How Fortunate I Am!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

How fortunate I am that persons such as beggar and Shakti-Fan keep me from becoming complacent in my reveries!!

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Beggar, you and your wife are still evading the question. Everything you've quoted can be true *in addition* to the fact that Srila Gurudev is in London right now. Can you show me how (aside from being in the heart of his devotees, and string theory) that Srila Gurudev (the divine person incarnate) is omnipresent?

 

Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him."

You see it as evading the question because no one can apply the above principle for you, you have to do it yourself. But the problem for all of us is that we are not really following trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena... Srila Prabhupada,

So Caitanya Mahaprabhu, maha-vadanyavatara, He is patita-pavana. He is the deliverer of all the fallen souls. He has given us this much tapasya prescription. Tapasya must be there. And that is very easy to be done by us. It is not very difficult. One has to become very humble. That is the first qualification. Trnad api sunicena. Sunicena means lower than the grass. Just like we trample over the grass; they do not protest. Trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna. And tolerant, humbler than the grass and tolerant than the tree. A tree gives us all benefit, but in return we give the tree so much trouble. We snatch away the twigs, we snatch away the leaves. Sometimes for our fuel we cut down. But there is no protest. So these things have been taught by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena. Nobody should think himself that he is very prestigious person, falsely. Nobody is prestigious. Everyone should be humble. So these three, four things we should learn, and that is tapasya. And we should avoid the sinful activities, namely, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. These are some of the positive and negative formulas given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And if we follow this tapasya and chant Hare Krsna, then our life is successful.

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

How is it lack of humility to point out that Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not accept "yatha math, tatha path" (and, by extention "yatha guru, tatha guru")?

 

More evasions. You're wrong. I say that with all humility .

 

 

You see it as evading the question because no one can apply the above principle for you, you have to do it yourself. But the problem for all of us is that we are not really following trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena... Srila Prabhupada,

 

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

How is it lack of humility to point out that Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not accept "yatha math, tatha path" (and, by extention "yatha guru, tatha guru")?

 

More evasions. You're wrong. I say that with all humility .

 

You don't get it. When you see the absolute conception of guru you think that it negates the relative consideration. That's why it is said that spiritual life is a razors edge. Harmony and balance are synonymous. Such balance takes practice and with addition of grace. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him." This is the absolute conception of guru. "Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help." This is the relative conception of guru, they are only mutually exclusive in your mind. There is nothing further that anyone can say, except for more details. But this is the truth coming from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. You have become conditioned by some of your association to attack an idea based entirely on the source of that thought and that it is the real reason that I brought this up. I laid out the bate and you took it. This is exactly the reason the Sleepervadis and Fallvadis attack Srila Sridhar Maharaja's explanation of the origin of the soul. Such irrational thought does not constitute loyalty to one's guru but rather it is the most kanistha, neophyte fanaticism. It leads to party spirit and it ruins the entire atmosphere. I think when you really have the time you should go back and carefully look at the posts and counter posts on this thread. Meanwhile we are wasting time while we are again being attacked by a squadron of Sleepervadi Zeros!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Whatever you say. You've also not addressed many of my *practical* considerations here.

 

In terms of our practicing life, it's *useful* to think of Srila Gurudev (if not Sri Guru) as being localized. It makes making travel plans for pilgrimage much simpler, for instance.

 

I told my kids they were both, in a sense, right. What's wrong with that?

 

It seems like you're being argumentitive for the the sake of argumentation. Perhaps, in his depression over the Dolphins, your husband has been neglecting you and you're chosing to take out your frustrations on me?

 

 

You don't get it. When you see the absolute conception of guru you think that it negates the relative consideration. That's why it is said that spiritual life is a razors edge. Harmony and balance are synonymous. Such balance takes practice and with addition of grace. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him." This is the absolute conception of guru. "Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help." This is the relative conception of guru, they are only mutually exclusive in your mind. There is nothing further that anyone can say, except for more details. But this is the truth coming from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. You have become conditioned by some of your association to attack an idea based entirely on the source of that thought and that it is the real reason that I brought this up. I laid out the bate and you took it. This is exactly the reason the Sleepervadis and Fallvadis attack Srila Sridhar Maharaja's explanation of the origin of the soul. Such irrational thought does not constitute loyalty to one's guru but rather it is the most kanistha, neophyte fanaticism. It leads to party spirit and it ruins the entire atmosphere. I think when you really have the time you should go back and carefully look at the posts and counter posts on this thread. Meanwhile we are wasting time while we are again being attacked by a squadron of Sleepervadi Zeros!

[Beggar]

Shakti-fan and Beggars Fight:

Tramp!

What you call me?

Tramp.

You didn't!

You don't wear continental clothes, or silk kurtas.

Well I tell you one dog-gone thing. It makes me feel good to know one thing. I know I'm a bhakta.

Matter of opinion.

That's all right, Mama was. Papa too. And I'm the only child. Maya is all I know to do.

You know what, Beggar?

What?

You're country.

That's all right.

You straight from the Bengali woods.

That's good.

You know what? You wear overalls, and big old brogan shoes, and you need a haircut, Tramp.

Haircut? didi you foolin'...ooh...I'm a bhakta, Mama was. Grandmama, Papa too. Boogaloo. All that stuff. And I'm the only son-of-a-gun this side of the Sun. Tramp!

You know what, Beggar? I don't care what you say, you're still a tramp.

What?

That's right. You haven't even got a fat bankroll in your pocket. You probably haven't even got twenty-five cents.

I got six Mercedes, five Lincolns, four Ford Fusions, six Mercuries, three Hummers, Mustang, ooooooohhh...I'm a aspiring bhakta. Mama was. Papa too. I tell you one thing.

Well tell me.

I'm the only son-of-a-gun this side of the Sun.

You're a tramp, Beggar.

No I'm not.

I don't care what you say, you're still a tramp.

What's wrong with that?

Look here. You ain't got no money.

I got everything.

You can't buy me all those silk saris and bangles and all that stuff I want.

I can buy you comcast cable, a new bead bag ...anything you want, didi

Look, you can go out in the Bengali woods and find them, Swami.

Oh, you foolin'.

You're still a tramp.

That's all right.

You a tramp, Beggar. You just a tramp.

That's all right.

You wear overalls. You need a haircut, Baby. Cut off some of that hair off your head. You think you a bhakta, huh?

[mahak]

To a disciple, guru is never away fro a moment. Even If a disciples guru disappears from the biology of the world, the presence is there. The vyasasana of the heart, is what I have called it over the years. Paramatma for the Vaisnava is Guru, Chaita guru, which also includes all whom chaita guru empowers to act in his service, inspired to approach a "sleeper" (dont get bent, folks) who may be stirring from slumber.

 

Omnipresence is Lord Paramatma. Guru is linked to Paramatma, so omnipresence can be claimed.

 

Omniscience cannot. Krsna tells Arjuna, "I remember all, you dont". Arjuna thinks Nara was someone else. Ramananda Raya is not a bowman. But Krsna is fully omniscient and recollects intimacy with nara and arjuna and ramananda raya simultaneously.

 

One must be careful in applying false attributes. It serves no purpose to think that Prabhupada knows your next move. All it does is makes you lose faith in him because he entrusted one who burned him as well as us. Gotta bring it up again, probably my most often used mahaksadasa quote (meaning no veda base reference) in discussion with my friends who are of rtvik persuasion. He stated, "I am not perfect, I am but an old man. But I am repeating this perfect science perfectly, and this is my perfection".

 

Dont set yourself for a future fall into despondency. Dont make Jesus into His Father, because in doing so, you will lose the flavor of relationship, you lose bhakti yoga. Prabhupada is not Krsna, not omnescient, but he is fully with him at all times, so when we meditate on Krsna, we can also acknowledge this relationship between Sri Guru and Sri gauranga.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Omnipresence is Lord Paramatma. Guru is linked to Paramatma, so omnipresence can be claimed.

 

Omniscience is Lord Paramatma. Guru is linked to Paramatma, so omniscience can be claimed.

This is from the absolute viewpoint; seeing the guru as saksadhari, directly Hari. Seeing the guru as an individual person is the relative conception. The entire phenomena is inconceivable, so it is nothing to argue over. When we argue about this we just quibble over semantics. The problem is that often times the semantical debate becomes a debate about supposed differences between gurus. There are differences between individual gurus, but guru is one. Krsna is the real guru. If He's behind everything then He is certainly behind the bonafide guru. The real guru is Krsna's devotee so He maintains what His devotee has and provides what His devotee lacks. The pure devotee guru knows everything that he needs to know about the advancement or lack of, of his disciple. If we don't have this faith then we cannot proceed on this path.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Please accept my obeisances, Shakti-Fan Didi and Mahaksa Prabhu!!

 

I just can't get over the fact my kids (or those devas I *call* my kids) were arguing over *this* in the bath and not Pokemon!!!

 

I'm lucky to have their association as I'm lucky to have yours!

 

 

Omniscience is Lord Paramatma. Guru is linked to Paramatma, so omniscience can be claimed.

This is from the absolute viewpoint; seeing the guru as saksadhari, directly Hari. Seeing the guru as an individual person is the relative conception. The entire phenomena is inconceivable, so it is nothing to argue over. When we argue about this we just quibble over semantics. The problem is that often times the semantical debate becomes a debate about supposed differences between gurus. There are differences between individual gurus, but guru is one. Krsna is the real guru. If He's behind everything then He is certainly behind the bonafide guru. The real guru is Krsna's devotee so He maintains what His devotee has and provides what His devotee lacks. The pure devotee guru knows everything that he needs to know about the advancement or lack of, of his disciple. If we don't have this faith then we cannot proceed on this path.

[gHari]

 

[...]

I just can't get over the fact my kids (or those devas I *call* my kids) were arguing over *this* in the bath and not Pokemon!!!

[...]

Yes, that is what impressed me, almost bringing a tear to the eye as I imagined the conversation. It is such a wonderful way to start a life. You must be doing a good job, Dad. Prabhupada was still, seventy years later, so thankful that his dear father had given him Jagannatha Ratha-Yatra as a childhood playtime pastime.

[theist]

The father's hope is that his children become pure devotees. That is also the guru's hope for the disciple. Awesome responsibility, nuturing and protecting the consciousness of those that Krsna has placed in your care.

 

Sounds as though they are off to a great start. There may be hope for you yet Murali. If they become liberated in Krsna consciousness they will carry you back home as well.

[CCC]

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Letter to Rupanuga Dasa, 3 July 1968:

"Yes, those twelve symptoms of the spiritual soul are correct, except for "all-knowing." All-knowing it cannot be, but full of knowledge."

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Mayapur morning walk, April 8, 1975: Jayadvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is...

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then...

Jayadvaita: ...an imperfection.

Prabhupada: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Mayapur morning walk, April 8, 1975: Jayadvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is...

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then...

Jayadvaita: ...an imperfection.

Prabhupada: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.

Srila Prabhupada was and is omniscient in the sense that everything he needs to know is revealed to him by Krsna, or his expansion Nityananda Prabhu. Here we see him in his humility. He is posing as a madhyama adhikari guru for instructing purposes but actually he is an uttama adhikari. Akhanda guru tattva knows everything. Whether the person who appeared in Calcutta in 1896 and was the son of Gour Mohan De, actually knew or knows everything is a different question. Remember he was an shakyavesa avatar of Lord Nityananda. The spreading of Krsna Consciousness all over the world was a very mystical event. When Srila Prabhupada told that man in New York in 1966, "I have 108 temples all over the world, but this is just seperated by time", do you think that he was just practicing positive thinking?

[Beggar]

 

Is this a citation?

 

Citations are hard to find on the internet, but here is one for you, read the quote. I did the work for Shakti-fan who is sleeping on the job.

"Modern Cosmology: God and the Resurrection of the Dead"

<center> by </center> <center> Professor Wolfhart Pannenberg, D.D., D.D., D.D.

Institute for Fundamental Theology

University of Munich</center>

 

...With this, Tipler combines the fundamental assertations of the traditional Christian doctrine on God: omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence are closely related to the idea of an ultimate future as a place of maximum information. In his argument, Tipler correctly takes exemption from a conception of God as mind according to the model of our human mind, because "a mind similar to our human mind is a manifestation of an extremely low level of information processing". God's omniscience surpasses the forms of our knowledge and is to be connected, rather, with his omnipresence. In speaking of God's omniscience, the meaning is, that everything is and remains present to God. For the Omega point in its capacity as ultimate limit of timespace is immanent in each point of timespace, but also transcending it. That was emphasized in classical Christian theology in the idea of God's omnipresence. But also the ideas of omnipotence and eternity of God imply the unity of immanence and transcendence. Tipler is justified to consider God's eternity not as atemporal in contrast to all forms of time, which would be to conceive it in terms of a onesided transcendence, but following Boethius he conceives of eternity as unlimited possession of everything that is temporally distinct in our human experience, but is perceived by God within one encompassing presence.

[Beggar]

Symbiotic Panentheism: Simply put, Abstract, and Synopsis by Daniel J. Shepard

 

Part 2. God and Panentheism

1. Physical reality exists.

2. The initiating force - causative factor - of physical reality is "God."

3. God is omnipresent; as such, all things are in God, including our known physical reality.

4. God is bigger than physical reality.

5. God is omnipotent; God has the power to create new, original knowledge.

6. God is omniscient; God knows how to create more knowledge. God cannot create new, creative, untainted knowledge within Itself.

7. God is omnipresent; God cannot create outside Itself.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

No one has been arguing that God is not omniscient. Omniscience is part of the *definition* of God (whether one believes in God or not).

 

Are you saying God and Guru are one and the same (not achintya bedhabed)?

 

If so, you're becoming a vardi.

 

 

Symbiotic Panentheism: Simply put, Abstract, and Synopsis by Daniel J. Shepard

 

Part 2. God and Panentheism

1. Physical reality exists.

2. The initiating force - causative factor - of physical reality is "God."

3. God is omnipresent; as such, all things are in God, including our known physical reality.

4. God is bigger than physical reality.

5. God is omnipotent; God has the power to create new, original knowledge.

6. God is omniscient; God knows how to create more knowledge. God cannot create new, creative, untainted knowledge within Itself.

7. God is omnipresent; God cannot create outside Itself.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

No one has been arguing that God is not omniscient. Omniscience is part of the *definition* of God (whether one believes in God or not).

 

Are you saying God and Guru are one and the same (not achintya bedhabed)?

 

If so, you're becoming a vardi.

 

 

Beggar and I are discussing a side issue, whether or not anything in existence can be omnipresent without also being omniscient. As far as the guru issue is concerned, no one has ever put forth the idea that guru is omnipresent but he's not omniscient. Because if you accept that everything is conscious, it is a simple logical deduction that the infinite is both omnipresent and omniscient. Those who believe that guru is not omniscient don't turn around and then assert that he is omnipresent. That would be like saying, "he's in the heart of all his followers, but doesn't know their inner desires." If that were true then there would be caitya guru and "unconscious guru".

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I can almost understand what you're saying here. I think you almost understand what you're saying as well.

 

 

Beggar and I are discussing a side issue, whether or not anything in existence can be omnipresent without also being omniscient. As far as the guru issue is concerned, no one has ever put forth the idea that guru is omnipresent but he's not omniscient. Because if you accept that everything is conscious, it is a simple logical deduction that the infinite is both omnipresent and omniscient. Those who believe that guru is not omniscient don't turn around and then assert that he is omnipresent. That would be like saying, "he's in the heart of all his followers, but doesn't know their inner desires." If that were true then there would be caitya guru and "unconscious guru".