tatashta shakti - From my view

Beggar · December 17, 2007

7. - Jiva souls are not being constantly “impersonally” generated and created from the brahmajyoti. We are eternal living beings with no beginning or end, as the Bhagavad gita tells us

What if Krsna desires to create, manifest or expand new jivas? Does He have the power to do such a thing? Do you think that the Lord can pass an elephant through the eye of a needle? Is the Supreme law maker subject to His own laws? Like I've quoted before, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that if the Lord wants to annihilate the existence of a jiva, He has the power to do so, although the devotees do not like to think of such a thing. Svarat, means independent. He is independent of His own laws and everything takes place by His divine will.

gHari · December 17, 2007

And here's a nice horsey who has the presents of mind to be in the eternal present.

Advaita ?

Sarva gattah · December 17, 2007

I find the real puzzle is "How does Krsna create something different from Himself?" - unique beings with free will, personality, this tatastha energy, tatastha magic that seems so real, even to Him. Yet we're just a part of Him somehow, and somehow, different. Acintya. I'm very glad it's this way, no matter where I am, in this or any other world.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.8-9

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara

ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

svamsa-vistara — catur-vyuha, avatara-gana

vibhinnamsa jiva — tanra saktite ganana

Expansions of His personal self — like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva — descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities. Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies.

PURPORT

"The personal expansions are known as visnu-tattva, and the separated expansions are known as jiva-tattva. Although the jivas (living entities) are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are still counted among His multipotencies".

We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels (Jiva-TATASTHAS) of Krishna, the personification of the internal energy.

We are NOT in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or IMPERSONAL location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation WHERE SOULS ARE being constantly “IMPERSONALLY” GENERATED or CREATED from from.

WE ARE ETERNAL LIVING BEINGS WITH NO BEGINNING OR END, AS THE BHAGAVAD GITA TELLS US, PERPETUALLY OR ENDLESSLY under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or being a slave to His illusionary energy in the mahat-tattva or material energies).

Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self characteristic of OUR JIVA TATASTHA is always serving Krishna, regardless.

However, we can choose to ignore Krishna and not be aware of who we really and sub-consciously (nitya-baddha) take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being.

Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

Sarva gattah · December 17, 2007

Ghari don't lower yourself to the mundane who have the mentality of karmi's'. :rolleyes: They have no shastric comeback, only their nonsense mind games, that is really telling us that they are not intelligent, nor devotionally ready "or pure enough", to understand the true facts of their origin.

This is for those who are prepared to look through the rubbish only to ignore it, when they have found the gold.

Here is that Gold given to us by Srila Prabhupada -

The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land.

Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land.

The jiva tatastha can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

However, regardless of this fact, the jiva tatastha's full potential expression is perpetually found within the eternal presents of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha express ourslves there in our full potential in Krishna's service eternally.

It is there in Goloka or Vaikuntha WE ARE who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as or ‘our’ endless nitya siddha identity, personality, individuality serving in Krishna Lila.

The jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva that is 'eternally established' as their full potential as nitya siddha in a loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka, or a loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in Vaikuntha.

Nitya-siddha’s have different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down. In fact most jiva tatastha's NEVER allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by the non Krishna conscious 'dream state' or nitya baddha consciousness.

The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however 'imagine', 'think' or 'dream' they, do while most never enter the nitya baddha world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva. The people who claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva usually claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva.

The fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva. Because sakti-tattva refers to the general principle of being a sakti of the Lord, and not to a specific type of living entity, therefore they are both. Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy"

Beggar · December 17, 2007

We are NOT in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or IMPERSONAL location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation WHERE SOULS ARE being constantly “IMPERSONALLY” GENERATED or CREATED from from.

This is like a little kid who can't harmonize opposite conceptions. That's why the Sleeper-Vadis have minds like ten year olds. They cannot understand how different thoughts can be used by different acaryas to try to explain what is really beyond our intelligence. They have no grasp of acintya bhed[a]bheda tattva, that these truths exist simultaneously with each other, are one but different and are inconceivable to our finite minds and intelligence. The Sleeper-Vadi philosophy is one of absolute dualism akin to mainstream Christianity.

Shakti-Fan · December 17, 2007

[sripad Prema Prayojana Prabhu:] "Due to his being opposed to Krsna consciousness, the conditioned soul is punished by the witch of the external energy."

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Why are they being punished? What have they done wrong? Here is the point. Try to understand. They have done something wrong and that is why Krsna's maya is punishing them. What is the defect? What have they done wrong? You should know that here 'nitya-baddha' means 'anadi-baddha.'They are considered 'eternal baddha' because they are conditioned from the beginning of time. They have never served Krsna. They have not relished the sweetness of serving Krsna. Although they don't know anything about this, still they are eternal servants by their constitutional position. That is why a word has come here: tatastha-sakti. What is tatastha-sakti? It is the marginal potency.

["The jivas have grown out of the jiva-sakti of Krsna. Cit–sakti is Krsna's plenary sakti, whereas as the jiva-sakti is the incomplete sakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic cit. Krsna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of sakti He applies. When He is established in His essential cit-sakti, He reveals His essential nature as Krsna Himself on the one hand, and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntba. When He desired to have His nitya parisada, eternal servitors in His transcendental plane of Goloka Vrndavana, Vaikuntha etc., then, through Baladeva, He created those eternal associates as nitya-mukta jivas in those divine worlds. He reveals or manifests the three forms of Visnu: Karanodakasayi, Ksirokakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In Vraja He reveals His own nature as Krsna, with cit in fullness. As Baladeva He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Himself as Sri Krsna. Again, in Vaikuntha, as Maha Sankarsana, He reveals or manifests the eternally free associate jivas for service to Sri Narayana. Mahavisnu, the incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-sakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha-sakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till, by dint of God's grace they get shelter under the hladini-sakti, they are liable to be overcome by maya." (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma, ch. 15)]

Krsna has His svarupa-sakti, and that sarupa-sakti has three vrttis. Vrttis means?

[sripad Prema Prayojana Prabhu:] Functions. Three functions.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] What are these functions? Hladini, samvit, and sandini.

Though they are servants by constitution, those jivas have never been in Goloka Vrindavan. Never. They are from the marginal point, and that marginal point is called tatastha-sakti. Tatastha-sakti is one of the saktis of svarup-sakti, but it is not full. A certain type of jiva has come from there, either from Baladeva in Goloka Vrndavan or from Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha; but not all jivas. Those jivas who are always serving Krsna are called nitya-unumuka to Krsna. They are always serving. This second kind of jiva is coming from Narayana, that is, Karanodaksayi Visnu. That jiva is tatastha-sakti. Srila Jiva Gosvami has clarified this. He states: 'Tadaivam anantam eva jiva'. There are ananta, unlimited, jivas emanating from tatastha-sakti and, from there, some are bahiramukha. This means they turn away from Krsna and enter the material world.

This place, this material world, is like a svapnasthana, a dream-place. Try to understand this. We are now in full worldly knowledge. It seems that we are awake, that someone else is dreaming, and that someone else is fast asleep without dreaming at all. But actually this place is like a dream-place. When we see any dream, we are neither fast asleep nor in such deep sleep that we are fully unconscious. Because he is part of cid-vastu, spiritual substance, the conditioned jiva is in a dream-like state, but he is thinking that he is in full consciousness.

The tastatha-sakti jiva comes from Karanodakasayee Visnu, and then comes out through His divine light-filled glance. From there, from that light, Krsna has given the anadi-baddha jivas the intelligence and freedom to consider, "What should I do?" There is a very fine imaginary line between paraloka, the transcendental world, and this loka, the material world. Krsna gave the jiva some freedom, saying, "From here you can see this world of maya, and from here you can see towards the spiritual world. It then depends on you what you choose. I will give a minute of time only. You should at once decide." When certain jivas somehow looked towards this world, they were attracted and decided that they should relish it. As for those who looked from tatastha-sakti and were attracted to Krsna, Yogamaya at once gave them the power to come and serve Krsna for eternity.

cbrahma · December 17, 2007

The personal includes the impersonal but not vice versa.

It isn't a simple dualism. If the impersonal brahmajyoti included the fullness of personal consciousness fall down from it would not be inevitable.

Beggar · December 17, 2007

The personal includes the impersonal but not vice versa.
It isn't a simple dualism. If the impersonal brahmajyoti included the fullness of personal consciousness fall down from it would not be inevitable.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? Could you explain this a little further.

Beggar · December 17, 2007

...They are always serving. This second kind of jiva is coming from Narayana, that is, Karanodaksayi Visnu. That jiva is tatastha-sakti. Srila Jiva Gosvami has clarified this. He states: 'Tadaivam anantam eva jiva'. There are ananta, unlimited, jivas emanating from tatastha-sakti and, from there, some are bahiramukha. This means they turn away from Krsna and enter the material world.
This place, this material world, is like a svapnasthana, a dream-place. Try to understand this. We are now in full worldly knowledge. It seems that we are awake, that someone else is dreaming, and that someone else is fast asleep without dreaming at all. But actually this place is like a dream-place. When we see any dream, we are neither fast asleep nor in such deep sleep that we are fully unconscious. Because he is part of cid-vastu, spiritual substance, the conditioned jiva is in a dream-like state, but he is thinking that he is in full consciousness.

The tastatha-sakti jiva comes from Karanodakasayee Visnu, and then comes out through His divine light-filled glance. From there, from that light, Krsna has given the anadi-baddha jivas the intelligence and freedom to consider, "What should I do?" There is a very fine imaginary line between paraloka, the transcendental world, and this loka, the material world. Krsna gave the jiva some freedom, saying, "From here you can see this world of maya, and from here you can see towards the spiritual world. It then depends on you what you choose. I will give a minute of time only. You should at once decide." When certain jivas somehow looked towards this world, they were attracted and decided that they should relish it. As for those who looked from tatastha-sakti and were attracted to Krsna, Yogamaya at once gave them the power to come and serve Krsna for eternity.

The Sleeper-Vadi fanatics have us arguing over what is actually beyond ALL our arguments - sucked in again! Curses!

Look at these statements (thoughts):

The tastatha-sakti jiva comes from Karanodakasayee Visnu, and then comes out through His divine light-filled glance. From there, from that light, Krsna has given the anadi-baddha jivas the intelligence and freedom to consider, "What should I do?" There is a very fine imaginary line between paraloka, the transcendental world, and this loka, the material world. Krsna gave the jiva some freedom, saying, "From here you can see this world of maya, and from here you can see towards the spiritual world. It then depends on you what you choose. I will give a minute of time only. You should at once decide."

Look at this one, "There is a very fine imaginary line between paraloka, the transcendental world, and this loka, the material world."

Imaginary, wow, try to explain that!

Then he gives an analogy, [Krsna is] saying, "From here you can see this world of maya, and from here you can see towards the spiritual world. It then depends on you what you choose. I will give a minute of time only. You should at once decide." In other word it is something like this but not exactly. So what is all this obsession with knowing exactly what is IS? This is what happens when the desire for knowledge becomes superior than the desire to engage in devotional service. Knowledge, jnana should only be a servant of bhakti. Knowledge is only there to increase our sraddha (faith) in the path of bhakti.

But, now the opposite idea - if one doesn't have the proper conception, how can one advance in devotional service, bhakti?

Srila Jiva Gosvami has clarified this. He states: 'Tadaivam anantam eva jiva'. There are ananta, unlimited, jivas emanating from tatastha-sakti and, from there, some are bahiramukha. This means they turn away from Krsna and enter the material world.

The Sleeper-Vadis would have us believe that Sripad Narayana Maharaj is lying, or that his guru, Srila Kesava Maharaj was lying and that they are puting words into Srila Jiva Gosvami's mouth. Why would they lie? Because their theory goes that they are all secretely Mayavadis and they are are involved in some kind of conspiricy to undermine personalism. So it is clear that Sleeper-Vad is a childish, dualistic concept which is also justified by a paranoid view of reality.

cbrahma · December 17, 2007

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? Could you explain this a little further.

One automatically obtains the sun rays when one obtains the sun globe.

But obtaining the sun rays does not automatically obtain the sun globe.

It's Vedic set theory.

Beggar · December 17, 2007

One automatically obtains the sun rays when one obtains the sun globe.
But obtaining the sun rays does not automatically obtain the sun globe.

It's Vedic set theory.

In post #57 you titled it "not opposite but partial". Theorectically one could argue that the sun's rays are only part of the sun therefore they don't really have a separate existence. Another person could argue that since a globe is made up of infinite rays emanating from it's center and that the sun is a globe, that the sun is really an object that is made up of infinite sun rays. To take a partial explanation and use it as an opposing concept to the full truth is what I am talking about. Opposing may not mean that such a thought is directly opposite, 180 degrees which is not necessary since there are almost unlimited angles of vision in the thought world. But when we are refering to a duality even if ideas that partially contain the truth they can be viewed as opposite when they are used to deny the total reality. In a dualistic system the "whole" truth can also be used to deny a partial included truth. Suppose through scientific instruments I detect a sun ray, millions of miles away from the sun. One person would say that the sun rays exist in this region or place. An adversary could say that the sun rays are just extensions of the sun, so that there is no sun rays "place". This is similar to the Sleeper-Vadis argument that the tatastha is not a place. The reason that they are so charged against the concept that the tatastha is a loka or place is that such an idea effectively negates and explodes their entire theory.

Beggar · December 17, 2007

Where Do the Fallen Souls Fall From?, (an excerpt)

by Jayadvaita Swami

from Back to Godhead, May-June 1993

Don’t Figure It Out—Get Out

Ultimately, Srila Prabhupada would stress, puzzling over when we fell or where we fell from won’t solve our problem. “The conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krishna consciousness and immediately join Krishna.”

Again: “One should know he is in conditioned life and try to cure it… . Forgetfulness of Krishna is the disease, so let us keep ourselves always in Krishna consciousness and get out of the disease. That is healthy life.”

Still again: “Rather than taking account of how things happened that [we] came here, our best occupation is to get out of the scene by constantly chanting Hare Krishna and being engaged in the transcendental service of Lord Krishna.”

The advice is clear enough. But still the intellect hangs on, trying to figure out what can’t be figured out. So we delve into books to find out what was taught by other great acaryas (spiritual teachers) of the past. And what do we find? Different teachers—all Krishna conscious—seem to express different views. So then what? We take sides with one view or another, or simply become confused. Our mental circuits start to burn out.

Srila Prabhupada’s spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, therefore gave this advice. We should avoid, he said, “vain empirical wranglings,” which he called “false and full of specious verbosity.” He reminds us, “What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons.”

When such pure devotees disagree, he says, there is “the element of mystery in their verbal controversies.” And “those whose judgment is made of mundane stuff” can’t “enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees.” Lacking pure devotion, such people “are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views.” Therefore, he counsels, whenever such disputes arise about the pastimes of the Lord, we should remember what was taught by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His associates the Gosvamis, “that the Truth Absolute is ever characterized by spiritual variegatedness that transcends the variegatedness of mundane phenomena; but He is never featureless.”

Endless Arguments: Maya’s Trick

The Mahabharata tells us that we can’t know the truth simply by logic and arguments (tarko ‘pratistah). Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: “There’s no use arguing over that which is inconceivable.” After all, it’s inconceivable.

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us. Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.4.31):

yac-chaktayo vadatam vadinam vai

vivada-samvada-bhuvo bhavanti

kurvanti caisam muhur atma-moham

tasmai namo ’nanta-gunaya bhumne

“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited transcendental qualities. Acting from within the cores of the hearts of all philosophers, who propagate various views, He makes them forget their own souls while sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing among themselves. Thus He creates within this material world a situation in which they are unable to come to a conclusion. I offer my obeisances unto Him.”

Therefore, the student in transcendental science is best advised to simply accept what has been accepted by his own bona fide Krishna conscious acarya, or spiritual master. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says, “It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him.”

The Crow-and-Fruit Philosophy

To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about where the soul fell from, Srila Prabhupada once gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit. On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing. The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

“At the present moment you are in maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy.”

cbrahma · December 17, 2007

In post #57 you titled it "not opposite but partial". Theorectically one could argue that the sun's rays are only part of the sun therefore they don't really have a separate existence. Another person could argue that since a globe is made up of infinite rays emanating from it's center and that the sun is a globe, that the sun is really an object that is made up of infinite sun rays. To take a partial explanation and use it as an opposing concept to the full truth is what I am talking about. Opposing may not mean that such a thought is directly opposite, 180 degrees which is not necessary since there are almost unlimited angles of vision in the thought world. But when we are refering to a duality even if ideas that partially contain the truth they can be viewed as opposite when they are used to deny the total reality. In a dualistic system the "whole" truth can also be used to deny a partial included truth. Suppose through scientific instruments I detect a sun ray, millions of miles away from the sun. One person would say that the sun rays exist in this region or place. An adversary could say that the sun rays are just extensions of the sun, so that there is no sun rays "place". This is similar to the Sleeper-Vadis argument that the tatastha is not a place. The reason that they are so charged against the concept that the tatastha is a loka or place is that such an idea effectively negates and explodes their entire theory.

You can argue whatever except that it is the case that sunlight, does not 'capture' the sun itself but that the sun 'captures' the sunlight.

We don't live in the sun globe just because we have sunlight. If we did live in the sun globe we could claim very easily that we have sunlight.

Beggar · December 17, 2007

You can argue whatever except that it is the case that sunlight, does not 'capture' the sun itself but that the sun 'captures' the sunlight.
We don't live in the sun globe just because we have sunlight. If we did live in the sun globe we could claim very easily that we have sunlight.

I was making a theorectical argument to illustrate that there are unlimited opposites. This conception is different than polar opposites. Whether ideas are partially opposite or polar opposite they can be harmonized by a process that Hegel employed called the "dialectic"which includes thesis, antithesis and sythesis. The harmonizing aspect of the dialectic is very similar to "oneness and difference". Srila Sridhar Maharaj was fond of Hegel's dialectic.

Vedesu · December 17, 2007

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us. Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya.

Our puny minds can only understand this tattva so far, as in the final analysis it is acintya. Ultimately, our destination is what is important. Anyone who has studied Srila Sridhara Maharaja's teachings knows that as a Rupanuga maha-bhagavata Sadhu and Acarya, he taught the highest conception of personalism, that of unalloyed bhakti to the Divine Couple and Their associates. In this, he is completely in line with Srila Prabhupada and the entire Bhagavata Parampara. Those who continue to label him and his Godbrothers as mayavada are not only wallowing in ignorance, but committing offensives which are wreaking havoc upon their own devotional creepers. The "origins" issue has never been a focal point for Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Keshava Maharaja, Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja and others. As best I can tell, the GBC began making it an issue back in the early 80's as an integral position within their agenda to discourage Iskcon members from hearing from "outside" Sadhus.

cbrahma · December 17, 2007

I was making a theorectical argument to illustrate that there are unlimited opposites. This conception is different than polar opposites. Whether ideas are partially opposite or polar opposite they can be harmonized by a process that Hegel employed called the "dialectic"which includes thesis, antithesis and sythesis. The harmonizing aspect of the dialectic is very similar to "oneness and difference". Srila Sridhar Maharaj was fond of Hegel's dialectic.

It's more organic than categorical. Dualism captures the abstract categories of thought. There is say impersonalism on the one hand and then personalism on the other. A and NOT A. This works fine if you're making propositional statements using Western Aristotelian logic.

But the inconceivability of the Absolute transcends these categories.

There is no NOT. In Absolute math one minus Absolute is still Absolute.

But set theory speaks to the one-in-difference a lot better. If we recognize that the Absolute is all inclusive and accept that it is personal , then nothing can be subtracted from it. That is, it contains the impersonal truth as well.

Sarva gattah · December 17, 2007

If we recognize that the Absolute is all inclusive and accept that it is personal , then nothing can be subtracted from it. That is, it contains the impersonal truth as well.

The jiva tatastha can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

However, regardless of this fact, the jiva tatastha's full potential expression is perpetually found within the eternal presents of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha express ourslves there in our full potential in Krishna's service eternally.

It is there in Goloka or Vaikuntha, WE ARE who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’, as or ‘our’ endless nitya siddha identity, personality, individuality serving in Krishna's Lila's.

The jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva that is 'eternally established' as their full potential as nitya siddha in a loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka, or a loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in Vaikuntha.

However being tatastha s'akti of the Lord means they have a choice and can also eneter the material creation or mahat-tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary conscious condtion.

The jiva tatastha can therefore use their free will to choose to come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti (being aware of their nitya siddha eternal identity) or of the Maya s'akti (where their temporary nitya baddha dreaming condition is provided bodily vessels that belong to and are part of Maya's -s'akti, the wife of the creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu).

Nitya-siddha’s have different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down.

In fact most jiva tatastha's NEVER allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha, to be covered by the non Krishna conscious 'dream state' or nitya baddha consciousness.

The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however 'imagine', 'think' or 'dream' they, do while most never enter the nitya baddha world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance". Teachings of Lord Caitanya

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

Beggar · December 17, 2007

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva.

First, this I'm assuming by "living entities" you mean "beings". In the writings of Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada he uses the the word living entities to only refer to jivas souls. Next Srimati Radharani is neither a jiva nor Visnu tattva and the gopis are Her expansions:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.209

rādhāra svarūpa — kṛṣṇa-prema-kalpalatā

sakhī-gaṇa haya tāra pallava-puṣpa-pātā

rādhāra svarūpa — the spiritual nature of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī; kṛṣṇa-prema — of love of Kṛṣṇa; kalpa-latā — a creeper; sakhī-gaṇa — the gopīs; haya — are; tāra — of that creeper; pallava — the twigs; puṣpa — flowers; pātā — and leaves.

TRANSLATION

"By nature, Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is just like a creeper of love of Godhead, and the gopīs are the twigs, flowers and leaves of that creeper.

gHari · December 18, 2007

Lecture Jam 3, 1970

We are also as living entity, as good living entity as KRSNa or God. God is also living entity, we are also living entity. Just like father and son. The father is also living entity and the son is also living entity.

Lecture Aug 16, 1968

He has forced me to open my eyes with this torchlight of knowledge which he is bearing. So therefore my spiritual master is my master. He can give me this actual knowledge of my position, my position as an existing entity. And that perfection of understanding my position is understanding KRSNa, or the supremely perfect entity. KRSNa is perfect existence, the perfect being, and as such, His existence is the greatest certainty of all. In one syllogism or one comparison that I can give, I could say that how can a shadow of my hand exist unless my hand exists? The point is how can these individual entities exist except as the shadow of the perfect entity,

Lecture Oct 27, 1972

Therefore JIva GosvAmI, this merging principle, he has explained: just like a green bird enters into a green tree, it, it appears that the bird is no more existing. To the imperfect eyes. But the bird is existing. We cannot see. Both the tree and the bird being green, we see it has merged. Because the spiritual sky and the spiritual living being, a small, it merges it does not merge. It is there. The individuality is there. And because this individuality, fragment of the Supreme Brahman, is eternal, is eternal, sanAtana... It is not that spirit can be cut into pieces. That is not possible. So we are fragmental parts. That means eternally we are so, individual. Nityo nityAnAM cetanaz cetanAnAm (KaTha UpaniSad 2.2.13). We are one of the nityas. There are innumerable nityas and cetanaz, the living entities, part and parcel of the supreme living entity, KRSNa. They're all individual.

SB 8.3.35p

Therefore, from the beginning of creation, the living entities were born of a superior living entity. Ultimately, KRSNa is the supreme living being, the father of all others. AhaM bIja-pradaH pitA: He is the seed-giving father of all living entities.

SB 11.2.37p

Being minute, every living entity is eternally dependent upon the supreme living entity, KRSNa.

SB 11.29.30p

The supreme living entity, KRSNa, eternally manifests Himself as the catur-vyUha, or quadruple plenary expansion.

CC Madhya 20.273p

Life and matter come from the supreme living entity; therefore, being the source of both, that supreme living entity, KRSNa, is described in the VedAnta-sUtra

Lecture Match 29, 1971

The VedAnta says that a living entity, or KRSNa... Any living entity... KRSNa is also the supreme living entity, and we are small living entities.

Lecture June 20, 1976

The living entity is also within the heart and the supreme living entity, KRSNa, is also sitting by him.

Lecture Oct 22, 1972

Because by studying the sample living entity, you can understand the chief living entity. KRSNa is the chief living entity, supreme living entity.

Lecture March 18, 1974

because you are living entity, because you are part and parcel of the supreme living entity, KRSNa.

Lecture Dec 28, 1974

The supreme living entity is KRSNa, and KRSNa says in the Bhagavad-gItA, ahaM bIja-pradaH pitA. He is the origin of living entities. AhaM sarvasya prabhavaH [bg. 10.8]. The supreme living entity is the source of both matter and spirit, not that spirit has come out of matter at a certain condition.

Lecture Feb 24, 1967

Now, we find the supreme living entity is KRSNa, and we, the subordinate living entities.

Lecture Feb 28, 1973

This is the distinction between God and others. He's also living entity, just... KRSNa comes just like ordinary human being, and He works also with us, but that does not mean that KRSNa is like us. No. That is a mistake.

Room Conversation Jan 27, 1975

The supreme living entity is KRSNa. Therefore it is said mayAdhyakSeNa prakRtiH suyate sa-carAcaram [bg. 9.10]. "I am the cause of the material energy working."

Beggar · December 18, 2007

Okay so I stand corrected? So are there only two kinds of "living entities"? What about Srimati Radharani?

Sarva gattah · December 18, 2007

Lecture Jam 3, 1970
We are also as living entity, as good living entity as KRSNa or God. God is also living entity, we are also living entity. Just like father and son. The father is also living entity and the son is also living entity.

Lecture Aug 16, 1968

He has forced me to open my eyes with this torchlight of knowledge which he is bearing. So therefore my spiritual master is my master. He can give me this actual knowledge of my position, my position as an existing entity. And that perfection of understanding my position is understanding KRSNa, or the supremely perfect entity. KRSNa is perfect existence, the perfect being, and as such, His existence is the greatest certainty of all. In one syllogism or one comparison that I can give, I could say that how can a shadow of my hand exist unless my hand exists? The point is how can these individual entities exist except as the shadow of the perfect entity,

Lecture Oct 27, 1972

Therefore JIva GosvAmI, this merging principle, he has explained: just like a green bird enters into a green tree, it, it appears that the bird is no more existing. To the imperfect eyes. But the bird is existing. We cannot see. Both the tree and the bird being green, we see it has merged. Because the spiritual sky and the spiritual living being, a small, it merges it does not merge. It is there. The individuality is there. And because this individuality, fragment of the Supreme Brahman, is eternal, is eternal, sanAtana... It is not that spirit can be cut into pieces. That is not possible. So we are fragmental parts. That means eternally we are so, individual. Nityo nityAnAM cetanaz cetanAnAm (KaTha UpaniSad 2.2.13). We are one of the nityas. There are innumerable nityas and cetanaz, the living entities, part and parcel of the supreme living entity, KRSNa. They're all individual.

SB 8.3.35p

Therefore, from the beginning of creation, the living entities were born of a superior living entity. Ultimately, KRSNa is the supreme living being, the father of all others. AhaM bIja-pradaH pitA: He is the seed-giving father of all living entities.

SB 11.2.37p

Being minute, every living entity is eternally dependent upon the supreme living entity, KRSNa.

SB 11.29.30p

The supreme living entity, KRSNa, eternally manifests Himself as the catur-vyUha, or quadruple plenary expansion.

CC Madhya 20.273p

Life and matter come from the supreme living entity; therefore, being the source of both, that supreme living entity, KRSNa, is described in the VedAnta-sUtra

Lecture Match 29, 1971

The VedAnta says that a living entity, or KRSNa... Any living entity... KRSNa is also the supreme living entity, and we are small living entities.

Lecture June 20, 1976

The living entity is also within the heart and the supreme living entity, KRSNa, is also sitting by him.

Lecture Oct 22, 1972

Because by studying the sample living entity, you can understand the chief living entity. KRSNa is the chief living entity, supreme living entity.

Lecture March 18, 1974

because you are living entity, because you are part and parcel of the supreme living entity, KRSNa.

Lecture Dec 28, 1974

The supreme living entity is KRSNa, and KRSNa says in the Bhagavad-gItA, ahaM bIja-pradaH pitA. He is the origin of living entities. AhaM sarvasya prabhavaH [bg. 10.8]. The supreme living entity is the source of both matter and spirit, not that spirit has come out of matter at a certain condition.

Lecture Feb 24, 1967

Now, we find the supreme living entity is KRSNa, and we, the subordinate living entities.

Lecture Feb 28, 1973

This is the distinction between God and others. He's also living entity, just... KRSNa comes just like ordinary human being, and He works also with us, but that does not mean that KRSNa is like us. No. That is a mistake.

Room Conversation Jan 27, 1975

The supreme living entity is KRSNa. Therefore it is said mayAdhyakSeNa prakRtiH suyate sa-carAcaram [bg. 9.10]. "I am the cause of the material energy working."

Very nice quotes ghari. The following does not contradict any of your quotes from Srila Prabhupada

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.25in; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0.25in; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">The individual living entity can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti, or of the Maya Sakti.

However, regardless of this fact, the living entities full potential expression is perpetually found within the eternal presents of Goloka as their endless body serving Krishna.

We, the living entities, express ourselves there in our full potential in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s service eternally.

It is there in Goloka or Vaikuntha, the individual living entity is who she really is in the perpetual ‘present’, as ‘their’ endless nitya siddha identity, personality, individuality serving in Krishna's Lila's.

The living entity is the marginal potency of the Lord known as the jiva-tattva, that is 'eternally established' in their full potential as nitya siddha in an eternal loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka, or in a perpetual loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in the Vaikunthas.

However, being the individual living entities ,or marginal potencies of the Lord, also means they all have a choice, and can also enter the material creation or mahat-tattva if they choose, as their nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition.

It is there in the material creation, the living entities are covered by the mahat-tattva's material energy however, the living entities are not a product of matter, they only are covered by matter in the form of ethereal and biological bodily containers provided by Maha-Vishnu

The living entities can therefore use their free will to choose and remain under the dominion of the Cit Sakti, as the endless servant of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> they are eternally. Always being aware of their nitya siddha eternal identity.

Or the living entities can come under the influence of the Maya Sakti as their temporary non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious nitya baddha dreaming condition.

The living entity in this nitya-baddha condition can only be covered by Maya's s'akti or material vessels within the mahat-tattva.

All material bodies are provided by the wife of Maha-Vishnu in order for the living entity to seek out their mistaken desires that are part of Maya's s'akti's or her control over the material energy.

No individual living entity can originate from the lifeless mahat-tattva.

The living entities can only visit the material creation and be covered by material bodies, provided and facilitated by Maha-Vishnu.

The living entities eternal nitya-siddha bodily personality has different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down.

In fact most the living entities NEVER allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by the non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious 'dream state' or the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some living entities however, 'imagine', 'think' or 'dream' they, do while most never enter the nitya baddha world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance". Teachings of Lord Caitanya

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

krsna · December 18, 2007

Srila Prabhupada -

"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy"

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

Sarva gattah · December 18, 2007

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by krsna

Srila Prabhupada -

"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy"

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Quote:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 0.25in; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

The individual living entity can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti, or of the Maya Sakti.

However, regardless of this fact, the living entities full potential expression is perpetually found within the eternal presents of Goloka as their endless body serving Krishna.

We, the living entities, express ourselves there in our full potential in <st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place"> they are eternally. Always being aware of their nitya siddha eternal identity.

</font""><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s service eternally. </st1:place></st1:place>