Is Srila Prabhupada becoming a mytical character

[Yofu]

Are some devotees turning Srila Prabhupada into a mytical character? We now have 3rd and 4th generation devotees talking about Srila Prabhupada in ways that seem to me to be reaching mytical status.

 

Srila Prabhupada the person as experienced by those who met him is being eclipsed by the Prabhupada of faith. The Prabhupada of faith has many versions: The Iskcon GBC version, several Ritvik versions, several GM versions, the sleepervadi version....

[suchandra]

Praghosa dasa: However since Srila Prabhupada's physical departure, the dynamics have changed somewhat. Specifically some of those dynamics are that our present gurus are not on the same level of spiritual purity, strength and realization as Srila Prabhupada. This of course is in no way a slight on our gurus and leaders, rather they are to be commended given that they have stepped up to such a monumental challenge of preserving the parampara. Another changed dynamic is the current age difference between our gurus and their disciples which is generally much less than they were between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

[Kulapavana]

 

Are some devotees turning Srila Prabhupada into a mytical character? We now have 3rd and 4th generation devotees talking about Srila Prabhupada in ways that seem to me to be reaching mytical status.

 

Srila Prabhupada the person as experienced by those who met him is being eclipsed by the Prabhupada of faith. The Prabhupada of faith has many versions: The Iskcon GBC version, several Ritvik versions, several GM versions, the sleepervadi version....

 

The perceptions of someone will always very. Disciples sometimes get carried away when praising their guru, that is understandable. The problem arises when such praises create philosophical deviations.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada is found within his books, letters, morning walk conversations and classes; the only division is in the eyes of the beholder. To me Srila Prabhupada is as he was when I received initiation from him in 1972.

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada is found within his books, letters, morning walk conversations and classes; the only division is in the eyes of the beholder. To me Srila Prabhupada is as he was when I received initiation from him in 1972.

Once in the early 70's I received a letter (a reply) from Srila Prabhupada. When I showed the letter to one of his previous secretaries, Brahmananda, he informed me that since the movement had grown so large that only the letters to senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada and TPs etc. were actually written by him. After reading the letter he told me, "this letter may have been written by his secretary". I then asked Brahmananda if Srila Prabhupada had at least read the letter before signing it. His reply was, "sometimes". He said further, "Sometimes Srila Prabhupada is very busy".

[Beggar]

One time in the spring of 1973 the devotees came back from the morning walk with Srila Prabhuapad and some said that Prabhupada had said some very amazing things that morning and we had to hear the recording. We went over to get the copy from Krsna Kanti Prabhu's office and he informed us that unfortunately the tape recorder malfunctioned and the was therefore no recording of the walk conversation. Another time I actually got to go on a walk and at a certain point a senior man asked a personal question to Srila Prabhupada. Swarupa Damodara Prabhu then shut off the tape recorder. A few minutes later the conversation turned back to philosophy and preaching, about 5 to 10 minutes went by and someone asked Swarupa Damodara whether he had remembered to turn the tape recorder back on. What happened was that an entire segment of Prabhupada's talk was not recorded.

[theist]

Krsna's representative will always remain an enigma to the vast majority, even of his followers. How many sheep really know the stature of the shepard?

 

Some will minimize him concentrating on perceive faults and human like behavior. Others will create a mythological figure out of imagination and misunderstand him in that way. You can praise him and worship him everyday and still not have a clue as to who he is.

 

The point is no one will know the devotee as he is until they develop a similar taste and realization of Krsna consciousness. It is seen that very very few reach this level at anyone time.

 

So to me the analogy of the shepard holds true. The sheep have come to relie on the shepards direction and have some simple trust that he will not mislead them but to understand the inner workings of the shepard's mind is far from them.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Very interesting, indeed!!

 

 

One time in the spring of 1973 the devotees came back from the morning walk with Srila Prabhuapad and some said that Prabhupada had said some very amazing things that morning and we had to hear the recording. We went over to get the copy from Krsna Kanti Prabhu's office and he informed us that unfortunately the tape recorder malfunctioned and the was therefore no recording of the walk conversation. Another time I actually got to go on a walk and at a certain point a senior man asked a personal question to Srila Prabhupada. Swarupa Damodara Prabhu then shut off the tape recorder. A few minutes later the conversation turned back to philosophy and preaching, about 5 to 10 minutes went by and someone asked Swarupa Damodara whether he had remembered to turn the tape recorder back on. What happened was that an entire segment of Prabhupada's talk was not recorded.

[mahak]

Srila Prabhupada told a few of us to meet with him, without recorders.

 

It is interesting that beggar pointed out secretaries answering for prabhupada. I know that prabhupadas mail was tampered with, severely, so much so, that I have rejected the letters altogether because of this fact. Ingoing mail and outgoing response was going on, and postmarks often prove this point. And Prabhupada was never even a part of this equasion.

 

Soi, if we want to truely hear from prabhupada, we read his books. These are his full available teachings, I trust very little otherwise.

[theist]

There is another thread discussioning letters.

[Guruvani]

 

I then asked Brahmananda if Srila Prabhupada had at least read the letter before signing it. His reply was, "sometimes". He said further, "Sometimes Srila Prabhupada is very busy".

This is the kind of thing that has ultimately brought me to the feeling that I was never really a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada never even knew I existed.

 

I have stood right in front of him on a couple of occasions and he wouldn't even look me in the eyes.

Maybe it is because I am a such a demon?

 

Anyway, I was never a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

I was a disciple of the senior devotees who trained me up.

I was a disciple of the GBC and ISKCON.

 

ISKCON and the GBC have since become unacceptable to me and I have since rejected ISKCON because of the GBC and the loss of feeling that I am part of ISKCON or that I belong in ISKCON.

 

At this point I don't consider myself a disciple of anyone really.

I don't deserve to be called a disciple of anyone.

 

I truly do not think that I was ever really a legitmate disciple of Srila Prabhupada and I have come to reject the idea that I can be the disciple of someone who doesn't even know I exist.

 

I don't think that it was too much too ask that the guru spend at least 2 minutes with a devotee who had come to give his life to ISKCON.

Especially, if the opportunity was there and a new disciple had come to give his life to ISKCON, I don't think that refusing to give one minute of the spiritual master's time to a person who had given his life to service of the acharya was really the way to treat people who had joined ISKCON after reading the books.

 

I joined the movement in LA because I thought that Srila Prabhupada stayed their quite a bit and I thought I would get to meet him and actually get some personal contact.

 

Sure, he came to LA when I was there, but he didn't have one minute of his time to give to me but he had time for Stilson Judah and some other people that the GBC gave access to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I am done with it.

I am not the disciple of anyone anymore.

I am not a Hare Krishna devotee either.

I am none of the above.

[Guruvani]

 

I then asked Brahmananda if Srila Prabhupada had at least read the letter before signing it. His reply was, "sometimes". He said further, "Sometimes Srila Prabhupada is very busy".

I am not so sure that Srila Prabhupada was too busy.

I think it could have been some fellows at the top that wanted to keep their special prestige as the inner circle and keep away as many people as they could.

[CCC]

 

This is the kind of thing that has ultimately brought me to the feeling that I was never really a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada never even knew I existed.

 

I have stood right in front of him on a couple of occasions and he wouldn't even look me in the eyes.

Maybe it is because I am a such a demon?

 

Anyway, I was never a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

I was a disciple of the senior devotees who trained me up.

I was a disciple of the GBC and ISKCON.

 

ISKCON and the GBC have since become unacceptable to me and I have since rejected ISKCON because of the GBC and the loss of feeling that I am part of ISKCON or that I belong in ISKCON.

 

At this point I don't consider myself a disciple of anyone really.

I don't deserve to be called a disciple of anyone.

 

I truly do not think that I was ever really a legitmate disciple of Srila Prabhupada and I have come to reject the idea that I can be the disciple of someone who doesn't even know I exist.

 

I don't think that it was too much too ask that the guru spend at least 2 minutes with a devotee who had come to give his life to ISKCON.

Especially, if the opportunity was there and a new disciple had come to give his life to ISKCON, I don't think that refusing to give one minute of the spiritual master's time to a person who had given his life to service of the acharya was really the way to treat people who had joined ISKCON after reading the books.

 

I joined the movement in LA because I thought that Srila Prabhupada stayed their quite a bit and I thought I would get to meet him and actually get some personal contact.

 

Sure, he came to LA when I was there, but he didn't have one minute of his time to give to me but he had time for Stilson Judah and some other people that the GBC gave access to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I am done with it.

I am not the disciple of anyone anymore.

I am not a Hare Krishna devotee either.

I am none of the above.

 

I feel bad reading your post, sorry for your bad experience, maybe such experience broke your heart in the past. Is sad really

[Beggar]

 

This is the kind of thing that has ultimately brought me to the feeling that I was never really a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada never even knew I existed.

 

Generally I was in the same position you were. By mid 1971 when I joined, ISKCON had already transformed into a very different society than '69 and '70. But because I joined in '71, I had friends that were senior but not that senior to me because they had joined a year or two before me. It was by sucking up to these guys that I could maniipulate my way into Prabhupada's room or get on a walk etc. But you had to go for it and even be pushy, otherwise you were left behind. The few times I was with Srila Prabhupada in a small or (very small) group Prabhupada was always either having a management conversation with a GBC, or sannyasi or preaching. So whenever I spoke to him, it was by raising a philosophical question and receiving a general answer. But I must say that just being with him briefly was an amazing experience. For some reason I always remember the sound of his quick gate as he walked and his cane striking the ground. Of course most I the times I heard this sound it was through an electronic recording. I always thought that the reason Srila Prabhupada kept me at a distance was that I was just a disturbance. My reluctance to really develop a service attitude and take on responsibility to push on his movement was just a disturbance in devotional society.

[gHari]

Who is going to believe such a story? With no money in his pockets, and no pockets even, the exalted Prabhupada hops a ride on a steamer and lands in New York. He walks around the Big Apple's parks singing a song like the Pied Piper, and soon the whole western rat race is singing that song.

 

Could such a fairy-tale myth ever be credible?

 

How fortunate we are this wonderful man left his peaceful heaven to cross the universe to save our souls.

 

Amen

[cbrahma]

I saw Prabhupada in Chicago. His shakti was amazing. I am not his formally initiated disciple so I have no reason to mythologize. There is as much downplaying of Prabhupada's position nowadays as there is lengendizing.

I am disgusted by how ISKCON devotees are forever going 'Jaya Prabhupada' and mismanaging the ISKCON that was his legacy. The problem is not the myth-making. The problem is the need to equalize him as an ordinary human being to legitimate the bevy of bogus gurus appointed by the GBC.

I have personally seen a handful of these appointed gurus. I would never surrender to any of them. They are 'celebs'. They bask in institutionally manufactured glamor. They promote their books, they perform like a talent show.

It's really embarassing for somebody who has seen the powerful effects of one pure devotee.

[Vedesu]

 

I have stood right in front of him on a couple of occasions and he wouldn't even look me in the eyes.

Maybe it is because I am a such a demon?

 

I joined the movement in LA because I thought that Srila Prabhupada stayed their quite a bit and I thought I would get to meet him and actually get some personal contact.

 

Sure, he came to LA when I was there, but he didn't have one minute of his time to give to me but he had time for Stilson Judah and some other people that the GBC gave access to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Maybe those couple of times that he didn't look at you, he was looking at someone else whom he felt needed the mercy more at that particular time. Perhaps he sensed that you already had developed some shraddha that others hadn't. Yes, he seemed to give more "personal" time to newcomers and Life Members. You weren't alone in that regard. But his mood at the time was to spread Krsna Consciousness all over the globe and make Hare Krsna a household word. He even wanted to see high court judges wearing tilak. His vision was broad, and that was what was needed at the time. He also gave instructions in his books about the necessity of siksa gurus. Many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples subsequently have received that personal, intimate association which the heart craves via the association with Sadhus such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja, Srila B.P. Puri Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja and others. Guru is one. Srila Prabhupada didn't forget about you.

 

Another point: you must have attended some of his classes being that he visited the Temple you were at. Surely he cast his merciful glance upon you during those classes, even if you were unaware of it. For some strange reason, most likely due to my fledgling faith, the few times I was fortunate enough to attend his classes I would have to stand up in the back of the room in order to stay awake in order to avoid the offense of nodding out while my Guru is speaking. Surely he saw me and took pity upon me.

 

I can only remember 2 times right offhand that I made eye contact with Srila Prabhupada (once while opening the door to his quarters for him, the other while he personally and privately instructed me on chanting the Gayatri Mantra, even mildy chastising me when I messed up the first time.) I even remember feeling quite ashamed when he looked at me, because I knew that he was aware of how deeply fallen I was. So, I don't take it that Srila Prabhupada was ignoring you or being impersonal towards you. That's not his nature. You are obviously a very sincere soul, which means that he did indeed grant you his mercy and is surely aware of all the chanting and service you have performed over the years. And whenever Srila Prabhupada appears to you in a dream, that is most special. Surely you have made eye contact at those times.

 

Your initiation wasn't bhogus. It was real, and you are indeed a sincere and dedicated disciple of your Guru Maharaja.

[Kulapavana]

 

I am done with it.

I am not the disciple of anyone anymore.

I am not a Hare Krishna devotee either.

I am none of the above.

 

This is a pretty deep stuff, Guruvani prabhu, and I feel for you...

 

Sometimes we have to experience a very traumatic catharsis before we can move on with our spiritual progress. I would not have understood the importance of a guru actually guiding you through life if it was not for the fall from grace of my own guru. That was my catharsis.

 

When we realize how much of what we have accepted as "foundational truth" is actually more or less a myth and sheer idealism, we are shaken to the core. Yet, this is just Sri Guru serving us another lesson in His mercy. Fortunate are the ones who absorb this lesson properly and move on to a higher level in their spiritual life.

 

You are a disciple of Prabhupada not because he talked to you, smiled, and acknowledged your discipleship. You are a disciple of Prabhupada because he gave you the basic structure of your spiritual life. And that is far more important than being acknowledged by him as a disciple. Cheer up!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

For once, Prabhu, I will not criticize you for your mood. I share many of your impressions (especially the "talent show" comment).

 

Sincerity is one thing which just cannot be faked.

 

 

I saw Prabhupada in Chicago. His shakti was amazing. I am not his formally initiated disciple so I have no reason to mythologize. There is as much downplaying of Prabhupada's position nowadays as there is lengendizing.

I am disgusted by how ISKCON devotees are forever going 'Jaya Prabhupada' and mismanaging the ISKCON that was his legacy. The problem is not the myth-making. The problem is the need to equalize him as an ordinary human being to legitimate the bevy of bogus gurus appointed by the GBC.

I have personally seen a handful of these appointed gurus. I would never surrender to any of them. They are 'celebs'. They bask in institutionally manufactured glamor. They promote their books, they perform like a talent show.

It's really embarassing for somebody who has seen the powerful effects of one pure devotee.

[Yofu]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Guruvani

I am done with it.

I am not the disciple of anyone anymore.

I am not a Hare Krishna devotee either.

I am none of the above.

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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I'm not a Hare krishna devotee either as for most people a Hare Krishna is a member of Iskcon. Iskcon is not important to me and never will be.

 

I'm done with organisations since they can't give you bhakti.

 

I'm not a disciple of GBC career gurus, or "celeb" gurus. I'm also not a disciple of the Guru followed by some of my fanatical godbrothers and god sisters as their "Guru" is a fantasy superman character.

 

When I hear their childish rants and raves about my guru I wonder if they are really talking about the guru that I'm following.

 

Bhakti is a personal experience and not an organisational experience.

 

I'm a person and will not label myself as anything other than that.

[suchandra]

 

This is the kind of thing that has ultimately brought me to the feeling that I was never really a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada never even knew I existed.

 

I have stood right in front of him on a couple of occasions and he wouldn't even look me in the eyes.

Maybe it is because I am a such a demon?

 

Anyway, I was never a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

I was a disciple of the senior devotees who trained me up.

I was a disciple of the GBC and ISKCON.

 

ISKCON and the GBC have since become unacceptable to me and I have since rejected ISKCON because of the GBC and the loss of feeling that I am part of ISKCON or that I belong in ISKCON.

 

At this point I don't consider myself a disciple of anyone really.

I don't deserve to be called a disciple of anyone.

 

I truly do not think that I was ever really a legitmate disciple of Srila Prabhupada and I have come to reject the idea that I can be the disciple of someone who doesn't even know I exist.

 

I don't think that it was too much too ask that the guru spend at least 2 minutes with a devotee who had come to give his life to ISKCON.

Especially, if the opportunity was there and a new disciple had come to give his life to ISKCON, I don't think that refusing to give one minute of the spiritual master's time to a person who had given his life to service of the acharya was really the way to treat people who had joined ISKCON after reading the books.

 

I joined the movement in LA because I thought that Srila Prabhupada stayed their quite a bit and I thought I would get to meet him and actually get some personal contact.

 

Sure, he came to LA when I was there, but he didn't have one minute of his time to give to me but he had time for Stilson Judah and some other people that the GBC gave access to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I am done with it.

I am not the disciple of anyone anymore.

I am not a Hare Krishna devotee either.

I am none of the above.

 

No one has explained why the disciples of Gaura Govinda Maharaja did not automatically become gurus when he departed? His followers wanted to make 13 of them into ISKCON gurus, but the GBC refused to allow that. The GBC are worried that no one wants to sign up to be an ISKCON guru, never mind that when people try to sign up: they are refused.

 

Meanwhile, the GBC says that when a guru (like GGM) departs, the followers automatically become gurus since this is the system, so why are they not making gurus from the followers of their own gurus?

 

This is more evidence that the GBC guru system is not even recognized as bona fide, by the GBC itself. They say that the followers of their gurus are NOT gurus, and NOT qualified to be gurus, apparently -- only the people voted in as guru are bona fide gurus?

[theist]

 

I am done with it.

I am not the disciple of anyone anymore.

I am not a Hare Krishna devotee either.

I am none of the above.

Sounds like someone has been engaged in some honest and serious introspection. IMO this kind of realization is a prerequiste for becoming a real disciple.

 

The majority are willing to start calling themselves disciples of this person or that after undergoing some formal initiation ceremony. That is not so bad at one level but eventually one has to seriously confront the issue at a deep level within themselves.

 

Maybe it is best (and safest) for most of us to see being a disciple or a real Hare Krsna as a goal and hold that ideal above our heads and out in front of us.

[suchandra]

 

Sounds like someone has been engaged in some honest and serious introspection. IMO this kind of realization is a prerequiste for becoming a real disciple.

 

The majority are willing to start calling themselves disciples of this person or that after undergoing some formal initiation ceremony. That is not so bad at one level but eventually one has to seriously confront the issue at a deep level within themselves.

 

Maybe it is best (and safest) for most of us to see being a disciple or a real Hare Krsna as a goal and hold that ideal above our heads and out in front of us.

Thanks Theist, this is an advanced level how to say it, "a prerequiste for becoming a real disciple". Thought of having to pull Guruvani out of an apparent depression by changing the topic but he anyway didnt buy into it.

 

 

Dear devotees, Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

This letter is to inform ISKCON devotees that Murali Krishna dasa an alleged follower of His Holiness Gaura Govinda Maharaja is not an authorized ISKCON sannyasi. The GBC Sannyasa Ministry takes no responsibilities for his activities.

Yours servant, Prahladananda Swami GBC Minister for Sannyasa Services

 

[sanatan]

Srila Prabhupada is a somewhat of a mythical figure for me simply because I never met or saw him, even though I am old enough to have been an early disciple and had the opportunities wide open to me.

 

Reading Guruvani's post # 11 prompt some reflection. Would I have had the same feelings in his situation?

 

Part of me says yes, since I'm sure I would have idolized SP and earnestly desired some personal contact had I met him, part of me says maybe not since the very minute amount of humility I possess may have kept me in the attitude of "just lucky to be in the same room". Who knows?

 

Anyway, I did have some close association with a great disciple of SP's,

HH Visnujana Maharaja, and I think he passed on something from SP to everyone he met, including me.

 

A this point, mixed regrets:

 

Don't regret not fully joining the movement and getting initiated, by SP or a "successor guru"...good chance I would have blooped early-on or later-on anyway.

 

Don't regret the decision to finish my material education, get married, and have a regular career, in lieu of joining the movement.

 

Do deeply regret not hitting the road with VJ Maharaja, as I had the full opp to, and at least spending a few months with him in his traveling and preaching.

 

58 years old, where to go next? To be continued...sanatan.

[cbrahma]

 

Srila Prabhupada is a somewhat of a mythical figure for me simply because I never met or saw him, even though I am old enough to have been an early disciple and had the opportunities wide open to me.

 

Reading Guruvani's post # 11 prompt some reflection. Would I have had the same feelings in his situation?

 

Part of me says yes, since I'm sure I would have idolized SP and earnestly desired some personal contact had I met him, part of me says maybe not since the very minute amount of humility I possess may have kept me in the attitude of "just lucky to be in the same room". Who knows?

 

Anyway, I did have some close association with a great disciple of SP's,

HH Visnujana Maharaja, and I think he passed on something from SP to everyone he met, including me.

 

A this point, mixed regrets:

 

Don't regret not fully joining the movement and getting initiated, by SP or a "successor guru"...good chance I would have blooped early-on or later-on anyway.

 

Don't regret the decision to finish my material education, get married, and have a regular career, in lieu of joining the movement.

 

Do deeply regret not hitting the road with VJ Maharaja, as I had the full opp to, and at least spending a few months with him in his traveling and preaching.

 

58 years old, where to go next? To be continued...sanatan.

If you knew how many Prabhupada disciples your age, are barely surviving, having been forced out or marginalized, you would realize what a good decision you've made.