A-titani--past; vartamanani--present bhavisyani--future is already set

[gHari]

 

[...]

1. The "future is set" means simply and clearly that the mahat-tattva has already been created by its designer Maha Vishnu; we just enter into His creation and then play it the way we choose.

[...]

 

But you contend that all the roles are written, already scripted, we don't 'play' the game - we only observe, because the game is set, the future is set, predetermined, even for the uttama-bhagavat.

 

As in

The devotees can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him.

[gHari]

Guru, sadhu, sastra? Do we have any proof for this all-encompassing predestination theory? Romapada Swami has been quoted clearly stating the opposite, but then refuted and discarded somehow. But no real quotes have been presented in support of the mechanical nature of the bhakti.

[Sarva gattah]

 

But you contend that all the roles are written, already scripted, we don't 'play' the game - we only observe, because the game is set, the future is set, predetermined, even for the uttama-bhagavat.

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

1. The "future is set" means simply and clearly that the mahat-tattva has already been created by its designer Maha Vishnu; we just enter into His creation and then play it the way we choose.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The devotees on the other hand, can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Again you answered your own question with the second post. Understanding the above is not really important, understanding the following is all that is necessary

"My Lord, I consider Your Lordship to be eternal time, the supreme controller, without beginning and end, the all-pervasive one. In distributing Your mercy You are equal to everyone. The dissensions between living beings are due to social intercourse." (Queen Kunti in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.8.28)

Srila Prabhupada - "Kuntidevi knew that <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> was neither her nephew nor an ordinary family member of her parental house. She knew perfectly well that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the primeval Lord who lives in everyone's heart as the Supersoul, Paramatma. Another name of the Paramatma feature of the Lord is kala, or eternal time. Eternal time is the witness of all our actions, good and bad, and thus resultant reactions are destined by Him. It is no use saying that we do not know why we are suffering. We may forget the misdeed for which we may suffer at this present moment, but we must remember that Paramatma is our constant companion and therefore He knows everything -- past, present and future. And because the Paramatma feature of Lord Krishna destines all actions and reactions, He is the supreme controller also. Without His sanction not a blade of grass can move. The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. Others, who misuse their freedom, are put into miseries destined by the eternal kala. The kala offers the conditioned souls both happiness and miseries. It is predestined by eternal time. As we have miseries uncalled for, so we may have happiness also without being asked, for they are predestined by kala. No one is therefore either an enemy or friend of the Lord. Everyone is suffering or enjoying the result of his own destiny.

Srila Prabhupada - "One should not uselessly labor in mental speculation to estimate the Lord's qualities. There is no need of adopting the speculative method or exercising the body to attain mystic yoga perfection. One should simply understand that the distress and happiness of this body are predestined; there is no need to try to avoid the distress of this bodily existence or to attempt to achieve happiness by different types of exercises. The best course is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead with body, mind and words and always be engaged in His service. This transcendental labor is fruitful, but other attempts to understand the Absolute Truth are never successful. Therefore an intelligent man does not try to understand the Supreme Person, Absolute Truth, by speculative or mystic power. Rather, he engages in devotional service and depends on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He knows that whatever may happen to the body is due to his past fruitive activities. If one lives such a simple life in devotional service, then automatically he can inherit the transcendental abode of the Lord. Actually, every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and a son of the Godhead. Each has the natural right to inherit and share the transcendental pleasures of the Lord, but due to the contact of matter, conditioned living entities have been practically disinherited. If one adopts the simple method of engaging himself in devotional service, automatically he becomes eligible to become freed from the material contamination and elevated to the transcendental position of associating with the Supreme Lord.

Lord Brahma presented himself to Lord Krsna as the most presumptuous living creature because he wanted to examine the wonder of His personal power. He stole the boys and calves of the Lord in order to see how the Lord would recover them. After his manoeuvre, Lord Brahma admitted that his attempt was most presumptuous, for he was attempting to test his energy before the person of original energy. Coming to his senses, Lord Brahma saw that although he was a very powerful living creature in the estimation of all other living creatures within this material world, in comparison to the power and energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his power was nothing". Chapter of Krsna, "Prayers Offered by Lord Brahma to Lord Krsna."

 

Srila Prabhupada ki Jaya!

[Guruvani]

 

Why is this realizaton of Srila Prabhupada's teachings upsetting you?

 

 

He who claims he has realized is the fool.

You haven't realized anything.

You are a conditioned soul who has realized NOTHING.

[gHari]

Predestination of bhakti remains under dispute.

 

Why are we discussing this stuff anyway? Was this just another way to get to the origins ramblings again? I guess so; you guys are so transparent. If you cared about anything else or anyone else then y'all wouldn't appear quite so obvious, shallow, condescending and impersonal.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Each pathway (NOT THE PASSENGER WITHIN WHO CAN CHOSE ANY ROUTE, COURSE, DIRECTION HE DESIRES of the MATERIAL vessels that are already mapped out by Maha-Vishnu within His MAHAT-TATTVA dreaming creation, EACH pathway (NOT THE PASSENGERS) within the material creation is already set and known by Maha-Vishnu, even before the PASSENGER takes birth within that material vessel and traveses down its long and winding road. Such bodily containers and their pathways in the material land of the dreaming always remains the property of Maha-Vishnu and not the souls vistng His dreaming creation.[/quote

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

1. The "future is set" means simply and clearly that the mahat-tattva has already been created by its designer Maha Vishnu; we just enter into His creation and then play it the way we choose.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The devotees on the other hand, can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Maha-Vishnu can change predestened pathway anytime He wants to please the genune devotees of the Lord. So, yes the future is and isn't set, the future is set as He desires and is changed if He desires.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

The paradoxical and inconcivable conclusion is nicely explained by ghari prabhu -

 

Quote:

 

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by ghari

Knowing the future does not mean that the future is predestined. That's just what will happen.

Bhagavad-gita 7.26:

 

<CENTER>

vedAhaM samatItAni

vartamAnAni cArjuna

bhaviSyANi ca bhUtAni

mAM tu veda na kazcana

</CENTER>

veda--know; aham--I; samatItAni--completely past; vartamAnAni--present; ca--and; arjuna--O Arjuna; bhaviSyANi--future; ca--also; bhUtAni--all living entities; mAm--Me; tu--but; veda--knows; na--not; kazcana--anyone.

 

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

I did not mean to offend you ghari, your understanding of the 'living entities' chooses not being predestined is absolutely right.

The most important point is we are marginal living enitities that has the free will to choose, we are not robots, we are tatastha s'akti and can choose to be with Krishna as His servant or be with Maya. Our free will and the ability to choose between Krishna and Maya is never predestined. We are independant beings with our own individuality, desires and choices of how to please Krishna or how to find our mistaken non Krishna conscious desires within the land of the dreaming facilitated by Maha-Vishnu.

[Sarva gattah]

 

So our free will is extremely limited but it exists. It is woven throughout the predestined episodes of our life in a way that is basically impossible to see, at least for me. We are so strongly influenced by matter that it appears to be nonexistent.

 

Actions done outside the strict confines of our prarabdha-karma within this life are called kriyamanas. We can change direction. Supersoul takes our desires into consideration and allows for moving back towards Him or farther away.

 

We are tiny souls and controlled by design. Even in the spiritual world we are controlled by the spiritual energy. Free will is what it means to be marginal energy. However we are so minute it can appear we have no free will at all and are just at the mercy of circumstance.

[gHari]

This quote is inconsistent with the rest of the quotes and post which deny the predetermination of bhakti.

 

 

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">The devotees on the other hand, can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him. </td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

Los Angeles Regarding your first question, a pure devotee is never under the modes of nature. In other words, no material laws apply on a devotee because he is fully under the direction of Krsna. So a devotee can continue his present occupation or he may change it if he likes. Krsna does not force a devotee because the devotee acts spontaneously according to the desire of the Lord; in this kind of loving service there is no question of force. Force is applied only when there is denial of Krsna.

 

Krsna knows everyone's future does not remove our free will. Someone may commit a theft, and if I know that then I know that he will be captured and punished. That is knowing his future, but know that future does not mean that he had no choice not to commit the criminal act. There are two destinies for every one. One destiny is in Krsna Consciousness and the other destiny is in material consciousness, so if someone is in Krsna Consciousness then Krsna knows his future and if he is in material consciousness and acting in that way then Krsna also knows his future.

 

In this way the free will is not affected by knowing the future of the living being, that is an erroneous conclusion.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Thank you for this insight ghari, like you, I am also still learning and if someone can prove my understanding is wrong, then I will fall at their feet. I had doubts about the moon landing and I have learn't a lot from that thread. As far as my previous quote that seems inconsistant, all I can say is, even if 'God' knows past, present and future it does not change our ability to have free will. For Him, he is all knowing. for us, we are not all knowing and have free will, so in our case you are right and I humbly apologise, nothing is predestined except from the influence of karma (our own thoughts and actions) and even then as theist has explained, their is still tiny freewill. I think the point I was trying to make in that quote is Krishna (in this case His expansion Maha-Vishnu) is, He is all knowing, not us.

[Vigraha]

 

Los Angeles

14 February, 1970

 

My Dear Madhudvisa,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your two letters dated 10 and 12 February, 1970 respectively. I am glad to learn that you are early planning for the upcoming Ratha-yatra festival. In this connection, I have requested the exact date of the festival from India but it has not yet been replied, so you may plan for any suitable date between 20 and 31 July--even if it does not correspond, we have to arrange conveniently, that is allowed.

 

So far additions for this years Rathayatra, you may make three Rathas, one for each of the Deities. The rest of the details are already there, simply you may may supply more money for festoons, decorations, flowers, bells, flags, etc. The Spiritual Sky is far away, but you just try to do it following Jagannatha Puri Rathayatra. Jagannatha Puri or wherever Rathayatra is performed is not different from the spiritual sky.

 

In the spring you may lead a very big procession on Lord Caitanya's birthday. This is a good plan to celebrate this great spring festival out of doors. So make this a very opulent procession with large Sankirtana Party and you may also celebrate in this way again with a procession on Janmastami day. These two important subjects may be observed in this way by all the three areas and similarly in other centers also.

 

Regarding your first question, a pure devotee is never under the modes of nature. In other words, no material laws apply on a devotee because he is fully under the direction of Krsna. So a devotee can continue his present occupation or he may change it if he likes. Krsna does not force a devotee because the devotee acts spontaneously according to the desire of the Lord; in this kind of loving service there is no question of force. Force is applied only when there is denial of Krsna. Just as the citizens of a state have freedom to follow the laws of the state, that is subordinate freedom, and the freedom of the living entities is also subordinate to Krsna. The clue is given there in the Bhagavad-gita that the living entities are fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, this means that all the qualities of Krsna are therefore present in minute quantity in each of His parts and parcels. That is simultaneously one and different philosophy--the living entities thus have free will because they are parts of Krsna and Krsna has free will, but the free will of Krsna is Supreme while the freedom of the parts and parcels is minute. So if the living entity out of love subordinates his free will to Krsna that is his liberation. He is no longer forced to act helplessly, but he acts freely rendering loving devotional service to Krsna in every way. Then we have the practical conclusion from Krsna confirmed by Him in Bhagavad-gita (18:66), ``Just surrender unto Me; and in return I shall protect you from all sinful reactions. Therefore you have nothing to fear.'' In this way astral influences are also material and therefore they do not affect the devotee who has taken protection of Krsna's internal energy, by surrendering his life and soul in the service of the Lord.

 

Your second question about spacemen from other planets; it is stated in the Vedic literature that there are many planets where the inhabitants are more advanced than the inhabitants of this earth planet. So it is not unlikely that such people may have developed space travelling methods. They occupy higher posts in the creation of the Lord and so they may be considered as demigods in the same way as the president is specially empowered by the nation, but this does not mean that such spacemen are necessarily carrying the messages of the Lord, just as the business of the state employee is not to act as the state representative but he acts in his particular job.

 

Because Krsna knows everyone's future does not remove our free will. Someone may commit a theft, and if I know that then I know that he will be captured and punished. That is knowing his future, but know that future does not mean that he had no choice not to commit the criminal act. There are two destinies for every one. One destiny is in Krsna Consciousness and the other destiny is in material consciousness, so if someone is in Krsna Consciousness then Krsna knows his future and if he is in material consciousness and acting in that way then Krsna also knows his future. In this way the free will is not affected by knowing the future of the living being, that is an erroneous conclusion.

In regard to praying to Lord Nityananda Prabhu I have written to you in my last letter that such prayer is quite appropriate. Our only prayer should be in the matter of desiring further development of devotional service and such sincere prayer should be submitted not directly to the lord but through the via-media of His bona fide servitor or representative.

 

I am very glad to learn that S.F. Temple is doing very nicely in the street Sankirtana with transcendental plays. And your BTG sales are very encouraging to me. I have heard from Gargamuni that you are ordering 20,000 issues of BTG and this is very good news. Selling BTG means that out movement is increasing and our philosophy is being appreciated. Uttama Sloka is a very good devotee and I am also glad to learn that he is of great assistance to you in guiding the new devotees. He may remain there with my permission for as long as he may like, I know that he is very valuable as an expert Temple manager.

 

I have already sent Hamsaduta to oversee the Germany center and help them be organized.

 

I am very happy to learn that you are arranging for opening another center in San Jose. From your letter I can understand that it will be a good start in spreading our Krsna Consciousness movement to the Spanish speaking people. I do not care whether the center is opened this place or that place, simply I want to see that eventually a center is opened in every place. So far now you may start the center in San Jose, and as you say that there are many advantages to this procedure, you must develop it nicely. This will be a good opportunity for Citsukhananda and his wife to engage some Spanish speaking devotees to help them when the South American center is first opened. So by the near location you should keep in close touch and give them all assistance as much as possible. Your plan is fully approved by me, and you may immediately begin your preparations without delay.

I am so very happy to learn of your increasing desire to spread this Sankirtana movement. My Guru Maharaja used to say that one who has actually got life cannot do but preach this Krsna Consciousness--real spiritual life means he must preach, and he is really a preacher. Now we must prepare all our disciples for serious preaching work, so I am requesting everyone of my initiated students to very seriously chant daily sixteen rounds without fail and to strictly follow the regulative practices. If these two things are done regularly there will be no chance of falling down because these principles are the essential basis of spiritual strength. In addition to this the classes and individual study of our scriptures must be done very scrutinizingly by you all so that you can be preachers fully convinced yourselves of this transcendental science and its necessity for the mankind in general.

 

If one simply regularly chants and follows the rules and regulative principles all questions of philosophy will be answered by Krsna from within and all doubt will be cleared also in this way. And the same answers are there again in our books like Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc. So please see that all the initiated devotees stick rigidly to their daily chanting and regulative living in devotional service. This is most important.

Hope this will meet you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Nice letter and answers all our questions on destiney, free will and predestination. Also the following letter also proves there is no need of philosophical speculation as found on this thread.

 

The following is all that is important and the final conclusion that ghari has nicely explained should be accepted by sarva-gattah, Svarupa, a few others as well as myself as bonafide conclusion from the view point of sadhu, shastra and Guru

 

Srila Prabhupada - "One should not uselessly labor in mental speculation to estimate the Lord's qualities. There is no need of adopting the speculative method or exercising the body to attain mystic yoga perfection. One should simply understand that the distress and happiness of this body are predestined; there is no need to try to avoid the distress of this bodily existence or to attempt to achieve happiness by different types of exercises. The best course is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead with body, mind and words and always be engaged in His service.

Chapter of Krsna, "Prayers Offered by Lord Brahma to Lord Krsna."

[Ashvatama]

 

Just because others do not understand it does not mean it is not right. I sense the tall poppy syndrome here, someones realizations cut down to suit the majority.

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

If one can understand that the bodily vessel they possess in the mahat-tattva is not them and that their real eternal bodily identity is in Goloka, then one can be free from, not only the material bodily identity, but it’s karma as well.

 

Krishna Conscious knowledge and Bhakti will burn up all of one's good and bad karma that ties one trapped within the mahat-tattva.

 

Therefore if one can realize that the “I” (nitya-baddha consciousness) possessing the biological body and mind, as well as the biological bodies underlining ethereal container, is not ones real authentic identity, then attachment to the good and bad karmic reactions of all bodily vessels is severed.

 

Ones spiritual eyes begin to open to the fact that what they thought was them, is really their 'dreaming' nitya baddha consciousness.

 

Therefore due to forgettfulness of their nitya-siddha body (ones real eternal self), they have been restricted to their nitya-baddha inferior dreaming consciousness due to ones selfish non Krishna conscious dreams and thoughts.

 

Such non Krishna Conscious dreams and thoughts erase any memory of their higher bodily ‘svarupa’ self and any memory of their perpetual loving relationship with Krishna or God

 

If one can also understand that one’s non Krishna conscious thoughts and dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) are bodiless until they are given bodily form from the stockpile of bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva creation, then one can realize that the biological body and mind, a desire of the nitya-baddha consciousness, is not who one really is.

 

Such vessels are created by the graphic’s designer Maha-Vishnu that one is provided with that suits their material chooses and desires. Such bodies are always the property of the mahat-tattva and are like the decorations of a room that are part and parcel of that room. Similarly, the biological and ethereal containers ARE the mahat-tattva, just like the decorations are the room.

 

This means every dream and thought can only be given real active form (even though temporary) by Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation (the material creation).

[realist]

 

If one can understand that the bodily vessel they possess in the mahat-tattva is not them and that their real eternal bodily identity is in Goloka, then one can be free from, not only the material bodily identity, but it’s karma as well.

 

Krishna Conscious knowledge and Bhakti will burn up all of one's good and bad karma that ties one trapped within the mahat-tattva.

 

Therefore if one can realize that the “I” (nitya-baddha consciousness) possessing the biological body and mind, as well as the biological bodies underlining ethereal container, is not ones real authentic identity, then attachment to the good and bad karmic reactions of all bodily vessels is severed.

 

Ones spiritual eyes begin to open to the fact that what they thought was them, is really their 'dreaming' nitya baddha consciousness.

 

Therefore due to forgettfulness of their nitya-siddha body (ones real eternal self), they have been restricted to their nitya-baddha inferior dreaming consciousness due to ones selfish non Krishna conscious dreams and thoughts.

 

Such non Krishna Conscious dreams and thoughts erase any memory of their higher bodily ‘svarupa’ self and any memory of their perpetual loving relationship with Krishna or God

 

If one can also understand that one’s non Krishna conscious thoughts and dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) are bodiless until they are given bodily form from the stockpile of bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva creation, then one can realize that the biological body and mind, a desire of the nitya-baddha consciousness, is not who one really is.

 

Such vessels are created by the graphic’s designer Maha-Vishnu that one is provided with that suits their material chooses and desires. Such bodies are always the property of the mahat-tattva and are like the decorations of a room that are part and parcel of that room. Similarly, the biological and ethereal containers ARE the mahat-tattva, just like the decorations are the room.

 

This means every dream and thought can only be given real active form (even though temporary) by Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation (the material creation).

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> A mundane example of how this works is, if a young boy plays a video game, the programming, graphics and each possible pathway in that game that the ‘player’ may choose, is already programmed into that game. The player of that game can choose which character he wants to play and therefore can control the destiny of the character within the boundaries of that game he desires to play that has already been created by the graphics designer – we have all played video games, I think you get the drift of what I’m saying. The game has already been created by its designer; we just enter that game and then play it the way we choose. This is how the entire mahat-tattva creation works, created by its ‘graphics’ designer Maha-Vishnu

 

The material bodies we presently occupy and ride around in are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal material components, are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such 'MATERIAL' vessels to correspond with the material desires and dreams of the souls who have chosen to come down from Goloka to experience their mistaken selfish desires as a passenger in one of Maha-Vishnu's bodily containers or vessel</td></tr></tbody></table>

Being under karmic law means we are being held responsible for the deeds done to satisfy our material desires. If every little thing is predestined then why do we have different karma's?

What is predestined is our prarabdha-karma. That covers the body type parents social staus education wealth general health etc. Prarabdha karma is based on our past deeds and drawn from our stockpile of karma (sanchit) for this particular birth.

So our free will is extremely limited but it exists. It is woven throughout the predestined episodes of our life in a way that is basically impossible to see, at least for me. We are so strongly influenced by matter that it appears to be nonexistent.

Actions done outside the strict confines of our prarabdha-karma within this life are called kriyamanas. We can change direction. Supersoul takes our desires into consideration and allows for moving back towards Him or farther away.

We are tiny souls and controlled by design. Even in the spiritual world we are controlled by the spiritual energy. Free will is what it means to be marginal energy. However we are so minute it can appear we have no free will at all and are just at the mercy of circumstance.

The following is all that is important and the final conclusion that ghari has nicely explained should be accepted by sarva-gattah, Svarupa, a few others as well as myself as bonafide conclusion from the view point of sadhu, shastra and Guru

Srila Prabhupada - "One should not uselessly labor in mental speculation to estimate the Lord's qualities. There is no need of adopting the speculative method or exercising the body to attain mystic yoga perfection. One should simply understand that the distress and happiness of this body are predestined; there is no need to try to avoid the distress of this bodily existence or to attempt to achieve happiness by different types of exercises. The best course is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead with body, mind and words and always be engaged in His service.

Chapter of Krsna, "Prayers Offered by Lord Brahma to Lord Krsna."

Thus ends the discussion on this thread

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Thus ends the discussion on this thread

 

Wishful thinking, or a request for the moderators to close the thread?