tatashta shakti - From my view

[Vedesu]

SLEEPERVADIS, COME OUT TO PLAY-EE-YAY. OH SLEEPERVADIS, BEGGAR WANTS TO PLAY-EE-YAY.

 

[mahak]

O scare me. Lightweight. If you have no realization, then you call people names. 3rd grade (or should I say class).

[Vedesu]

 

O scare me. Lightweight. If you have no realization, then you call people names. 3rd grade (or should I say class).

 

Hmmm. It is true that I'm 3rd class and a lightweight. However, I was just joshin. You weren't. So who's the name caller here.

 

Hehehe.

[mahak]

namin it is gamin it. gangbanger talk. sleepervadi is nowhere in shastra, and is used by those who think they grasp the reality of origins. I know you was joshin, so was I. When assumin the gangsta role, our jokes are dry and cynicall, and usually a challenge (even to ones own motha)

 

Again, my spiritual master teaches,"somehow or other, we have forgotton, and the yuga dharma is what revives us to consciousness. We call madhyama adhikari a clearing stage of bhakti, where clarity replaces the fog of kanistha adhikari.

 

We can discuss without namecalling. Sleepervadi is not a word of good intent and well wishes, it is a battle word, a word used to belittle ones opponant . Vaisnava ettiquette has always dictated refraining from such calling out of ones philosophical opponant.

 

So, its all a joke. But it was a good thread, and theist made a great point in confiding personal realization, and others have nicely done the same.

 

hare krsna, the not so funny mad dog stare gangsta rappa mad mahax

[Vedesu]

Where's Gene Pitney when you need him. Maybe he could sort this whole mess out. Which reminds me... I once wrote a song, but I can't read music so I don't know what it is. Every once in a while I'll be listening to the radio and I say, "I think I might have written that."

[Guruvani]

 

Here Premaprayojana Prabhu gives an overview of a part of Jaiva Dharma, by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur ----Read This and Faint!

 

 

When Baladeva is the predominating deity of that jiva-sakti, those jivas are called nitya-mukta parsada, eternally liberated associates. They are not called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha refers only to Radhika's kaya-vyuha. Even those jivas who have manifested directly from Baladeva and are always in the spiritual world, though they are eternally perfect, are not called nitya siddha.

 

That seems to be at odds with what Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur comments:

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.10.13 purport,

 

 

Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says:

 

evaḿ prahlādasyāḿśena sādhana-siddhatvaḿ nitya-siddhatvaḿ ca nāradādivaj jñeyam.

 

There are two classes of devotees — the sādhana-siddha and the nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja is a mixed siddha; that is, he is perfect partly because of executing devotional service and partly because of eternal perfection. Thus he is compared to such devotees as Nārada. Formerly, Nārada Muni was the son of a maidservant, and therefore in his next birth he attained perfection (sādhana-siddhi) because of having executed devotional service. Yet he is also a nitya-siddha because he never forgets the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

So, Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur says that Narada Muni is amongst the nitya-siddhas which conflicts with Bhaktivinodes version (according to Premaprayojana prabhu) that only the kaya-vyuha of Srimati Radharani are nitya-siddha.

 

Is it just me or is the contradiction obvious to others?

[mahak]

 

Where's Gene Pitney when you need him. Maybe he could sort this whole mess out. Which reminds me... I once wrote a song, but I can't read music so I don't know what it is. Every once in a while I'll be listening to the radio and I say, "I think I might have written that."

 

Half heaven, half heartache? Or maybe you were thinking the more gangbanger friendly "man who shot liberty valance". :eek:

 

And, yeah, Ive heard my stuff on the radio, others gittin good bucks lie dat.

 

Ever go to a songwriters showcase, big ones in nice clubs that has awesome recording engineers there to give yall a chance a stardom? Well, need I say more, they have really good tunes and lyrics without any mention of names on those recordings so their sponsors may even float them some new piece of computerized equipment if they would cut em a CD of that lady livin down by the river.

 

Sad, but I knew the one doing this criminal activity. But his competitor lifted a few of my lyrics before.

 

Getting back to topic, the rolling stones did a song when Brian Jones was there, before jagger had him offed:eek: , titled, "sitting on a fence." Great song, like all the brian jones era, they were once a good band. Lilith leaning, but thats okay. The point is, that was my song.

 

I called this song, tatashta shakti. There is gods throne, and there is his feet, which do I grab.

 

While Im pondering this decision, Im stuck (like tar mixed with burning lava) thinking water, earth, air, fire, and ether are my substance, and that the intelligence from my mind gives me the idea that I AM THE ONE. Im not matter, but Ive magnetically attracted all this ooze, like the old lady in the excellent flick "Labyrinth". Even the demigods think Im matter because of all the layers of much sticking to me.

 

But burning in my heart is another reality, hidden but there (I dare not say sleeping but stirring:eek: )

 

I guess we have to grasp multidimensional physics, theory of simultaneous reality, to get it. "Im just sitting on the fence, you can say Ive got no sense, trying to make up my mind, feeling spirit all the time, so Im sitting on the fence."

 

Good song I wrote, eh. Dem bastards, I oughtta sue.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Vedesu]

 

While Im pondering this decision, Im stuck (like tar mixed with burning lava) thinking water, earth, air, fire, and ether are my substance, and that the intelligence from my mind gives me the idea that I AM THE ONE. Im not matter, but Ive magnetically attracted all this ooze, like the old lady in the excellent flick "Labyrinth". Even the demigods think Im matter because of all the layers of much sticking to me.

 

That was profound, poetic, and eloquent, Mahak prabhu.

 

And yes, I was thinking of the gang-banger friendly ballad: Liberty Valance.

[mahak]

hes sitting on the fenced, but seems to be lookin the other way, south. "hey blood, Mo mattah for me mudder, brodder".

[Guruvani]

 

 

But burning in my heart is another reality

 

 

 

[kailasa]

tatastha is all souls - souls material world and souls spiritual world, they all tatastha. this convesation "tatastha-not tatastha" rise from speculations Gm about fall soul.

[kailasa]

every soul hae eternal spiritual body, home souls is spiritual world, another way word "eternal" senseless.

 

"nitya-mukta" - if read in fool logic, then nobody not take moksa, this is exampl false logik in sastra

[mahak]

because when one is nitya siddha, loosely translated eternal perfection, there is no time in which he was nitya baddha (even if he was.) Little boy loses mom, this is miserable condition, so little boy associates with bhaktivedantas, and misery turns to wisdom, and presto, nitya siddha.

 

One must understand the way of touch stone. Gurudeva is like touchstone, and Can and does turn nitya baddha into nitya siddha.

 

Some may contradict because they do not accept transcendence other than gopis. But there are innumerable beings that are eternally liberated who have distinct relationships, nitya siddha relationships, meaning eternally perfect, with the supreme Lord.

 

Can we knock at Lord Narayanas door? Can we observe the household activities of Krsna with his wives? Narada can, thus his eternaql perfection is that he comes and goes as he pleases, both in this material world, the vaikunthas, including goloka.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

That seems to be at odds with what Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur comments:

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.10.13 purport,

 

 

 

So, Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur says that Narada Muni is amongst the nitya-siddhas which conflicts with Bhaktivinodes version (according to Premaprayojana prabhu) that only the kaya-vyuha of Srimati Radharani are nitya-siddha.

 

Is it just me or is the contradiction obvious to others?

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur was extremely uncoventional and controversial. It's clear that he was using a different definition of nitya siddha, same word with a different meaning.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur was extremely uncoventional and controversial. It's clear that he was using a different definition of nitya siddha, same word with a different meaning.

 

Well, if the version of Bhaktivinode cannot be supported in any of the previous writings of the great Goswamis of Vrindavan, then I guess I would agree that his version is controversial.

 

I would guess that depending upon the context and level of discussion it could be said that in Goloka proper the nitya-siddha classification has a special meaning over and above the common Bhagavat siddhanta.

 

I would never say Bhaktivinode is wrong.

My thinking is that depending upon different relative levels of discussion the nitya-siddha classification can vary according to whether they are talking about internal associates in Goloka or liberated jivas coming up from the ranks of the conditioned souls.

 

I think that if we properly understand the context and the subject matter under discussion we can see how both Bhaktivinode and Chakravarti Thakur are both right in terms of the subject matter concerned.

 

Within Goloka, the nitya-siddhas apparently possess a certain level of perfection that sadhana-siddhas and mukta-jivas cannot be accredited with.

 

So, in that sense, within the madhurya-rasa the classification of nitya-siddha has a special meaning above the generic meaning applied to eternally perfected living beings coming from the conditioned souls of the tatastha-shakti.

 

The higher devotees understand that the original gopis of Goloka are nitya-siddha of a higher kind than those coming up through sadhana-siddhi or kripa-siddhi.

[Guruvani]

I personally think that the mixing and mingling of the term nitya-siddha with sadhana-siddha and kripa-siddha is confusing.

 

I don't like when a sadhana-siddha is called nitya-siddha.

I prefer if sadhana-siddha is sadhana-siddha and nitya-siddha is nitya-siddha.

 

I don't think that those who have fallen from the brahmajyoti and then attained perfection in devotional service should be lumped in with those eternal associates of Krishna who NEVER fell down or contacted the material energy but have been with Krishna eternally in perfection and eternally making spiritual advancement before the conditioned jivas ever heard of Krishna.

[kailasa]

if some siddha it is no priblem,

nitya siddha,sadhana siddha or kripa siddha it is one level

 

 

So we should always remember there are three categories: nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha and kåpa-siddha. But when they become siddha, perfect, by any process, they are on the same level. There is no distinction.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The 22 details about <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and His tatastha s’akti

 

 

1. - By virtue of His internal energy, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. - By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exhibits Himself as the living entities.

3. - And by means of His external energy <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exhibits Himself as material energy.

4. - We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels of Krishna as His marginal energy, also known as His marginal living entities or Jiva-tatastha’s.

<st1:place w:st="on"></st1:place>

<st1:place w:st="on">5. - Krishna is</st1:place> the cause of all causes, the personification of the internal energy and the facilitator and maintainer of His external material energy.

6 - Tatastha is not a region in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or impersonal location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation.

7. - Jiva souls are not being constantly “impersonally” generated and created from the brahmajyoti. We are eternal living beings with no beginning or end, as the Bhagavad gita tells us

8. - We are perpetual jiva souls with no commencement or termination, as the Bhagavad gita tells us.

9. - The marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) are endlessly under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or be a slave to His (as the Maha-Vishnu expansion) illusionary energy in His mahat-tattva or material creation.

10. - Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self characteristic of our jiva tatastha, is always serving Krishna, regardless.

11. - However, we can choose to ignore <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and not be aware of who we really and (nitya-baddha) and take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

12. - This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

 

13. - There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva

14. - Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

15. - Tatastha s’akti is not a position; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being under the influence of either the <st1:place w:st="on">Superior</st1:place> energy or the inferior energy eternally.

16. - The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha.

17. - The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

18. - The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

19. - The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

20. - Some claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva, they claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva, the fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva.

21. - Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

22. - The full possible expression of the jiva tatastha, is within the eternal ‘present’ of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha are expressed there as who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as our perpetual identity, personality and individuality that is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna in our perpetual ‘svarupa’ as nitya siddha.

[theist]

[...]

 

The life history of many such devotees is almost the same because there is always symmetry between the early lives of all great devotees of the Lord. According to Jiva Gosvami, Maharaja Parikshit must have heard about the childhood pastimes of Lord Krishna at Vrindavana, for he used to imitate the pastimes with his young playmates. According to Sridhara Svami, Maharaja Parikshit used to imitate the worship of the family Deity by elderly members. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti also confirms the viewpoint of Jiva Gosvami. So accepting either of them, Maharaja Parikshit was naturally inclined to Lord Krishna from his very childhood. He might have imitated either of the above-mentioned activities, and all of them establish his great devotion from his very childhood, a symptom of a maha-bhagavata. Such maha-bhagavatas are called nitya-siddhas, or souls liberated from birth. But there are also others, who may not be liberated from birth but who develop a tendency for devotional service by association, and they are called sadhana-siddhas. There is no difference between the two in the ultimate issue, and so the conclusion is that everyone can become a sadhana-siddha, a devotee of the Lord, simply by association with the pure devotees. The concrete example is our great spiritual master Sri Narada Muni. In his previous life he was simply a boy of a maidservant, but through association with great devotees he became a devotee of the Lord of his own standard, unique in the history of devotional service. SB 2.3.15

[suchandra]

 

No I can't provide quotes to back up what I just said. Call it speculation although to me it feels like more.

 

Hare Krsna

Don't know if this is the right quote, may be it is?

 

The Origin of the Soul

 

http://www.vrindavan.org/English/Books/GM/GMIIIb.html

From 1981 to 1996 a controversy arose within the ISKCON limb of the Gaudiya Math branch of the Chaitanya tree concerning the origin of the soul. Thus, it will be briefly mentioned here that the Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta, as taught by our acharyas, perfectly clarifies the fact that the jivas come from Sri Krishna's tatastha sakti (marginal potency) and have not fallen down from the personal association with Lord Krishna in Goloka, or from the association of Lord Narayan in Vaikuntha. In fact, all four Vaisnava sampradayas are in agreement with respect to this topic. Statements to the contrary (such as those found in Back to Godhead etc.) or those which lend themselves to interpretation, can be understood as simplifications within a framework which does not require siddhantic clarification. At any rate, the secrets of the origin of the soul are well kept by our Supreme Lord who reserves all rights to fully facilitate His loving lila, and who does not oblige anyone to have a relationship with Him.

 

[Svarupa]

Who cares what some nonsense scholar says

 

This is the fact according to Srila Prabhupada

 

The full possible expression of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual ‘present’ of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha are expressed there as who we really are in our endless body within that realm of perpetual ‘presents’

 

It is there our perpetual identity, personality and individuality is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna in our perpetual ‘svarupa’ body as nitya siddha, even if we sometimes forget that fact and 'dream' or 'think' we are in the material world.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist]

No suchandra. Thanks though.

[Beggar]

The realm of perpetual 'presents',

 

 

 

 

 

[Svarupa]

 

 

The 22 FACTS ABOUT OUR ORIGIN

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

1. - By virtue of His internal energy, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> and His tatastha s’akti <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = " /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. - By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exhibits Himself as the living entities.

3. - And by means of His external energy <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exhibits Himself as material energy.

4. - We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels of Krishna as His marginal energy, also known as His marginal living entities or Jiva-tatastha’s.

<st1:place w:st="on"></st1:place>

<st1:place w:st="on">5. - Krishna is</st1:place> the cause of all causes, the personification of the internal energy and the facilitator and maintainer of His external material energy.

6 - Tatastha is not a region in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or impersonal location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation.

7. - Jiva souls are not being constantly “impersonally” generated and created from the brahmajyoti. We are eternal living beings with no beginning or end, as the Bhagavad gita tells us

8. - We are perpetual jiva souls with no commencement or termination, as the Bhagavad gita tells us.

9. - The marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) are endlessly under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or be a slave to His (as the Maha-Vishnu expansion) illusionary energy in His mahat-tattva or material creation.

10. - Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self characteristic of our jiva tatastha, is always serving Krishna, regardless.

11. - However, we can choose to ignore <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and not be aware of who we really and (nitya-baddha) and take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

12. - This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

 

13. - There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva

14. - Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

15. - Tatastha s’akti is not a position; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being under the influence of either the <st1:place w:st="on">Superior</st1:place> energy or the inferior energy eternally.

16. - The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha.

17. - The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

18. - The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

19. - The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

20. - Some claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva, they claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva, the fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva.

21. - Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

22. - The full possible expression of the jiva tatastha, is within the eternal ‘present’ of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha are expressed there as who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as our perpetual identity, personality and individuality that is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna in our perpetual ‘svarupa’ as nitya siddha.

This is the facts according to Srila Prabhupada

 

The full possible expression of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual ‘present’ of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha are expressed there as who we really are in our endless body within that realm of perpetual ‘presents’

 

It is there our perpetual identity, personality and individuality is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna in our perpetual ‘svarupa’ body as nitya siddha, even if we sometimes forget that fact and 'dream' or 'think' we are in the material world.

 

Hare Krishna

[Vedesu]

 

 

And here's a nice horsey who has the presents of mind to be in the eternal present.