tatashta shakti - From my view

[theist]

I would like to offer my view on the marginal energy as it differs a little from the others I hear.

 

Some say the tatashta sakti is a region and refers to region where the jiva is generated. Some say the opposite, that is refers to the living entities themselves and their possession of free will on being able to choose where to reside, on the spiritual side or material side, and thus cannot be seen as a "geographical" location.

 

IMO both views are correct but incomplete. Clearly tatashta sakti is the eternal nature of the jivas and remains such even in the spiritual world. To assume different would be to view the spiritual world as inhabitated by slave like lifeless robot like beings mechanically serving the Lord. Free will is the foundational platform of love. The very boundary that marks one soul from another. Remove that and you have impersonalism.

 

This however does not disqualify the concept of region or geography. It just means that when seen as a region it is refering to a specific energy of Krsna's as a whole (vs. just one jiva) and collectively. The region of our generation is tatashta. THE THING IS THIS REGION IS NOT IMPERSONAL. THE REGION IS PERSONAL AND IS MADE UP OF THE JIVA'S.

 

Goloka and Vaikuntha are also seen and spoken of as a geography or region but we know in fact that every"thing" there is personal. No dead energy in the Spiritual Sky.

 

Rather the jivas are individually aware or not is irrelevant. Krsna knows they are His individual sparks. He has them all in mind. It is not an impersonal sheet of energy that persons(jivas) pop out of and then choose the material or spiritual world. It is where jivas awaken to the fact that they are individual persons in the "first" place.

 

How perfect of Krsna's offering of free will that He does not even impose individality upon us. Our very use of free will is itself an act of free will. How astoundingly perfect!

 

From this angle of vision I accept the Brahman of Krsna to be constituted of persons, An example would be the embryo. The embryo should be consider personal in as much as a new born child is personal. Of course a material example.

 

The point is, persons come from the Supreme Person as persons and not out of an impersonal energy of the Supreme Person. So if you all really want to talk about the origin of the soul it can only be from the FORM of the Supreme Lord.

 

It is a secondary question if you came out as a point of consciousness with no specific rasa body or if you came out a cowherd boy already engaged.

 

It is also a meaningless question because in the land of the eternal now beginnings themselves have no meaning. Therefore the debate can only occur from the material side and to continue in the debate necessitates remaining in material consciousness.

 

No I can't provide quotes to back up what I just said. Call it speculation although to me it feels like more.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

"IMO both views are correct but incomplete."

 

I agree. It is both, and only both, at the same time.

 

The arguments that the spiritual world is inconcievable, that there is no time there, that it is nothing like this world, are often used to cover up the shortcomings of the advocated theory. You can cover up just about ANY nonsense with this type of reply.

 

When it is said that this world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, the REFLECTION part is a key component. Yes, the space is there in the spiritual world, and so is time, but they dont have the same LIMITING and CONTROLLING sideeffects these things have in the material world.

 

Thus the tatastha is a real place - just as real as the Vaikuntha planets, and it is full of living entities - coming and going... moving between the two banks: material and spiritual worlds, which are just as real. Denial of the reality of the material and marginal places (worlds) flies in the face of the scriptures and our siddhanta, and closely resembles the mayavada view that it is all one, and the material world is just an illusion only.

 

What comes out of the pores of Mahavishnu is NOT an illusion - it is a real material Universe, and we are really in it. However, the way we see this universe, is only partial and full of illusion. These things are NOT negotiable as far as our siddhanta goes.

 

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[theist]

 

When it is said that this world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, the REFLECTION part is a key component. Yes, the space is there in the spiritual world, and so is time, but they dont have the same LIMITING and CONTROLLING sideeffects these things have in the material world.

Yes and time in the spiritual world is called the ever present Now. "What time is it?" "It's Now." Our past and future conceptions are the pervert reflections.

 

And it is this fact alone that makes the debate over origins such a futile endeavor. It is mental quicksand.

[mahak]

Or, as waters says, "there is no dark side of the moon. Its all dark."

 

Or as dylan says, "theres no reason to get excited".

 

I take your words as valid as well as theistic. hare krsna, ys, mahak

[theist]

 

Thus the tatastha is a real place - just as real as the Vaikuntha planets, and it is full of living entities -

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Yes it is like the dvaita adavaita debate. Words are difficult if not impossible to use in a way that stresses both ideas at the same time.

 

Like in your quote, "it is full of living entities-". This seems to implie that "it" is something other than the living entites themselves and someone may take it that way and then argue the opposing view. This happens all the time and is the reason I find words so frustrating.

 

Words are mere indicators. Signposts are not the territory itself. Talking too much and thinking too much are two of my worst habits. When engaged in excessively they serve the obscure the truth rather than reveal it.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes and time in the spiritual world is called the ever present Now. "What time is it?It's Now." Our past and future conceptions are the pervert reflections.

 

This is where I completely disagree with you. If there is smaranam, there must be a sense of past as these two are inseparable. If you dont remember what happened earlier in the leela, how can the leela go forward? And if you dont remember what happened earlier in the leela, how can this be knowledge (cit)?

 

If we have the memory of only "now" we are no better then protozoic life forms. Prabhupada said that after coming back to the spiritual world one CAN remember his past life, but one is not interested in it. Yet the knowledge and sense of past is present there.

[Kulapavana]

 

Like in your quote, "it is full of living entities-". This seems to implie that "it" is something other than the living entites themselves and someone may take it that way and then argue the opposing view.

 

Living entities require a field of activity (remember ksetra and ksetra-jna?). That field of activity, or real place, is provided by Krsna, through His various energies. Just like he provides the field of activity in the material and spiritual worlds, the marginal (tatastha) world is a real place provided by Him.

[theist]

 

This is where I completely disagree with you. If there is smaranam, there must be a sense of past as these two are inseparable. If you dont remember what happened earlier in the leela, how can the leela go forward? And if you dont remember what happened earlier in the leela, how can this be knowledge (cit)?

This is the same trap. You are trying to impose your conditioned concepts of time onto eternity. "How can it be..." You are saying there can be no lla without the conceptions of past and future. All that means is that you cannot conceive of how it can be. Just because you cannot conceive of something does not mean it is impossible. THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT! We are conditioned by time and therefore have no access, no qualification for understanding the answer. It will be revealed in due course, when we have access to that realm ourselves in an experiential way and not just a clumsy conceptual one.

 

 

 

If we have the memory of only "now" we are no better then protozoic life forms. Prabhupada said that after coming back to the spiritual world one CAN remember his past life, but one is not interested in it. Yet the knowledge and sense of past is present there.

Who said Now means no memory. That is further speculation on your part that you are debating with. Actually that is the state of perfect memory, rememberance of Krsna. I am not trying to described self-realization as eternal Alzheimers or something.

 

Again there is no need to try to get past where we are by mental speculation. This is the cause of all this debate over the last several MONTHS with no resolution.

 

There is a point where we need to lay the thoughts and words down, pray to Krsna for the answer and then listen for it. If He answers we will know if He doesn't we will not know.

 

If we coninue speculating we will not know but think we do, become angry with those that disagree, lose our peace of mind "and how can there be happiness without peace."

[theist]

 

Living entities require a field of activity (remember ksetra and ksetra-jna?). That field of activity, or real place, is provided by Krsna, through His various energies. Just like he provides the field of activity in the material and spiritual worlds, the marginal (tatastha) world is a real place provided by Him.

 

 

We just went over this.

[Kulapavana]

 

Again there is no need to try to past where we are by mental speculation. This is the cause of all this debate over the last several MONTHS with no resolution.

 

Look, if someone is using very nebulous concepts such as "only now exists", "it is inconcievablefree your mind from material concepts" to try to push their expalnation of quite well researched and not too hard to grasp elements of philosophy, it certainly smells like a fraud to me.

 

I have no problem whatsoever grasping the subject matter of our origin from the explanations of previous acharyas like Bhaktivinoda and Bhaktisiddhanta that follow standard Vedic phlosophy. But the contortions that Prabhupada disciples came up with in OOP and now sleepervada look completely bogus to me.

 

I have seen similar fraudsters trying to convince me Kirtanananda was "as good as God" genuine guru, when I took one look at the guy in New Vrindavan in 1988 or 89 and determined he was a total hoax. Thus I dont really care what new nonsense these folks mass produce these days. Be it Drutakarma or Ramai Swami, they are no authority to me on any matter, let alone our siddhanta. This crowd is finished in my book as a source of any real knowledge.

 

Our devotees are often much too gullible, because they were trained to be gullible for years, and because those who were less gullible often left the movement after a short stint -call it natural selection.

 

When it comes to seeking knowledge, you have to be able to trust the source. Since I have very little trust in these guys, I dont much care for what they peddle nowadays. It is not being cynical - it is being pragmatic. I have plenty of faith in the shastra, but not in the concocted ideas people like Drutakarma or Ramai Swami push on Iskcon devotees.

[gHari]

I find the real puzzle is "How does Krsna create something different from Himself?" - unique beings with free will, personality, this tatastha energy, tatastha magic that seems so real, even to Him. Yet we're just a part of Him somehow, and somehow, different. Acintya. I'm very glad it's this way, no matter where I am, in this or any other world.

[Guruvani]

The Sanskrit terminology "tatastha" is properly defined in the Sanskrit dictionary.

 

 

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

 

<!-- SQL query: select buch,st,en from tamil where buch=1 and (st regexp '[[:<:]]tatastha[[:>:]]') order by st --> <table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1</td> <td valign="top"> taTastha</td> <td valign="top">mfn. standing on a declivity or bank</td></tr></tbody></table>

So, in the actual definition of tatastha, we find that tatastha is a place like the bank of a river.

Sometimes the bank of the river is below water and other times it is above water.

 

So, tatastha is a realm where the jiva soul is taking his stand.

It is a dimension beyond time and space from where the soul is manifested by the Supersoul.

 

The Viraja (causal ocean) is the marginal realm between the material and spiritual worlds.

Lord Maha-Vishnu lies down in the marginal realm and begets the jivas.

That is why the jivas are known as marginal.

They were begotten by the energy of Maha-Vishnu from the Viraja - the marginal realm between the material and spiritual world.

 

The jivas of Goloka and Vaikuntha has nothing to do with marginal existence.

They have been accepted within the internal svarupa-shakti of the Lord.

As such, the marginal jiva, upon attaining the potent blessings of sandhini and hladini shakti is taken out of the marginal situation and taken into the internal world of Krishna.

 

Anyone that studies Mahaprabhu's teachings to his disciples should understand that tatastha/marginal means between the material and spiritual worlds.

The personal associates of Krishna in Goloka are not between.

They are IN the spiritual world and not in the marginal position.

 

But, I guess that many people cannot understand this because they refuse to accept higher instruction from the elder Gaudiyas of the sampradaya.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The region of our generation is tatashta. THE THING IS THIS REGION IS NOT IMPERSONAL. THE REGION IS PERSONAL AND IS MADE UP OF THE JIVA'S.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Yes, the jiva's are NOT generated from there AS NEW jivas that some are proposing, we have eternally existed as jiva withut beginning or end.

 

Thank you theist, this is my understanding of Prabhupada’s teachings

Tatastha s’akti, the bonafide meaning, also what does “in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation” mean?.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.8-9

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara

ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

svamsa-vistara — catur-vyuha, avatara-gana

vibhinnamsa jiva — tanra saktite ganana

Expansions of His personal self — like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva — descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities. Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies.

PURPORT

The personal expansions are known as visnu-tattva, and the separated expansions are known as jiva-tattva. Although the jivas (living entities) are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are still counted among His multipotencies.

We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels (Jiva-TATASTHAS) of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, the personification of the internal energy. We are NOT in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or IMPERSONAL location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation WHERE SOULS ARE being constantly “IMPERSONALLY” GENERATED from. WE ARE ETERNAL LIVING BEINGS WITH NO BEGINNING OR END, AS THE BHAGAVAD GITA TELLS US, PERPETUALLY OR ENDLESSLY under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or being a slave to His illusionary energy in the mahat-tattva or material energies). Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self characteristic of OUR JIVA TATASTHA is always serving Krishna, regardless however, we can choose to ignore Krishna and not be aware of who we really and sub-consciously (nitya-baddha) take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu. This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being. Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. In one full potential expression within the eternal presents of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha expressed as who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as or ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality.

Jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva that can established in a loving relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in Goloka, or a loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in Vaikuntha. Nitya-siddha’s have different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down. In fact most never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however imagine or think they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva. The people who claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva usually claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva. The fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva. Because sakti-tattva refers to the general principle of being a sakti of the Lord, and not to a specific type of living entity, therefore they are both. Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy

[Sarva gattah]

From Srimad Bhagavatam 6.19.13

guna-vyaktir iyam devi

vyanjako guna-bhug bhavan

tvam hi sarva-sariry atma

srih sarirendriyasayah

nama-rupe bhagavati

pratyayas tvam apasrayah

Mother Lakshmi, who is here, is the reservoir of all spiritual qualities, whereas You manifest and enjoy all these qualities. Indeed, You are actually the enjoyer of everything. You live as the Supersoul of all living entities, and the goddess of fortune is the form of their bodies, senses and minds. She also has a holy name and form, whereas You are the support of all such names and forms and the cause for their manifestation.

PURPORT

Madhvacarya, the acarya of the Tattvavadis, has described this verse in the following way: “Vishnu is described as yajna personified, and mother Lakshmi is described as spiritual activities and the original form of worship. In fact, they represent spiritual activities and the Supersoul of all yajna. Lord Vishnu is the Supersoul even of Lakshmidevi, but no one can be the Supersoul of Lord Vishnu, for Lord Vishnu Himself is the spiritual Supersoul of everyone.”

According to Madhvacarya, there are two tattvas, or factors. One is independent, and the other is dependent. The first tattva is the Supreme Lord, Vishnu, and the second is the jiva-tattva. Lakshmidevi, being dependent on Lord Vishnu, is sometimes counted among the jivas. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas, however, describe Lakshmidevi in accordance with the following two verses from the Prameya-ratnavali of Baladeva Vidyabhushana. The first verse is a quotation from the Vishnu Purana.

nityaiva sa jagan-mata

vishnoh srir anapayini

yatha sarva-gato vishnus

tathaiveyam dvijottama

vishnoh syuh saktayas tisras

tasu ya kirtita para

saiva sris tad-abhinneti

praha sishyan prabhur mahan

“O best of the brahmanas, Lakshmiji is the constant companion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, and therefore she is called anapayini. She is the mother of all creation. As Lord Vishnu is all-pervading, His spiritual potency, mother Lakshmi, is also all-pervading.” Lord Vishnu has three principal potencies — internal, external and marginal. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has accepted para-sakti, the spiritual energy of the Lord, as being identical with the Lord. Thus she is also included in the independent vishnu-tattva.”

In the Kanti-mala commentary on the Prameya-ratnavali there is this statement:

nanu kvacit nitya-mukta jivatvam lakshmyah svikritam, tatraha — praheti. nityaiveti padye sarva-vyapti-kathanena kalakashthety adi-padya-dvaye, suddho ‘pity ukta ca mahaprabhuna svasishyan prati lakshmya bhagavad-advaitam upadishtam. kvacid yat tasyas tu dvaitam uktam, tat tu tad-avishta-nitya-mukta jivam adaya sangatamas tu.

“Although some authoritative Vaishnava disciplic successions count the goddess of fortune among the ever-liberated living entities (jivas) in Vaikuntha, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in accordance with the statement in the Vishnu Purana, has described Lakshmi as being identical with the vishnu-tattva. The correct conclusion is that the descriptions of Lakshmi as being different from Vishnu are stated when an eternally liberated living entity is imbued with the quality of Lakshmi; they do not pertain to mother Lakshmi, the eternal consort of Lord Vishnu.”

In his his Govinda Bhasya commentary on the Vedanta Sutra, Baladeva Vidhyabhusana adds some more to this:

The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

The Lord’s forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

“Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.”

To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted. As Lord Visnu has limitless transcendental qualities, so does Goddess Laksmi. In the scriptures it is said:

“O Goddess, even if we had tongues like the demigod Brahma, we still could not describe all Your transcendental qualities. O Lotus-eyed Goddess Laksmi, please do not ever abandon your devotees.”

When Lord Visnu assumes different forms, Goddess Laksmi also assumes different forms and follows Him. In the scriptures it is said:

“When Lord Visnu assumes the form of a demigod, Goddess Laksmi assumes the form of a demigoddess. When He assumes the form of a human man, she assumes the form of a human woman. In this way she assumes a form to match the form of Lord Visnu.”

Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi. Sri Krsna is the origin of all the forms of Lord Visnu. In the Purusa-bodhini Upanisad it is said:

“In the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">land</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Gokula</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> in Mathura-mandala, Lord Krsna resides. At His two sides are Radha and Candravali.”

There it is also said:

“Laksmi, Durga, and the Lord’s potencies are expansions of Sri Radha.”

So the plenary expansions of Sri Radha do not belong to a third category of living entity called sakti-tattva. They are sakti-tattva but that refers to the principle of their being the hladini-sakti and the swarupa-sakti of the Lord, which are identical to the Lord.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in his Sri Tattva Sutra:

In Visnu Purana (1.22.53) it is said:

“Just as the illumination of a fire, which is situated in one place, is spread over, the energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Parabrahman, are spread all over the universe.”*

In the Markandeya Purana, Devi-mahatmya, the sage explains:

“O king, now I will describe to you the glories of the goddess. By her power she sustains the entire world.

“She is the potency of Lord Visnu. From her comes transcendental knowledge. You and many others have attained transcendental knowledge by her grace.”

In the Narada-pancaratra, Second Night, Third Chapter, Lord Siva explains:

“The Supreme Lord is one. Still, He is manifested in two forms. One form is female: the potency of Lord Visnu. The other form is male: Lord Visnu.”

From the intro to Srila Prabhupada’s Teachings of Lord Caitanya:

Radha and Krsna are one, and when Krsna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krsna (Radha’s display). Although we speak of “when” Krsna desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditional life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in the absolute or spiritual life there is neither beginning nor end. Yet in order to understand that Radha and Krsna are one and that They also become divided, the question “When?” automatically comes to mind. When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested himself in the separate form of Radharani.

From Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi Lila

CC Adi 4.72: “I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency [hladini]. Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa.”

CC Adi 4.73: Now please listen to how Lord Krsna’s consorts help Him taste rasa and how they help in His pastimes.

CC Adi 4.74-75: The beloved consorts of Lord Krsna are of three kinds: the goddesses of fortune, the queens, and the milkmaids of Vraja, who are the foremost of all. These consorts all proceed from Radhika.

CC Adi 4.76: Just as the fountainhead, Lord Krsna, is the cause of all incarnations, so Sri Radha is the cause of all these consorts.

CC Adi 4.77: The goddesses of fortune are partial manifestations of Srimati Radhika, and the queens are reflections of Her image.

CC Adi 4.78: The goddesses of fortune are Her plenary portions, and they display the forms of vaibhava-vilasa. The queens are of the nature of Her vaibhava-prakasa.

CC Adi 4.79: The Vraja-devis have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

CC Adi 4.80: Without many consorts, there is not such exultation in rasa. Therefore there are many manifestations of Srimati Radharani to assist in the Lord’s pastimes.

CC Adi 4.81: Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna’s pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

The plenary expansions of Krsna’s personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha’s expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilasa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakasa forms. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety. The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Radharani, who are also known as gopis or sakhis. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Sri Krsna, and therefore these expansions from Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krsna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vrndavana. By these expansions of Srimati Radharani’s personal body, She helps Lord Krsna taste the rasa dance and other, similar activities. Srimati Radharani, being the central petal of the rasa-lila flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

[Guruvani]

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109 purport

 

 

Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Kṛṣṇa's marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies.

Marginal means situated between the material and spiritual world.

That is the Viraja.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10 purport,

 

 

The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Virajā River, and beyond the Virajā, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation.

 

The jivatma is existing in the Viraja.

Even right now, our souls are situated in the Viraja and from there getting involved in maya - the karma created by false ego.

[Shakti-Fan]

Here Premaprayojana Prabhu gives an overview of a part of Jaiva Dharma, by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur ----Read This and Faint!

 

 

...Next, Srila Bhaktivinoda asks in Jaiva Dharma, "What is a jiva?" Where does this jiva come from and why? Krsna is the Supreme Absolute Truth. We should know that the absolute Personality of Godhead, according to the sakti with which He is consorting, will manifest Himself in a particular way. Thus, when Krsna is situated in His jiva-sakti, He becomes Baladeva. Then, from Baladeva come unlimited jivas. When Baladeva is the predominating deity of that jiva-sakti, those jivas are called nitya-mukta parsada, eternally liberated associates. They are not called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha refers only to Radhika's kaya-vyuha. Even those jivas who have manifested directly from Baladeva and are always in the spiritual world, though they are eternally perfect, are not called nitya siddha.

They are not called nitya siddha because they are not complete in the same way that Krsna's own expansions or Radharani's own kaya-vyuha are complete. Krsna and His expansions are purna, and Radhika and Her kaya-vyuha are also purna, but the emanations from jiva-sakti are not purna. Yet they are called nitya-mukta parsada jiva. Who are they? Like Nanda Maharaja, all the cows, the sakhas-Subala, Sridama, Dama, Vasudama, Arjuna, Stoka Krsna, Madhumangala, Ujjvala-so many friends. They are all nitya mukta parsada jivas coming from Baladeva. If Krsna will situate Himself in His maya-sakti, then He will manifest His form as purusa-avatara, Maha-Visnu. And if Maha-Visnu will then situate Himself in jiva-sakti, uncountable millions of jivas come. They are called jagatgata jivas. This refers to the jivas from the tatastha position, who have the opportunity to go to the spiritual world or to the material world. They can go to the spiritual world by correctly using their independence, their free will. And those who want to enjoy independently from Krsna come into the material world.

All jivas come from jiva-sakti, but the jivas who manifest when Balarama is the adhistatri devata of the jiva-sakti are nitya mukta parsada. And the jivas who manifest when Maha-Visnu is the adhistatri devata in the form of Paramatma (Ksirodaksayi Visnu) have a chance to come into this world. These jivas are weak, while those who manifested in Goloka Vrndavana, having the support of svarupa-sakti, are very strong and can never fall down. Nevertheless, the jivas coming from Paramatma are essentially the same as the other jivas. Just as nitya-mukta jivas are associates, these jivas are also potentially associates. But because they are weak, because they are not manifested in the shelter of svarupa-sakti in the spiritual world, they have the possibilility of being over powered by the material energy.

To understand the nature of all these jivas, a very important analysis has been given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Krsna is called sat-cit-ananda vigraha. He is the embodiment of sat-cit-ananda (eternity, knowledge, and bliss). His svarupa-sakti comes from His svarupa. That sakti which has come from His svarupa and which is non-different from His svarupa is called svarupa-sakti. So Krsna is sat-cit-ananda vigraha. His svarupa is sat cit ananda. This svarupa-sakti has three vrttis.

There is only one energy of Krsna, svarupa-sakti. How many energies does Krsna have? Only one. Some people say three. Some people say unlimited. No. Only one sakti-that is para-sakti or svarupa-sakti. But depending on the activities performed by that one energy, we give it so many names. And also within the svarupa-sakti there are three vrttis, or functions. One is called hladini-vrtti, one is called samvit-vrtti, one is called sandhini-vrtti. Sandhini-vrtti means existence potency-eternal existence. Samvit-vrtti means knowledge potency-conciousness, cognizance, feeling. And hladini-vrtti means ananda-joy, pleasure, happiness. In sastra these terms have been given: sat, cit and ananda. Otherwise, they are called sandhini, samvit and hladini; or they are called bala, jnana and kriya; or satyam, sivam, sundaram. Many phrases have been used in the sastras but they are all speaking of the same thing. Sat cit ananda/ sandhini, samvit, hladini/ bala, jnana, kriya/ or satyam, sivam, sundaram-they all refer to the existence function, the cognizance function and the bliss function, respectively.

There is only one energy, svarupa-sakti, and that one energy undergoes transformation. Because these three vrttis are present in the svarupa-sakti, when the svarupa-sakti transforms, then these three vrttis continue to be present in that energy, but in a state of vikara, in a transformed condition. Now I'll try to clarify. In svarupa-sakti, what does sandhini do? It makes existence. It makes the dhama, Vrndavan dhama; all the shapes and forms and bodies of living entities there. Every shape, everything that has existence, comes from sandhini-vrtti, that is, eternal existence. Then comes samvit, knowledge potency. In Vaikuntha, it manifests as knowledge-I am the eternal servant of God. Narayana is the Supreme Lord. He is sarva-saktiman, the master of all potencies, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But this samvit-sakti, knowledge potency, does not work in Vrndavana, where samvit is nourished by hladini-vrtti, the pleasure potency. There samvit becomes not knowledge of tattva, philosophy and the position of God, but it becomes sambandha-jnana only. The knowledge of Vrndavana is: you can ask Mother Yasoda, "Can you tell me the 258th sutra of Vedanta?" She doesn't know. What does she know? "O, Krsna is my lala." Actually, she knows Vedanta better than anyone else. Why? Because in beginning of Vedanta, it says, athato brahma jijnasa. What does it mean? Atah means therefore, and athah means tadanantara-afterwards. Therefore, after, one should make some inquiries about the absolute truth, brahma. After what?

After understanding that this world is a place of suffering, after understanding that money cannot save you, after understanding that the bodily relationships between men and women only end in disaster and abysmal suffering, after understanding that the demigods also cannot help you ultimately. Therefore, after understanding all of these things, now ask about the truth-brahma. So, Vedanta advises one to search for the Absolute Truth. But when Krsna wakes up in the morning, He rubs His eyes and cries, "Maiya, Maiya!" and He looks for Mother Yasoda here and there. So Mother Yasoda does not need to know Vedanta, because the Absolute Truth is searching for her. "O Maiya, Maiya, where are you?" This is Bhakti-Vedanta. In the spiritual world, jnana (samvit-sakti) gives relationship. Mother Yasoda knows, Krsna is my lala. He came from my womb. He cannot outsmart me, I know better than Him. Others think that Krsna is my friend, or my beloved. Hladini transforms in so many ways and becomes, prema, sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, bhava, mahabhava. It is the pleasure potency which transforms up to madanakhya mahabhava, and gives all pleasure to Krsna.

When this svarupa-sakti is acting within the mandala of cit-jagat, that means just as this universe is called the solar system (surya-mandala), in the same way, the cit-jagat is one mandala. Krsna is the sun, krsna--surya-sama; maya haya andhakara (CC Madhya 22.31)-in the cit-jagat. Svarupa-sakti acts within the cit-jagat, which is the mandala, the solar system of the spiritual sun, Krsna.. But when that svarupa-sakti comes out from that mandala, it undergoes vikara, transformation. When it transforms, it is called tatastha-sakti. The svarupa-sakti has another vikara, which is of the nature of its shadow, and that is called maya-sakti. Because tatastha-sakti and maya-sakti are both the vikara or parinama, the transformation of svarupa-sakti, the three vrttis of svarupa-sakti must be present in tatastha-sakti and maya-sakti. They will be present in a transformed way. For example, if you speak, your voice sounds a particular way, but if you breathe some helium gas, what will happen? There will be vikara in your vocal cords. It will still be your voice, but transformed and so different; I'm just giving a material example. So in the same way, svarupa-sakti is one and it has three functions, sat, cit, and ananda. When it transforms, it has the same qualities but they are present in a different way. In what way are they different? What is the vrtti of sandhini, samvit and hladini in tatastha-sakti and maya-sakti?

The answer to this gives rise to many more questions. First I'll speak about maya-sakti. When the svarupa-sakti is transformed and has the nature of the shadow of itself, that is called maya-sakti. The transformations of sat-cit-ananda-sandhini, samvit and hladini-are present there. Sandhini (existence) makes all the shapes we see in this world. But what is the difference? These shapes do not last; they are temporary. We have one nose, two eyes-the spiritual body is also like that because the material body is a shadow of the spiritual body. All the things we see here have their origin there. All the rasas from there are manifest here-dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya rasa. They are similar, having the same appearance, but the quality is completely different. That is why Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said, The material world is the dictionary of the spiritual world. What does that mean? In the dictionary, everything is there, everything you can think of you will find there, but it is only words, symbols representing the real thing. Radharani's complexion is golden, so here some complexions are golden. In this world, there is smiling, everything, but this is only like a symbol, a sign of the real thing which is there. Sandhini makes existence here, like a shadow or reflection of that world. That is the functioin of sandhini in maya-sakti.

Samvit-sakti is the knowledge or cognizance potency, the awareness potency which is present in svarupa-sakti in the cit jagat. When it comes in maya-sakti, it manifests in all the forms of material knowledge, including relationships. Maya-sakti is manifesting the idea of relationship-you are my husband, wife, mother, father, etc; or, this is my country. All these types of material knowledge are only the action of samvit-sakti reflected in maya-this is its vikara.

And what does hladini do? She metes out both happiness and distress, all the emotions which are felt by the jiva. This is explained is Visnu Purana:

 

 

hladini sandhini samvit

tvayy eka sarva-samsthitau

hlada-tapa-kari misra

tvayi no guna-varjite

The mixed happiness and distress of the material world is the function of hladini-sakti. This verse from Visnu Purana is quoted by Ramananda Raya to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The happiness and distress we feel in this world is also illusory. The knowledge potency makes us feel that we are related to this body and to our family members and so on. Because everything is temporary and changing, when we lose those things to which our body is related, we experience this loss as distress. We feel happiness when we meet with them and distress when we go away, but this happiness and distress is only the action of the material energy. It is not an action of the soul proper. The soul is only suffering due to identification with the material energy. We have discussed the vrtti of samvit, sandhini and hladini in svarupa-sakti and maya-sakti. Now we come to the jiva, because we are discussing Jaiva Dharma. What is the nature of the jiva? Now, the discussion becomes very interesting. What is the function of sandhini in the jiva? We become very happy and overjoyed to discover that the function of sandhini in the jiva is the spiritual body. The suddha deha, the jiva's extremely subtle, pure form, is already there, but now it is covered over. When samvit and hladini-sakti are transformed in the tatastha sakti, the function of samvit (knowledge potency) is brahma-jnana, knowledge of brahma, nirvisesa-brahma. And the function of hladini in the tatastha-sakti is brahmananda, only the bliss of liberation, mukti, of realizing nirvisesa brahma. The jiva coming from tatastha, though he has existence, can undergo vikara.

Those jivas manifested from the jiva-sakti in the spiritual realm from Balarama can never undergo vikara by associating with material energy-they cannot associate with material energy; it is very far away from them. But the sandhini, the very existence, of those jivas who are close to maya-sakti is of the nature of a transformation of svarupa-sakti. Therefore, they can undergo vikara. The jiva-svarupa can be transformed-acquiring nisarga, his quality of being Krsna-dasa becomes become latent, and therefore he naturally engages in karma, jnana and yoga.

If he will give up all karma and become perfect in either jnana or yoga, then by his austerities, he can detach his senses from the effects of the modes of material nature, and the vikara, his acquired nature, starts to go away. The transformation starts to be reversed by his very hard austerities. When the vikara has gone away completely by his knowledge and hard austerities, he is no longer in a distorted position, and he is no longer affected by the modes of material nature. Now he is mukta, liberated, and he can realize brahma-jnana and brahmananda-only. Because that is the vrtti of samvit and hladini in the tatastha-sakti. When devotees learn this fact for the first time, they panic, Only brahma-jnana and brahmananda are in me? This is a very great mystery. We will delve into this mystery tomorrow.

Try to understand the constitution of the jiva and that he has come from tatastha-sakti. Try to understand the nature of tatastha-sakti, and how the vrttis of svarupa-sakti are present in tatastha-sakti in a transformed way-in the form of the jivas and brahma-jnana and brahmananda. And therefore, whatever the jiva does to become free from nisarga, his acquired nature, even if he is free, his potential is only as far as understanding brahma-jnana and brahmananda. What a drag. Oh, but don't worry. There's a secret, When this mystery of the secret potential of the jiva has been unlocked, then every single tattva-guru-tattva, vaisnava-tattva, diksa, what is sadhu sanga, how much sadhu sanga we need, why we need it, what is nama-tattva, bhakti-tattva-all tattvas at once will become clear, but only when this secret has been unlocked.

[Guruvani]

nice materials.

But, you can't really convice ISKCON types with these sources.

That is why I try to find the evidences in the books of Srila Prabhupada, otherwise these people will never accept.

 

Anyone that accepts Jaiva Dharma like this does not need convincing.

The ones that need the help are the ones that do not accept or study Jaiva Dharma.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Thus, when Krsna is situated in His jiva-sakti, He becomes Baladeva. Then, from Baladeva come unlimited jivas. When Baladeva is the predominating deity of that jiva-sakti, those jivas are called nitya-mukta parsada, eternally liberated associates. They are not called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha refers only to Radhika's kaya-vyuha. Even those jivas who have manifested directly from Baladeva and are always in the spiritual world, though they are eternally perfect, are not called nitya siddha.

They are not called nitya siddha because they are not complete in the same way that Krsna's own expansions or Radharani's own kaya-vyuha are complete. Krsna and His expansions are purna, and Radhika and Her kaya-vyuha are also purna, but the emanations from jiva-sakti are not purna. Yet they are called nitya-mukta parsada jiva. Who are they? Like Nanda Maharaja, all the cows, the sakhas-Subala, Sridama, Dama, Vasudama, Arjuna, Stoka Krsna, Madhumangala, Ujjvala-so many friends. They are all nitya mukta parsada jivas coming from Baladeva. If Krsna will situate Himself in His maya-sakti, then He will manifest His form as purusa-avatara, Maha-Visnu. And if Maha-Visnu will then situate Himself in jiva-sakti, uncountable millions of jivas come. They are called jagatgata jivas. This refers to the jivas from the tatastha position, who have the opportunity to go to the spiritual world or to the material world. They can go to the spiritual world by correctly using their independence, their free will. And those who want to enjoy independently from Krsna come into the material world.

All jivas come from jiva-sakti, but the jivas who manifest when Balarama is the adhistatri devata of the jiva-sakti are nitya mukta parsada. And the jivas who manifest when Maha-Visnu is the adhistatri devata in the form of Paramatma (Ksirodaksayi Visnu) have a chance to come into this world. These jivas are weak, while those who manifested in Goloka Vrndavana, having the support of svarupa-sakti, are very strong and can never fall down. Nevertheless, the jivas coming from Paramatma are essentially the same as the other jivas. Just as nitya-mukta jivas are associates, these jivas are also potentially associates. But because they are weak, because they are not manifested in the shelter of svarupa-sakti in the spiritual world, they have the possibilility of being over powered by the material energy.

[Guruvani]

but, but.......Prabhupada said......!

Read the letters of Prabhupada.

Don't study the writings of Bhaktivinode.

Srila Prabhupada's letters to his misfit disciples are the highest siddhanta.

Don't you know that?

[Shakti-Fan]

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of the previous acaryas.

Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other acaryas. So I was just wondering...

Prabhupada: I never said that.

Amogha: You didn't say that? Oh.

Prabhupada: How is that?

Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous acarya's books.

Prabhupada: No, you should read.

Amogha: We should.

Prabhupada: It is a misunderstanding....we are following the previous acaryas. I never said that.

[Beggar]

 

...Next, Srila Bhaktivinoda asks in Jaiva Dharma, "What is a jiva?" Where does this jiva come from and why? Krsna is the Supreme Absolute Truth. We should know that the absolute Personality of Godhead, according to the sakti with which He is consorting, will manifest Himself in a particular way. Thus, when Krsna is situated in His jiva-sakti, He becomes Baladeva. Then, from Baladeva come unlimited jivas. When Baladeva is the predominating deity of that jiva-sakti, those jivas are called nitya-mukta parsada, eternally liberated associates. They are not called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha refers only to Radhika's kaya-vyuha...

Wow! Notice how when quotes like this appear, the Sleeper-Vadis temporarily disappear. It must really bewilder them that everything they believe does not exist has so much detail. They seem to believe that the "evil" Gaudiya Math has mistranslated the books of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to lure everyone into some kind of "hidden" impersonalism. They should go and read the ISKCON translation, done by the Bengali Sarvabhavana das. They will be stunned to see that all the English translations are pretty much the same. Maybe since Sarvabhavana is from India then he can't be trusted either? But here's the big thing, since everyone who doesn't accept Sleeper-Vada is in their view is an impersonalist or mayavadi, then they better watch out. Just by associating with us they can become contaminated. Didn't you ever wonder why they don't really read any post that is philosophical and then reply. They must have been told by their leader (guru) Ramai Swami, not to read any serious rebuttals to their concocted bizzare theory. He must have told them, "don't look, if you look too carefully then you'll become an impersonalist, a "vardi". Is this for real?

Somebody pinch me.

[theist]

 

I find the real puzzle is "How does Krsna create something different from Himself?" - unique beings with free will, personality, this tatastha energy, tatastha magic that seems so real, even to Him. Yet we're just a part of Him somehow, and somehow, different. Acintya. I'm very glad it's this way, no matter where I am, in this or any other world.

 

Acintya indeed. This is what separates God from the rest of us. How is it possible such a being could exist? It is not reasonable or fathomable yet it could be no other way.

 

At some point the small souls who think so highly of their intellects will tire of the need and attempt to fit the Lord into nice little prepackaged categories that fit nicely and orderly onto the shelves of their tiny brains. Then in a moment of stunned wonder they will only be able to say...."Acintya"!...and then they will begin to know.

[Guruvani]

Tatastha refers to a specific shakti of the Lord - tatastha-shakti.

Tata means "bank" and stha means "to stand or take a position".

 

Tatastha is a description of an energy of the Lord because it is "taking it's position on the bank".

 

The Viraja River/Causal Ocean is the Tata that the jiva is taking his stha or position.

 

Because the Viraja is between the material and spiritual worlds it is like a bank of a river from where the jiva can either go to the material side or go to the spiritual side.

 

So, the jivas that are manifested by Maha-Vishnu are manifested by Maha-Vishnu's tatastha-shakti.

 

The material world is created in the Viraja.

We are in that Viraja, within the pradhana - the material causal principle.

So, we are in the Viraja right now (not Goloka) - we are of the tatastha-shakti the shakti manifested in the Viraja.

 

The jiva doesn't have tatastha-shakti.

He was manifested via Lord Vishnu's tatastha shakti.

 

The jiva is NOT the tatastha-shakti - but just a small particle speck of that tatastha-shakti of Lord Vishnu.

 

The Tata is the Viraja - a place like the bank of a river.

Because Maha-Vishnu manifests his shakti there it is called tatastha-shakti.

 

Jivas of that tatastha-shakti can go to either side - spiritual or material world depending upon the impetus and access.

[Beggar]

Come out Mr. Sleeper-Vadi? Where are you? Please come out of your hole!

Mr. Beggar wants to Play!

[mahak]

Yawn. You rang? Whats with the jiv jago, already?

 

Oh, the truth is the void, eh? prior to the beginningless beginning, none of us had the seed of existance.

 

It dont compute, sorry. G'night.

 

mahaksadasa