Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

This is my only gripe ever with ISKCON. Not the mistakes, not the bad choices for leadership positions, such things happen in a large or even small institution, and can be corrected, reformed, solved, etc. But when they say such and such is the guru of such and such, this is not proper not accepted by the criteria of guru-shastra-sadhu.

 

So what should Iskcon do if someone less-then-worthy starts to initiate disciples in Iskcon temples? Iskcon has a very poor track record when it comes to deviants and deviations. How to safeguard the institution from fraudsters?

 

Seems to me that Iskcon is not doing ENOUGH because after another guru falls down we are invariably informed that Iskcon leadership knew for years that this person had serious issues, yet the disciples and potential disciples were never informed.

 

Tricky business when you go from guru-disciple relationship to an institution where many people initiate.

[mahak]

They were never commissioned to do this kind of work, never authorized to play the diksa guru appointment and approval (or even disapproval) business. While I dont think the rtvik movement is authorized either, ISKCON's leadership does have the responsibility to keep the program of their spiritual master continuing.

 

The trouble is, this stuff with unrighteous leaders has been around too long, even predating Srila Prabhupadas disappearance. By continuing their attachment to leadership without being humble, there is no reform possible. Their irresponsible protection of jerks is unfathomable, but actually no more now than 30 years ago, when you had armed robbers and white slavers running the centers. The only difference is that now, they dont have to face Prabhupada with their evil intent, getting constantly badgered to do the right thing. Now they have carte blanche to do whatever they want without having to put up with the two week visits where they had to lie and blame everyone else for their own inability to even get the fact that their business is to first, become krsna conscious, which makes one develop vaiosnava character. They never became krsna conscious, therefore, there is no vaisnava character. A true vaisnava would do away with, immediately, anyone who even spoke harshly against Prabhupadas daughters or their children, let alone allow them to continbue in their false leadership positions. Where is the ksatriya whop protects those who have no other protection? Where is the brahmana who advises the leaders on proper behavior for a civilized human being, let alone one who presents himself as a vaisnava?

 

Some say silence is permission, and on this point, I agree with PADA. But true vaisnava leadership is very rare, and may be so rare as to not even exist one iota within the structure of the foundation created by our guru maharaja.

 

Maybe ISKCON has itself become unworthy, so how can it guide one unworthy person within its ranks? My bet is that iof they find one not worthy of being in ISKCON, because they themselves are unworthy as a whole, they have pointed out one who is actually more viable than themselves. Is it not a fact that many very nice devotees left either by choice or by force?

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS This scene is not unprecedented, christianity has been wracked for two millenia with the same malfeasance. A true christian is surely there, but seldom within a structure of any organization, ie terese avila, francis assisi, even tomas merton. The church wanted to expel the kids of Fatima, juan of guadaloupe, and yet they propel fascists and enablers of horrible manifest destiny genocidal doctrines throughout history.

[cbrahma]

So this promotes a corporate pseudo-religious form of initiation.

The very term 'duly initiated' sends shudders up my spine. I've seen too many people hurt and bullied by the admonition to surrender. When it comes to that it is downright deception - I would go so far as to call it evil.

[Beggar]

 

 

Organized Religion

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

 

Sri Krishna manifests His eternal birth, the pure cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located above all mundane limitations. King Kamsa [the demon king who wanted to kill Lord Krishna] is the typical empiricist, ever on the lookout for the appearance of the truth for the purpose of suppressing Him before He has time to develop. This is no exaggeration of the real connotation of the consistent empiric position. The materialist has a natural repugnance for the transcendent. He is disposed to link that faith in the incomprehensible is the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy in the guise of religion. He is also equally under the delusion that there is no real dividing line between the material and the spiritual. He is strengthened in his delusion by the interpretation of scriptures by persons who are like-minded with himself. This includes all the lexicographic interpreters.

The lexicographical interpretation is upheld by Kamsa as the real scientific explanation of the scriptures, and is perfectly in keeping with his dread of and aversion for the transcendental. These lexicographical interpreters are employed by Kamsa in putting down the first suspected appearance of any genuine faith in the transcendental. King Kamsa knows very well that if the faith in the transcendental is once allowed to grow it is sure to upset all his empiric prospects.

There is historical ground for such misgivings. Accordingly if the empiric domination is to be preserved in tact it would be necessary not to lose a moment to put down the transcendental heresy the instant it threatens to make its appearance in earnest. King Kamsa, acting on this traditional fear, is never slow to take the scientific precaution of deputing empiric teachers of the scriptures, backed by the resources of dictionary and grammar and all empiric subtleties to put down, by the show of specious arguments based on hypothetical principles, the true interpretation of the eternal religion revealed by the scriptures.

Kamsa is strongly persuaded that faith in the transcendental can be effectively put down by empiricism if prompt and decisive measures are adopted at the very outset. He attributes the failure of atheism in the past to the neglect of the adoption of such measures before the theistic fallacy has had time to spread among the fanatical masses.

But Kamsa is found to count without his host. When Krishna is born, He is found to be able to upset all sinister designs against those who are apprized by Himself of His advent. The apparently causeless faith displayed by persons irrespective of age, sex and condition may confound all rabid empiricists who are on principle adverse to the Absolute Truth Whose appearance is utterly incompatible with the domination of empiricism.

But no adverse efforts of the empiricists whose rule seems till then to be perfectly well-established over the minds of the deluded souls of this world can dissuade any person from exclusively following the Truth when He actually manifests His birth in the pure cognitive essence of the soul.

Putana [the demoness who tried to kill Krishna] is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the hands of the pseudo-teachers of religion. These teachers are successful in forestalling the attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptism of their babies. This is ensured by the arrangements of all established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with cooperation of their worldly parents. No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of their pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of atheistic disposition in the people of this world.

The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest form of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil.

It is not from any deliberate opposition to the ordained clergy that these observations are made. The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not always be objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in pursuance of the teachings of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditioned souls.

But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of, nor the favourer of, any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise the chance of denigrating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy.

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the theistic disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their unwilling victims.

But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with the new-born Krishna. The would-be slayer of herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy.

But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like to lose the services of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute, heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion.

[Kulapavana]

 

They were never commissioned to do this kind of work, never authorized to p[lay the diksa guru appointment and approval (or even disapproval) business.

 

That is debatable. Spiritual standards are very much what GBC was set up to monitor. I would much rather get them involved in that as opposed to managing day to day operations of the society.

 

And you did not answer my question: WHO is (or was) supposed to protect the society from fraudulent "gurus"? Not that they actually did their job well, but lets face it, there were some real doozies there, even among the first 11 Prabhupada himself designated. I could easily imagine "guru-gang wars" (down to a real bloodshed) without GBC's authority in that area.

[mahak]

you think the eleven had any respect for anyone else? These were the guys, perios. They met with each other to decide, and even then, the wars took place. But, no, there was never a GBC monitoring any gurus. If there were, then the zonal acarya trip would have never gotton off the ground.

 

Does the clooege of cardinals have any sway with a presiding pope? Only when he is a corpse do they have anything at all to do, and then they do their job, only to suffer the results of their selection until that one dies. Maybe in the middle ages, they tried, made second and third popes, moved them from rome to constantinople, but they never had control of the outcome. The result is now a coptic pope (who I personally accept as the head of the foundation of Lord Jesus Christ's legacy), a roman pope, an orthodox pope, and their authority is never in the hands of fallible cardinals. Prabhupada criticized this very much, saying that a fallible one has no ability to deem another infallible. So if there was a gbc who managed infallible gurus, wouldnt the GBC be the guru and the guru they deem fit subordinate to their infallibility? Doint make any sense to me whatsoever.

[Kulapavana]

 

So if there was a gbc who managed infallible gurus, wouldnt the GBC be the guru and the guru they deem fit subordinate to their infallibility? Doint make any sense to me whatsoever.

 

The idea of "infallible guru" is another useful myth in our society. People (parishads) supposedy fall from Goloka Vrindavan, but a guru is infallible?

 

The REALITY is painfully obvious: gurus are fallible and thus an ecclectic body is needed to monitor the standards in society.

 

... and still no answer to my question...

[sevabhakta]

 

The idea of "infallible guru" is another useful myth in our society. People (parishads) supposedy fall from Goloka Vrindavan, but a guru is infallible?

 

The REALITY is painfully obvious: gurus are fallible and thus an ecclectic body is needed to monitor the standards in society.

 

... and still no answer to my question...

 

Srila Prabhupada placed a layer of protection in that his final decision was that all those initiated into his Iskcon movement would be his initiated disciples. Everyone else was to pass on his exact instructions, in parampara fashion, thus fulfilling the title they received, disciple of an acarya.

 

But he could not protect against the free will choice to disobey.

 

Any brahminically qualified disciple of Srila Prabhupada, in good standing, was to reach the height of his Varna, Brahmana Sanyassi, and thus Spiritual Master of all others by dint of his recognition of the technicality that only by accepting disciples on behalf of his Guru, as per his instructions, would he be qualified for what he would never be considered as otherwise. A spiritual master.

 

Those of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who accept the ritvik order have better chance of acheiving the goal of the sadhana given than those who do not. Stands to reason.

 

It is a transcendentally ironic twist of fate that the strongest symptom that any sadhana bhakta disciples of Srila Prabhupada has actually become a Pure Siksa Guru will be his recognition that the best person to turn the sinful reactions of a new aspirant over to is the person most responsible and capable of eradicating them, and that is the bonafide spiritual master. Last we checked there was one telling us to do like that.

 

Everything else is a crapshoot.

 

A good Siksa (Instructor) Guru instructs what the previous acarya instructs, anything less is not Guru.

 

Hare Krsna

[cbrahma]

 

The idea of "infallible guru" is another useful myth in our society. People (parishads) supposedy fall from Goloka Vrindavan, but a guru is infallible?

 

The REALITY is painfully obvious: gurus are fallible and thus an ecclectic body is needed to monitor the standards in society.

 

... and still no answer to my question...

The ecclectic body is infallible?

[Guruvani]

 

The ecclectic body is infallible?

Rare.

I think you have a good point.

Absolutely on point.

[Kulapavana]

 

The ecclectic body is infallible?

 

The only truly infallible person is Lord Krsna.

 

Why did both Bhatisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada insisted on placing spiritual authority in an ecclectic body of a GBC and not a single successor? Because they knew that individual people are fallible but an ecclectic governing body has a better chance of minimizing deviations and the abuse of power.

 

If you have better idea I'm all ears.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada placed a layer of protection in that his final decision was that all those initiated into his Iskcon movement would be his initiated disciples.

 

I am surprised you turned ritvik, Mahaksa-ji...

 

So that is your solution? A ritvik system? You think ritvik representatives are immune from deviation and abuse of power? Give me a break... Deviations and serious abuse of power was happening even when SP was still here. Without him to stop it it would have been 10 times worse. You think that being called a ritvik as opposed to a regular guru would have stopped guys like Kirtanananda, Bhavs, or Hansadutta? This "solution" is a total joke, on top of being a deviation in itself. It is merely another MYTH of a "perfect solution".

[Guruvani]

 

The only truly infallible person is Lord Krsna.

 

Why did both Bhatisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada insisted on placing spiritual authority in an ecclectic body of a GBC and not a single successor? Because they knew that individual people are fallible but an ecclectic governing body has a better chance of minimizing deviations and the abuse of power.

 

If you have better idea I'm all ears.

I think the democratic convention of Vaishnavas is a basically good idea if the parameters and purview of the committe is defined in such a way that the committee itself doesn't become corrupt.

 

However,the GBC appears to have lost connection with reality as far as the limits of their authority goes.

They select gurus and are creating an ecclesiastical framework for mimicking the Catholic church.

 

If the governing body's limitations are not written in stone and strictly enforced, then the committee is no improvement over the traditional Vaishnava society of self-effulgent and charismatic leaders with autonomous authority coming from the Godhead.

 

I prefer the old system.

This experiment in Vaishnava democracy has failed.

It failed for the Gaudiya Matha and it has failed miserably in ISKCON.

 

I don't see any hope for it.

A real acharya cannot be sanctioned or subordinated to any committee of people.

[Kulapavana]

 

I think the democratic convention of Vaishnavas is a basically good idea if the parameters and purview of the committe is defined in such a way that the committee itself doesn't become corrupt.

 

However,the GBC appears to have lost connection with reality as far as the limits of their authority goes.

 

Agreed. I blame it on the "appointment for life" policy. If failed miserably. The original plan as presented in DOM document was much better. GBCs should be elected by temple presidents, who in turn should be elected by local temple devotees.

[cbrahma]

 

Agreed. I blame it on the "appointment for life" policy. If failed miserably. The original plan as presented in DOM document was much better. GBCs should be elected by temple presidents, who in turn should be elected by local temple devotees.

But they will answer that Vedic society was never democratic. The saintly kings ruled- a benevolent dictatorship - with God in charge.

Where have we heard that before in Western history?

[Kulapavana]

 

But they will answer that Vedic society was never democratic.

 

And our society of devotees is Vedic?

 

Like sannyasis with big bank accounts are Vedic... what a joke...

 

Our society is completely disfunctional. The only measure of practical sanity and hope is in a democratic system. I have lived for many years in an independent community of devotees where such a democratic system is used and would not want it any other way. It is not perfect but it beats any dictatorship hands down.

[cbrahma]

No it's not just about offenses and party feelings - it's about the failure of the system. Ironically, the war cry of continuing the sampradaya with a surfeit of diska gurus threatens to destroy the credibility of the whole guru-diska system.

[mahak]

 

I am surprised you turned ritvik, Mahaksa-ji...

 

So that is your solution? A ritvik system? You think ritvik representatives are immune from deviation and abuse of power? Give me a break... Deviations and serious abuse of power was happening even when SP was still here. Without him to stop it it would have been 10 times worse. You think that being called a ritvik as opposed to a regular guru would have stopped guys like Kirtanananda, Bhavs, or Hansadutta? This "solution" is a total joke, on top of being a deviation in itself. It is merely another MYTH of a "perfect solution".

 

I agree. Rtvik is just the other side of the elected/appointed guru coin. Except they say there will never be another guru, freezing the acarya in time like some followers of Jesus did. And, as I have always said, J9 was a device of TKG. There is no difference for them that they were rtvik or regular guru, the actions were the same and their goals were met euther way. Their goals were to CONTROL others, just as when Prabhupada was present. He "gave them everything THEY asked for". But what does he ask for? This is what the disciple must do, be, and everything connected with very existance.

 

That is, become krsna conscious, so much so that ones cup is so full it spills over to all those around them. Everyone is looking for masters, yet Srila Prabhupada always teaches opposite, that this is the descending process, that we MUST search for a servant, then we are fixed up.

 

No, not I, kula, dont do the rtvik shuffle of revisionism based on the teachings and maneuvers of TKG.

 

No, no mo rtvik discussion here, the title of this thread is Hare Krsna, this is where we only speak that which will bring us back home, back to Godhead, and maybe a few other things, like express our friendship for all who take to this process. The time is now, tomorrow is too late, and may never come.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[sevabhakta]

 

I am surprised you turned ritvik, Mahaksa-ji...

 

So that is your solution? A ritvik system? You think ritvik representatives are immune from deviation and abuse of power? Give me a break... Deviations and serious abuse of power was happening even when SP was still here. Without him to stop it it would have been 10 times worse. You think that being called a ritvik as opposed to a regular guru would have stopped guys like Kirtanananda, Bhavs, or Hansadutta? This "solution" is a total joke, on top of being a deviation in itself. It is merely another MYTH of a "perfect solution".

 

Hare Krsna

 

Let's try looking at it this way.

 

There is no solution. Any system can and will be abused. Srila Prabhupada ordered Ritvik. You either follow him or you don't, that is all. You either follow his system and DONT CHEAT AND ABUSE IT, and make the best of it, or you concoct your own. Good luck with that.

 

And as for this piece by Mahak,

 

 

No, no mo rtvik discussion here, the title of this thread is Hare Krsna, this is where we only speak that which will bring us back home, back to Godhead, and maybe a few other things

 

 

Chanting Hare Krsna from scratch is Bhagavata vidhi. For some people the name is sufficient, Krpa siddhi maybe, or they were already very advanced.

 

FOR THE REST OF US, Srila Prabhupada was explicit that Pancaratriki vidhi was to be followed simultaneously in order that we make spiritual advancement while performing Bhagavat vidhi of Sravana/Kirtana.

 

 

SB 7.5.23-24 Purport:

 

The answer is that even though the chanting of the holy name is sufficient to enable one to progress in spiritual life to the standard of love of Godhead, one is nonetheless susceptible to contamination because of possessing a material body. Consequently, special stress is given to the arcana-vidhi. One should therefore regularly take advantage of both the bhägavata process and pancaratriki process.

 

 

Teaching of Lord Kapila ch.15:

Thus there must be two activities. The Deities must be worshiped, and this is called pancaratriki-vidhi. There must also be bhagavata-vidhi, reading Srimad Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. pancaratriki-vidhi and bhagavata-vidhi go hand in hand. By participating in these two processes, the neophyte can gradually attain the intermediate stage.

 

 

 

SB 8.12.10 Purport

For the present day, the pancaratriki-vidhi as enunciated by Narada Muni is the only hope. Srila Rupa Gosvami, therefore, has quoted the following verse from the Brahma-yamala:

sruti-smrti-puranadi-

pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir

utpatayaiva kalpate

[bRS 1.2.101]

“Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, puranas and Narada-pancaratra is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101) Those who are very advanced in knowledge and are situated in the mode of goodness follow the Vedic instructions of the sruti and smrti and other religious scriptures, including the pancaratriki-vidhi. Without understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead in this way, one only creates a disturbance. In this age of Kali, so many gurus have sprung up, and because they do not refer to the sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratrika-vidhi [bRS 1.2.101], they are creating a great disturbance in the world in regard to understanding the Absolute Truth. However, those who follow the pancaratriki-vidhi under the guidance of a proper spiritual master can understand the Absolute Truth. It is said, pancaratrasya krtsnasya vakta tu bhagavan svayam: the pancaratra system is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just like Bhagavad-gita.

 

 

 

CC Antya 7.76 Purport

Thus Narada, in his pancaratriki-vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment, to restrict this sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshiping the Deity in the temple are essential. Srila Rupa Gosvami has described that the holy name of the Lord can be chanted by liberated souls, but almost all the souls we have to initiate are conditioned. It is advised that one chant the holy name of the Lord without offenses and according to the regulative principles, yet due to their past bad habits they violate these rules and regulations. Thus the regulative principles for worship of the Deity are also simultaneously essential.

 

The acarya prescribed the regulative principles for carrying out deity worship in his society, and one of them is 2nd initiation

 

 

SB 4.31.10 Purport.

Thus if one is initiated by a proper person, he can be accepted as twice-born immediately. In our Krsna consciousness movement, we therefore offer the student his first initiation and allow him to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. By chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly and following the regulative principles, one becomes qualified to be initiated as a brahmana, because unless one is a qualified brahmana he cannot be allowed to worship Lord Visnu. This is called yajnika janma. In our Krsna consciousness society, unless one is twice initiated—first by chanting Hare Krsna and second by the Gayatri mantra—he is not allowed to enter the kitchen or Deity room to execute duties. However, when one is elevated to the platform on which he can worship the Deity, his previous birth does not matter.

 

Can't have Pancaratra vidhi without priests performing rituals, and Brahminical initation is included in there, and the Acarya called them ritviks.

 

Anyone who thinks that being a ritvik precludes a person from becoming a spiritual master is ill informed.

 

I suppose Tamal also falsified Srila Prabhupada's last will and testament to read that all property directors would be Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples. Please.

 

Ritvik ritvik ritvik. Nice ring to it.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

And, as I have always said, J9 was a device of TKG.

That is a conspiracy theory that none of the senior ISKCON men and insiders who were actually there would ever agree with.

 

Let's avoid wild-eyed conspiracy theories and keep to facts that can be verified.

 

Even many of Tamal's enemies know better than to accuse him of that, because they were around to know better.

[mahak]

some may prefer to get guru thru dog, to place a kali cela reptilian assassins in between themselves and the acarya, but I reject this.