The Letter

[Guruvani]

I don't call that kind of talk Hari-katha.

Hari-katha doesn't breed a class of offenders that don't know how to respect other Vaishnavas than the guru.

 

ISKCON has paid and is still paying a high price for the kind of mentality these words of Srila Prabhupada created in his hoarde of ISKCON fanatics.

 

At this time and place, such gossip about the Gaudiya Matha politics just sounds very petty and unnecessary.

[Guruvani]

If the Saraswata sampradaya is going to be forever divided like the Sunni and Shiite sects of Islam, it cannot be attributed to anything except the words and deeds of Srila Prabhupada in regards to ALL the other disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

Is that really what Srila Saraswati Thakur wanted?

Is that really what Mahaprabhu wants to see in his sampradaya?

Is this the legacy that ISKCON is going to leave the world - eternal sectarianism in the Saraswata Gaudiya sampradaya?

 

It's difficult to sort out the mess.

 

I understand Srila Prabhupada didn't want to lose a bunch of disciples to his Godbrothers who didn't have his fire for preaching KC worldwide.

 

But, his words live on even in 2007 and at this point in time they are seeming to be creating sectarianism and division within the Saraswata Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

I just don't see why we were supposed to bow down to every new bhakta that walked in off the streets in ISKCON and just be callous and disrespectful to all the other disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

This standard doesn't fly with me.

Something about it just seems very bigoted and hypocritical.

[Kulapavana]

 

contradiction or confusion

 

a little bit of both?

 

I can understand that SP was trying to protect his disciples from confusion, but perhaps in this process he inadvertantly encouraged them to become offenders. Some of the things he said about his godbrothers are quite likely much worse then anything they were saying about him. Seems like he banned Bon Maharaja's books for example not because of their content, but because he did not like him as a person.

[Kulapavana]

 

Is this the legacy that ISKCON is going to leave the world - eternal sectarianism in the Saraswata Gaudiya sampradaya?

 

 

Perhaps the extreme guru-centrism in Iskcon makes it unavoidable.

 

If we look at the early writings of Srila Prabhupada they were much more universalistic and congenial in their message, but as his movement gained power the message became more confrontational and fundamentalistic. And then, at the very end, he definitely wanted to bury the war hatchet and reconcile with his godbrothers. However, at that point it was too late and most of his disciples already formed very negative opinions about GM.

[BhaktiK]

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation, February 3, 1976, Mayapur

Prabhupada: "At least historically it be proved. (break) ...cause of envy of my Godbrothers. I was known. Although they knew that Prabhupada liked me very much, because I am grhastha, I was known as paca-grhastha. PACA-GRHASTHA MEANS A ROTTEN GRHASTHA. And now they say, "This grhastha has come out more than us? What is this?" (break) Sridhara Maharaja's chief disciple...?

Bhavananda: Gaura.

Prabhupada: HE ALWAYS USED TO SAY TO SRIDHARA MAHARAJA THAT "YOU ARE SEEING ABHAY BABU AS GRHASTHA, BUT HE IS MORE THAN MANY YOGIS." HE WAS TELLING."

 

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj's "chief" disciples:

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami (his chosen successor) initiated 1947

Sripad Bhakti Prasun Aranya Maharaj (Krishnasharan brahmacari, previously) initiated 1942

Sri Haricharan Brahmacari initiated circa 1950

Sri Bhakti Kiran Giri Maharaj (an initiated disciple of B.S.Goswami) initiated circa 1950

Sripad B.D. Damodar Maharaj (Subal Sakha) initiated circa 1960

Sripad B.P. Tirtha Maharaj (Prappana Krishna) initiated circa 1970

Nimaisundar Brahmacari (B.Nandan Swami) born 1960 in the family of a disciple

Krishnamayi dasi (very old bengali brahmin lady) 1943

 

There were thousands of disciples who were initiated between 1942 and 1970, but these people listed above were the "chief" disciples who lived with Guru Maharaj at the temple in Nabadwip.

 

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj never had any prominent disciple whose name is Gaura.

 

And aside from this, Thakur Bhaktivinode was a grhasta and if Srila Sridhar Maharaj considered A.C. Bhaktivedanta Das to be a grhasta when A.C. Bhaktivedanta Das was living with his wife in Kolkata, what is the mistake in that?

 

Also, cbrahma, you are giving this quote by Srila Prabhupada about how bad it is that a homosexual became a guru in the Gaudiya Math.

 

But in your another quote you have quoted Prabhupada talking with Bhavananda, a homosexual who became a Guru in ISKCON. How ironic!

 

In one quote Prabhupada is telling it is bad that Srila Sridhar Maharaj supported a homosexual such as Vasudeva. But Prabhupada himself gave a powerful position in ISKCON to Bhavananda and Kirtananda - both of whom are homosexuals.

 

In the Turley legal action against child abusers in ISKCON, the following information about Bhavananda was presented to the court.

 

Bhavananda was a member of the GBC, Governing Body Commission, and was one of the original eleven zonal gurus assigned a region after Prabhupada left in 1977. Bhavananda's region included the India gurukulas of Vrindavan and Mayapur - two of the worst gurukulas for child abuse.

 

When he took power as a guru, he had people address him as Vishnupada, or at whose feet Vishnu serves, a title of dietification and reverence.

 

Prior to joining the ISKCON movement, he was known to be bi-sexual. There is ample evidence that he carried on homosexual activity throughout his time in the movement and that the GBC knew of his sexual activities.

 

As a guru and sanyasa, he was known to engage in sexual acts with children.

 

Bhavananda was in charge of the zone which included both Vrindavan and Mayapur. Most of the Bengali boys were his disciples and so was Ananta Rupa. When Bhavananda would come to Vrindavan, his disciples and others who were in the gurukula would be sent to his quarters. Sometimes they would go over to Bhavananda's suite in the guest house and spend days there with him, serving him, and I presume in sexual ways as well.

 

Many of these boys who were Bhavananda's disciples were known to be having sex with each other and molesting other younger children.

 

Since these boys were Brahmana initiated, they performed aratis, they led kirtans and they were looked on by Dhanurdar and the teachers, as our superiors, and role models.

 

Bhavananda and Dhanurdar would insist on inspections of us children during his visits. We were to line up with only a loin-cloth, and then he would go through the showers while we were naked in the shower. He then, with a corn scrubber in hand, would look at our bodies and arbitrarily scrub some 'dirt' off.

 

I was standing in the line up, naked and scared. When he came to my turn for inspection, Bhavananda told me to go to the initiates bathroom because I didn't have to be inspected. He was trying to act as though he was being benevolent to me, but this was their way of getting you to feel special so you would become initiated and join the clique. Of course I felt really relieved that I wasn't inspected. At the same time, I felt horrible for my friends that were forced to stay and go through this abuse and humiliation. He was also just trying to protect his hide by not torturing me.

 

Bhavananda did not excuse me out of compassion, but rather because my father was a member of the GBC. He did not want to compromise his position by risking having me tell my father.

 

At times some of us were singled out and treated in what may seem to be preferencial treatment. This was actually another form of control and torture. I think that this tactic was to break our solidarity, and to get us to become like them. To ensure that we were totally alone. When these type of situations happened, I would just look at the boys who were having to undergo the mistreatment, and feel for them. To me it was the same as if they had done it to me.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj is criticized for giving passive support to the new Acharya Anantavasudeva, who was chosen by the Gaudiya Math GBC. But Srila Sridhar Maharaj was not a member of the committee and he never in fact voted for Anantavasudeva. Nevertheless, Srila Sridhar Maharaj is criticized for the fact he was affiliated with Anantavasudeva. The question then arises, what about the affiliation of Bhavananda with Srila Prabhupada? Srila Sridhar Maharaj is criticized for living in the same temple as Anantavasudev (Bagh Bazaar). But what about the fact that Srila Prabhupada put Bhavananda in the powerful position that Bhavananda used to have in ISKCON?

[Guruvani]

As I have said before and I will say it again, I think that probably one of the main reasons Srila Prabhupada spoke against Srila Sridhar Maharaja in his letters etc. was because in fact he knew Srila Sridhar Maharaja was a bhajananandi type Vaishnava for the most part and Srila Prabhupada had to figure out a strategy for keeping his followers from flocking to the Math of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and disturbing him with the kinds of petty questions and curiousity that these western devotees were all disturbing Srila Prabhupada with.

 

If Srila Prabhupada would have spoken very highly of Sridhar Maharaja then there would have been a flood of western devotees flocking to the Matha and bothering Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted to prevent that.

 

The best way to really try and prevent that was to talk bad about Sridhar Maharaja, for the protection of Sridhar Maharaja, and hope that this would prevent Sridhar Maharaja from being distrurbed and annoyed by unnecessary questions and problems of all the ISKCON devotees.

 

That is what I feel is at the bottom of the badmouthing of Sridhar Maharaja more than any actual ill-will on the part of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It was for the protection of the privacy of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

Srila Prabhupada took the fall of being the bad guy out of his respect and appreciation for the privacy of Srila Sridhar Maharaja who was old and seeking some seclusion and privacy in his old age.

[Kulapavana]

 

It was for the protection of the privacy of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

Srila Prabhupada took the fall of being the bad guy out of his respect and appreciation for the privacy of Srila Sridhar Maharaja who was old and seeking some seclusion and privacy in his old age.

 

Interesting take on this issue.

[CCC]

Well, At This moment I have read alot about Anti Sridhar Maharaj and Pro Sridhar Maharaj

 

My conclusion in this issue about Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers is that I have to read carefully the books translated by Srila Prabhupada and then compare them with the teachings of Sridhar Maharaj....

[BhaktiK]

 

Well, At This moment I have read alot about Anti Sridhar Maharaj and Pro Sridhar Maharaj

 

My conclusion in this issue about Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers is that I have to read carefully the books translated by Srila Prabhupada and then compare them with the teachings of Sridhar Maharaj....

 

Compare and examine. Go right ahead and do that. Look at both sides.

 

And as well as that just take note of the fact Srila Prabhupada wrote this:

 

 

SB 2.7.8 purp.

Prince Dhruva was initiated by Narada into chanting the hymn composed of eighteen letters, namely om namo bhagavate vasudevaya

 

AND

 

SB 4.8.58 purp.

One can meditate upon offering and chant the twelve-syllable mantra, om namo bhagavate vasudevaya.

 

 

You find some differences between the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Srila Prabhupada.

 

You will also find Srila Prabhupada wrote things that contradict what Srila Prabhupada wrote elsewhere:

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode" (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26, purport)

 

AND

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

What are you supposed to think when you read this sort of anomoly?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj gave the example that in the beginning a child is told the earth moves around the sun and that the sun is stationary. Then when the child is more learned he is told that the sun is also moving inside a galaxy.

 

To give another example, in Bhagavad gita we see Krishna teaching different kinds of yogas and that Krishna says if you cannot follow the highest path then try to folllow an easier path:

 

 

"My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me." BHAKTI-YOGA

 

"If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage." KARMA-YOGA

 

 

According to a person's intelligence he will accept whatever path seems best to himself.

 

If you cannot follow one path youself, don't criticize the path. Realize that your intelligence is limited but that God's grace is unlimited and that through many Gurus the One God is revealing himself to humankind.

 

If you criticize a real Vaishnava such as Srila Sridhar Maharaj then you may end up suffering a similar fate to other people who attacked him such as Kirtananda, Bhavananda and Harikesa.

 

Do you want to end up as a mentally ill drug addict taking sedatives, like Satsvarupa? Satsvarupa wrote an article attacking Srila Sridhar Maharaj and some people imagined Satsvarupa's article was very clever and that he was a big scholar. But look and see the sort of person that Satsvarupa has become now! The man has to go to a psychiatrist to get counselling for his mental illness!

[cbrahma]

 

 

 

 

If you criticize a real Vaishnava such as Srila Sridhar Maharaj then you may end up suffering a similar fate to other people who attacked him such as Kirtananda, Bhavananda and Harikesa.

 

 

The same applies if you criticize A.C. Bhativedanta Swami. Your post could easily be construed as such an offense.

[BhaktiK]

You are the one who started this.

 

I never criticized Srila Prabhupada, who you call A.C. Bhativedanta Swami.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

You are the one who started this.

 

I never criticized Srila Prabhupada, who you call A.C. Bhativedanta Swami.

 

I agree. I see no criticism of Srila Prabhupada from BhaktiK.

 

To insist that there is only one star in the sky is delusional. To point out that there are more than one star in the sky is not offensive.

[cbrahma]

 

I agree. I see no criticism of Srila Prabhupada from BhaktiK.

 

To insist that there is only one star in the sky is delusional. To point out that there are more than one star in the sky is not offensive.

 

My starting the thread (in favor of Prabhupada) implies nothing about stars in the sky.

But Bhatik

 

You will also find Srila Prabhupada wrote things that contradict what Srila Prabhupada wrote elsewhere:

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode" (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26, purport)

 

AND

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

Could easily be construed as an offense.

[BhaktiK]

Huh?

 

I wrote "You will also find Srila Prabhupada wrote things that contradict what Srila Prabhupada wrote elsewhere"

 

Then I gave a specific example. What's offensive about that?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Huh?

 

I wrote "You will also find Srila Prabhupada wrote things that contradict what Srila Prabhupada wrote elsewhere"

 

Then I gave a specific example. What's offensive about that?

 

To the offensive, almost *anything* looks like an offense.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Somebody recently posted a letter from Srila Prabhupada to "Vishvakarma". Assuming that the letter refers to Naranarayana Vishvakarma Prabhu, I must say, if you want a non-GBC-approved Guru, he would be a great person from whom to take instruction.

 

He's a Prabhupada man through and through, he's sincere, good-hearted, and not shy about sharing his understanding and wisdom. He was obviously favored by Srila Prabhupada, since he was given the honorific "Vishvakarma" after performing outstanding service.

 

He's in L.A., I believe.

[Guruvani]

 

To the offensive, almost *anything* looks like an offense.

 

I would change that to "to the fanatic neophyte almost anything looks like an offense".

[Beggar]

 

Somebody recently posted a letter from Srila Prabhupada to "Vishvakarma". Assuming that the letter refers to Naranarayana Vishvakarma Prabhu, I must say, if you want a non-GBC-approved Guru, he would be a great person from whom to take instruction.

 

He's a Prabhupada man through and through, he's sincere, good-hearted, and not shy about sharing his understanding and wisdom. He was obviously favored by Srila Prabhupada, since he was given the honorific "Vishvakarma" after performing outstanding service.

 

He's in L.A., I believe.

Yes, but you must know that within the last few months at age of 65, Naranarayana Visvakarma Prabhu married a 24 yr. old women. He gave that women rtvik initiation, so he is essentially her guru. Nara Narayana has created his own sampradaya. He even believes that the chanting of Nita Gaura Hari bol at during and at the end of kirtan is part of an evil Gaudiya Math conspiracy. (since Prabhupada never did it.) Nara Narayana is also a hardcore Fall-Vadi. He also constantly makes propaganda against Srila Sridhar Maharaj. If you want spiritual instruction---DON'T GO THERE!!!!!!

[cbrahma]

 

Huh?

 

I wrote "You will also find Srila Prabhupada wrote things that contradict what Srila Prabhupada wrote elsewhere"

 

Then I gave a specific example. What's offensive about that?

Saying the guru is contradicting himself could be taken as offensive by his disciples - easily. Try it sometime.

[Guruvani]

 

Saying the guru is contradicting himself could be taken as offensive by his disciples - easily. Try it sometime.

If anyone finds true facts to be offensive, then whose fault is that?

Someone has shown how Srila Prabhupada has made contradictory statements and has proven his case with references from the actual words of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If someone has a problem with facts, that is just too bad for them.

Not everyone is OK with contradictions and double-talk.

If you are, then fine.

But, don't expect everyone else to buy into it.

[BhaktiK]

 

Saying the guru is contradicting himself could be taken as offensive by his disciples - easily. Try it sometime.

 

 

This kind of mentality is typical behavior of a cult member.

 

Thankfully I don't come in contact with any disciples of the type you describe.

[cbrahma]

 

If anyone finds true facts to be offensive, then whose fault is that?

Someone has shown how Srila Prabhupada has made contradictory statements and has proven his case with references from the actual words of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If soneone has a problem with facts, that is just too bad for them.

Not everyone is OK with contradictions and double-talk.

If you are, then fine.

But, don't expect everyone else to buy into it.

Sometimes contradictions are only apparent.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Yes, but you must know that within the last few months at age of 65, Naranarayana Visvakarma Prabhu married a 24 yr. old women. He gave that women rtvik initiation, so he is essentially her guru. Nara Narayana has created his own sampradaya. He even believes that the chanting of Nita Gaura Hari bol at during and at the end of kirtan is part of an evil Gaudiya Math conspiracy. (since Prabhupada never did it.) Nara Narayana is also a hardcore Fall-Vadi. He also constantly makes propaganda against Srila Sridhar Maharaj. If you want spiritual instruction---DON'T GO THERE!!!!!!

Well, he's like an uncle to me.

 

My point was, if you want a faithful Prabhupada-only guru, he's about as good as you can get. I saw a loving exchange between him and Bharadraj Prabhu once that melted my heart.

 

I'm sorry to hear that he has anything to say against Param-Gurudev (certainly he has had the good sense not to talk that way to me), but, as I said, he's a "one-master dog" (in the best sense of the term).

 

As I've also said before, we all get the guru we deserve.

 

Maybe I should just shut-up now (or a long time ago).

[Beggar]

 

Saying the guru is contradicting himself could be taken as offensive by his disciples - easily. Try it sometime.

Sometimes in in his purports Srila Prabhupada was parphrasing one tika or commentary, then another. It's the tikas or commentaries that appear to contradict. This takes place for two reasons, one is the doctrine of acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva or simultaneous oneness and difference. One of the ramifications of this is that the "Truth" can be seen from myriad angles of vision. The other reason is that in Gaudiya Vaisnavism an acarya can make a contribution with his realization that may be unique but still seen to be in the purview of guru, sadhu and sastra. There is no Pope in Gaudiya Vaisnavism although the ISKCON GBC may seek to pontificate by committee.

[cbrahma]

 

This sort of mentality is typical of a cult member.

 

I hope God saves you from your own mind.

Blind defense at the expense of offending others is certainly 'cult-y'.

I wouldn't know. I'm not a member.