The Letter

[Guruvani]

 

Infallible is not the right word. Incorruptible I think is better.

According to Prabhupada, the diksa guru is supposed to take one back to Godhead (sounds like one fell down from there BTW).

If he has not achieved brahma bhuta, if he still has material desires and a tendency to fall down, they why hold on to him?

That's why Prabhupada claimed that a diksa guru should be uttama adhikari, pure devotee.

 

I didn't see "diksha-guru" specifically mentioned in that quote.

I saw "spiritual master".

Isn't the siksha guru also a spiritual master?

Since when is only a diksha-guru a spiritual master?

 

By the way, what Sanskrit words translate as "spiritual master".

 

What is the Sanskrit words for "spiritual" and the Sanskrit word for "master".

 

I am just curious.

 

Does anybody have an answer?

[suchandra]

 

I didn't see "diksha-guru" specifically mentioned in that quote.

I saw "spiritual master".

Isn't the siksha guru also a spiritual master?

Since when is only a diksha-guru a spiritual master?

 

By the way, what Sanskrit words translate as "spiritual master".

 

What is the Sanskrit words for "spiritual" and the Sanskrit word for "master".

 

I am just curious.

 

Does anybody have an answer?

 

Could be brahmana. Brahmanas are supposed to know what is brahman, spiritual.

[Guruvani]

 

Could be brahmana. Brahmanas are supposed to know what is brahman, spiritual.

 

What about "Goswami".

Master of the senses.

[cbrahma]

 

I didn't see "diksha-guru" specifically mentioned in that quote.

I saw "spiritual master".

Isn't the siksha guru also a spiritual master?

Since when is only a diksha-guru a spiritual master?

 

By the way, what Sanskrit words translate as "spiritual master".

 

What is the Sanskrit words for "spiritual" and the Sanskrit word for "master".

 

I am just curious.

 

Does anybody have an answer?

 

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 4.111

 

tanra thani mantra laila yatana karina

calila daksine puri tanre diksa dina

SYNONYMS

tanra thani -- from him; mantra -- initiation; laila -- accepted; yatana -- efforts; karina -- making; calila -- started; daksine -- toward the south; puri -- Madhavendra Puri; tanre -- to Him (Advaita Acarya); diksa -- initiation; dina -- giving.

TRANSLATION

Advaita Acarya begged to be initiated by Madhavendra Puri. After initiating Him, Madhavendra Puri started for South India.

PURPORT

In this connection, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments that Advaita Acarya took initiation from Madhavendra Puri, who was a sannyasi in the disciplic succession of the Madhva-sampradaya. According to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu:

kiba vipra kiba nyasi sudra kene naya,

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

"A person may be a brahmana, a sannyasi, a sudra or whatever, but if he is well conversant in the science of Krsna, he can become a guru." (Cc. 8.128) This statement is supported by Sri Madhavendra Puri. According to the pancaratra injunction, only a householder brahmana can initiate. Others cannot. When a person is initiated, it is assumed that he has become a brahmana; without being initiated by a proper brahmana, one cannot be converted into a brahmana. In other words, unless one is a brahmana, he cannot make another a brahmana. A grhastha-brahmana partaking of the varnasrama-dharma institution can secure various types of paraphernalia to worship Lord Visnu through his honest labor. Actually, people beg to be initiated by these householder brahmanas just to become successful in the varnasrama institution or to become free from material desires. It is therefore necessary for a spiritual master in the grhastha-asrama to be a strict Vaisnava. A spiritual master from the sannyasa order has very little opportunity to perform arcana, Deity worship, but when one accepts a spiritual master from the transcendental sannyasis, the principle of Deity worship is not at all neglected. To implement this conclusion, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave us His opinion in the verse kiba vipra kiba nyasi, etc. This indicates that the Lord understood the weakness of society in its maintaining that only a grhastha-brahmana should be a spiritual master. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu indicated that it does not matter whether the spiritual master is a grhastha (householder), a sannyasi or even a sudra. A spiritual master simply must be conversant in the essence of the sastra; he must understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Only then can one become a spiritual master. Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Infallible is not the right word. Incorruptible I think is better.

 

Ooooh! Very nice! I like!!!

[BhaktiK]

 

Prabhupada claimed that a diksa guru should be uttama adhikari, pure devotee.

 

So what do the words " His Divine Grace, Om Vishnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacharya" mean?

 

Paramahamsa - liberated sage

 

His Divine Grace - someone who comes down from the Divine Heavenly Abode

 

 

 

We are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace, Om Vishnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacharya Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me...

 

Some people say Prabhupada was just flattering Srila Sridhar Maharaj when he said he is "Paramahamsa". But that is a kind of insult to Prabhupada, to suggest he is a "flatterer".

[cbrahma]

 

So what do the words " His Divine Grace, Om Vishnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacharya" mean?

 

Paramahamsa - liberated sage

 

His Divine Grace - someone who comes down from the Divine Heavenly Abode

 

 

 

 

Some people say Prabhupada was just flattering Srila Sridhar Maharaj when he said he is "Paramahamsa". But that is a kind of insult to Prabhupada, to suggest he is a "flatterer".

I have no feelings about Sridhara Maharaja one way or another. He was 'of the Math' and I give that organization a wide berth considering its history.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I have no feelings about Sridhara Maharaja one way or another. He was 'of the Math' and I give that organization a wide berth considering its history.

 

Apparently, you have no feelings about Srila Prabhupada either.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

He was 'of the Math' and I give that organization a wide berth considering its history.

 

Almost none of us know anything about the "history" of the Math. All we know is rumours and innuendo.

[Guruvani]

 

Almost none of us know anything about the "history" of the Math. All we know is rumours and innuendo.

But, if we pretend we know so much about Gaudiya Matha then we can abuse the mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur and make a good excuse for our disrespectful attitude towards the real Vaishnavas while us pretenders play self-righteous and forthright.

 

Basically, what we have on a global scale with ISKCON and it's rejects is a crop of arrogant, bigoted upstarts who don't know near as much as they pretend to.

 

Mostly, what they know is just enough to get them in trouble and not enough to actually become the proper Vaishnava.

[BhaktiK]

 

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta

 

Ādi-līlā, Adi:10:7

 

vande śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-premāmara-taroḥ priyān

śākhā-rūpān bhakta-gaṇān kṛṣṇa-prema-phala-pradān

 

TRANSLATION

 

I offer my obeisances to all the dear devotees of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the eternal tree of love of Godhead. I offer my respects to all the branches of the tree, the devotees of the Lord who distribute the fruit of love of Kṛṣṇa.

 

PURPORT

 

Śrī Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī sets the example of offering obeisances to all the preacher devotees of Lord Caitanya, without distinction as to higher and lower. Unfortunately, at present there are many foolish so-called devotees of Lord Caitanya who make such distinctions. For example, the title “Prabhupāda” is offered to a spiritual master, especially to a distinguished spiritual master such as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī Prabhupāda, Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhupāda or Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Prabhupāda. When our disciples similarly wanted to address their spiritual master as Prabhupāda, some foolish people became envious. Not considering the propaganda work of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, simply because these disciples addressed their spiritual master as Prabhupāda they became so envious that they formed a faction along with other such envious persons just to minimize the value of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. To chastise such fools, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī very frankly says, keha karibāre nāre jyeṣṭha-laghu-krama. Anyone who is a bona fide preacher of the cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu must be respectful to the real devotees of Lord Caitanya; one should not be envious, considering one preacher to be very great and another to be very lowly. This is a material distinction and has no place on the platform of spiritual activities. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī therefore offers equal respect to all the preachers of the cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who are compared to the branches of the tree. ISKCON is one of these branches, and it should therefore be respected by all sincere devotees of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

 

Iskcon is one branch of the tree.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj's mission is another branch.

 

There are many other branches as well.

 

Live and let live.

 

When Madhava Maharaj and others criticized Iskcon devotees for calling Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as "Prabhupada" it was Srila Sridhar Maharaj who stopped that criticism. Srila Sridhar Maharaj said it was appropriate and perfectly fine for the Iskcon devotees to say that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is "Prabhupada".

 

Further to that, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has said "Jaya Om Visnupada ... Sridhar Maharaj".

 

For those who don't realise it, Om Visnupada is an even higher title than Prabhupada. The word Prabhupada means someone who sits at the feet of "Prabhu". In other words, Prabhupada means someone who sits at the feet of their Gurudev. Whereas Om Visnupada means someone who sits at Visnu's feet - such as Lakshmi Devi and other eternal associates.

[Guruvani]

 

Iskcon is one branch of the tree.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj's mission is another branch.

 

There are many other branches as well.

 

Live and let live.

 

 

ISKCON is one of these branches, and it should therefore be respected by all sincere devotees of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

 

But, respect is a two way street.

How could Srila Prabhupada expect ISKCON to be respected by his Godbrothers if he taught his followers to disrespect his Godbrothers?

 

It just doesn't jive that Srila Prabhupada is demanding that his Godbrothers respect ISKCON and his disciples and at the same time is training his disciples in an offensive attitude towards the Godbrothers.

 

This is just one of the examples of how Srila Prabhupada was somewhat inigmatic in his words, leaving many lost souls in limbo with their mouth hanging open trying to sort it all out.

[BhaktiK]

cbrahma seems to be an example of this

 

There are ten offenses against the Holy Name mentioned in the Padma Purana and the first offence is: satam ninda-namnah param aparadham vitanute

TRANSLATION:

To criticize the pure devotees.

 

What sort of devotee is Srila Sridhar Maharaj?

 

Srila Prabhupada said:

 

I took his [sridhara Maharaja] advises [sic], instructions, very seriously because from the very beginning I know he is a pure Vaishnava, a pure devotee, and I wanted to associate with him and I tried to help him also. Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gaudiya Matha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Sridhara Maharaja the head.

[Guruvani]

 

 

What sort of devotee is Srila Sridhar Maharaj?

 

Srila Prabhupada said:

These references to the statements of Srila Prabhupada have no weight with those who have already made their minds up.

 

cBrahma started this topic THE LETTER thinking that he could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Srila Prabhupada has damned and condemned Srila Sridhar Maharaja forever irrevocably.

 

Sound rebuttles to his presentation have no influence on him, because at this point his pride and ego are on the line and he doesn't appear to be willing to admit that he might be wrong.

 

I don't know what drives a person like him.

He bashes ISKCON, he bashes Sridhar Maharaja and all the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada and seems to present himself as puritanistic adherent to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Personally, I think he is just looking for an excuse to disrespect everyone and everything except his fantastic idea about Srila Prabhupada being the sole acharya and Vaishnava of the modern age.

 

I think he just wants an excuse to justify why he can't and won't humble himself before anyone except his make believe version of Srila Prabhupada - the Superman of bhakti.

 

If this is what he thinks Srila Prabhupada taught and stood for then he is miserably wrong, very foolish and self-deceived.

[cbrahma]

 

These references to the statements of Srila Prabhupada have no weight with those who have already made their minds up.

 

cBrahma started this topic THE LETTER thinking that he could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Srila Prabhupada has damned and condemned Srila Sridhar Maharaja forever irrevocably.

 

Sound rebuttles to his presentation have no influence on him, because at this point his pride and ego are on the line and he doesn't appear to be willing to admit that he might be wrong.

 

I don't know what drives a person like him.

He bashes ISKCON, he bashes Sridhar Maharaja and all the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada and seems to present himself as puritanistic adherent to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Personally, I think he is just looking for an excuse to disrespect everyone and everything except his fantastic idea about Srila Prabhupada being the sole acharya and Vaishnava of the modern age.

 

I think he just wants an excuse to justify why he can't and won't humble himself before anyone except his make believe version of Srila Prabhupada - the Superman of bhakti.

 

If this is what he thinks Srila Prabhupada taught and stood for then he is miserably wrong, very foolish and self-deceived.

There are many devotees who think this way and not just from ISKCON. You don't seem to be concerned about bashing ISKCON in any case. I can quote many people on this forum in agreement on that subject. And as far as the presumption of 'proving' is concerned that begs the question.

That you decide the case is beyond question because your evidence is undefeatable could easily be attributable to hubris.

[cbrahma]

 

Apparently, you have no feelings about Srila Prabhupada either.

How did you leap to that conclusion?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

How did you leap to that conclusion?

It's no leap.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja was by all accounts very dear to Srila Prabhupada. How dear to you can Srila Prabhupada be if you have no affection--or at least appreciation--for those whom Srila Prabhupada considered his dear friends and siksha gurus?

[cbrahma]

 

It's no leap.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja was by all accounts very dear to Srila Prabhupada. How dear to you can Srila Prabhupada be if you have no affection--or at least appreciation--for those whom Srila Prabhupada considered his dear friends and siksha gurus?

That's convoluted logic. It is not at all clear that Prabhupada insisted on his disciples seeking out Sridar Maharaja with all such affection. If it were there would be NO evidence against such a presupposition.

[cbrahma]

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/vada/blog/questions.htm]

Vaisnava history tells us that after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s departure, His senior disciples decided to reinstate the guru parampara. Narayana Maharaja’s own Spiritual Master, along with his fellow Gaudiya Matha spiritual masters, re-instituted the concept of guru parampara – but they did not do so on the authorization of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. In fact, they reinstated a guru parampara system that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had essentially rejected.

 

[Guruvani]

 

That's convoluted logic. It is not at all clear that Prabhupada insisted on his disciples seeking out Sridar Maharaja with all such affection. If it were there would be NO evidence against such a presupposition.

 

The guru can't mandate love of anyone or anything.

Those who admire Srila Sridhar Maharaja are the ones who gave him the respect to at least hear what he had to say.

They developed faith and admiration by hearing from him, not because they think Srila Prabhupada mandated it.

 

It's just stupid to think that anyone loves Srila Sridhar Maharaja because "Srila Prabhupada said".

[cbrahma]

 

The guru can't mandate love of anyone or anything.

Those who admire Srila Sridhar Maharaja are the ones who gave him the respect to at least hear what he had to say.

They developed faith and admiration by hearing from him, not because they think Srila Prabhupada mandated it.

 

It's just stupid to think that anyone loves Srila Sridhar Maharaja because "Srila Prabhupada said".

That doesn't address the statement that I don't have any feelings for Prabhupada previously made.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

That's convoluted logic. It is not at all clear that Prabhupada insisted on his disciples seeking out Sridar Maharaja with all such affection. If it were there would be NO evidence against such a presupposition.

 

You've petulantly ignored the ample evidence provided by BhaktiK and others here.

 

Srila Prabhupada was very kind. He insisted on almost nothing. He *invited* us to join in the Sankirttan Movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu to the extent that we had capacity to do so. As was his own Guru Maharaja's mood, he was so very accomodating.

 

You, however insist on playing the fool.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

That doesn't address the statement that I don't have any feelings for Prabhupada previously made.

 

Yes, but Guruvani goes to the heart of the matter (which you seem so desperate to avoid).

 

If one has any sincerity and taste and listens to what Srila Sridhar Maharaja has to say, it's simply *impossible* to *not* be captivated by his beautiful expression of the Krishna Conception.

[Guruvani]

 

That doesn't address the statement that I don't have any feelings for Prabhupada previously made.

 

Well, I am not going to address the point because I am not the one who made the allegations.

I assume you have great respect and appreciation for Srila Prabhupada.

It appears though that you might be quite fanatic about it and minimizing other Vaishnavas because you think Srila Prabhupada is the only real Vaishnava.

 

When I heard the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja I had never heard any statements about Sridhar Maharaja one way or the other.

I was just a small-time brahmachary in the Chicago ISKCON temple.

 

By the time I had heard the statements of Srila Prabhupada about Sridhar Maharaja I had already developed an appreciation for Sridhar Maharaja and I just ignored whatever Srila Prabhupada said because my heart told me different.

I follow my heart.

I don't follow the mandates of anyone who trys to tell me who I can love and who I can't.

I reject that concept wholesale.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Bravo!! As has been said before: Krishna Consciousness is a "transaction of the heart".

 

 

Well, I am not going to address the point because I am not the one who made the allegations.

I assume you have great respect and appreciation for Srila Prabhupada.

It appears though that you might be quite fanatic about it and minimizing other Vaishnavas because you think Srila Prabhupada is the only real Vaishnava.

 

When I heard the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja I had never heard any statements about Sridhar Maharaja one way or the other.

I was just a small-time brahmachary in the Chicago ISKCON temple.

 

By the time I had heard the statements of Srila Prabhupada about Sridhar Maharaja I had already developed an appreciation for Sridhar Maharaja and I just ignored whatever Srila Prabhupada said because my heart told me different.

I follow my heart.

I don't follow the mandates of anyone who trys to tell me who I can love and who I can't.

I reject that concept wholesale.