Did NASA land men on the Moon?

[Vikram Ramsundar]

Hey Suchandra,

 

I am not and have never been a proponent of GM foods, as to my own untrained eye, the technology is not yet safe enough for its widespread use in an area as sensitive and as critical as nutrition to be sanctioned. Don't mistake me for someone who endorses new inventions just for the sake of them.

 

In similar vein, I am sceptical to accept everything that Al Gore says in An Inconvenient Truth at face value, but that doesn't take away the fact that I am an exceedingly ecologically-minded man. In fact, I am rooting for the day when fossil fuels will be history, I dream of the moment when mankind shall escalate the heights of advancement and spiral up the evolutionary stairway to the stars through utilising renewable sources of energy, with minimal, negligible effect on our natural habitat.

 

Yes, I remain an avowed admirer of modernity, but as is my approach to all facets of life, I temper that positive impression with parameters that have to be respected and conditions which require to be satisfied. This is what I am trying to project on this forum, not playing the Devil's advocate.

 

Hope that this clarifies your misunderstanding.

 

Cheers

[gauragopala dasa]

 

 

 

Europeans thought the world was flat for over 2000 years, then by the late part of the 14th century, a new world was discovered and there were suggestions the world might be round. The Catholic Church condemned such ideas as heresy.

 

During the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages little energy was spent on such speculation, no one was allowed in Europe to think any other way than what the church had taught them however, by the end beginning of the 16th century so many new lands had been discovered with so many different races of people.

 

The church's doctrine of suppression and dictatorial leadership, that had stagnated Europe to the Dark Ages for over a thousand years, were beginning to be challenged in every way. The world was also now proven to be round by the intellectual class in Europe at the time that greatly embarrassed the Catholic Church, but it took over 200 years to convince all the population of Europe that the planet was round.

 

Just like the changes of the world in the 16th century, where Europeans found new lands, from the Americas to South East Asia, meeting so many new races of people, how would the world today in the 21st century handle a something like that happening to our planet?

 

What if one day just like the Native Americans experienced the visiting tall ships of Christopher Columbus in the 1492, we all woke up one morning to find visitors from another planet?

 

Historians have said that the tall ships sitting offshore from where they landed among the Bahamas Islands in 1492, was not at first recognised by the local American Indians, they had seen nothing like it before. At first there brains could not assimilate what was out there, so they ignored it because they could not believe what they were seeing, was it a deception or mirage in the clouds or the waves of the ocean?

 

Only after a few days of this phenomenon the Indians were ignoring, they realized it was not going to go away, so one by one they each began to take more interest of what was out there.

 

One after the other each Indian began to realize these strange objects on the horizon out in the ocean, were real. Only then did they see the tall ships and now believed ‘something’ was out there in the bay that they had never seen before.

 

How would we handle visitors from another earthly world today? We consider ourselves technologically advanced however, to other worldly middle planets; we may be as primitive to them technologically as the American Indians where to Christopher Columbus in 1492? What happened to the American Indians in the 15th century could and probably will happen to our planet sometime over the next thousand years.

 

"Your question about spacemen from other planets; it is stated in the Vedic literature that there are many planets where the inhabitants are more advanced than the inhabitants of this earth planet. So it is not unlikely that such people may have developed space travelling methods. . . . , but this does not mean that such spacemen are necessarily carrying the messages of the Lord”. Srila Prabhupada Los Angeles 14 February 1970

[theist]

 

How would we handle visitors from another earthly world today? We consider ourselves technologically advanced however, to other worldly middle planets; we may be as primitive to them technologically as the American Indians where to Christopher Columbus in 1492? What happened to the American Indians in the 15th century could and probably will happen to our planet sometime over the next thousand years.

"Your question about spacemen from other planets; it is stated in the Vedic literature that there are many planets where the inhabitants are more advanced than the inhabitants of this earth planet. So it is not unlikely that such people may have developed space travelling methods. . . . , but this does not mean that such spacemen are necessarily carrying the messages of the Lord”. Srila Prabhupada <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:city> 14 February 1970

 

Or the next 25.

 

They may be coming to do some "animal experiementations" on us to find the cure for one of their diseases. :eek2:

[suchandra]

 

Hey Suchandra,

 

I am not and have never been a proponent of GM foods, as to my own untrained eye, the technology is not yet safe enough for its widespread use in an area as sensitive and as critical as nutrition to be sanctioned. Don't mistake me for someone who endorses new inventions just for the sake of them.

 

In similar vein, I am sceptical to accept everything that Al Gore says in An Inconvenient Truth at face value, but that doesn't take away the fact that I am an exceedingly ecologically-minded man. In fact, I am rooting for the day when fossil fuels will be history, I dream of the moment when mankind shall escalate the heights of advancement and spiral up the evolutionary stairway to the stars through utilising renewable sources of energy, with minimal, negligible effect on our natural habitat.

 

Yes, I remain an avowed admirer of modernity, but as is my approach to all facets of life, I temper that positive impression with parameters that have to be respected and conditions which require to be satisfied. This is what I am trying to project on this forum, not playing the Devil's advocate.

 

Hope that this clarifies your misunderstanding.

 

Cheers

 

Thanks for clarifying - at least activists like Vandana Shiva (PBS, The Dying Fields) not only explain but actually do something.

 

Wikipedia: Vandana Shiva has fought for changes in the practice and paradigms of agriculture and food. Intellectual property rights, biodiversity, biotechnology, bioethics, genetic engineering are among the fields where Shiva has contributed intellectually and through activist campaigns. She has assisted grassroots organizations of the Green movement in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Ireland, Switzerland and Austria with campaigns against genetic engineering. In 1982, she founded the Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology. Her book, "Staying Alive" helped redefine perceptions of third world women. Shiva has also served as an adviser to governments in India and abroad as well as non governmental organisations, including the International Forum on Globalisation, the Women's Environment & Development Organization and the Third World Network. Vandana Shiva participated in the Stock Exchange of Visions project in 2007.

 

[sevabhakta]

 

 

Thanks for clarifying - at least activists like Vandana Shiva (PBS, The Dying Fields) not only explain but actually do something.

 

Wikipedia: Vandana Shiva has fought for changes in the practice and paradigms of agriculture and food. Intellectual property rights, biodiversity, biotechnology, bioethics, genetic engineering are among the fields where Shiva has contributed intellectually and through activist campaigns. She has assisted grassroots organizations of the Green movement in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Ireland, Switzerland and Austria with campaigns against genetic engineering. In 1982, she founded the Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology. Her book, "Staying Alive" helped redefine perceptions of third world women. Shiva has also served as an adviser to governments in India and abroad as well as non governmental organisations, including the International Forum on Globalisation, the Women's Environment & Development Organization and the Third World Network. Vandana Shiva participated in the Stock Exchange of Visions project in 2007.

 

 

It is actually very nice that people take on such humanitarian missions. They keep the balance more toward the mode of goodness on this planet.

 

Scientific advancement in technology is a part of Varnasrama dharma vedic society. However using junk science or the fruits of real science to cheat and tyrannize others was Hiranyakasipu's game, and if the Bioethicist is not on her game, such demon types will take over for good.

 

Much technology should simply be rejected by anyone trying to live simply and think highly because those levels of tech are a result of ugrakarma.

[Arjuna Haridas]

 

He unearthed a lunar lander, and quickly re-buried it under duress of some general in charge of the operation.

 

To be honest, that's as believable as those Christian miracles I get in the mail every week.

[Guruvani]

 

 

He did a one week job in 73, to bull doze and rearrange dirt in the middle of nowhere. He unearthed a lunar lander, and quickly re-buried it under duress of some general in charge of the operation.

 

 

Maybe it was just an old VW and your friend is confused.

Mahak has become the man of conspiracy theories lately.

 

I thought Mahak dealt with reality, not hair-brained conspiracy theories?

 

Why do you waste your thinking faculties on such speculation and paranoid theories?

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

 

Thanks for clarifying - at least activists like Vandana Shiva (PBS, The Dying Fields) not only explain but actually do something.

 

Wikipedia: Vandana Shiva has fought for changes in the practice and paradigms of agriculture and food. Intellectual property rights, biodiversity, biotechnology, bioethics, genetic engineering are among the fields where Shiva has contributed intellectually and through activist campaigns. She has assisted grassroots organizations of the Green movement in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Ireland, Switzerland and Austria with campaigns against genetic engineering. In 1982, she founded the Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology. Her book, "Staying Alive" helped redefine perceptions of third world women. Shiva has also served as an adviser to governments in India and abroad as well as non governmental organisations, including the International Forum on Globalisation, the Women's Environment & Development Organization and the Third World Network. Vandana Shiva participated in the Stock Exchange of Visions project in 2007.

 

 

And what exactly are you doing, other than looking for bland links on the web 24 hours a day?

[suchandra]

 

And what exactly are you doing, other than looking for bland links on the web 24 hours a day?

For me India is the land of religion and enlightenment and not the land of despaired, frustrated and suicidal agnostics. Since you seem to have a little interest in audarya fellowship why don't you educate yourself and help those poor and mislead people (see below) to find some meaning of life?

 

Hopefully not a "bland link" for you:

 

Dramatic increase

Online edition of India's National Newspaper

 

The number of Indians committing suicide each year rose from around 96,000 in 1997 to roughly 1.14 lakh in 2005. In the same period, the number of farmers taking their own lives each year shot up dramatically. From under 14,000 in 1997 to over 17,000 in 2005. While the rise in farm suicides has been on for over a decade, there have been sharp spurts in some years. For instance, 2004 saw well over 18,200 farm suicides across India. Almost two-thirds of these were in the Big Four or ‘Suicide SEZ’ States.

 

 

The year 1998, too, saw a huge increase over the previous year. Farm suicides crossed the 16,000 mark, beating the preceding year by nearly 2,400 such deaths. Farm suicides as a proportion of total suicides rose from 14.2 in 1997 to 15.0 in 2005.

Professor Nagaraj also points to the Annual Compound Growth Rate (ACGR) “for suicides nationally, for suicides amongst farmers, and those committed using pesticides.”

The ACGR for all suicides in India over a nine-year period is 2.18 per cent. This is not very much higher than the population growth rate. But for farm suicides it is much higher, at nearly 3 (or 2.91) per cent. Powerfully, the ACGR for suicides committed by consuming pesticide was 2.5 per cent. Close to the figure for farmers.

Such suicides are often linked to the farm crisis, with pesticide being the handiest tool available to the farmer. “There are clear, disturbing patterns and trends in both farmers’ suicides and pesticide suicides,” says Professor Nagaraj.

 

 

Not the full picture

Alarming though that is, it still does not capture the full picture. The data on suicides are complex, and sometimes misleading. And not just because of the flawed manner in which they are put together, or because of who puts them together. There are other problems, too. Farmers’ suicides as a percentage of total farmers is hard to calculate on a yearly basis. A clear national ‘farm suicide rate’ can be derived only for 2001. That is because we have the Census to tell us how many farmers there were in the country that year. For other years, that figure would be a conjecture, however plausible.

But even in 2001, when the farm suicides were not yet at their worst, the farm suicide rate (FSR) at 12.9 was much higher than the general suicide rate (GSR) at 10.6 for that year. But the GSR slowed down after that to 10.3 by 2005 even as the total number of suicides went up. It means that the increase in the number of general suicides did not keep pace with the growth in general population. But the FSR seems to have risen more steeply after 2001. By all accounts, while the number of farm suicides kept increasing, the number of farmers has fallen since 2001, with countless thousands abandoning agriculture.

In 2005, the Big Four or ‘Suicide SEZ’ States accounted for 43.9 per cent of all suicides and 64.0 per cent of all farm suicides in the country. By contrast, a group of States with the highest general suicide rates — including Tamil Nadu, Kerala, West Bengal, Tripura, and Puducherry — accounted for 20.5 per cent of farm suicides in India. “Their share of both total suicides and of farmers’ suicides declined between 1997 and 2005 even as that of the Big Four steadily rose,” points out Professor Nagaraj.

To the extent the media have covered the farm crisis, their focus has been on farm suicides in four States — Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala. Very broadly speaking, that appears to have been right. All have very high rates of farmers’ suicides. Madhya Pradesh though, is a major State showing such trends which has received scant attention. (Among smaller regions and States, Goa, and Puducherry show extremely high farm suicide rates but on tiny absolute numbers.)

It is important that the figure of 1.5 lakh farm suicides is a bottom line estimate. It is by no means accurate or exhaustive. There are inherent and serious inaccuracies in the NCRB data as they are based on ground data that exclude large groups of people. As Professor Nagaraj puts it: “There is likely to be a serious underestimation of suicides, particularly of farmers’ suicides, in these reports. The most important problem is the way a farmer is defined at the ground level: as someone who has a title to land. This is likely, for instance, to leave out tenant farmers and, particularly, women farmers.”

The quality of reporting also varies from State to State. For instance, Haryana shows a very low ratio of farm suicides to general suicides. This conflicts with other assessments of the problem in that State. Data from Punjab have also been highly contested by groups monitoring the farm crisis there.

However, even in this flawed data, the trends are clear and alarming. But what has driven the huge increase in farm suicides, particularly in the Big Four or ‘Suicide SEZ’ States? “Overall,” says Professor Nagaraj, “there exists since the mid-90s, an acute agrarian crisis. That’s across the country. In the Big Four and some other States, specific factors compound the problem. These are zones of highly diversified, commercialised agriculture. Cash crops dominate. (And to a lesser extent, coarse cereals.) Water stress has been a common feature — and problems with land and water have worsened as state investment in agriculture disappears. Cultivation costs have shot up in these high input zones, with some inputs seeing cost hikes of several hundred per cent. The lack of regulation of these and other aspects of agriculture have sharpened those problems. Meanwhile, prices have crashed, as in the case of cotton, due to massive U.S.-EU subsidies to their growers. Or due to price rigging with the tightening grip of large corporations over the trade in agricultural commodities.”

 

 

Debt trap

“From the mid-‘90s onwards,” points out Professor Nagaraj, “prices and farm incomes crashed. As costs rose — even as bank credit dried up — so did indebtedness. Even as subsidies for corporate farmers in the West rose, we cut our few, very minimal life supports and subsidies to our own farmers. The collapse of investment in agriculture also meant it was and is most difficult to get out of this trap.”

 

 

15,725 : West Bengal tops suicide list in India

December 09, 2007 15:38 IST

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/09suicide.htm

 

<!-- wml_version_starts --> West Bengal and Maharashtra have retained the dubious distinction of having the highest number of suicides in the country, according to statistics available with National Crime Records Bureau.

The provisional data for the year 2006 revealed that the total number of suicides in the country has increased by 4,198 to touch 1,18,112 last year, but there was a decline in the cases of farmers taking their lives last year.

The statistics revealed that the number of suicides by farmers were 17,060 last year as against 17,131 in 2005.

West Bengal topped the list of suicides with 15,725 suicides, including 6,605 women, compared to 15,015 in 2005 and 13,424 the previous year.

Maharashtra, which topped the list of farmers' suicide with 4,453 compared to 3,926 in 2005, recorded 15,494 suicides as against 14,426 in 2005. These two states were followed by Andhra Pradesh (13,276) which registered a decline of 166 in the suicides, Tamil Nadu (12,381), Karnataka (12,212).

The national capital registered 1,492 suicide cases last year, which is an increase of 247 from 2005 figures. There were three cases of farmers committing suicide in the capital, down from seven in 2005.

The main reasons for people taking the extreme step were family problems, failure in love affairs, illness, examination blues and dowry harassment, an official said, adding majority of them took to consuming poison or hanging.

It was in Bengal where a maximum number of 6,605 women committed suicide last year followed by Maharashtra (4,984) and Tamil Nadu (4,872). The total number of women who committed suicide was 42,410.

Out of the 75,702 men committed suicide last year, the maximum was recorded from Maharashtra (10,510) followed by Bengal (9,120) and Andhra Pradesh (8,863). Uttar Pradesh, the biggest state of the country, recorded a decline in the number of suicides, recording 3,099 such incidents during last year. It included 1,761 men and 1,338 women.

In 2005, Uttar Pradesh witnessed 3,449 suicides. There was a substantial decline in the number of farmers' suicide in the state. Last year, 411 such cases were reported in Uttar Pradesh compared to 522 in 2005 while the

figures for 2004 were 496.

While Maharashtra topped the list of farmers' suicide with 4,453, Andhra Pradesh came second with 2,607, followed by Karnataka (1,720), Chattisgarh (1,483) and Madhya Pradesh (1,375). West Bengal (1,189) and Kerala [Images] (1,124) were on the sixth and seventh position.

Out of the 17,060 farmers' suicide, a whopping 14,664 were men while 2,396 were women. The corresponding figures for 2005 are 14,973 (men) and 2,158 (women).

The suicide figures for 2001 was 1,10,850 while it was 1,10,417 for the next year, followed by 1,10,851 in 2003 and 1,13,697 in 2004.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

For me India is the land of religion and enlightenment and not the land of despaired, frustrated and suicidal agnostics. Since you seem to have a little interest in audarya fellowship why don't you educate yourself and help those poor and mislead people (see below) to find some meaning of life?

 

I educate myself in subjects that I consider to be useful for me and beneficial to my perceived interests. I am no good samaritan out to improve the lot of the world. I have no proclivity to aid those farmers or anyone else in their category.

 

India the land of religion, eh? What a joke? You sure have a good sense of humour, Suchandra. How many times have you set foot in that country? I happen to be of pure subcontinental extraction and go there nearly every year. To me, India is a large, interesting place with a booming economy and thriving parliamentary democracy. At the same time, 300 million of its population live on less than a dollar a day, and ONLY further, sustained development and free trade will someday enable these indigent people to lift themselves out of abject poverty and lead a better life. For now, though, I can only empathise with their lot. I have way too much to do accreting my own wealth, and I present no apologies for that.

[suchandra]

 

I educate myself in subjects that I consider to be useful for me and beneficial to my perceived interests. I am no good samaritan out to improve the lot of the world. I have no proclivity to aid those farmers or anyone else in their category.

 

India the land of religion, eh? What a joke? You sure have a good sense of humour, Suchandra. How many times have you set foot in that country? I happen to be of pure subcontinental extraction and go there nearly every year. To me, India is a large, interesting place with a booming economy and thriving parliamentary democracy. At the same time, 300 million of its population live on less than a dollar a day, and ONLY further, sustained development and free trade will someday enable these indigent people to lift themselves out of abject poverty and lead a better life. For now, though, I can only empathise with their lot. I have way too much to do accreting my own wealth, and I present no apologies for that.

As self-confessed agnostic your education in so called useful and perceived interests is hardly something more than illusions that end below a gravestone.

 

This is what Krishna says to folks like you, BG 16.16: "Thus perplexed by various anxieties and bound by a network of illusions, they become too strongly attached to sense enjoyment and fall down into hell."

 

It's sad but true, people like you no one can help, the only truth you seem to grasp, that you have to die. There is a sanskrit verse: yasyatma buddhih kunape tridhatuke/svadhih kalatradesu bhauma ijya dhir/ya titha buddhih salile na karhichit/janesu abhijnesu sa eva gokara. (SB 10.84.13)

 

Anyone who thinks the body, made of mucus, bile and air to be the self, and who thinks that the extensions of one's body, such as wife or country of birth, to be worshipable, and who goes on pilgrimage to India nearly every year but fails to achieve any enlightenment, then that person is no more intelligent than an ass or a cow.

 

You wanna remain an ass, Vikram? Please reconsider!

 

Prabhupāda: Because there is great propaganda to curb down by your leaders. They are naturally inclined. Anyone who takes birth in India, it is to be supposed that in this past life, he was spiritual. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41] There is great opportunity for persons who are born in India for spiritual advancement. Unfortunately by force, by propaganda, we are suppressing them. That is the cause. We are suppressing them. Otherwise still we get experience. We hold these Hare Krishna Festival in Calcutta, Bombay, and other places. Here also. Many thousands of people are coming. Because at heart there is Krishna consciousness, but, by external forces, they are being suppressed. That is going on. It is not natural. It is unnatural. Natural is every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is natural. By artificial means they are being suppressed. This is the misfortune of the present day of India. [break] …can be done? In the educational system no Bhagavad-gītā. Just see. How much unfortunate… One Indian girl in Berkeley University, she asked me, “Swamiji, what is God?” Just see. She’s Indian, where God takes birth, Rāmacandra, Krishna, and she is now materially advanced. Now she is asking what is God. This is our position. The land where God come, from that land a advanced student is asking: “What is God?” This is our advancement. Hare Krishna.

 

Bhagavad-gītā 6.47

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Ahmedabad, December 12, 1972

[mahak]

I cannot defend my perspective against those who have bought relative propaganda over absolute truth. Simply by chanting "conspiracy theory", one ends all thought on the subject matter, refuses intelligent analysis, and buys into the whole modernistic humanism.

 

Chant the glories of NASA, but where is their success? None. If they went to the moon, why stop. Are we to believe they went thirty years ago, but soon will be prevented to even go to the space station 200 miles away, because their vehicle cannot make the trip. Go ahead, believe. This is your prerogative, and I do not fight you for your beliefs.

 

However, my spiritual master would be branded "conspiracy theorist" accross the board. He knew secret agencies were manipulationg all the controversial groups in the sixties from the Malcolm X fiasco thru panthers and SDS, and including hare krsnas. He knew the modern science is fraudulent. He told of the science of nescience, based on lies and relative propaganda, including the bogus space program and the utter futility of such means of travel.

 

No, he doesnt buy into material science, the lies of relative propaganda and disproved method of science. He is about absolute truth, that there is no political solution, that the altruists and do-gooders make more trouble than solution.

 

"I wanna go home. Take off this uniform and leave the show. But Im sitting in the cell, and I have to know. Have I been guilty all this time? Time? Time?" (From the wall)

 

Or all you have to do is "follow the worms." Me?

 

 

PS. I saw that show two nights in a row at LA Sports Arena, ca 1980. very heavy.

mahaksadasa

[mahak]

 

I knew it. We are living on the moon! I knew it all along. We went to the moon and stayed - we were all transported in our sleep. The earth was destroyed by the Russia/America nuclear war. That barren ball in the sky is actually all that's left of the earth. It's all a hoax. The machines have taken over. At the end of my self-realization meditations it was revealed: the truth - I have become .................

 

 

Free your mind. Unplug from the matrix of the gunas. The truth shall set you free.

 

Are you the one? Seeing thru the rhetoric is so out there, bro. Could imagine the response if I were to say the reason the demigods, in ages past, came to the earth so often and how they did it. It is because they walked, because Indraloka was perched atop Mt. Meru. Now there is a conspiracy for you.

 

If we asked if Hanuman went to the moon, Id say yes, because he could do these things. But NASA? $700 dollar US toilet seat cover NASA? Sorry, thats like saying thet the Trident Submarine Program is functional and really works. Too much belief involved. I want real science, I want the Puskara vehicle, not some bogus lunar lander. Puskara Space vehicle has a forest aboard with fruit trees, not tanng mixed with your co-pilots urine sample.

 

You di one, me too. Sorry, everready. mahak, the bleedin heart

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

You wanna remain an ass, Vikram? Please reconsider!

 

I guess that you know what I make of your interpretation of the Hindu books. Enough said!

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

I cannot defend my perspective against those who have bought relative propaganda over absolute truth. Simply by chanting "conspiracy theory", one ends all thought on the subject matter, refuses intelligent analysis, and buys into the whole modernistic humanism.

 

Chant the glories of NASA, but where is their success? None. If they went to the moon, why stop. Are we to believe they went thirty years ago, but soon will be prevented to even go to the space station 200 miles away, because their vehicle cannot make the trip. Go ahead, believe. This is your prerogative, and I do not fight you for your beliefs.

 

However, my spiritual master would be branded "conspiracy theorist" accross the board. He knew secret agencies were manipulationg all the controversial groups in the sixties from the Malcolm X fiasco thru panthers and SDS, and including hare krsnas. He knew the modern science is fraudulent. He told of the science of nescience, based on lies and relative propaganda, including the bogus space program and the utter futility of such means of travel.

 

No, he doesnt buy into material science, the lies of relative propaganda and disproved method of science. He is about absolute truth, that there is no political solution, that the altruists and do-gooders make more trouble than solution.

 

"I wanna go home. Take off this uniform and leave the show. But Im sitting in the cell, and I have to know. Have I been guilty all this time? Time? Time?" (From the wall)

 

Or all you have to do is "follow the worms." Me?

 

 

PS. I saw that show two nights in a row at LA Sports Arena, ca 1980. very heavy.

mahaksadasa

 

How about this as THE biggest conspiracy - the Bhagavatam was not written by Vyasa 5,000 years ago, but rather was inspired by the medieval Alvar tradition of South India, and dates back to around the year 800 CE. And that is what scholars who make a living out of critically analysing texts think. Where does this leave your arguments, Mahakji?

[theist]

 

How about this as THE biggest conspiracy - the Bhagavatam was not written by Vyasa 5,000 years ago, but rather was inspired by the medieval Alvar tradition of South India, and dates back to around the year 800 CE. And that is what scholars who make a living out of critically analysing texts think. Where does this leave your arguments, Mahakji?

Maybe so. Vyasadeva maybe is a general name for a collection of different authors. Personally these things don't matter to me in the slightest. What matters is the truth contained therein and I have yet to see another work that is even slightly comparable to the Srimad Bhagavatam. Not even close.

 

The eternal truth that is contained within the Srimad Bhagavatam is immune to all such controversies.

 

I have often said I accept those truths as they are and don't care if the Bhagavatam fell from the sky yesterday.

 

It should be said that I don't accept all the stories in the Bhagavatam as literal as most here do. Or the Mahabharata either. I don't believe in a literal battle of Kuruksetra for example which leaves me outside the fold and awkwardly in a position opposite the Gaudiya Acaryas.

 

Nevertheless the fact that we are spiritsoul and not this physical body remains. That God must be the Supreme Person and not just an impersonal energy field called Brahman. I also accept that the spiritual world is variegated and the jivas are meant for an eternal rasa of love exchanges with the Supreme Lord. I accept those relations as described in Krsna lila to be of the most intimate nature and in fact I accept Krsna lila as a literary incarnation of the Supreme Lord in His most attract form as Sri Krsna.

So I am a bit orthodox and a heretic at the same time.

 

I am hoping that you can reconcile your doubts with the essence found in the SB. Keep your doubts even. But please investigate the theistic side of vedic wisdom as inunciated in the SB.

 

That is my only request.

 

Hare Krsna

[mahak]

DANCE IN TRANCE

-c-1993-mahaksadasa One day, I heard the singing

It was to chant, dance in trance, the bell was ringing

There was pounding of many drums

Like the thunder from the clouds

Voices praising the Lord with song

A complete symphony never ruined with scales

Carried from most High, written in the soul

From overture to grand finale

Pipers, shenais, and didjari doos

Timbales, tympani, tablas

Bellows, strings and rhythms

 

 

Chant, dance in trance, it's what He is pleading

It's needed in the towns and cities bleeding

It's the focal point of life, but are we heeding?

Can we change the way we think of the lives we are leading?

 

 

Jeweled turbans and solid golden crowns

Are just heavy burdens if heads never touch the ground

Voices sound just like frogs when not singing of His Fame

Sing praises to the Lion, glorify His Holy Name

 

 

Hear the songs of the mother to the child in her womb

Hear the drones of the pipers and mourners at the tomb

Hear the sound of the teacher's lesson to his ward

Hear the chanting of the minister's praise to Sweet Lord

 

 

The Christ and Mohammed sing the same song

At the bay of Bengal, lepers, too, sing along

Ice-fishers living on top of the world

Sing praises to the Master with their bodies unfurled

Strings, Drums, and cymbals, voices all chime

This sweetest of messages carried through time

Carry through history His Glory and His Fame

The Waves of the Sound of His Holy Names

 

 

Harinama, Harinama, Harinama ewa kevalam

Kalau nasteva, nasteva, nasteva, gatih anyatha

Haribol, folks. Well, we have another timeline proposal, another beginningless beginning. What do I think if I knew the Bhagavatam was written 800 CE? Here is my answer, please listen carefully. It is not unlike my reaction when a faultfinding godbrother told me about my siksa gurus forsaking his sanyassi vow to take a wife. I said, "Who's the lucky gal?"

 

It is of no consequence when Bhagavatam was written. The key understanding is when it was spoken, from Lord Brahma to his disciple, Srila Narada Muni. Four verses. Read it, you will find them. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has taught us everything there is to know in his elaborate purports to these four verses. We take it from there.

 

Since Bhagavatam was uttered, humanity has come and gone perhaps thousands upon thousands of times, the planet is covered with layer upon layer of lost civilizations. It is Martyaloka we are speaking of, the planet where all who reside here die very quickly, never knowing what has been or what will be.

 

So bhagavatam touches a few of us. This touchstone has effect, especially when it is personally delivered by Srimad Bhagavatam, the Vaisnava Acarya representative of the author of the literary Bhagavatam. One who knows bhagavatam, the Vaisnava, has clearing vision of reality. (S)he is not fooled by the arrangements of these oh-so-short lived cultures. There is no confusion on the aryan issue, because sumerians and druids and lakota all spring from Srimad Bhagavatam, Lord Brahma, our originator spiritual master. Lord Nitya has eternally taken residence in the hearts of akkadians, atlanteans, Panasians, the residents of the real one world regieme when only one continent floated upon the ocean of milk, Venus resting on the cradle of Himalaya while King Prthu performed his rasa.

 

800 CE? So whats your point?

 

mahaksadasa

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

the residents of the real one world regieme when only one continent floated upon the ocean of milk, Venus resting on the cradle of Himalaya while King Prthu performed his rasa.

 

 

When exactly was that? During the pre-Cambrian, Tertiary or some other period of geological history?

[mahak]

pre cambrian, pre akkadian, you know, back when india and sri lanka were part of mother afrika, before Prthu slammed india into himalaya and lanka surfed the wake. Madagaskar stayed behind, though, marcus garvey freak. Mauritius wanted to go, too, but was too little, and needed to stay to spiritually guide mother afrioca.

 

Seriously, though, I always recommend to the progressive scientist types to consider the works of velikovsky without placing credence in the debunkers who have since been discredited themselves. This is science. First, theory, then practical application to see if theory holds up.

 

Not just believing the latest scientific journals owned by murdock or other conglomerates.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Mauritius wanted to go, too, but was too little, and needed to stay to spiritually guide mother afrioca.

 

Mauritius is estimated to be less than a million years old, and was formed by a massive volcanic eruption in the Indian Ocean, so it doesn't quite come into the equation. The Himalayas are approximately 20 million years of age, and are considered quite recent, from a geological standpoint that is. Be serious, Mahakji, stop talking mythologically and learn to look at the world in light of a rational, intellectually reputable method.

[Vedesu]

 

Mauritius is estimated to be less than a million years old, and was formed by a massive volcanic eruption in the Indian Ocean, so it doesn't quite come into the equation.

 

I'm not so sure about that. According to one source, about 75 million years ago there was this alien named Xenu who ruled our part of the galaxy. Back then Earth was called Teegeeack. At some point Xenu had a massive problem with the consideration that 76 of the planets he controlled had a population problem of about 178 billion people per planet on average. Now, with such a large amount of people clogging these planets up, Xenu was faced with having to solve the population problem, and soon. So Xenu gathered all of the billions and billions of people up by using psychiatrists to collect people for their income tax inspections. All of these people were travelled by space craft from all the 76 planets to Earth where they were stacked into the bases of twelve volcanoes on Earth. At some point, the souls of the aliens, or also known as thetans, were blown around in the atmosphere in nuclear winds. Xenu had electronic thetan traps then in the atmosphere where all the thetans would get stuck and then gathered into large boxes. Here's a photo of one of those volcanoes. Not sure if it's the one in the Indian Ocean or not:

 

[Arjuna Haridas]

 

How about this as THE biggest conspiracy - the Bhagavatam was not written by Vyasa 5,000 years ago, but rather was inspired by the medieval Alvar tradition of South India, and dates back to around the year 800 CE. And that is what scholars who make a living out of critically analysing texts think. Where does this leave your arguments, Mahakji?

You're kinda off. It was finished a little after the death of Muhammad (in the 600s CE). It's obvious that it wasn't written thousands of years ago, and it's also obvious that the author of the Bhagavata Purana isn't the same author as the Mahabharata.

[mahak]

Haribol, Vikram, I am being very serious here. You insist that my views must comply with the latest scientific journals, but this is what I contend as not science, but rather bling belief in convention.

 

If science is not cutting edge, then it is academics. Academics is just a temporary fact, to be disproved by real science at a later date. Piltdown Man is a prime example, but there are millions of others.

 

Modern scientists refuse to say, "It is beyond me." Therefore, they are inelligible to participate in any scientific debate, because they place too much value on their faulty ionterpretations. I recommended Velikovsky, but you pooh pooh without comment, probably because of the widely published countra proposals of the 50s. Yet, by the 60s, these ideas have been actually the basis for progressive theoretical scientific processes that have given rise to that which may be convention in another fifty years. I mean really, Dick Tracy's watch is so passe, yet was such novelty. Star Trek Enterprise was on the megabite level compared to the gigabyte generation that is also soon to be obsolete.

 

Velikovsky actually used his scientific observations of the solar system structure to surmise cataclysm which todays scientists still have no real grasp on. Velikovsky actually proved that what you may refer to as myth as actual witnessed scientific observations by predecessor humanity that is perhaps much more advanced that todays pygmy world. (BTW, did I not say that Mauritius was too young to make the trip north?) He actually came to see the puranic histories as not only possible from a scientific analysis, but probable as well. Maybe one cannot perceive of the personal activities of King Prthu, but the result is there for all to witness. A theist/scientist understands that energy cannot stand alone, that energy is manipulated by the Energetic Being. Even modern science journals have authenticated the science of plate techtonics, effects of cosmic rays, planets in chaos, wobbling, flipping over, spinning backwardss, travelling in orbits aloof from the plate of the solar system. The only thing what you call mythology adds is the personal touch. And if one is a true scientist, they will give credit to the energetic, not come up with hair-brained schemes that have never undergone true scientific testins and positive result. The "energy only" theorists cannot make a grain of rice, cannot fabricate any new material from nothing. There are no creators among the scientists, only technicians that move about stuff already created by another.

 

Just because someone has branded the histories written on the walls of holocaust survival caves as mythology, there is no scientific evidence available to disprove any of it as fact. Giants and centaurs and leprichans and druids moving huge stones with their mental mantras have never bveen disproven, but evidences of their actual existance abounds, sure as the visible bridge tro Lanka of the Waves.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

You're kinda off. It was finished a little after the death of Muhammad (in the 600s CE). It's obvious that it wasn't written thousands of years ago, and it's also obvious that the author of the Bhagavata Purana isn't the same author as the Mahabharata.

 

700 CE, 800 CE, it's all in the same ballpark. This is a median estimate of the dates attributed to the Bhagavata by Indologists and Sanskritists. I'm certain that you get my drift. In the same vein, there are scholars who date the BhP to significantly earlier times than the time of the prophet of Islam, whilst others conjecture that some portions of it are post-1000 CE.

 

Even more, SOME parts of the text of the Bhagavatam are of an incontrovertible pre-Christian era timeline, due to genuine archaisms in the Sanskrit, as has been superbly demonstrated by the German-based academician Ludo Rocher, arguably the world's foremost expert on the Puranas. To my knowledge, this opinion of Rocher's hasn't yet been rebutted by anyone, mainly because the veritably ancient Sanskrit one occasionally stumbles across in this specific Puranic work CANNOT be traced to any extant form of the language that survives in the remnant classical literatures of the subcontinent.

[sevabhakta]

Hare Krsna