How Fortunate I Am!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

This morning, as I went into the bathroom to get the kids out of the bath (too late, I'm ashamed to say, for them to have a proper breakfast), they were arguing over whether Gurudev is everywhere.

 

My 5 year-old daughter was arguing that Gurudev *is* everywhere, while my 7 year-old son argued that he is not.

 

Chuckling, I explained to them that, in a sense, they are *both* right. Sri Guru is everywhere, while Gurudev is in London, England at present (though, no doubt, he is firmly established in the hearts of his sincere servitors scattered about the globe).

[Beggar]

Dash-Vidha-Nama-Aparadha

 

 

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar-dev Govinda Maharaj

Verse 3

 

"guru krishnarup han sashtrer pramane

gururupe krishna kripa kore bhagyavane"

se gurute marttya-budhi avajñadi tyaji

ishtalabh koro, nirantara nam bhaji

 

 

Krishna appears to us in the form of Sri Guru and this is evidenced in all the scriptures. In this form of Sri Guru, Krishna bestows his mercy on the fortunate souls. Therefore, one should never consider the sat Guru to be an ordinary person. Serving him will fulfill all of our spiritual desires.

 

 

 

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Narayana Maharaja, 6/20/06, San Jose, CA:

"Some think that Guru is not omniscient. They ask: “If Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada knew that practically all his sannyasis would fall down, why did he give them sannyasa? They are wrong to doubt. Lord Ramacandra knew that Sita would be stolen, so why did He go running after that deer? Krsna knew everything. He knew that His dynasty would be destroyed by becoming intoxicated on rice wine and killing each other. Why did He not stop this from happening?

Don’t think that Guru is not omniscient. Guru always remembers Krsna and Krsna is with him. Srila Suta Gosvami has said, “My Guru, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, knows everything.” If you do not reconcile this, you will have some doubt in Guru. Guru is omniscient, but Guru should be bona fide. Try to follow my instructions and be happy."

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Guru incarnate is *omnipresent* (I never said anything about omniscient)?

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja, 6/20/06, San Jose, CA:

"Some think that Guru is not omniscient. They ask: “If Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada knew that practically all his sannyasis would fall down, why did he give them sannyasa? They are wrong to doubt. Lord Ramacandra knew that Sita would be stolen, so why did He go running after that deer? Krsna knew everything. He knew that His dynasty would be destroyed by becoming intoxicated on rice wine and killing each other. Why did He not stop this from happening?

Don’t think that Guru is not omniscient. Guru always remembers Krsna and Krsna is with him. Srila Suta Gosvami has said, “My Guru, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, knows everything.” If you do not reconcile this, you will have some doubt in Guru. Guru is omniscient, but Guru should be bona fide. Try to follow my instructions and be happy."

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Guru incarnate is *omnipresent* (I never said anything about omniscient)?

You did not have to make the correlation between omnipresence and omniscience. Every theologian in every monotheistic religion already has done it for you.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

You did not have to make the correlation between omnipresence and omniscience. Every theologian in every monotheistic religion already has done it for you.

 

I missed that. Citation please?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I missed that. Citation please?

 

Better yet, why not ask Sripad Narayana Maharaja, since he's standing right in front of you?

[Shakti-Fan]

Let's use the analogy of the Sun and the Sun rays. For the sake of analogy let's say that the Sun is made up of infinite Sun rays. The secondary characteristic of Sun rays is that they contain both heat and light. This heat and light pervades the solar system to various degrees. If we can detect even the faintest sunlight in the furthest out regions then we can also detect heat however minuscule. Here the analogy begins to break down because infinite consciousness does not dissipate. Everything exists within the realm of consciousness, so omnipresence takes place by the conscious Will of the Lord. Sva bhavaki jnana kriya ca. When the Lord, His expansions or representations are omnipresent are they suddenly devoid of consciousness in deference to your philosophical misconceptions?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Better yet, why not ask Sripad Narayana Maharaja, since he's standing right in front of you?

While you're at it, why not ask him who's going to win the Dolphin's game this weekend (bad example, one doesn't need to be omniscient to know the answer to *that* question )?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Is this a citation? I asked for a citation. Just one (from "[e]very theologian in every monotheistic religion") will suffice.

 

You've cited yourself, so far.

 

 

Let's use the analogy of the Sun and the Sun rays. For the sake of analogy let's say that the Sun is made up of infinite Sun rays. The secondary characteristic of Sun rays is that they contain both heat and light. This heat and light pervades the solar system to various degrees. If we can detect even the faintest sunlight in the furthest out regions then we can also detect heat however minuscule. Here the analogy begins to break down because infinite consciousness does not dissipate. Everything exists within the realm of consciousness, so omnipresence takes place by the conscious Will of the Lord. Sva bhavaki jnana kriya ca. When the Lord, His expansions or representations are omnipresent are they suddenly devoid of consciousness in deference to your philosophical misconceptions?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Dash-Vidha-Nama-Aparadha

 

 

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar-dev Govinda Maharaj

Verse 3

 

"guru krishnarup han sashtrer pramane

gururupe krishna kripa kore bhagyavane"

se gurute marttya-budhi avajñadi tyaji

ishtalabh koro, nirantara nam bhaji

 

 

Krishna appears to us in the form of Sri Guru and this is evidenced in all the scriptures. In this form of Sri Guru, Krishna bestows his mercy on the fortunate souls. Therefore, one should never consider the sat Guru to be an ordinary person. Serving him will fulfill all of our spiritual desires.

 

 

 

 

In His form of Sri Guru, the form by which Krishna bestows his mercy...He is omnipresent but not conscious and therefore omniscient? Impossible! This has nothing to do with different gurus.

 

 

Abhay Charan Das [early name of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada]

For Members, Sri Gaudiya Math

Bombay, Published in The Harmonist 1936,

 

 

Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva,we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else's.

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forrns to teach you, me and all others.

 

[Shakti-Fan]

If you told any professor of religious philosophy, ontological philosophy, or theology that an aspect of the infinite consciousness could be all pervading without being all knowing, you'd be laughed out of the classroom. If the professor was polite maybe he wouldn't laugh but he would certainly check to see if you had passed Introduction to Philosophy with a grade of C or better.

Omniscience and omnipresence are concomitant by definition. If you want to take the time to search for citations from theologians then do it. BTW I am a Raiders fan and I live in the Black Hole. It's that idiot Beggar who likes the Dolphins.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Go back and read my original post. I, in effect, said that same thing that Srila Prabhupada is saying, namely, Sri Guru is omnipresent, but that one particular (sweet, sweet) *form* of Sri Guru, Srila Gurudev, is presently in London, England.

 

Are you saying that each form of Sri Guru is omnipresent, or are you just confused about what I was saying?

 

 

In His form of Sri Guru, the form by which Krishna bestows his mercy...He is omnipresent but not conscious and therefore omniscient? Impossible! This has nothing to do with different gurus.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

See, this is where I disagree with you and Sripad Narayana Maharaja.

 

The acharya, as representitive of Sri Guru, is *not* omniscient. Only Sri Krishna Himself is omniscient. Being a surrendered servitor of the Lord, and a perfect hearer of Paramatma, the acharya can have any knowledge revealed in his/her heart by the Lord, but that does not mean that the acharya has access (or would even wish to) to any particular bit of mundane trivia.

 

Rather, the acharya, knows that knowledge which is *essential*.

 

So, if I do not grant you the acharya's omniscience, then you cannot presume omnipresence.

 

 

If you told any professor of religious philosophy, ontological philosophy, or theology that an aspect of the infinite consciousness could be all pervading without being all knowing, you'd be laughed out of the classroom. If the professor was polite maybe he wouldn't laugh but he would certainly check to see if you had passed Introduction to Philosophy with a grade of C or better.

Omniscience and omnipresence are concomitant by definition. If you want to take the time to search for citations from theologians then do it. BTW I am a Raiders fan and I live in the Black Hole. It's that idiot Beggar who likes the Dolphins.

[theist]

Krsna is everything. Guru knows Krsna. In that way guru knows everything.

 

To think that guru knows everything about everything (Krsna) is foolish.

 

"...but Me no one knows."

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Krsna is everything. Guru knows Krsna. In that way guru knows everything.

 

To think that guru knows everything about everything (Krsna) is foolish.

 

"...but Me no one knows."

theist gets it, while Shakti-Fan begs the question.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

In any case, I had only hoped to share a touching moment from my family life, not start a raging debate.

 

Of course, as I've rained on others' parades often enough, it is only fitting that my parade get rained upon.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

See, this is where I disagree with you and Sripad Narayana Maharaja.

 

Actually, I don't think I'm even disagreeing with Sripad Narayana Maharaja, simply your interpretation of his words.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Also, I don't believe I ever said that I see Srila Gurudev as an "ordinary" person. He is certainly most extraordinary!!

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Are you saying that each form of Sri Guru is omnipresent, or are you just confused about what I was saying?

 

Sridhar Maharaja, "There is the absolute and relative consideration, everywhere."

 

Guru is always seen from the viewpoint of the absolute except in the case of rendering a specific service. In that case the absolute viewpoint is put into the background. But generally we should think that Krsna, guru, and paramatma are everywhere and know everything. It's an example of subjective reality in relation to the super-subjective reality. We are the objects and He is the subject and He is seeing through the diety, Sri Murti, Sri Gurudeva, and Caitya guru. This is from the viewpoint of the disciple, only. The guru will think that, "I am only a madhyama adhikari but by the grace of my uttama adhikari guru, I have the backing of akanda guru tattva, Sri Nityananda Prabhu. In this way everything is harmonized. Different acaryas are using different words to describe the same thing. It is us, with our "puppy brains" who cannot understand and see sectarian differences.

 

Govinda Maharaja, "Krishna appears to us in the form of Sri Guru..."

 

Prabhupada, "...for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva,we speak of something that is of universal application."

 

Narayana Maharaja, "Don’t think that Guru is not omniscient. Guru always remembers Krsna and Krsna is with him."

 

Prabhupada, purport C.C. Adi 7.115

"In this connection the Padma Purana states, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih: "One who considers the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Visnu, to be stone, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TO BE AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, and a Vaisnava to belong to a particular caste or creed, is possessed of HELLISH INTELLIGENCE." One who follows such conclusions is doomed"

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Nice evasion, but the acharya can be extraordinary without being omnipresent. The first is not contingent upon the second.

 

If Srila Gurudev is omnipresent, then there is certainly no need (or incentive) for me to go to Navadvip for his Sri Vyasa Puja, right?

 

You're blowing smoke, didi.

 

 

Sridhar Maharaja, "There is the absolute and relative consideration, everywhere."

 

Guru is always seen from the viewpoint of the absolute except in the case of rendering a specific service. In that case the absolute viewpoint is put into the background. But generally we should think that Krsna, guru, and paramatma are everywhere and know everything. It's an example of subjective reality in relation to the super-subjective reality. We are the objects and He is the subject and He is seeing through the diety, Sri Murti, Sri Gurudeva, and Caitya guru. This is from the viewpoint of the disciple, only. The guru will think that, "I am only a madhyama adhikari but by the grace of my uttama adhikari guru, I have the backing of akanda guru tattva, Sri Nityananda Prabhu. In this way everything is harmonized. Different acaryas are using different words to describe the same thing. It is us, with our "puppy brains" who cannot understand and see sectarian differences.

 

Govinda Maharaja, "Krishna appears to us in the form of Sri Guru..."

 

Prabhupada, "...for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva,we speak of something that is of universal application."

 

Narayana Maharaja, "Don’t think that Guru is not omniscient. Guru always remembers Krsna and Krsna is with him."

 

Prabhupada, purport C.C. Adi 7.115

"In this connection the Padma Purana states, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih: "One who considers the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Visnu, to be stone, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TO BE AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, and a Vaisnava to belong to a particular caste or creed, is possessed of HELLISH INTELLIGENCE." One who follows such conclusions is doomed"

[Murali_Mohan_das]

If any form of Guru is the same any other, then it makes no difference whether I sit at the feet of Srila Gurudev, or Sripad Narayana Maharaja, or Sripad Tripurari Maharaja, or...

[Beggar]

Sri Guru and His Grace

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

 

Krsna tells us not to particularize in one point (acaryam mam vijaniyan ). There are so many siksa gurus in the line, and it is our good fortune to see more gurus, to come to the stage where we see gurus everywhere. Everywhere we shall try to draw the hints of the auspicious presence of Godhead. Krsna says, "One who can see me everywhere, and everything in me is never lost to Me, nor I to him (yo mam pasyati sarvatra, sarvam ca mayi pasyati ). We shall try to see Him in every medium. Then our position is safe. Not to see guru is a dangerous position. But if we can see guru everywhere, advising us to concentrate our energy towards the service of God, then we'll be safe. Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him."

[Beggar]

 

If any form of Guru is the same any other, then it makes no difference whether I sit at the feet of Srila Gurudev, or Sripad Narayana Maharaja, or Sripad Tripurari Maharaja, or...

Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him."

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Beggar, you and your wife are still evading the question. Everything you've quoted can be true *in addition* to the fact that Srila Gurudev is in London right now. Can you show me how (aside from being in the heart of his devotees, and string theory) that Srila Gurudev (the divine person incarnate) is omnipresent?