A-titani--past; vartamanani--present bhavisyani--future is already set

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Arjuna is horrifies because he sees all that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present and all that is happening in the future. He sees the beginning of the material creation and how it also ends, he sees everything that is yet to take place and in total horror, prays to Krishna

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja,

The Pandavas are so much higher than Hanuman. Krsna married His own sister, Subhadra, to the Pandava Arjuna. He personally became Arjuna’s charioteer, and He was following Arjuna’s orders like a servant. He became the messenger of the Pandavas and delivered their message to Duryodhana. In the battle of Kuruksetra, when Arjuna’s horses became tired, He massaged them. He and Arjuna took prasadam from the same plate, and sometimes they would sleep on the same bed.

However, when Krsna showed Arjuna His universal form, Arjuna became afraid, thinking, “What have I done? I have called Him ‘friend’. He is the creator of the entire world. I have made an offense to His lotus feet. I told him to drive my chariot into the middle of the battlefield.” In other words, although at times Arjuna saw Krsna as his friend and cousin, at other times a reverential mood manifested in Arjuna’s heart and he saw Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Uddhava is much higher than the Pandavas, and he prayed to the footdust of the gopis; so the gopis are superior to even Uddhava. All the Vrajavasis are superior to Uddhava. And among the Vrajavasis, Krsna’s friends, like Subala and Sridhama, are superior to His servants. His friends can fight with Krsna, and when He is sleeping they can say, “Oh Kanhaiya, wake up, wake up.”

Krsna’s mother and father, Mother Yasoda and Nanda Baba, are still higher, and Mother Yasoda has still more affection and a sense of ‘mine-ness’ towards Krsna than Nanda Baba; so she is superior.

All the gopis are superior to Krsna’s parents, and, of them, Candravali and Srimati Radhika are still more superior. Moreover, in this category of Krsna’s most beloved gopis, Srimati Radhika is far superior to all, because She has madanakya-mahabhava towards Krsna.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

KRISHNA

 

Your human eyes cannot see me,

Therefore I give you divine eyes;

Behold my universal form

See the past, present and future.

Everything moving and inert

All things are here, all in one place

I am endless, unlimited

And my radiance all expanding.

 

ARJUN

My dear Lord Krishna, I see assembled in your body all the gods and demigods, all human beings and various other living entities. I see in your body many, many arms, bellies, mouths, eyes, scattered everywhere, without limit. I see in you no beginning, no middle, no end.

 

KRISHNA

See how I spread throughout the skies

See how I pervade the cosmos.

I am the beginning of all,

The energy that creates all.

I am that which sustains all life,

Creation is my energy.

I am life and I am death too,

The beginning, middle and end.

 

ARJUN

O Krishna, you bewilder me.

 

KRISHNA

I am the supreme Lord of all,

I am in all, all are in me.

As rivers merge in the ocean

All these warriors will come to me.

I have already killed them all,

You are only my instrument.

Therefore kill and be not disturbed.

Now get up, fight and win glory.

The empowered acarya and pure devotee is fully endowed with all mystic perfections including the ability to see past, present, and future.

"The great sages like Vyasadeva are liberated souls and therefore they can see clearly past, present and future."

 

"That means tri-kalajna. Mahamuni, he is liberated. He is incarnation of God. He knows past, present and future perfectly, we should take knowledge from Him. That is our Krsna Consciousness movement, that we don't accept any knowledge for any person who is defective in so many ways"

 

The material bological bodies we presently occupy are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we can choose to charter off him in order to pursue our selfish desires of material grander without the personal presents of Krishna.

Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal material components, for a temporary time, house the living entity. Such vessels always remains the property of their proprietor Maha-Vishnu, who knows the past, present and future pathway of each vessel.

 

Maha-Vishnu provides these material vessels that correspond with the material desires of those who have chosen to come down from Goloka and experience their mistaken selfish desires.

 

Each pathway of all vessels are already mapped out and ones pathway and destiny in life is already set and Known by Maha-Vishnu even before they take birth in such vessels.

 

Such vessels always remain the property and ornaments of Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva creation in this manifestation of past, present and future and also in the next creation of the mahat-tattva.

 

We are only guests visting the dreams of Maha-Vishnu

 

[Beggar]

Sri Guru and His Grace

Chapt 9

Srila Sridhar Maharj

The Universal Form

In the assembly of the Kurus, when Krsna went to Duryodhana's party with a proposal for peace between the Pandavas and the Kauravas, Duryodhana thought, "Now we have our golden chance. If I can put Krsna in the prison-house now, then the Pandavas will die broken-hearted, and there will be no question of fighting with them." The Kauravas also joined in the scheme, and they told Duhsasana, "Go and bind Krsna with this rope." Duhsasana came with the rope in his hand and tried to bind Krsna. Satyaki, Krsna's attendant, was there, and he furiously came at Duhsasana with a sword. Krsna peacefully caught hold of his hand, and began to manifest himself in such a way that it perplexed Duhsasana .

When Duhsasana saw the universal form displayed by Krsna, he thought, "So many figures appear before me. On whom shall I put the rope? Who shall I bind down?" So many figures were displayed by Krsna in his universal form. On one side there was Baladeva and on another side stood Arjuna, and so many revered risis, chanting Krsna's name. Duhsasana was perplexed. And Bhisma and Drona began to sing in praise of Krsna. Everyone thought, "What is this? This is a magnificent vision, with so many faces!" The whole atmosphere was filled with the divine spirit. Then, Devarsi Narada and so many risis

Dhrtarastra was blind, but he could hear them all praising Krsna, and thought to himself, "Some sort of wonderful things are happening around me, but I can't see." And so, he prayed to Krsna. "O Lord, for the moment please remove my blindness. I would like to see your great manifestation. Afterwards, you can make me blind again, but at least for the time being, remove my blindness." Krsna told him, "There is no necessity of removing your blindness. I say that you can see, and you can see." By the Lord's will alone, even physical blindness was no bar to seeing that great manifestation of Krsna. So, the physical eye can't see God: only the divine eye can see him. And by the will of Krsna, the divine eye was temporarily given to Dhrtarastra. His blindness did not stand in the way of his vision, and he could see Krsna.

[gHari]

 

[...]

To me, Krsna's knowing the future does not imply necessarily that the future is set.

[...]

Sweet Sarva gattah,

 

I rarely make myself understood and this topic is more complex than most. And I may be missing something right before my eyes. Yet, those responses did not seem to address my logic concerns, but were actually the reason I initially wrote a comment. Each of them assumes that Arjuna's and Lord Krishna's statements about knowing the future mean that the "future is set". I do not see that as necessarily logical.

 

That is, I think it is possible to see the future without that future being predestined or set in stone. Almost paradoxically like the chicken or the egg but, they see the future because that is what will happen in the future, due to my use or abuse of free will; not because that is what must happen. That is just what will happen. And from Sri Krsna's transcendental platform He can see it all, all of time, all the drama of loving jivas coming to Him, learning how to love Him, climbing mountains to get to Him, desperate to have Him.

 

If it is all set in stone then there is no real self or real free will - everything is mechanical. We would have no choice at all because all is set in stone, predetermined what words I will type, when I will call out to Krsna, when I will remember the Absolute. Love would become mechanical and mundane.

 

I do not recall Srila Prabhupada ever advocating predestination. The future is not set. I can go back to Godhead anytime I really want to. These chains are not rooted in my real self. They will fall away like dust if I can just stand up - just wake up.

 

Stand and fight! It is not fruitless.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

This is why they call it "ignorance", isn't it? We conveniently "ignore" those truths which are right before our eyes, but which we find unpalatable or incomprehensible.

 

 

Everyone who does not completely agree with Sarva gattah (He may very well be Ramai Swami) is on his ignore list. He does not discuss concepts or ideas but rather only harrangues everyone here with his Sleeper-Vadi propaganda. His postings (and those of his pseudonyms and cohorts) are sanctimonious, condescending and close minded diatribes. (usually only an ISKCON sannyasi could pull this off).

[Sarva gattah]

 

The future is not set. I can go back to Godhead anytime I really want to. These chains are not rooted in my real self. They will fall away like dust if I can just stand up - just wake up. Stand and fight! It is not fruitless.

 

There is a bigger picture you are not seeing that you answered yourself

 

 

And from Sri Krsna's transcendental platform He can see it all, all of time, all the drama of loving jivas coming to Him, learning how to love Him, climbing mountains to get to Him, desperate to have Him. .

 

Innocently sweet ghari, the body you have is not you, is not yours, you are not that body that eventually fades away to dust. Your biological body is not controlled by your free will or choices. It is completely under the controlled of Maha-Vishnu because it is bodily part of His mahat tattva dream. Let me explain before you jump to conclusions

 

Maha-Vishnu can change predestened pathway anytime He wants to please the genune devotees of the Lord. So, yes the future is and isn't set, the future is set as He desires and is changed if He desires.

 

The only free will and choice you have is before you entered that body you chose or were forced to take due to karma. Our pathways have already been created by Maha-Vishnu, it is His dream, not yours or mine, we are simply the visitors to His Mahat-tattva mysterious creation of material bodily vessels.

 

This is important to correctly undertand.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "They will indicate the positive standing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates." (Bhag. 1.3.24)

 

Maha Vishnu knows all past, present and future of his mahat-tattva creation which includes the material bodily vessels you and I are in. Everything is set in the mahat-tattva , everything is already known by its creator Maha-Vishnu however, he can change that anytime He wants to please His pure devotees.

 

The mahat-tattva is temporary and therefore fades (constantly changing and decaying), then it is totally destroyed and then recreated when Maha-Vishnu again manifests the maha-tattva (all the material universes coming from the pours of His sleeping and dreaming body). Everything is there within His dreams, everything is again possible.

[Beggar]

Loving Search For The Lost Servant

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

Excerpt<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2">Introduction</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20"> </td> <td>Great intensity is expressed here in a simple way. It is a mad search -- an urgent campaign. With great earnestness Krishna comes to deliver His lost servants; Krishna comes to take us home. In Brhad Bhagavatamrta, it is written that once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrindavan forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual emancipation and entered Vrindavan as a cowherd boy [sakhya rasa]. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy. All of Krishna's other cowherd friends were astounded, thinking, "What is this? Krishna has lost His senses by embracing this newcomer! How is it possible?" Then, as all of the cowherd boys looked on astonished, Balaram came to Krishna's relief and somehow managed to rouse Him.

Then Krishna addressed His friend with great affection: "Why did you stay away? Why have you been living away from home for so long? How was it possible for you? How could you bear My separation? You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me." Krishna addressed His long lost servant and welcomed him thus. And when Krishna returned home, He took the newcomer by His side to take Prasadam. In this way, a new recruit is earnestly welcomed by Krishna Himself.

So the Lord's search for His lost servants is a loving search; it is not ordinary, but from the heart. And the Lord's heart is not an ordinary heart. Who can estimate what type of search He is engaged in? Although He is full in all respects, still He feels pangs of separation for every one of us, however small we may be. In spite of His supreme position, He has room for us in a corner of His loving heart. This is the nature of the infinite. Such an absolute autocrat, absolute good, is Krishna. An autocrat is not under law. It is not that if Krishna gives Himself to one, another will be lacking. The infinite is not like that; rather there is an infinite supply at His command. So He is the Emporium of Rasa [akhila-rasamrta murtih]. And He is searching for His lost servants, to bring them home.

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Krishna Is Our Friend </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20"> </td> <td>Otherwise we have no hope. Our solace, our consolation in life, is that ultimately we are under the care of such a loving Lord. Krishna's friends think, "What do we care for others? We have our Krishna, our friend. "That sort of inner encouragement, that desperate encouragement, comes from within. "Krishna is there, He is our friend. What do we care about anything? We can take poison, we can jump on the head of that big serpent Kaliya, we can do anything. With Krishna behind us, what do we care? This sentiment is expressed by Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Saranagati:

 

raksa koribo tuhun niscaya jani

pana korobun hama yamuna pani

 

"Fearless and confident of Your protection, I shall drink the waters of the Yamuna, whether they are poisoned or not. I am Your property. You must take care of me; You can't leave me."

 

kaliya-dokha korobi binasa

sodhobi nadi-jala badobi asa

bhakativinoda tuwa gokula-dhana

rakhobi kesava! korato jatana

 

"Although the Kaliya serpent's venom has poisoned the Yamuna's waters, I know that poison will not act. Your presence will cleanse the waters and so increase our confidence in Your protection. Bhaktivinoda is now the property of Gokula, Your holy abode, O Kesava. Kindly protect him with care." How are we to enter into such a loving relationship with the Lord? Through the grace of Sri Gauranga. One devotee has said, "If Gauranga had not come, how could we live? And who would inform us about our ultimate prospect in life?" We have such a great prospect. And yet, without Gauranga, who would have come to inform us that we have so much wealth within?

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">Remember Your Merciful Guardian </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20"> </td> <td> And Sri Gauranga says, "You do not know, but you have such a great magnitude of wealth." His coming to inform us of our prospect is like the astrologer who reads a poor man's horoscope and tells him, "Why are you living a poor life? You have immense wealth buried underground. Try to recover it. You are so great and your guardian is so loving and so high, and yet you are wandering like a poor fellow in the street? What is this! You are not helpless; it is not that you have no guardian. You have only to remember your merciful guardian." In the Srimad-Bhagavatam [11.5.32], where the Kali Yuga Avatar is mentioned, we find evidence of the advent of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. There it is said:

 

 

krsna-varnam tvisa 'krsnam

sangopangastra-parsadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair

yajanti hi su-medhasah

 

"In the age of Kali, persons of great piety and intelligence will worship the Lord as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He will appear in a golden form chanting Krishna's name, accompanied by His associates and entourage." After that, there are two other verses about Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:

 

dhyeyam sada paribhava-ghnam abhista-doham

tirthaspadam siva-virinci-nutam saranyam

bhrtyarti-ham pranata-pala bhavabdhi-potam

vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam

 

Srimad Bhagavatam [11.5.33] explains here, "That same personality who came as Ramacandra and Krishna has again appeared. He has come to direct us to the real fulfillment of life. He is drawing the sweetest nectar from above for the sake of everyone. Meditate only on Him and all your troubles will be finished. He purifies all holy places of pilgrimage and great saintly persons by His touch and by His Sankirtan. He draws the highest things down from the highest plane. And even Brahma and Siva, puzzled by His noble gift, will begin to praise Him. They will eagerly aspire to take shelter under His lotus feet in surrender. The pains of all who come to serve Him will be removed, and their inner necessities will be fulfilled. And He will take care of those who take shelter of Him; they will be given protection as well as everything they may need. In this world where mortality rules, where we are continually experiencing the undesirable changes of repeated birth and death, in this area where no one wants to live, a great ship will come for us and take us within, and carry us away from this unpleasant position. Let us fall at the feet of that great personality who comes to give us the highest nectar."

 

 

tyaktva sudustyaja-surepsita-rajya-laksmim

dharmistha arya-vacasa yad agad aranyam

maya-mrgam dayitayepsitam anvadhavad

vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam

 

"O Supreme Lord, You gave up the goddess of fortune and her great opulence, which is most difficult to abandon and is sought after even by the gods. In order to perfectly establish the principles of religion, You left for the forest to honor a brahmana's curse. To deliver the sinful souls who chase illusory pleasures, You search after them and award them Your devotional service. At the same time, You are engaged in a search for Yourself, in a search for Sri Krishna, Reality the Beautiful." This verse generally applies to Lord Ramacandra, who left His kingdom, and after going with Sitadevi to the forest to discharge the duties designed by His father, chased after the maya-mrgam, the golden deer. Srila Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur, however, shows how this verse also applies to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He says that the word maya-mrgam means that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu ran after the souls that are enveloped by maya, or misconception. The word maya-mrgam, when applied to Ramacandra, means that He ran after Marici, who had taken the form of a golden deer. When applied in the case of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the words maya-mrgam anvadhavat mean "He chased after those souls who are in illusion in order to deliver them. He ran in pursuit of the fallen souls as a savior, to deliver them from maya, or illusion."

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">The Chaitanya Avatar </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>Srila Vivanath Cakravarti Thakur has also given another interpretation: he says that dayitaya ipsitam means "it is desired by the beloved," that is, the search for Krishna. In this way, He identifies two qualities in the Chaitanya Avatar: He relieves the fallen souls, and He searches out Krishna in the mood of His beloved [dayitayepsitam anvadhavat]. Inspired by the mood of dayita, His beloved, Srimati Radharani, He ran after the souls in bondage to deliver them. Here we find the scriptural reference, the seed of this conception. He is in quest of the lost souls, absorbed in a loving search for His lost servants. And throughout the whole life of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and His other self, Nityananda, it is very clear that They, being the Supreme Entity Themselves, are hunting after the fallen souls to deliver them. This will be the backbone of our conception of the Lord's loving search for His lost servants. And it is also said:

 

 

yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyuthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamyaham

 

paritranaya sadhunam

vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharma-samtsthapanarthaya

sambhavami yuge yuge

 

"Whenever and wherever religion declines and irreligion becomes prevalent, I advent Myself. In order to protect the saintly and punish the wicked, as well as to reestablish religious principles, I appear millenium after millenium." Here, Krishna says, "I come here now and then to help reestablish the scriptural injunctions, as well as to do away with the demoniac." These are the references from the scriptures describing how Krishna comes in search of His servants. By accepting these statements as our starting point, we can see that He is always coming to this world to help the fallen souls, His own servants.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Sarva gattah]

The only free will and choice we have is before we entered these material bodies we chose or were forced to take due to karma. Our pathways have already been created by Maha-Vishnu, it is His dream, not yours or mine, we are simply the visitors to His Mahat-tattva mysterious creation of material bodily vessels and there inert surroundings.

This is important to correctly undertand.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "They will indicate the positive standing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates." (Bhag. 1.3.24)

[Sarva gattah]

Answers by HH Romapada Swami

 

Question: In a recent lecture I heard the following explanation: “Our bodies are not ours, even our soul is not something we can claim to be ours, since the soul is directly an energy of Krishna. The only thing which we can claim to be ours is our relationship with Krishna.” Does this mean that, similarly, our free will is the only thing which is ours (that too being given by Krishna)? We can use our free will to come closer to or go further away from our relationship with Krishna. Can we infer it like this also?

 

Answer: Yes, this is a correct understanding. Our only possession is our relationship with Krishna and the freedom to choose whether or not to act within that relationship is an act of free will.

 

Another way of saying the same thing is that we, the living entities, are infinitesimal (anu) and therefore have but a tiny free will, thus minute independence. Our only independence is to choose how we regard Krishna and accordingly we are placed under the jurisdiction of either the internal energy or the external, material energy.

 

Under the influence of the external energy, maya, one may falsely think oneself to be the proprietor and controller of something, at least of one’s own self. But in reality, all of a conditioned soul’s actions and choices are controlled by the modes of material nature (the mahat-tattva).

 

366) It was also said that “What we think about ourselves (aham) is a measure of how humble we are”. Is it correct to extrapolate it a little by thinking that “What/how much we know about Krishna determines our humbleness”? The more we know/feel the all-merciful, all-loving, all-attractive, all- beautiful and compassionate nature of Krishna, the more we are humbled? In this way, all the great souls like Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur and Srila Narottam Das Thakur know/feel so much about Krishna and hence they are so humble. Please enlighten.

 

Our conception of self is very dependent upon how much we understand the Supreme Self and our relationship with Him. As Srila Prabhupada would say, self-realization depends upon God-realization, as much as we are able to see ourselves when we simultaneously perceive the light of the sun during daytime.

Thus, we could say that the more we know of Krishna’s greatness, and in turn acknowledge Krishna’s greatness, the more we feel humbled.

 

Conversely, one who does not know, or fails to acknowledge the fact, that Krishna is the actual controller, enjoyer and best-wishing friend of all and that we are simply His dependent servants — such a person cannot become truly free from pride, however much they may try to do so by other means.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Is bhakti predestined?

 

 

Answers by HH Romapada Swami

Question: Was it destined when I was born that I would one day become associated with ISKCON and do all these spiritual activities? If yes, then why do we preach? Won’t people destined to join ISKCON join it, and those not destined to join ISKCON not join it? If no, then does it mean that joining ISKCON is outside the influence of destiny?

Answer: Bhakti is supreme, causeless and fully independent - no material cause can either induce or impede bhakti from appearing in one’s heart. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarthi Thakura analyses this as follows: if material pious deeds, suffering, blind fortune or any such material condition could guarantee or give rise to bhakti, then that material cause would be considered more powerful than bhakti - this is contradictory and cannot be true.

It is therefore understood that bhakti is attained only by the mercy of bhaktas, who carry pure devotion for <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in their heart. In other words, bhakti (present in the heart of devotees) is the cause of bhakti.

Lord Caitanya taught that a rare and fortunate soul achieves the seed of bhakti through the mercy of a pure devotee.

brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija

“According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. By the mercy of both <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.” (Cc Madhya 19.151)

 

 

Devotional service is thus not predestined. It is by the causeless mercy of devotees that one attains the opportunity for pure devotional service and to revive one’s forgotten relationship with the Supreme Lord.

 

 

Therefore the pure devotees of the Lord move here and there out of great compassion, taking great troubles to create opportunities for people in general to render devotional service.

Even upon receiving the mercy of the devotees, and getting the seed of this devotional creeper (bhakti-lata-bija), it is the choice of the living entity to take up the process of devotion. In other words, it is a matter of individual freewill. At every point, the conditioned living entity has full freedom of choice to turn his misdirected attention back to the Supreme Lord or not - otherwise there would be no meaning to the term freewill at all. (We have previously discussed freewill and predestination at some length - please see Digest 4 and Digest 12 Q 117)

Thus, it is only by the causeless mercy of devotees, when received and accepted by a conditioned living entity by proper use of their freewill, results in their taking up pure devotional service.

It is sometimes seen that certain individuals take to the process of devotional service very quickly and effortlessly, upon coming in contact with devotees - just like dry wood catching fire. In such cases, it can be understood that they are continuing or resuming their spiritual progress from a previous life. One who takes up the path of spiritual realization, or devotional service, but does not achieve complete success in this lifetime is given a further chance in the next life - this is confirmed by <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in BG 6.41-44. The Lord arranges in the lives of such persons an environment or an opportunity that is conducive to once again take up the process from where they left. But even in such a case, it is not quite a matter of predestination - the individual still has the full freedom to choose or reject the opportunity given to them, to misuse or to properly utilize it.

Also, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is fully independent, and so is Bhaktidevi - thus, it cannot be expected that bhakti is obliged to appear because of one’s previous devotional practices. Srila Prabhupada explains how the transcendental system of devotional service is fully independent — it may or may not develop in a particular person even after he undergoes all the detailed formulas. Similarly, the association of devotees is also free from material causes. One may be fortunate to have it, or one may not have it even after thousands of endeavors. Thus, freedom is the main pivot in all spheres of devotional service. (Cf. SB 1.6.37 p) By sincerely surrendering to the Lord through the transparent medium of the spiritual master, we can hope to attract His causeless mercy.

 

Comment - Even all this is known by Maha-Vishnu before this occurs because he provides the bodily vessels for all those who enter his mahat-tattva creation.

 

It all depends on one’s insight of the material creation and their ability, by <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy, to view the bigger picture of how every bodily vessel is arranged and put in place within the material creation by Maha-Vishnu. It therefore may appear that everything is not predestined, even to devotees, due to so called choice, free will and karma, when in fact everything is predestined.

From the top most platform of Maha-Vishnu's blueprint for the maha-tattva, EVERYTHING is predestined because He provides the vessels for every soul’s journey that enters His material creation.

The devotees can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him.

Maha-Vishnu knows when Lord Caitanya comes, He knows when Kalki will come in 427,000 years from now, He can view that time in His eternal ‘present’ reality right now. He sees when a how Lord Caitanya’s movement will grow and bring millions of souls back home back to Godhead. He sees that now. Why? Because He is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s representative who creates, maintains, fascilitates the material creation, builds the pathways, and vessels for all visiting souls to traverse upon and in. All material vessels are His; He knows their destiny which He has already predetermined. Us souls simply act out the parts within His material dream on His gigantic mahat-tattva stage.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Comment - Even all this is known by Maha-Vishnu before this ocurs because he provides the bodily vessels for all those who enter his mahat-tattva creation.

An example of one of the largest vessels in this part of the mahat-tattva:

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

Good work Shakti-fan. Here's the story of how a slightly smaller vessel was "saved".

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="500"><tbody><tr><td height="35">Temple news </td> <td width="13"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td>

Ship purified by chanting of Hare Krishna Mantra!!!!

Call to Richmond in SanFrancisco was special to this 8months old Japanese owned tanker High Glory not because the ship cleared the USCG inspection with NIL observations on her maiden call to USA nor because the crew could go ashore after a long sailing of 32days(from Saudi Arabia) thro the stormy seas they encountered in Pacific ocean which are all part of the profession but because on 6th Feb 2007 when she was nicely tied up alongside the Chevron Richmond Long Wharf no3 berth ,five devotees from ISKCON Berkeley temple led by Sri Rajahamsa Das PhD came on board in the evening.

They were very kind to come on board alongwith dhol and cymbals.It was a fantastic evening with sankirtan, chanting, discourse on board.Fortunately it so happened by His grace that even cargo operation was suspended due to terminal restrictions,so all crew/officers were able to partake in the programme which went on for almost 5hrs.At the end of the day wonderful prasadam was given to everyone which was also brought from the temple.

All crew/offrs really enjoyed as they have never seen this kind of thing in their life happening on board.Am sure most of them will remember this for life—something different from what we shippies normally do. Even I did not expect this kind of response from my people.

Also felt that “though High Glory is beautiful and young ,after this chanting of mantra on board she has become purified by the transcendental sound vibration.”

I should not forget to thank Mr Tom/Mr Ians of GAC Shipping(our local agents) who were kind to arrange for the visitor pass at a short notice without which this programme would not have been possible.

I strongly feel apart from normal parties which have become monotonous in our lives these kind of chanting/bhajan on board to a great extent acts like a pump to boost our morale ,enthusiasm,stress reliever,brings calmness in mind ,happiness/smile on everyones face when we are away from our families and builds faith/confidence in God when many a times we during rough seas are at His mercy —all in turn finally leads to better performance and a safer work place.

“All glories to Srila Prabhupada”—my Master

By: Ram Prasad

Captain of the ship

P.S. Five devotees from the ISKCON Berkeley temple led by Sri Rajahamsa Das PhD were given a special invitation to share an evening of sankirtan, chanting and discourse by Captain Ram Prasad.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Sarva gattah]

Comment - Even all this is known by Maha-Vishnu before this occurs because he provides the bodily vessels for all those who enter his mahat-tattva creation.

 

It all depends on one’s insight of the material creation and their ability, by <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>’s mercy, to view the bigger picture of how every bodily vessel is arranged and put in place within the material creation by Maha-Vishnu. It therefore may appear that everything is not predestined, even to devotees, due to so called choice, free will and karma, when in fact everything is predestined.

<font size=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy, to view the bigger picture of how every bodily vessel is arranged and put in place within the material creation by Maha-Vishnu. It therefore may appear that everything is not predestined, even to devotees, due to so called choice, free will and karma, when in fact everything is predestined.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">From the top most platform of Maha-Vishnu's blueprint for the maha-tattva, EVERYTHING is predestined because He provides the vessels for every soul’s journey that enters His material creation.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">The devotees can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Maha-Vishnu knows when Lord Caitanya comes, He knows when Kalki will come in 427,000 years from now, He can view that time in His eternal ‘present’ reality right now. He sees when a how Lord Caitanya’s movement will grow and bring millions of souls back home back to Godhead. He sees that now. Why? Because He is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s representative who creates, maintains, fascilitates the material creation, builds the pathways, and vessels for all visiting souls to traverse upon and in. All material vessels are His; He knows their destiny which He has already predetermined. Us souls simply act out the parts within His material dream on His gigantic mahat-tattva stage.

[gHari]

 

[...]

Maha-Vishnu can change predestened pathway anytime He wants to please the genune devotees of the Lord. So, yes the future is and isn't set, the future is set as He desires and is changed if He desires. [...]

 

Sarva gattah, that is my understanding and experience as well. I realize now that it was actually Svarupa not you who posted that contaminated quote from BG 7.26 speculating that the "future is already set within the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu" in the Synonyms. I don't know how I somehow associated the post with you. My apologies.

 

Bhagavad-gita 7.26:

 

<center>

vedAhaM samatItAni

vartamAnAni cArjuna

bhaviSyANi ca bhUtAni

mAM tu veda na kazcana

</center>

veda--know; aham--I; samatItAni--completely past; vartamAnAni--present; ca--and; arjuna--O Arjuna; bhaviSyANi--future; ca--also; bhUtAni--all living entities; mAm--Me; tu--but; veda--knows; na--not; kazcana--anyone.

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

So many times I read these canned pieces and I think I'm reading Prabhupada but it's just speculation. I wish it could be written more clearly. I've felt cheated several times. I imagine it is accidental and inexperience, but my trust is gone. This one was so false and dangerous.

[gHari]

 

[...]The devotees can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him.

[...]

This is not why Krsna knows all time: "and therefore knows past, present and future". Are we to turn bhakti into a mechanical thing, not nirguna? One might ask: if it's all predestined and mechanical then why does Ksirodakashayi Visnu come along for the ride? Why should I bother doing anything - what's going to happen is going to happen? Why chant? Why remember Krsna? Where is the love? Love is now mechanical. I am a robot. I don't exist. I am Mayavadi.

Knowing the future does not mean that the future is predestined. That's just what will happen.

[Shakti-Fan]

[Devotee:] It says here, "Even though Krsna is separate from sakti, He is savisesa."

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He is never separate, but for logic Bhaktivinoda Thakura is telling so. Don't use your intelligence. Always take the intelligence of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Rupa Gosvami, and our acaryas; then we can understand. What is this called?

[Devotee:] Anugatya (being under the guidance of the guru-parampara)?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Guru-parampara amnaya. Use amnaya. Don't use your own intelligence. Try to realize what is amnaya (the teachings of the Vedas received through guru-parampara).

[theist]

 

This is not why Krsna knows all time: "and therefore knows past, present and future". Are we to turn bhakti into a mechanical thing, not nirguna? One might ask: if it's all predestined and mechanical then why does Ksirodakashayi Visnu come along for the ride? Why should I bother doing anything - what's going to happen is going to happen? Why chant? Why remember Krsna? Where is the love? Love is now mechanical. I am a robot. I don't exist. I am Mayavadi.

Knowing the future does not mean that the future is predestined. That's just what will happen.

 

Being under karmic law means we are being held responsible for the deeds done to satisfy our material desires. If every little thing is predestined then why do we have different karma's?

 

What is predestined is our prarabdha-karma. That covers the body type parents social staus education wealth general health etc. Prarabdha karma is based on our past deeds and drawn from our stockpile of karma (sanchit) for this particular birth.

 

So our free will is extremely limited but it exists. It is woven throughout the predestined episodes of our life in a way that is basically impossible to see, at least for me. We are so strongly influenced by matter that it appears to be nonexistent.

 

Actions done outside the strict confines of our prarabdha-karma within this life are called kriyamanas. We can change direction. Supersoul takes our desires into consideration and allows for moving back towards Him or farther away.

 

We are tiny souls and controlled by design. Even in the spiritual world we are controlled by the spiritual energy. Free will is what it means to be marginal energy. However we are so minute it can appear we have no free will at all and are just at the mercy of circumstance.

[gHari]

Los Angeles

14 February, 1970

 

My Dear Madhudvisa,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your two letters dated 10 and 12 February, 1970 respectively. I am glad to learn that you are early planning for the upcoming Ratha-yatra festival. In this connection, I have requested the exact date of the festival from India but it has not yet been replied, so you may plan for any suitable date between 20 and 31 July--even if it does not correspond, we have to arrange conveniently, that is allowed.

 

So far additions for this years Rathayatra, you may make three Rathas, one for each of the Deities. The rest of the details are already there, simply you may may supply more money for festoons, decorations, flowers, bells, flags, etc. The Spiritual Sky is far away, but you just try to do it following Jagannatha Puri Rathayatra. Jagannatha Puri or wherever Rathayatra is performed is not different from the spiritual sky.

 

In the spring you may lead a very big procession on Lord Caitanya's birthday. This is a good plan to celebrate this great spring festival out of doors. So make this a very opulent procession with large Sankirtana Party and you may also celebrate in this way again with a procession on Janmastami day. These two important subjects may be observed in this way by all the three areas and similarly in other centers also.

 

Regarding your first question, a pure devotee is never under the modes of nature. In other words, no material laws apply on a devotee because he is fully under the direction of Krsna. So a devotee can continue his present occupation or he may change it if he likes. Krsna does not force a devotee because <B>the devotee acts spontaneously according to the desire of the Lord</B>; in this kind of loving service there is no question of force. Force is applied only when there is denial of Krsna. Just as the citizens of a state have freedom to follow the laws of the state, that is subordinate freedom, and the freedom of the living entities is also subordinate to Krsna. The clue is given there in the Bhagavad-gita that the living entities are fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, this means that all the qualities of Krsna are therefore present in minute quantity in each of His parts and parcels. That is simultaneously one and different philosophy--the living entities thus have free will because they are parts of Krsna and Krsna has free will, but the free will of Krsna is Supreme while the freedom of the parts and parcels is minute. So if the living entity out of love subordinates his free will to Krsna that is his liberation. He is no longer forced to act helplessly, but he acts freely rendering loving devotional service to Krsna in every way. Then we have the practical conclusion from Krsna confirmed by Him in Bhagavad-gita (18:66), ``Just surrender unto Me; and in return I shall protect you from all sinful reactions. Therefore you have nothing to fear.'' In this way astral influences are also material and therefore they do not affect the devotee who has taken protection of Krsna's internal energy, by surrendering his life and soul in the service of the Lord.

 

Your second question about spacemen from other planets; it is stated in the Vedic literature that there are many planets where the inhabitants are more advanced than the inhabitants of this earth planet. So it is not unlikely that such people may have developed space travelling methods. They occupy higher posts in the creation of the Lord and so they may be considered as demigods in the same way as the president is specially empowered by the nation, but this does not mean that such spacemen are necessarily carrying the messages of the Lord, just as the business of the state employee is not to act as the state representative but he acts in his particular job.

 

<B>Because Krsna knows everyone's future does not remove our free will. Someone may commit a theft, and if I know that then I know that he will be captured and punished. That is knowing his future, but know that future does not mean that he had no choice not to commit the criminal act. There are two destinies for every one. One destiny is in Krsna Consciousness and the other destiny is in material consciousness, so if someone is in Krsna Consciousness then Krsna knows his future and if he is in material consciousness and acting in that way then Krsna also knows his future. In this way the free will is not affected by knowing the future of the living being, that is an erroneous conclusion.

 

</b>In regard to praying to Lord Nityananda Prabhu I have written to you in my last letter that such prayer is quite appropriate. Our only prayer should be in the matter of desiring further development of devotional service and such sincere prayer should be submitted not directly to the lord but through the via-media of His bona fide servitor or representative.

 

I am very glad to learn that S.F. Temple is doing very nicely in the street Sankirtana with transcendental plays. And your BTG sales are very encouraging to me. I have heard from Gargamuni that you are ordering 20,000 issues of BTG and this is very good news. Selling BTG means that out movement is increasing and our philosophy is being appreciated. Uttama Sloka is a very good devotee and I am also glad to learn that he is of great assistance to you in guiding the new devotees. He may remain there with my permission for as long as he may like, I know that he is very valuable as an expert Temple manager.

 

I have already sent Hamsaduta to oversee the Germany center and help them be organized.

 

I am very happy to learn that you are arranging for opening another center in San Jose. From your letter I can understand that it will be a good start in spreading our Krsna Consciousness movement to the Spanish speaking people. I do not care whether the center is opened this place or that place, simply I want to see that eventually a center is opened in every place. So far now you may start the center in San Jose, and as you say that there are many advantages to this procedure, you must develop it nicely. This will be a good opportunity for Citsukhananda and his wife to engage some Spanish speaking devotees to help them when the South American center is first opened. So by the near location you should keep in close touch and give them all assistance as much as possible. Your plan is fully approved by me, and you may immediately begin your preparations without delay.

I am so very happy to learn of your increasing desire to spread this Sankirtana movement. My Guru Maharaja used to say that one who has actually got life cannot do but preach this Krsna Consciousness--real spiritual life means he must preach, and he is really a preacher. Now we must prepare all our disciples for serious preaching work, so I am requesting everyone of my initiated students to very seriously chant daily sixteen rounds without fail and to strictly follow the regulative practices. If these two things are done regularly there will be no chance of falling down because these principles are the essential basis of spiritual strength. In addition to this the classes and individual study of our scriptures must be done very scrutinizingly by you all so that you can be preachers fully convinced yourselves of this transcendental science and its necessity for the mankind in general.

 

If one simply regularly chants and follows the rules and regulative principles all questions of philosophy will be answered by Krsna from within and all doubt will be cleared also in this way. And the same answers are there again in our books like Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc. So please see that all the initiated devotees stick rigidly to their daily chanting and regulative living in devotional service. This is most important.

Hope this will meet you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Vigraha]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by gHari

This is not why Krsna knows all time: "and therefore knows past, present and future". Are we to turn bhakti into a mechanical thing, not nirguna? One might ask: if it's all predestined and mechanical then why does Ksirodakashayi Visnu come along for the ride? Why should I bother doing anything - what's going to happen is going to happen? Why chant? Why remember Krsna? Where is the love? Love is now mechanical. I am a robot. I don't exist. I am Mayavadi.

Knowing the future does not mean that the future is predestined. That's just what will happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Everything you have said is totally correct.

 

Your not understanding the point Sarva gattah is making and that is Krishna knows everything. Krishna in the form of His Maha-Vishnu expansion, is eternally established as the controller of the material universes in the eternal 'present' where he can view His own material creation of past present and future. In a simple way to explain this, it is like you begin a journey at the starting point of a road, you cannot see what is ahead, you cannot see the curves and corners along the journey however, if you are situated above and look down you can see the entire journey from beginning to end.

In this similar way, Maha Vishnu sees all of His over all creation of past, present and future. That does not mean the living entities don't have free will, they do, but Maha-Vishnu's amazing creation incorporates all that as well. We are in His material dream; it is not that hard to understand. What ever you choose or desire, you are provided with that vessel He has already mapped out to fulfil that desire. The vast material creation is set in unlimied pathways, NOT the journey of the 'spiritual living entities' that choose to possess those different 'material' vessels and their dimensional pathways found within sub-space (ethereal vessels) and secular space (biological material vessels) existing within billions of universes that make up the mahat-tattva creation moving within the confined realm of past, present and future.

Thiest will understand this. You are not a robot, you have free will and can choose any material pathway your desire (or deserve). Your journey as a spirtual entity is not mapped out however the material bodies you choose or deserve are because they are the creation of Maha-Vishnu’s dreams.

Remember the mahat tattva is the dream of Maha-Vishnu, our desires, choices and aspirations find their counterfeit bodily destiny that is already part and parcel of His Dream. The choice you have is transmigrating or possessing as many bodies as you desire (and deserve) It is thoses choices, desires and thoughts as a 'spiritual being' that are the founding cause of all material bondage and karma. Karma is greatly misunderstood, it begins on the mental platform in the higher ethereal realms that includes, Satya yuga and to a lessor degree, Treta yuga and lessor again degree in Dvapara yuga - that’s another thread to discus this on.

You are not a robot, you have free will and can choose any material pathway your desire (or deserve). Your journey is not mapped out however the material bodies you choose or deserve are because they are the creation of Maha-Vishnu’s dreams.

[Sarva gattah]

 

A mundane example of how this works is' date=' if a young boy plays a video game, the programming, graphics and each possible pathway in that game that the ‘player’ may choose, is already programmed into that game. The player of that game can choose which character he wants to play and therefore can control the destiny of the character within the boundaries of that game he desires to play that has already been created by the graphics designer – we have all played video games, I think you get the drift of what I’m saying. The game has already been created by its designer; we just enter that game and then play it the way we choose. This is how the entire mahat-tattva creation works, created by its ‘graphics’ designer Maha-Vishnu [/color']

 

Ghari can you understand how the mahat-tattva works now and how we operate within the ‘game’ (material creation), according to our free will and chooses?

 

The material bodies we presently occupy and ride around in are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal material components, are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such 'MATERIAL' vessels to correspond with the material desires and dreams of the souls who have chosen to come down from Goloka to experience their mistaken selfish desires as a passenger in one of Maha-Vishnu's bodily containers or vessels.

 

Each pathway (NOT THE PASSENGER WITHIN WHO CAN CHOSE ANY ROUTE, COURSE, DIRECTION HE DESIRES of the MATERIAL vessels that are already mapped out by Maha-Vishnu within His MAHAT-TATTVA dreaming creation, EACH pathway (NOT THE PASSENGERS) within the material creation is already set and known by Maha-Vishnu, even before the PASSENGER takes birth within that material vessel and traveses down its long and winding road. Such bodily containers and their pathways in the material land of the dreaming always remains the property of Maha-Vishnu and not the souls vistng His dreaming creation.[/quote]

[gHari]

Predestination is what I was talking about; what you were talking about. The "future is set" is what the cheater wrote. Stop trying to change the subject and present yourself as superior and me as an idiot. Your lack of integrity here shows you as very inferior, very insincere, as just playng games.

 

What are the consequences of preaching the predestination of bhakti? Try reading my post for once if you are capable of doing more than copying and pasting. Suggesting I don't understand this and that while on other threads it was clearly evident that I did suggests to me that it is not Paramatma but ahakhara that writes these evasive answers here. I was not born yesterday, so why do you assume I was? Are you that dull? Is everyone that dull in your eyes? Or can you only answer the parts you have pastings for? This is very unsatisfactory. You are not the ones to promote this theory. Choose a more capable champion.

[Beggar]

gHari fires a salvo and Sarva gattah's vessel is hit. The passengers of the vessel, the crew will have to abandon ship. Time for Sarva gattah to do the same, although I think he would rather go down with the vessel.

 

 

 

[gHari]

This sounds more like New Wave Ooga-Booga, the idea that we choose the bodily vessel and life from a fleet in the harbor. We GET the life we need according to karma. Isn't that what Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita? Or maybe we are backtracking saying that all those zillions of choices we have made in the past producing what we are conditioned to be now dictates what we will be in the future somehow can be summed up by saying that we CHOOSE the next situation. But why bother? It's a little too misleading, to say the least.

 

What makes us think that Krsna has to set up this whole Maha dream totally in advance. Sounds kind of boring to me for a dream ... even for reality. Where's His relationship with these robots who simply follow their predestination?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Predestination is what I was talking about; what you were talking about. The "future is set" is what the cheater wrote. Stop trying to change the subject and present yourself as superior and me as an idiot. Your lack of integrity here shows you as very inferior, very insincere, as just playng games..

 

Why is this realizaton of Srila Prabhupada's teachings upsetting you?

 

1. The "future is set" means simply and clearly that the mahat-tattva has already been created by its designer Maha Vishnu; we just enter into His creation and then play it the way we choose.

 

2. This is how the entire mahat-tattva creation works, created by its ‘graphics’ designer Maha-Vishnu.

 

3. The programming, graphics and each possible pathway in mahat-tattva that the ‘player’ may choose, is already programmed into His creation

 

4. This gives bodily facilities to the visiting souls thought and imagnations and such bodily material 'graphics' are already predestined, created by their designer Maha Vishnu.

 

5. The 'player or soul' who chooses to enter the mahat-tattva can choose which character he wants to play and therefore can control the destiny of the character he desires to play in the mahat-tattva.

 

6. That characture (material body) is the creation of the graphics designer Maha-Vishnu, the visting souls just enters those 'characture material bodies' and proceed with their choices like a kid enters a computor game and plays it within the bounderious of that game that has already been built by the computor pragrammer.

 

7. The Srimad Bhagavatam tells us this material creation is already the dream of Maha-Vishnu and we, the jiva-tattva, are just guests who enter HIS creation and HIS dream to find the corresponding fascilities he has created that gives bodily form to OUR thoughts, desires and material dreams.

[gHari]

Conclusions of a false premise "Everything is predestined, including bhakti"

 

I am a robot because my choices are already made, eons ago allegedly by me, but that power no longer exists because now everything is predestined. I have absolutely no control whether I will chant, become attracted to Krsna, serve Krsna's desire - even what Krsna's desire will be now was determined eons ago. It is all predestined.

 

Clearly I don't really exist as a separate entity; perhaps I did eons ago, but now I don't. I am a Mayavadi robot; the self is illusion once entering the Mahat-tattva dream. Que sera, sera.