The Letter

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Sometimes contradictions are only apparent.

 

I've argued this point myself with atheists who try to blast the Bible as being contradictory. No doubt, in the Lord's infinite vision, all apparent contradictions can be harmonized.

[Guruvani]

 

Sometimes contradictions are only apparent.

 

Or, sometimes they are just obvious.

Nobody should have to be in a position of trying to balance two opposing ideas given by the same guru.

 

Srila Prabhupada treated most all of us like idiots, so if he thought we were idiots then why didn't he talk in such a way that us idiots wouldn't find apparent contradictions in his teachings.

 

Keep it simple for us idiots.

Don't confuse us with APPARENT contradictions that takes a thesis of philosophy to rationalize.

[Beggar]

 

 

As I've also said before, we all get the guru we deserve.

 

 

An elderly man who marries a women young enough to be his grand-daughter is displaying symptoms of being thoroughly attached to the material world. Such a person is the guru of those wishing to drown in the ocean of sense gratification.

[Guruvani]

 

I've argued this point myself with atheists who try to blast the Bible as being contradictory. No doubt, in the Lord's infinite vision, all apparent contradictions can be harmonized.

 

I have already harmonized them, but who is going to accept my rationale.

So, instead of trying to show them the meaning I see, I just react to the fanatics like a fanatic to show them how stupid they look.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Dayal Nitai!!!

 

Symptoms can be deceiving.

 

 

An elderly man who marries a women young enough to be his grand-daughter is displaying symptoms of being thoroughly attached to the material world. Such a person is the guru of those wishing to drown in the ocean of sense gratification.

[Beggar]

 

... but, as I said, he's a "one-master dog" (in the best sense of the term).

 

Maybe you could say that for an experienced ISKCON sannyasi who doesn't have a bad word to say about anyone. But in this case such a statement is absurd.

[Beggar]

 

Dayal Nitai!!!

 

Symptoms can be deceiving.

So go ahead and recommend him as a divine guide to someone. Later on in your life maybe you will be able to determine what form of suffering that you experience that you can directly attribute to that act.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Are you sure you're not just jealous?

 

 

An elderly man who marries a women young enough to be his grand-daughter is displaying symptoms of being thoroughly attached to the material world. Such a person is the guru of those wishing to drown in the ocean of sense gratification.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Fair enough. If I had to recommend a guru to anybody, you know who I'd recommend.

 

If somebody lives in L.A. and says they won't accept any GBC-approved Guru, yet seem attached to staying within ISKCON, doesn't it make sense for them to at least take *instruction* from one of Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples who are making no show of false renunciation?

 

 

So go ahead and recommend him as a divine guide to someone. Later on in your life maybe you will be able to determine what form of suffering that you experience that you can directly attribute to that act.

[Guruvani]

There is no such concept in Gaudiya Vaishnavism as "one-master dog".

That is some kind of anti-Vaishnava idea.

In Vaishnavism one is supposed to learn to see guru in everything and everyone.

 

The one-master dog idea is for dogs, not devotees.

[cbrahma]

 

This kind of mentality is typical behavior of a cult member.

 

Thankfully I don't come in contact with any disciples of the type you describe.

 

I'm sure if they 'proved' that Sridhara Maharaj contradicted himself you would accuse them of being 'cult' members on the mental platform.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I'm sure if they 'proved' that Sridhara Maharaj contradicted himself you would accuse them of being 'cult' members on the mental platform.

 

Perhaps this ought to be my signature:

 

 

<dl><dt>Do I contradict myself?

 

Very well then I contradict myself,

 

(I am large, I contain multitudes.)</dt><dd class="author">

Walt Whitman

,

"Song of Myself"

 

US poet (1819 - 1892)

</dd></dl>

 

[Beggar]

 

Fair enough. If I had to recommend a guru to anybody, you know who I'd recommend.

 

If somebody lives in L.A. and says they won't accept any GBC-approved Guru, yet seem attached to staying within ISKCON, doesn't it make sense for them to at least take *instruction* from one of Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples who are making no show of false renunciation?

 

You are clearly making the assumption that if one is a Gaudiya Vaisnava sannyasi is then they are automatically a false renunciate. I know that some people on this forum have said more or less the same thing openly that you are implying. But your guru is a sannyasi and so is your param guru and so is the maha param guru Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada. Be careful about making half-baked statements in the future. You are not seriously considering what you are saying and what are the ramifications of your words. Most of us on this forum are in the stage of sravana das or hearing, that is the main problem here on this forum. Very often those on all sides of issues either are uneducated in Gaudiya siddhanta or just not thinking and letting their emotions cloud their perception. It is possible to pick up some very bad habits on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions.

[Guruvani]

 

I'm sure if they 'proved' that Sridhara Maharaj contradicted himself you would accuse them of being 'cult' members on the mental platform.

 

Hypothetical possibilities and actual facts are two different things.

Present some facts, or otherwise your hypothetical situation is useless and meaningless and above all a cheap-shot.

[BhaktiK]

According to Lord Siva, Vyasa may not know or understand the whole of the philosophy of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam

 

 

Translation by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuapada:

 

Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila, Ch24, Verse 313

 

aham vedmi suko vetti, vyaso vetti na vetti va

bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam, na buddhya na ca tikaya

 

"[Lord Śiva said:] 'I may know; Śukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, may know; and Vyāsadeva may know or may not know Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. On the whole, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the spotless Purāṇa, can be learned only through devotional service, not by material intelligence, speculative methods or imaginary commentaries.'"

 

 

However even if the Guru seems to have limited knowledge, that Vaishnava Guru must be shown infinite respect.

 

At the same time, we may not necessarily agree to follow what the Guru does or says.

 

Brahma is the founder of the Brahma-Madhva sampradaya. He is Guru. But he stole Krishna's cows and friends because he couldn't recognize Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

Madhvacarya, in his conception of how one should see the acarya, the

spiritual master, could not harmonize Brahma's bewilderment. After

all, he is the sampradaya guru, the foremost guru of the tradition, the

Brahma-Madhva-sampradaya. So Madhvacarya omitted these two

chapters on the illusion of Brahma from Srimad-Bhagavatam. But

Mahaprabhu did not. He accepted Sridhara Swami's edition, which is

in accordance with the suddhadvaita philosophy of Visnuswami. The

Visnuswami sampradaya are followers of ragamarga, spontaneous

devotion. Sridhara Swami included those two chapters with his

commentary, and Mahaprabhu accepted that, and it is corroborated in

Caitanya-caritamrta. Madhvacarya could not accommodate the idea

that guru may be seduced. He could not tolerate that guru may not

know everything, may not be omniscient, but Mahaprabhu could.

 

 

Similarly Madhvacarya wrote that the Gopis were mere apsaras. He had no respect for the Gopis and no knowledge of Goloka. But then he is also a Guru in the Guru Parampara of Srila Prabhupada. If the founders of the Sampradaya can have misunderstandings, then should we expect that Srila Prabhupada will be totally infallible?

[BhaktiK]

 

I'm sure if they 'proved' that Sridhara Maharaj contradicted himself you would accuse them of being 'cult' members on the mental platform.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj never claimed to be infallible.

 

He said:

 

 

Even an acarya should consider that he is a student, and not a finished professor who has everything. One should always think of himself as a bona fide student.

 

Sri Guru and His Grace pp.50-51

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Give me a break!! You're reading too much into my statements (or not enough).

 

cbrahma rails on and on about the false *ISKCON* gurus (while not acknowledging that there are many sincere servitors within ISKCON). I'm merely suggesting to him that, rather than acting as his own attorney, so to speak, that he seek some guidance from a good-hearted (if not completely pure) householder if he cannot bring himself to take shelter of a GBC-approved guru.

 

I *wish* I was half-baked at this point. I feel waaaay too sober.

 

 

You are clearly making the assumption that if one is a Gaudiya Vaisnava sannyasi is then they are automatically a false renunciate. I know that some people on this forum have said more or less the same thing openly that you are implying. But your guru is a sannyasi and so is your param guru and so is the maha param guru Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada. Be careful about making half-baked statements in the future. You are not seriously considering what you are saying and what are the ramifications of your words. Most of us on this forum are in the stage of sravana das or hearing, that is the main problem here on this forum. Very often those on all sides of issues either are uneducated in Gaudiya siddhanta or just not thinking and letting their emotions cloud their perception. It is possible to pick up some very bad habits on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions.

[Vedesu]

 

Are you sure you're not just jealous?

 

I take it you haven't read any of his writings on the internet, as they are perhaps the most offensive I've encountered towards Gaudiya Math sadhus, and that includes the s(p)ewage of so-called PADA. His brother Makanlal prabhu on the other hand, now there's a gentle, true-blue Prabhupada-only type who is non-offensive. Why recommend someone who constantly engages in horrific blasphemy of Vaishnavas? Trust me, no one here is jealous of NNV. And as far as his recent marriage, I seem to recall that about 15 years ago, he married a girl half his age. And that's fine and dandy. But when one notices an ongoing trend in this area, along with a penchant for rampant blasphemy, I find it difficult to recommend him to be anyone's guru.

 

BTW, the letter you referenced earlier was written to Vishvakarma das, who was formerly the TP of Toronto, not NNV.

[Beggar]

 

then should we expect that Srila Prabhupada will be totally infallible?

Part of it will be how you define the word infallible. One archaic and derivative meaning is one who doesn't fall. Do you think Srila Prabhupada is fallen? Is Madhvacarya fallen? Is Bramha vimohan lila there to illustrate that Lord Brahma is fallen in the true sense or is it a lila?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

f the founders of the Sampradaya can have misunderstandings, then should we expect that Srila Prabhupada will be totally infallible?

Now *there's* some food for thought.

 

Of course, as you say, we should show the acharyas all respect.

[BhaktiK]

I meant infallible as in the example of how the Pope is supposed to be infallible.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

OK. I concede the point and retract my recommendation. Makanlal Prabhu truly is a wonderful Vaishnava (and also like an uncle to me).

 

Let me simply say that I feel most fortunate to have been granted shelter by my Srila Gurudev, and I pray I can more closely follow his shining example.

 

Thanks for the clarification about the letter.

 

 

I take it you haven't read any of his writings on the internet, as they are perhaps the most offensive I've encountered towards Gaudiya Math sadhus, and that includes the s(p)ewage of so-called PADA. His brother Makanlal prabhu on the other hand, now there's a gentle, true-blue Prabhupada-only type who is non-offensive. Why recommend someone who constantly engages in horrific blasphemy of Vaishnavas? Trust me, no one here is jealous of NNV. And as far as his recent marriage, I seem to recall that about 15 years ago, he married a girl half his age. And that's fine and dandy. But when one notices an ongoing trend in this area, along with a penchant for rampant blasphemy, I find it difficult to recommend him to be anyone's guru.

 

BTW, the letter you referenced earlier was written to Vishvakarma das, who was formerly the TP of Toronto, not NNV.

[cbrahma]

 

Hypothetical possibilities and actual facts are two different things.

Present some facts, or otherwise your hypothetical situation is useless and meaningless and above all a cheap-shot.

The point I'm making is that regardless of the so-called facts the definition of offense is one-sided, stacked according to one's party loyalties.

[cbrahma]

Infallible is not the right word. Incorruptible I think is better.

According to Prabhupada, the diksa guru is supposed to take one back to Godhead (sounds like one fell down from there BTW).

If he has not achieved brahma bhuta, if he still has material desires and a tendency to fall down, they why hold on to him?

That's why Prabhupada claimed that a diksa guru should be uttama adhikari, pure devotee.

 

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.167, purport)

An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krishna consciousness.

...One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well towards the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.

[BhaktiK]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

We are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace, Om Vishnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacharya Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me...

 

I took his [sridhara Maharaja] advises [sic], instructions, very seriously because from the very beginning I know he is a pure Vaishnava, a pure devotee, and I wanted to associate with him and I tried to help him also. Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Sridhara Maharaja the head.

 

March 17, 1973