Not vegans, cow protectors.

[theist]

By HH [1] www.sivaramaswami.com)

Question: Vegans claim that we are contributing to factory farming and calves being deprived of their mothers’ milk. How do we address this argument?

Answer: There are two points here, first that a cow gives more milk than a calf can drink, so it’s not necessarily that they’re being deprived. However a calf should be able to drink its mothers milk, and that happens when they’re being taken care of in a natural way in a gosala. The calves drink their mothers’ milk and the cow gives more milk. Also, if you just let a calf drink as much as they wanted, they’d get sick.

However, the modern system of simply farming cows, inseminating them so they’re constantly milking rather than allowing it to take place in a scheduled way — which is good for the overall health of the cow, so it’s not always giving milk, and it’s not always inseminated — that is certainly violent, and the answer to that is not to become a vegan, or to stop drinking milk. The answer is to drink milk procured only by the proper means. Reason being is Krishna drinks milk, it is part of our diet, and go brahmanya hitaya ca — a whole culture is based on drinking milk. It’s not something we are willing to sacrifice. Therefore, we need to have farming communities as Srila Prabhupada established, where cow protection is a priority. For this reason Srila Prabhupada said to keep as many cows as possible, which is a tall order.

But if we do keep as many cows as possible, and if we have cow protection, and if devotees and congregation members are actually protecting those cows and maintaining them, then we can have enough milk to provide temples and congregation members and everyone with milk.

Then you’re above this kind of criticism. You don’t need to say, “Oh welll, I’m a Hare Krishna, I’ve offered it to Krishna, and therefore I’m free from the reaction.” It is questionable if you’re free from the reaction. Why? Srila Prabhupada has made it clear that our duty is cow protection. Krishna set the personal example of cow protection. Therefore, just because we are devotees, just because we offered some milk then we think we’re free from the reaction for the violence that’s involved in procuring that milk–and remember that the cow, the bull, and the calf are later all slaughtered, and that’s something you’re also involved in when you’re drinking milk–then you have a very hard argument to try to defeat. In fact, it’s not an argument you can defeat.

Therefore Srila Prabhupada gave us a very simple formula to defeat that argument, so that we don’t have to fall back on strawman tactics and arguments: he gave us cow protection, which is a completely friendly, non-violent, and inoffensive way to provide milk.

So therefore, I ask again: what are you doing about cow protection?

[Yofu]

Veganism is the the way to go as it is cow protection. Since if less people take milk then there will be less cow being bred for milk..

 

Taking milk as sold in supermarkets in modern times results in cows being killed. Fact!

[bhaktachris]

Nice Theist, thanks!

 

Yes Prabhupada and Lord Sri Krsna both have given us the duty of Protecting our Mother Cow, it MUST be done. Or become a Vegan. I agree with Yofu on that. Srila Prabhupada pointed out that actually anywhere you can protect a cow. We showed some how to do it on just a small spot in a city even!

There is always the negative excuse for not doing so, "there will be too many calfs and we will be over loaded with animals" but even that we have showed to be not true. A Mother Cow, will give milk for her lifetime from the birth of only one calf, if Mom is Loved, Cared for and seen as good as the Deity. That too we have now proof of from our Cow Protection Programs since 1977 when we started. http://protectacow.typepad.com/

 

Actually we even think that all the problems in Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon come from the followers and leaders especially not recognizing the fact that Prabhupada wanted us to focus on Cow Protection as the Cure.

 

Some say that we need to have so many Gurus for "guru reform" and others say that we need no more gurus, just more ritviks and to follow the so called final order.

 

But we understand that Prabhupada's Final Order was the same as his CONTINUING ORDER!!!!!!!!! which in the "end" was "Let me go on Parikrama to Govardhana Hill on Bullock Cart drinking Milk along the way" =COW PROTECTION!

 

Some say that we need to now so many years later (30) take him on the Bullock Cart, but that is just missing his continuing instructions, which is to perform Cow Protection. Lord Sri Krsna did so too. Even Lord Sri Krsna said to stop the rituals and just worship the Land and the Cow!

 

 

Tamal Krsna: But this idea… According to him [the kaviraja]… I mean obviously we’re all conditioned, and I mean he’s not claiming not to be a conditioned soul either, but according to him, going on this bullock cart is suicide. He said that within an hour or two hours, the bouncing and jumbling of the bullock cart will cause a heart attack…

Prabhupada: But I think I shall be cured [by traveling on the bullock cart in the fresh air and sun]

Tamal Krsna: Prabhupada says he thinks he will be cured by the parikrama.

Hamsadutta: Under the circumstances we have to consider whether Prabhupada’s opinion is more or less than the kaviraja’s, is what it comes down to. If Prabhupada says that by going on parikrama he feels he’ll be cured, then how can we continue to place arguments against him?

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Also, if you just let a calf drink as much as they wanted, they’d get sick.

 

Can anybody provide a citation from a scientific reference to support this claim? Sounds like a rationalization to me.

 

Of course, I enjoy my sweet-rice up at the Ashram as much as anybody (in my position).

[theist]

 

Can anybody provide a citation from a scientific reference to support this claim? Sounds like a rationalization to me.

 

Of course, I enjoy my sweet-rice up at the Ashram as much as anybody (in my position).

 

 

I don't know enough about cow behavior to say one way or another. Bhaktachris no doubt would know.

 

But his main point remains. If you are drinking commercial milk then you are involved in cow and calve slaughter. No way out of that one.

 

The Maharaja is saying that the emphasis should be on protecting cows and not on becoming vegan. If you are getting milk from protected cows, and can digest it, then go for it.

 

I was very happy to read this article from an Iskcon sannyasi.

[bhaktachris]

 

I don't know enough about cow behavior to say one way or another. Bhaktachris no doubt would know.

 

 

Also, if you just let a calf drink as much as they wanted, they’d get sick.

 

Hahahhahhahah, nice theist that you know me so well!

 

Yes, actualy in some circumstances it happens. I have seen it happen to calves that were recently weened off of Mom's milk, and i have also seen full grown Cows get sick from over doing it too. They can over flow their first stomach, and then they get the shivers and pee uncontrollably, they can even get blood in the urine.

[Guruvani]

I know Sivarama Swami personally and have lived in close quarters with him for some time.

I have nothing but the greatest respect for Sripad Sivarama Swami.

I think his views and statements on the issue are practical, logical and well thought out.

 

Sivarama Swami is one of the few ISKCON Swamis that I hold in very high esteem.

 

If you don't know him personally, I would say be careful to judge.

In my experience he is one of the most sober and serious Vaishnavas I have ever known.

[sevabhakta]

 

I don't know enough about cow behavior to say one way or another. Bhaktachris no doubt would know.

 

But his main point remains. If you are drinking commercial milk then you are involved in cow and calve slaughter. No way out of that one.

 

The Maharaja is saying that the emphasis should be on protecting cows and not on becoming vegan. If you are getting milk from protected cows, and can digest it, then go for it.

 

I was very happy to read this article from an Iskcon sannyasi.

 

The bolded statement is incorrect. If you are offering the commercial milk to the Lord that is.

 

Of course if someone is going to use this as an excuse to ignore the need for cow protection, or downplay the need to preach it, that would be ignorant.

[theist]

I have read your posts for a long time. You always have cow protection on your mind. You have to be a gopa.

 

[theist]

 

The bolded statement is incorrect. If you are offering the commercial milk to the Lord that is.

 

Of course if someone is going to use this as an excuse to ignore the need for cow protection, or downplay the need to preach it, that would be ignorant.

So prove your theory. What is your logic for saying what you say? It can be easily shown what happens to the mother that you take milk from. When she stops pruducing enough milk she is turned into hamburger.

 

Please show me where I am wrong or admit you are a cow killer by drinking commercial milk. It is one or the other.

[sevabhakta]

 

So prove your theory. What is your logic for saying what you say? It can be easily shown what happens to the mother that you take milk from. When she stops pruducing enough milk she is turned into hamburger.

 

Please show me where I am wrong or admit you are a cow killer by drinking commercial milk. It is one or the other.

 

You said,

"If you are drinking commercial milk then you are involved in cow and calve slaughter."

 

And I am simply saying that if you offer your bhoga sincerely to your Spiritual Master to offer to Lord Krsna, he takes care of any entaglements to reactions HIMSELF. So you, as the disciple are NOT INVOLVED. There is no involvement whatsoever after a offered meal is accepted by the Supreme Lord. That food is sanctified. You know it. You just want an arguement? Find the quote yourself then. This is 101.

 

Do you know what is in white sugar? I suppose that Srila Prabhupada was involved in cow slaughter because he personally purchased, or ordered someone to purchase white refined sugar while living in NYC in 1966, and trust me, all the sugar back then was tainted and you couldn't buy "sugar in the raw" back then.

 

I am not pleased either with the lack of progress toward protecting cows in America.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

 

You said,

 

And I am simply saying that if you offer your bhoga sincerely to your Spiritual Master to offer to Lord Krsna, he takes care of any entaglements to reactions HIMSELF. So you, as the disciple are NOT INVOLVED. There is no involvement whatsoever after a offered meal is accepted by the Supreme Lord. That food is sanctified. You know it. You just want an arguement? Find the quote yourself then. This is 101.

 

Do you know what is in white sugar? I suppose that Srila Prabhupada was involved in cow slaughter because he personally purchased, or ordered someone to purchase white refined sugar while living in NYC in 1966, and trust me, all the sugar back then was tainted and you couldn't buy "sugar in the raw" back then.

 

I am not pleased either with the lack of progress toward protecting cows in America.

 

Hare Krsna

So you are admitting that the cows that are enslaved to give you milk are slaughtered (their male calves are used for veal BTW). But since you figure Krsna is accepting your offering He is stopping the bloody result from landing on your head. So that is your justification for engaging in cow slaughter.

 

 

HH Sivarama Swami:But if we do keep as many cows as possible, and if we have cow protection, and if devotees and congregation members are actually protecting those cows and maintaining them, then we can have enough milk to provide temples and congregation members and everyone with milk.

Then you’re above this kind of criticism. You don’t need to say, “Oh welll, I’m a Hare Krishna, I’ve offered it to Krishna, and therefore I’m free from the reaction.” It is questionable if you’re free from the reaction. Why? Srila Prabhupada has made it clear that our duty is cow protection. Krishna set the personal example of cow protection. Therefore, just because we are devotees, just because we offered some milk then we think we’re free from the reaction for the violence that’s involved in procuring that milk–and remember that the cow, the bull, and the calf are later all slaughtered, and that’s something you’re also involved in when you’re drinking milk–then you have a very hard argument to try to defeat. In fact, it’s not an argument you can defeat.

Therefore Srila Prabhupada gave us a very simple formula to defeat that argument, so that we don’t have to fall back on strawman tactics and arguments: he gave us cow protection, which is a completely friendly, non-violent, and inoffensive way to provide milk.

So therefore, I ask again: what are you doing about cow protection?

[sevabhakta]

 

So you are admitting that the cows that are enslaved to give you milk are slaughtered (their male calves are used for veal BTW). But since you figure Krsna is accepting your offering He is stopping the bloody result from landing on your head. So that is your justification for engaging in cow slaughter.

 

No, that is your concoction. I said what I said and it is the truth.

 

Your straw man deflection trying to paint me as engaging in cow slaughter is petty and trite.

 

What the heck are you on? How can you paint someone quoting the philosophy as using the truth hypocritically to justify something that is a grievous crime? And paint all the glasses of milk offered by thousands of devotees over decades as unbreakable chains to the karmic reaction of cow torture.

 

You have got to get out more.

 

Not everyone is trying to use the philosophy to justify the continuation of evil deeds.

 

I would like to have seen you try your tapdance in front of Srila Prabhupada.

 

He would have told you to go get a cow, protect it and milk it, and come back and offer the milk to the temple for consumption, and in the meantime to keep your trap shut from condemning his other disciples who don't have cows or access to humanely treated cows.

 

I advocate for everyone to use a reasonable and gradual approach with the goal to reduce cow torture and increase cow protection. This all or nothing attitude is extreme, arrogant, and counterproductive.

[theist]

I should get out more but it has been cold here the last week so I am hanging out at home.

 

You should learn about the modern factory farm dairy industry cow killer. You think you are free from karma and can kill Krsna's cows at will. You poor schmuck.

 

Just reread HH Sivarama's article over and over until you get it. You may be a milk drinker but you are far from a cow protector no matter what you tell yourself. Get an education on the subject then talk.

 

www.milksucks.com

[theist]

You know a lot of devotees seem so caught up in such a strange version of earth reality that it is hard to believe such otherwise intelligent people could get so turned around.

 

Some story from the Purana's about cow's blood going into the earth and producing red colored vegetables and a certain section of Hare Krsna's won't eat carrots. However these same people will drink milk from enslaved & tortured cows, whose calves are taken from them at birth to become veal, and then slaughtered when they produce too little milk all to provide profits for the demons who run the factory farm cow slaughter industry.

 

These very same people them advertise themselves as cow protectors and even worship God as Gopala Govinda.

 

There are some disconnected wires some place my friends.

[Yofu]

 

I know Sivarama Swami personally and have lived in close quarters with him for some time.

I have nothing but the greatest respect for Sripad Sivarama Swami.

I think his views and statements on the issue are practical, logical and well thought out.

 

Sivarama Swami is one of the few ISKCON Swamis that I hold in very high esteem.

 

If you don't know him personally, I would say be careful to judge.

In my experience he is one of the most sober and serious Vaishnavas I have ever known.

 

Hey.. Guruvani check this out:

 

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0011/ET10-6407.html

 

Also his Krishna lila books are not his own realisations but what he heard from Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

Sivaramas' like the rest of them....dishonest

[Guruvani]

 

Hey.. Guruvani check this out:

 

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0011/ET10-6407.html

 

Also his Krishna lila books are not his own realisations but what he heard from Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

Sivaramas' like the rest of them....dishonest

 

Well, I don't know about all that, but people do change and show different aspects of their personality under different situations that sometimes turn out to be different than we thought.

 

Many of my old Gobrothers have gone in directions that I can no longer appreciate.

I guess it could happen to Sivarama Swami as well.

 

At any rate, I remember him as a very serious devotee, even if he doesn't share some of my personal viewpoints on some issues.

[Guruvani]

I don't know of any Vedic injunction that says that the person who buys milk from a farmer who eventually kills the cows is also a party to the cow killing.

 

I think the accusation that it is so is an unsubstantiated claim that cannot be supported with Vedic shastric authority.

 

Ideally, milk should be bought from farmers who do not kill cows, but if that is not possible then the poor cows should not be prohibited from giving milk just because she will be killed at some later date.

 

Milk has been described as "liquid religion".

It doesn't become evil because the cow gets killed later.

 

The Vegan religion feels all warm and fuzzy about themselves because they don't drink milk, but they will suck the blood of mother Earth and drive cars.

 

They engage in violence to mother Earth and all mankind by driving gas powered vehicles, but they want to be all self-righteous and arrogant about the fact they don't use dairy products.

 

Big deal.

whooopeeee!

Vegans are hypocrites and bigots.

 

They drink carrot juice till they turn orange like a carrot.

Maybe they are working on becoming a carrot in their next life?

[cbrahma]

The laws of karma are hopelessly complicated and entangled.

Vegetarianism does not in and of itself relieve us of karma. Plants are living things. Whenever we eat we kill something. The idea of satva guna is to minimize the karma but there is no elimination except through the grace of God.

To impune the purchasers of milk for contributing to cow abuse is to claim that one has deciphered the karmic ramifications of the food industry.

That one has the formula for dodging its karma.

Unless you have your own farm, your own cows you will reap the karma of the food industry every time you purchase anything at the supermarket.

These food growers and purveyors are mega-corporations. There are only a few business entities 'at the top' of the food chain that own and run everything.

So if you think buying your soya milk is rechanelling your karma, think again.

[Guruvani]

 

So if you think buying your soya milk is rechanelling your karma, think again.

 

Yes, soybean eating contributes to global warming.

Soybeans have digestive inhibitors and cause flatulence.

 

These Vegans are causing global warming with their indigestion and bad gas passing.

 

Without the calcium in milk the digestive system doesn't work right and thus greenhouse gasses are emitted in huge quantity by Vegans.

[sevabhakta]

BG 3.13 Translation.

 

"The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."

 

Which part of "RELEASED FROM ALL KINDS OF SINS"

 

don't you understand Theist?

[theist]

 

I don't know of any Vedic injunction that says that the person who buys milk from a farmer who eventually kills the cows is also a party to the cow killing.

 

I think the accusation that it is so is an unsubstantiated claim that cannot be supported with Vedic shastric authority.

 

Ideally, milk should be bought from farmers who do not kill cows, but if that is not possible then the poor cows should not be prohibited from giving milk just because she will be killed at some later date.

 

Milk has been described as "liquid religion".

It doesn't become evil because the cow gets killed later.

 

The Vegan religion feels all warm and fuzzy about themselves because they don't drink milk, but they will suck the blood of mother Earth and drive cars.

 

They engage in violence to mother Earth and all mankind by driving gas powered vehicles, but they want to be all self-righteous and arrogant about the fact they don't use dairy products.

 

Big deal.

whooopeeee!

Vegans are hypocrites and bigots.

 

They drink carrot juice till they turn orange like a carrot.

Maybe they are working on becoming a carrot in their next life?

So muct verbal nonsense. The title of the thread is Cow protectors not Vegans.

 

BTW I no longer use soya products either and I have never had a drivers license. What do you drive again?

[theist]

 

BG 3.13 Translation.

 

"The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."

 

Which part of "RELEASED FROM ALL KINDS OF SINS"

 

don't you understand Theist?

Maybe you should read my posts more carefully if you are going to respond to them.

 

I understand you are suporting the killing of cows and calves by drinking commercial milk and preforming a certain religious ritual first thinking it will remove your karma.

 

What I am saying is that the way the cows are presently treated in factory farms makes your offering meaningless. You people remind me of the christians who sin all week and then go to confession on Sunday to become free from the effects of those sins and then do it all again the next week. Or maybe the bathing of the elephant example will have more meaning for you.

 

I've noticed some of you can't approach Sivarama's arguement directly so you have begun a campaign of "guilt by associatrion", in your minds, by linking him up with NM. How cheap.

[sevabhakta]

 

Maybe you should read my posts more carefully if you are going to respond to them.

 

I understand you are suporting the killing of cows and calves by drinking commercial milk and preforming a certain religious ritual first thinking it will remove your karma.

 

What I am saying is that the way the cows are presently treated in factory farms makes your offering meaningless. You people remind me of the christians who sin all week and then go to confession on Sunday to become free from the effects of those sins and then do it all again the next week. Or maybe the bathing of the elephant example will have more meaning for you.

 

I've noticed some of you can't approach Sivarama's arguement directly so you have begun a campaign of "guilt by associatrion", in your minds, by linking him up with NM. How cheap.

 

Theist, why do you presume to know the devotion behind another person's offering to their dieties?

 

Why do you insist that the fact that cows were being treated poorly in factory farms means that all the commercial milk offered by Srila Prabhupada and his direct disciples was rendered a meaningless offering?

 

I am astounded.

[Guruvani]

 

 

I've noticed some of you can't approach Sivarama's arguement directly so you have begun a campaign of "guilt by associatrion", in your minds, by linking him up with NM. How cheap.

 

I know for sure that for many years Sivarama Swami consumed dairy products that came from commercial dairies.

I was with him in Chicago and also on Tamal's farm in Oklahoma.

 

Maybe he finally got in a situation where he can only take dairy products from protected cows and that is fine and good.

 

But, not everybody has that option.