Does Sex Attraction Bring People to Krishna?

[krsna]

Does Sex Attraction Bring People to Krishna?

 

 

<!-- end .post-top --><!-- the main section of the post goes here -->Bir Krishna Goswami

Dear devotees,

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I would like to get some feedback concerning certain methods that I have seen devotees employ in order to attract people to Krishna consciousness. These methods utilize young attractive females.

One example is having devotees publically dance a “rasa-lila” enactment to modern music with a Krishna conscious theme.

Another is having ladies dance in such a way in Harinamas that attention becomes focused on them.

Do we think these ways are effective in spreading Lord Caitanya’s message?

Please give me some feedback.

Your servant, Bir Krishna das Goswami

[Guruvani]

Hmmmm....

Is that any worse than the Bharata-natyam dancing that has been sponsored by many ISKCON temples for many years?

 

Did Srila Prabhupada ever approve of Bharata-natyam dancers in ISKCON temples?

I don't know the answer to that.

 

If devotee women can go out in "karmi clothes" and distribute boobs - I mean books, why can't they dance together in Harinama?

[Beggar]

Sripad B. G. Narasingha Maharaj

Saraswati Prabhupada Parampara II ,

 

...sadharani karon is the process of attending drama performances known as rasa-lilas. Here the anti-party enthusiastically recommends that by watching such lila-dramas one's eternal loving sentiments (bhavas) for Krsna in Madhurya-rasa are aroused. This they say is achieved by identifying one's self with one of the actors and thus experiencing the sentiments being portrayed. Thus they sometimes make a show of shedding tears and manifesting other bodily symptoms of bhava. We point out here the obvious - the sadharani karon process is imitation. One may ask, "What is the harm if neophytes watch rasa-lila dramas?" The answer is that unless one is established in transcendence (nistha, ruci, or asakti) the viewing of rasa-lilas will only arouse one's mundane sentiments of love which are sentiments of prema (divine love) covered by lust. When this happens the whole thing is spoiled and one may loose his highest prospect forever. What to speak of losing our highest prospect - those who are the eternal residents of the Divine World will themselves block our entrance there due to our having committed offenses. When there is imitation, only offenses will be created. Those offenses will be recorded in that circle of the examiners of the upper quarter, and they will give a stamp of disqualification that we are criminal and unfit. This will go against us and hamper our future progress. Our Guru Maharaja Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada once commented to us in Vrndavana about this sadharani karon process wherein he said, "One who has already realized rasa-lila he can go to see such performances - otherwise not." It is also a known fact that such lila-dramas must be performed by pure devotees in order for the actual sentiments (bhavas) to manifest. This point the anti-party also overlooks and eagerly goes to attend the lila-dramas performed by conditioned souls. Thus from start to finish it is a cheating process. A process of self-deception.

[krsna]

 

This point the anti-party also overlooks and eagerly goes to attend the lila-dramas performed by conditioned souls. Thus from start to finish it is a cheating process. A process of self-deception.

[Kulapavana]

I posted this on Dandavats, lets see if they will let it go:

 

Dear Maharaja,

I am not sure that we should equate using stage performances by our young female-bodied devotees with sales techniques employing sexual images. It is probably disrespectful to those devotees and may not be true at all. Who would you have playing the part of gopis in the rasa-dance? 50 year old ladies? Young boys? Old men? That would hardly be appropriate.

Out of many questionable tactics we have employed over the years in the spreading of our movement, this one is probably the least controversial and damaging. If we are showing young, happy devotees doing exciting things for Krsna, how can this be wrong? We want to send a message that nice, "normal" people also join our movement.

And by the way: why should we not call for scrutinizing performances of young boys on stage? After all they are a sexual image for roughly 50% of all people too.

Sometimes the offence is in the eye of the beholder.

Your servant - Kula-pavana dasa

[suchandra]

 

Does Sex Attraction Bring People to Krishna?

 

 

<!-- end .post-top --><!-- the main section of the post goes here -->Bir Krishna Goswami

Dear devotees,

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I would like to get some feedback concerning certain methods that I have seen devotees employ in order to attract people to Krishna consciousness. These methods utilize young attractive females.

One example is having devotees publically dance a “rasa-lila” enactment to modern music with a Krishna conscious theme.

Another is having ladies dance in such a way in Harinamas that attention becomes focused on them.

Do we think these ways are effective in spreading Lord Caitanya’s message?

Please give me some feedback.

Your servant, Bir Krishna das Goswami

Maharaja surely just was asking if the rise in female-initiated advertising psychology can be used in KC. Now it seems he's misunderstood.

[gHari]

We don't even ask this question. Sankirtana is not something we do. Sankirtana is something that is done. The only real answer is surrender. We do not manufacture marketing plans and sales strategies - this is mundane and the results will be mundane.

[Guruvani]

An old devotee friend of mine who is now deceased once told me about a time when he was "blooped" and in a bar having a beer.

He met a woman in the bar and they developed a romantic relationship.

In the course of their relationship he taught her about Krishna conciousness and she eventually got initiated and as far as I know is still a Hare Krishna devotee.

So, anything can happen - anything is possible.

 

I remember one time in Atlanta we were on Harinama and Urukrama prabhu was leading the party downtown through the streets.

As we passed by a bar, he led the Sankirtan party in the bar and we danced around in the bar for probably 5 minutes and everyone in the bar was just tickled and amused.

As we left, a bowery bum on the streets came up and gave us $20 - the only thing he had to his name.

 

He was very impressed.

I am sure he got great benefit from that.

 

So, I don't go for these stereotyped, institutionalized standards and norms.

 

Krishna can take something bad and make something good out of it.

 

If devotee women dancing in circles attracts anyone to Krishna consciousness, then I say all power to it.

 

Not everybody is attracted by dry, boring Swamis setting on the big cushion pontificating in self-righteous arrogance.

 

Any novel way to bring people to Krishna consciousness is fine with me.

 

I heard that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur once said that he would even be willing to serve meat if it would attract prominent leaders of Indian society to come and hear Hari-katha.

[theist]

Yeah well everything has it's limits also. Anybody remember the Children of God from thr late 60's and 70's. They were young mostly ex-hippy newly convert "Jesus Freaks" as they were called. They would go out and sing about the Lord and were very joyous.

 

Eventually though to get more converts they started using the young woman to attract men to their group. It reached the point to were they were actually having sex with them to get new converts.

 

I think it best if we keep faith that the Holy name is all-attractive in itself and if we broadcast suddha-nama that will be most potent.

[Samia]

 

Yeah well everything has it's limits also. Anybody remember the Children of God from thr late 60's and 70's. They were young mostly ex-hippy newly convert "Jesus Freaks" as they were called. They would go out and sing about the Lord and were very joyous.

 

Eventually though to get more converts they started using the young woman to attract men to their group. It reached the point to were they were actually having sex with them to get new converts.

 

I think it best if we keep faith that the Holy name is all-attractive in itself and if we broadcast suddha-nama that will be most potent.

 

Funny you mention this theist I was just reading something about Children of God the other day, about the now leaders son who killed her secretary then himself after growing up in the church with molestation and incest abuse. Their process was called flirty fishing and eventually they progressed to just flat out promises of and actual sex to recruit.

It is a slippery slope to use any form of false enticement and objectifying young girls hardly strikes me a a proper thing to do.

[theist]

 

Funny you mention this theist I was just reading something about Children of God the other day, about the now leaders son who killed her secretary then himself after growing up in the church with molestation and incest abuse. Their process was called flirty fishing and eventually they progressed to just flat out promises of and actual sex to recruit.

It is a slippery slope to use any form of false enticement and objectifying young girls hardly strikes me a a proper thing to do.

 

Samia,

I was doubtful if any would remember them. Are they still around? I liked them when they first started up but their leader went whacky and started refering to the instructions of M. Kaddhafi...yeah that one... the leader of Libya. Downhill from there. Sounds like the downhill slide was even worse than I thought.

[Guruvani]

 

Yeah well everything has it's limits also. Anybody remember the Children of God from thr late 60's and 70's. They were young mostly ex-hippy newly convert "Jesus Freaks" as they were called. They would go out and sing about the Lord and were very joyous.

 

Eventually though to get more converts they started using the young woman to attract men to their group. It reached the point to were they were actually having sex with them to get new converts.

 

I think it best if we keep faith that the Holy name is all-attractive in itself and if we broadcast suddha-nama that will be most potent.

 

Whatever.

Quite frankly I could give a damn about it one way or the other.

It doesn't affect me personally and I don't think it really harms of hinders the Movement of Mahaprabhu.

The topic and the issue is trivial.

I think that Bir Krishna Swami could find something more pressing and important to make an issue out of besides the dancing women.

 

If he thinks that the dancing women are the biggest problem the movement has to fix, then he is sadly mistaken.

 

I think it it ludicrous for him to be making an issue out of it when there are surely important issues facing the movement.

[Inedible]

It is difficult to avoid seeing references to sex when it is being used to sell everything. Using sex to sell renunciation is funny.

[Kulapavana]

 

The topic and the issue is trivial.

I think that Bir Krishna Swami could find something more pressing and important to make an issue out of besides the dancing women.

 

If he thinks that the dancing women are the biggest problem the movement has to fix, then he is sadly mistaken.

 

I think it it ludicrous for him to be making an issue out of it when there are surely important issues facing the movement.

 

I have a feeling that his real criticism is directed towards Indradyumna Maharaja and his festivals. Good looking Russian and Polish devotee girls are an important part of the show but there is nothing unwholesome about that. I am very well acquainted with this program and it would be a terrible shame to see it curtailed by some sour saffron clothed old timers. It is one of a few bright spots in our movement these days.

[skp]

It's interesting to note that BKG Swami posted this query in a Public forum. I wonder was this discussed before within the GBC? Anyways, Prabhupada just wanted to spread Krishna Consciousness all around the world and if the intentions are actually that then it's fine.

 

It seems that there is a very thin line between propogating Krishna Consciousness far and wide and maintaining the requisite standard of purity.

[Inedible]

Could you remind me again what is impure about sex?

[skp]

Illicit sex is impure as mentioned in the Vedic scriptures and confirmed by Srila Prabhupada many times...

[Inedible]

 

Illicit sex is impure as mentioned in the Vedic scriptures and confirmed by Srila Prabhupada many times...

 

And looking at beautiful women is illicit sex?

[theist]

 

It is difficult to avoid seeing references to sex when it is being used to sell everything. Using sex to sell renunciation is funny.

 

Reminds me of a flyer I saw once advertising a gathering for alcoholics that wanted support in quiting. At the bottom of the flyer after describing the event the last line read... "Champagne Will Be Served."

[theist]

 

Could you remind me again what is impure about sex?

 

Impure as in lacking purity. Only something done for the pleasure of the Lord is considered a pure act. It doesn't mean the pleasure experienced in sex is in itself dirty. If one intends to produce and raise Krsna conscious children, which is the highest purpose of sex, then that is pure.

[Kulapavana]

another comment I hope will be posted:

 

Dear Maharaja,

First of all let me say that I think it is very commendable that you openly ask for a feedback in this matter. It requires real courage for a person of authority to ask such questions in public. I wish more ISKCON leaders were inspired by your example.

Over the years I have talked to quite a few of young people who either attended festivals where such performances took place, or who were part of the festival crew, and I have never encountered a single negative comment in that regard. More importantly, people who are openly inimical to our festivals never (to my knowledge) used such performances by our ladies to criticize our movement. Usually they simply say that we use clever cover of Indian art and culture to convey our religious message. I take that as a compliment to the efficacy of our strategy.

[skp]

 

And looking at beautiful women is illicit sex?

 

Just looking at the beautiful woman is surely not illicit sex as you yourself know quite well.. It is the intention behind the looking which tells whether it is illicit or not.

 

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu set a perfect example and said that even looking at a wooden form of a lady can cause agitation...

[indulekhadasi]

 

Hmmmm....

Is that any worse than the Bharata-natyam dancing that has been sponsored by many ISKCON temples for many years?

 

Did Srila Prabhupada ever approve of Bharata-natyam dancers in ISKCON temples?

I don't know the answer to that.

 

I read this from a book called 'Srila Prabhupada is Coming" by Mahamaya dd. She said that bharata natyam dances were being performed while Srila Prabhupada was in their presence (I forgot exactly where this was). Srila Prabhupada didn't object, he didn't say anything. And in London in 1977 I read he saw a bharata natyam dance in the temple and he enjoyed it. So I really don't know if this answers your question, but hopefully we have some idea now.

 

Personally I would prefer that bharatanatyam dancers should be younger than 15, and should be performing something on the pastimes of Krishna. Srila Prabhupada himself said that bharatanatyam was a perfect sign of pure indian culture (I am not saying he allowed it in temples). I don't think kids should be banned from doing bharatanatyam. I have done it many times in the temple but since I am a kid I don't think it is a big offense. Rather I think of it as an offering to Krishna. If any of you can please point out where Prabhupada said that we are not allowed to then I will stop. But so far it seems that Prabhupada didn't mind. Of course I cannot judge-this is my own realization, which could very well be faulty.

 

Thank you. Hare Krishna.

[Inedible]

 

Just looking at the beautiful woman is surely not illicit sex as you yourself know quite well.. It is the intention behind the looking which tells whether it is illicit or not.

 

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu set a perfect example and said that even looking at a wooden form of a lady can cause agitation...

 

Personally I like to be agitated from time to time.

 

There is nothing wrong with enjoying pleasures of the senses. The problem comes from grasping at them and wishing to hold on to them forever. Even sex is not a problem until you make it into something it isn't. Relax. Learn to breathe correctly. It is like with food ... if you are starving, then walking into a bakery will be as indecent as a strip show. Still, we don't blame the chef. If you want to be celibate, you are not supposed to do it by being asexual. That's cheating. The purpose of celibacy is to redirect the energy of your sexuality to the upper chakras. This is much easier to do if you can avoid being tense about sex. Fighting sex is what keeps it locked in its lower chakra form. That's when it starts to get ugly, and that's when even wood statues start to look really hot. It is like being so hungry you are willing to try eating packets of ketchup or mustard. Still, the point I am making is that your relationship with your own sexuality is what determines how you will react to various "temptations" as they present themselves. If you find that your mind turns negative as a result of seeing something or someone, you can blame what you see for how you feel, but you would be better off recognizing that you are the one responsible for how you feel.

[suchandra]

 

Personally I like to be agitated from time to time.

 

 

 

Looks like I get the same wisdom even better from people like below, no need for a spiritual forum.