days that you could do, you should do while visiting on those days.

"I don't see how any amount of chanting and spiritual advancement would make me want to stop loving and being involved in my family and friends"—nobody would expect you to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The Peace Corp, the Men's Room, Military service, Paid admission tickets, a Pair of shoes, ex-girl friend, prison time, boxing match, are the many things that you would do without … being involved in family and friends.

 

What is of value to you in a <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PKrishna </ST1:PTemple,</ST1:P</st1:place> mundane self-centered stuff?

Or, what?

Bhaktajan

[madanbhakta]

Dearest Shushan,

 

I have only been associating with ISKCON since November, but I know for a fact that ISKCON is only a Society to help us become devotees, surrendered, spiritually-realised souls for Krishna. And although you may not agree with the writings of the gurus, I still believe that reading them would be of great benefit. Reading the writings of Srila Sridhar Maharaj has definitely left a mark on how starkingly different Krishna consciousness or conceptions of Krishna can be by looking it at different angles.

 

Some people find it very difficult for certain parts of Gaudiya practice. For example, I have a more difficult time understanding why ISKCON devotees do not eat mushrooms (which are in the mode of ignorance) when eggplant, tomatoes and potatoes are in the same mode as well. Illicit sex is not a big problem for me though, although I know of a devotee whose one large contention is with this 'regulative principle'.

 

Eh, regarding chocolate, only the more fundamentalist devotees are adamant about others not eating chocolate. But most Gaudiya devotees, both ISKCON-related and non-ISKCON-related, enjoy a cup of hot chocolate. According to ISKCON, tofu and soy are not offerable to Krishna, whilst in Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, tofu and soy are definitely offerable, especially with vegan devotees!

 

In SCS Math actually, the harmonium is not used specifically because worship music should not gratify the senses and to awaken a simple devotional love for God through our voices, the mrdanga and karataalas.

 

Poverty (spiritual) is a virtue, and the story of Narada Muni and the elephant going through the eye of a needle is a wonderful example. So just because some devotees gratify their senses with very tasty prasadam, does not mean that you have to as well. I personally try not to eat eggplant, although I enjoy it when it is cooked by others. Onions and garlic are only eaten in situations where it would be rude to remove them, and meat is absolutely forbidden for myself.

 

We are coming deeper and deeper into Kali Yuga, and thus allowances can be made. I have made the decision to only read books that preach of God-consciousness; I have several translations of the Qur'an, Bible, Baha'i Writings, along with my Vedic literatures. My music can be anything clean, but worship music should be simple. I offer everything, even when eating out in restaurants, to Krishna, and I try not to hang with drug-abusers, alcoholics, impersonalists, sex-addicts, etc. and try to hang with more God-loving peoples.

 

Patience is necessary for spiritual progression. If we are too hard on ourselves, then we become simply frustrated.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said: "The center of all attraction is Krishna. His attraction is by beauty, by charm, and by love - and not by coercion and force. That is the Krishna conception of Godhead."

 

With Krishna, there is no official policy. I and all others have no right to judge your spiritual capacity but Krishna alone. ISKCON, the gurus, and other Gaudiya organisations are tools to help one to become conscious of Krishna's presence as the ultimate conception of Beauty and Love. As soon as we create disharmony, then Krishna is displeased. If every soul is a Vaishnavite, an eternal servant of God, then we must try not to offend anyone.

 

If Krishna is your Ishta-Deva, then listen to Him, pray to Him, and love Him as best you can. Chant His Name, continue associating with devotees, offer every foodstuff, action, suffering and sin to Krishna, and always think of Him constantly. Perhaps Krishna's mercy will grace you when you leave this earthly life. And of course, love your friends and family as servants of God, and worship Paramatma through them all.

 

 

madanbhakta.

 

 

 

I've been going to ISKCON temples on and off all my life since I was 5 years old (so that's 35 years!), and Krishna is my main ishtadeva, though I am also happy with other Vaishnava, Saivite, Shakti etc. deities. I love chanting the maha mantra, but also chant to Shiva, Devi etc., and I think the current "Radhe Radhe!" chanting is great, and actually empowering for female devotees. I also find a great deal of value in certain elements of Buddhism. In my heart, I am equally at home in ISKCON temples as I am in any other Hindu temple. Yes, I know, ISKCON devotees don't consider themselves Hindus...! I don't actually consider myself one either - I just follow what feels right and true for my own spiritual path.

 

I do not have a guru and do not necessarily feel the need for one. I am wary of many of their motives, have problems with the hierarchical structures, and do not agree with all their teachings. There are HUGE egos all around, and I see them in gurus, musicians, and at pretty much every level of every ISKCON or Hindu temple I've been to. One of the great things about ISKCON is that it ignores the caste system, but this has not abolished big egos! All the in-fighting, bickering, controversies etc. attest to this, and until I see a guru immune to their own egos, I follow my own path of study and chanting....

 

I don't wish to offend anyone, but I also don't agree with some of Prabhupada's interpretations of the Gita or with some of his teachings. And I don't feel like I have to. For example, sex with my wife is an expression of love, not lust, and to me love is the closest we can come to divinity on earth. Maybe this means I have sahajiya leanings! Whatever, I refuse to limit my expressions of physical earthly love to procreation purposes only and don't see any valid reason for it. Too much like Catholicism! There is no guilt or shame in being human.

 

Clearly, there are parts of the Vedas that are no longer applicable to modern society. Otherwise we'd still be sacrificing animals, as the Rig Veda instructs. Change within a religion is not always necessarily a bad thing, and in fact is sometimes the only way it can survive. Even in the Mahabharata it says that it is worse to not kill a man who deserves to be killed than to not kill at all. I don't think many of us would agree with that.

 

I don't feel the need to stop eating onion and garlic, I like an occasional glass of wine with dinner, and the idea of giving up chocolate (caffeine) is unthinkable! I don't think these things make me unworthy or impious or a bad person or whatever. I also find that there is some hypocrisy about 'sense gratification', when incense, music and chanting, sometimes 8 or 10 different kinds of wonderful prasadam (including sweets), etc. are a feast for the senses. Why are these okay but not other forms, if they are within reason and done with love? Answers like "because Prabhupada said so" just do not cut it for me. Please don't get me wrong - there are many more things I respect and admire about him than otherwise - just not EVERYTHING.

 

I also would never even consider for a moment not associating with non-devotees, because that would cut off most of my family and friends. To me, that is not a sign of devotion or non-attachment, but a total denial of love and what it means to be human. That's what cults ask you to do, and has been one of the main criticisms of ISKCON.

 

On my last ISKCON stay, I was met with some disapproval about my inclusive attitude to religion. It even seemed that because I've been going for a long time it was even worse - as if I've rejected it. The fact that I come out of genuine interest, love, connection, and spiritual devotion, and that I chant and dance with enthusiasm and contribute karma yoga does not seem to matter to certain people if I don't accept Krishna and ONLY Krishna as the one true Supreme Godhead, and sign up to everything Prabhupada said. This is exactly what born-again Christians say about Jesus. I felt it was very exclusivist and judgmental, and it made me feel very unwelcome. This was very disappointing considering that ISKCON has been my main focus of spirituality for most of my life.

 

Of course not all devotees are like this, and there are always more warm, friendly people at temples than otherwise - people I would trust with my life within minutes of meeting them!

 

So my question is, given my liberal and INCLUSIVE views about religion, and the fact that I'm unwilling to accept and adopt all of ISKCON's "requirements", am I even welcome? Is there an official policy on this?

 

Hare Krishna,

Shushan.

[AncientMariner]

 

Dearest Shushan,

 

I have only been associating with ISKCON since November, but I know for a fact that ISKCON is only a Society to help us become devotees, surrendered, spiritually-realised souls for Krishna. And although you may not agree with the writings of the gurus, I still believe that reading them would be of great benefit. Reading the writings of Srila Sridhar Maharaj has definitely left a mark on how starkingly different Krishna consciousness or conceptions of Krishna can be by looking it at different angles.

 

Some people find it very difficult for certain parts of Gaudiya practice. For example, I have a more difficult time understanding why ISKCON devotees do not eat mushrooms (which are in the mode of ignorance) when eggplant, tomatoes and potatoes are in the same mode as well. Illicit sex is not a big problem for me though, although I know of a devotee whose one large contention is with this 'regulative principle'.

 

Eh, regarding chocolate, only the more fundamentalist devotees are adamant about others not eating chocolate. But most Gaudiya devotees, both ISKCON-related and non-ISKCON-related, enjoy a cup of hot chocolate. According to ISKCON, tofu and soy are not offerable to Krishna, whilst in Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, tofu and soy are definitely offerable, especially with vegan devotees!

 

In SCS Math actually, the harmonium is not used specifically because worship music should not gratify the senses and to awaken a simple devotional love for God through our voices, the mrdanga and karataalas.

 

Poverty (spiritual) is a virtue, and the story of Narada Muni and the elephant going through the eye of a needle is a wonderful example. So just because some devotees gratify their senses with very tasty prasadam, does not mean that you have to as well. I personally try not to eat eggplant, although I enjoy it when it is cooked by others. Onions and garlic are only eaten in situations where it would be rude to remove them, and meat is absolutely forbidden for myself.

 

We are coming deeper and deeper into Kali Yuga, and thus allowances can be made. I have made the decision to only read books that preach of God-consciousness; I have several translations of the Qur'an, Bible, Baha'i Writings, along with my Vedic literatures. My music can be anything clean, but worship music should be simple. I offer everything, even when eating out in restaurants, to Krishna, and I try not to hang with drug-abusers, alcoholics, impersonalists, sex-addicts, etc. and try to hang with more God-loving peoples.

 

Patience is necessary for spiritual progression. If we are too hard on ourselves, then we become simply frustrated.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said: "The center of all attraction is Krishna. His attraction is by beauty, by charm, and by love - and not by coercion and force. That is the Krishna conception of Godhead."

 

With Krishna, there is no official policy. I and all others have no right to judge your spiritual capacity but Krishna alone. ISKCON, the gurus, and other Gaudiya organisations are tools to help one to become conscious of Krishna's presence as the ultimate conception of Beauty and Love. As soon as we create disharmony, then Krishna is displeased. If every soul is a Vaishnavite, an eternal servant of God, then we must try not to offend anyone.

 

If Krishna is your Ishta-Deva, then listen to Him, pray to Him, and love Him as best you can. Chant His Name, continue associating with devotees, offer every foodstuff, action, suffering and sin to Krishna, and always think of Him constantly. Perhaps Krishna's mercy will grace you when you leave this earthly life. And of course, love your friends and family as servants of God, and worship Paramatma through them all.

 

 

madanbhakta.

 

 

 

I like your approach. Sounds very healthy to me. Enjoyed reading your post.

[indulekhadasi]

The only prerequesite for entering the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is wanting to be Krishna conscious.

[suchandra]

 

The only prerequesite for entering the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is wanting to be Krishna conscious.

 

Bhakta David Haslam says: " I am becoming increasingly concerned that more and more people I talk to are simply at the temple because they are being paid."

Thanks Indulekhadasi - would be a good idea to remind people to join ISKCON in order to become Krishna conscious.

http://david.deltaflow.com/

[Kyros]

Sex with your wife for reasons other than begotting children is lust, not love. The reason you believe differently is because you haven't realized what Srila Prabhupadas point is.

 

The same thing with eating garlic and onions, as well as taking caffeinnated beverages or foodstuffs.

 

You can take my life for example if you want. I used to eat all kinds of stuff (no meat, but I did eat eggs). I ate tons of chocolate, drank chai (Indian coffee) since childhood. I listened to all sorts of music, from rap to hardcore rock; watched all kinds of cinemas (and I do mean all kinds).

 

Yet, because of Prabhupada's books(and some others), I can see very clearly why those things are detremental to a human being. I don't listen to any other kinds of music other than bhajans nowadays. I have lost most, if not all, taste for TV and movies. I no longer have a desire to eat outside food, and for the record, my addiction to Taco Bell is popular in my family.

 

My life is a whole lot better because I gave up all those things. Looking back, I couldn't believe I was addicted to such nonsense.

 

My advice is to do some research. Prabhupadas books are very confusing to read if you don't understand his line of thought. You're not alone in this, I had the same problem, and I can understand very well what your position is on this matter, for I to did not think I could give up sex, chocolate, video games, and anything else.

[Gaurahari das]

 

I've been going to ISKCON temples on and off all my life since I was 5 years old (so that's 35 years!), and Krishna is my main ishtadeva, though I am also happy with other Vaishnava, Saivite, Shakti etc. deities. I love chanting the maha mantra, but also chant to Shiva, Devi etc., and I think the current "Radhe Radhe!" chanting is great, and actually empowering for female devotees. I also find a great deal of value in certain elements of Buddhism. In my heart, I am equally at home in ISKCON temples as I am in any other Hindu temple. Yes, I know, ISKCON devotees don't consider themselves Hindus...! I don't actually consider myself one either - I just follow what feels right and true for my own spiritual path.

 

I do not have a guru and do not necessarily feel the need for one. I am wary of many of their motives, have problems with the hierarchical structures, and do not agree with all their teachings. There are HUGE egos all around, and I see them in gurus, musicians, and at pretty much every level of every ISKCON or Hindu temple I've been to. One of the great things about ISKCON is that it ignores the caste system, but this has not abolished big egos! All the in-fighting, bickering, controversies etc. attest to this, and until I see a guru immune to their own egos, I follow my own path of study and chanting....

 

I don't wish to offend anyone, but I also don't agree with some of Prabhupada's interpretations of the Gita or with some of his teachings. And I don't feel like I have to. For example, sex with my wife is an expression of love, not lust, and to me love is the closest we can come to divinity on earth. Maybe this means I have sahajiya leanings! Whatever, I refuse to limit my expressions of physical earthly love to procreation purposes only and don't see any valid reason for it. Too much like Catholicism! There is no guilt or shame in being human.

 

Clearly, there are parts of the Vedas that are no longer applicable to modern society. Otherwise we'd still be sacrificing animals, as the Rig Veda instructs. Change within a religion is not always necessarily a bad thing, and in fact is sometimes the only way it can survive. Even in the Mahabharata it says that it is worse to not kill a man who deserves to be killed than to not kill at all. I don't think many of us would agree with that.

 

I don't feel the need to stop eating onion and garlic, I like an occasional glass of wine with dinner, and the idea of giving up chocolate (caffeine) is unthinkable! I don't think these things make me unworthy or impious or a bad person or whatever. I also find that there is some hypocrisy about 'sense gratification', when incense, music and chanting, sometimes 8 or 10 different kinds of wonderful prasadam (including sweets), etc. are a feast for the senses. Why are these okay but not other forms, if they are within reason and done with love? Answers like "because Prabhupada said so" just do not cut it for me. Please don't get me wrong - there are many more things I respect and admire about him than otherwise - just not EVERYTHING.

 

I also would never even consider for a moment not associating with non-devotees, because that would cut off most of my family and friends. To me, that is not a sign of devotion or non-attachment, but a total denial of love and what it means to be human. That's what cults ask you to do, and has been one of the main criticisms of ISKCON.

 

On my last ISKCON stay, I was met with some disapproval about my inclusive attitude to religion. It even seemed that because I've been going for a long time it was even worse - as if I've rejected it. The fact that I come out of genuine interest, love, connection, and spiritual devotion, and that I chant and dance with enthusiasm and contribute karma yoga does not seem to matter to certain people if I don't accept Krishna and ONLY Krishna as the one true Supreme Godhead, and sign up to everything Prabhupada said. This is exactly what born-again Christians say about Jesus. I felt it was very exclusivist and judgmental, and it made me feel very unwelcome. This was very disappointing considering that ISKCON has been my main focus of spirituality for most of my life.

 

Of course not all devotees are like this, and there are always more warm, friendly people at temples than otherwise - people I would trust with my life within minutes of meeting them!

 

So my question is, given my liberal and INCLUSIVE views about religion, and the fact that I'm unwilling to accept and adopt all of ISKCON's "requirements", am I even welcome? Is there an official policy on this?

 

Hare Krishna,

Shushan.

[Gaurahari das]

I finally have begun to really apreciate the importance and need for Guru and a genuine disciplic succession after so many years grapling with trying to understand Krishna concousnness. I am 55 years old now. I realized from practical experience Only taking shelter of a genuine Guru and disciplic line can get us through all the obsticals. For me the only Guru I loved with all my heart and soul has been Prabhupada from the very beginning. He attracted me to Krishna concousness no one else had such power. He was not on the planet in 1980 so I took a zonal acharya as Guru and lost all my feeling for KC. Years later reading a verse in SP books awakened my love for him again and my service to his mission. To make a long story short in essence what I discovered is that it is love for a bonafide Guru living or departed that can help us emensly on the path. If we dont naturally love Srila Prabhupda we need to find some Transcendental Guru at some point in this life or the next to complete our journey back home. We need to serve Guru from the heart out of love and affection eventually and not because some regulation says to do it. I hope this helps<WBR>

[jschwartz]

All answers can be found in the Bhagavad-gita.

 

"All of them - as they surrender unto Me, I reward accordingly." (BG 4:11).

So, obviously, the greater your surrender, the greater your reward.

 

In the Bhagavad-gita, chapter 12, verses 8 through 11, Krishna says, in a nutshell, "if you can't do this, then at least do this other thing... and if you can't do that, at least try to do..."

 

So, IMHO, you can't be any more inclusive than the words of Krishna. I don't know ISKCON's position. Maybe they are more hard-line than Krishna.