Not vegans, cow protectors.

[theist]

 

Theist, why do you presume to know the devotion behind another person's offering to their dieties?

 

Why do you insist that the fact that cows were being treated poorly in factory farms means that all the commercial milk offered by Srila Prabhupada and his direct disciples was rendered a meaningless offering?

 

I am astounded.

 

Waving the Prabhupada flag will not cover your actions. I am talking about your actions today not someone else's 30-40 yars ago.

 

When you buy commercial milk you are supporting cow slaughter directly. That is not disputable. That is what I object to and that is what you will be held responsible for.

 

Cow slaughter is not cow protection.

[theist]

 

I know for sure that for many years Sivarama Swami consumed dairy products that came from commercial dairies.

I was with him in Chicago and also on Tamal's farm in Oklahoma.

 

Maybe he finally got in a situation where he can only take dairy products from protected cows and that is fine and good.

 

But, not everybody has that option.

 

And I ate meat until I was 18 and learned a better way.

 

Who knows what his situation is. We have to be concerned with our own. Life deals us all choices that at the time seem difficult. We are held reasponsible for how we respond to the hand dealt each one of us personally.

 

He has put forward a certain idea. I have yet to hear that idea defeated or even approached directly.

 

Of course it is obvious why. As soon as you admit he is right then devotees must change their habit of buying living off the milk of murdered cows.

 

Change comes hard sometime.

[sevabhakta]

 

Waving the Prabhupada flag will not cover your actions. I am talking about your actions today not someone else's 30-40 yars ago.

 

When you buy commercial milk you are supporting cow slaughter directly. That is not disputable. That is what I object to and that is what you will be held responsible for.

 

Cow slaughter is not cow protection.

 

There you go again "talking about my actions".

 

You don't even know me, and this discussion is not about the straw man of what your conditioned mind imagines "my actions" regarding offering bhoga to the Dieties are.

 

This discussion is whether a person is released from the sinful reactions in relation to how their bhoga is obtained, and according to the Bhagavad Gita if the bhoga is offered as sacrifice the person who does so is released from the sinful reactions involved.

 

You have a different theology on the subject than the Bhagavad Gita.

 

Call me a Prabhupada flag waver anytime. I reject your version.

[Guruvani]

Has anybody stopped to think that maybe the cows in commercial dairies get some benefit if the milk they produce is bought and offered to Krishna.

 

After all, they are Krishna's cows.

Why shouldn't milk from Krishna's cows be offered to Krishna so that they can get some benefit?

 

Anyone who thinks they have it all figured out and that offering milk from commercial dairies offends Krishna has no proof that Krishna does not accept the milk from cows that get slaughtered.

 

It is really up to Krishna which milk he accepts and which milk he doesn't.

I find it hard to believe that Krishna doesn't accept milk from any of his cows even if some demon dairy farmer kills them when they aren't good producers anymore.

 

Krishna loves cows - Govinda.

Is he prejudiced against the poor cows that are slaughtered by some demon?

I wouldn't think so.

 

Such cows need love and affection and a chance to offer their milk to Krishna.

[sevabhakta]

 

Has anybody stopped to think that maybe the cows in commercial dairies get some benefit if the milk they produce is bought and offered to Krishna.

 

After all, they are Krishna's cows.

Why shouldn't milk from Krishna's cows be offered to Krishna so that they can get some benefit?

 

Anyone who thinks they have it all figured out and that offering milk from commercial dairies offends Krishna has no proof that Krishna does not accept the milk from cows that get slaughtered.

 

It is really up to Krishna which milk he accepts and which milk he doesn't.

I find it hard to believe that Krishna doesn't accept milk from any of his cows even if some demon dairy farmer kills them when they aren't good producers anymore.

 

Krishna loves cows - Govinda.

Is he prejudiced against the poor cows that are slaughtered by some demon?

I wouldn't think so.

 

Such cows need love and affection and a chance to offer their milk to Krishna.

 

Yes, very nice, and while doing that over time, we should be protecting as many cows as is possible with the facilities Krsna gives us at the time, and it would be nice training for Ksatriya types to go on some nighttime liberation missions, and even nicer if eventually some of us were so purified that we could go around chastising those who harm the cows.

 

Baby steps, Grasshoppah, slow and steady liberates the cow.

[Guruvani]

With all this talk about cow slaughter maybe we could take a moment to think about all the human babies that get slaughtered everyday around the world in abortion clinics?

 

The world is full of injustice.

 

Refusing to offer the milk of commerical dairy cows is a very lame idea because it prevents those cows from doing the greatest thing they could do which is have their milk offered to Krishna.

 

If any cows needs that mercy and that opportunity it is the commercial dairy cows who are Krishna's cows that have been kidnapped by some demon dairy farmer.

 

Let's stand up for the commercial dairy cows and offer their milk to Krishna so that Krishna and the cows will all be happy.

 

It is not supporting cow slaughter.

It is trying to help the cows acquire some sukriti so that in their next life they can have a better situation.

[Guruvani]

Commercial dairy cow. (see how beautiful she is)

 

 

Please don't deprive her of the chance to offer her milk to Krishna!!

 

Don't support cow slaughter - support cows!!

[theist]

 

There you go again "talking about my actions".

 

You don't even know me, and this discussion is not about the straw man of what your conditioned mind imagines "my actions" regarding offering bhoga to the Dieties are.

 

This discussion is whether a person is released from the sinful reactions in relation to how their bhoga is obtained, and according to the Bhagavad Gita if the bhoga is offered as sacrifice the person who does so is released from the sinful reactions involved.

 

You have a different theology on the subject than the Bhagavad Gita.

 

Call me a Prabhupada flag waver anytime. I reject your version.

 

Our actions are what this thread is about. And it is not a judgment based on speculation or needing to know you I am debating the legitamcy of your position as stated by you.

 

When Bhagavad-gita was written there were no factory farms and besides does it say something about milk in the Gita?

 

It does say something about cow protection, that I know.

 

The point is cow protection and not how to cleanse you of your sinful reactions. If you are ever able to understand that you would make sense of this conversation and could track along with the topic.

 

Until then....

[theist]

 

Krishna loves cows - Govinda.

Is he prejudiced against the poor cows that are slaughtered by some demon?

I wouldn't think so.

 

Those demons that slaughter the cows work for you everytime you buy commercial milk.

One who hires a hitman is still commiting murder even though he does slit the victims throat personally.

[theist]

Guruvani, from what you have said I was under the impression that you do not offer your food just as you wrote you no longer chant. So what cow is benefited by your milk consumption again?

[theist]

Dairy cows are roaming free and happy in the pasture Guruvani. Where did you get that picture froma dairy commercial?

 

Here is a picture of two young bulls destined to become veal. They are placed in holding crates so small they cannot turn around so their muscles become as tender as possible. They are also fed a diet that makes them anemic for the same reason.

 

After a few weeks of standing there in one position and in their own urine and feces they are taken out to be slaughtered. This is what happens to the male children of your enslaved milk cows.

 

There's blood in your milk. Bon appetit.

[sevabhakta]

 

Our actions are what this thread is about. And it is not a judgment based on speculation or needing to know you I am debating the legitamcy of your position as stated by you.

 

When Bhagavad-gita was written there were no factory farms and besides does it say something about milk in the Gita?

 

It does say something about cow protection, that I know.

 

The point is cow protection and not how to cleanse you of your sinful reactions. If you are ever able to understand that you would make sense of this conversation and could track along with the topic.

 

Until then....

 

Oh, is what you say above really the only point of this thread? I think not. Let me refer you to the original post where you pasted a question asked to Sivarama Swami " Vegans claim that we are contributing to factory farming and calves being deprived of their mothers’ milk. How do we address this argument?"

 

And within the answer given by Sivarama Swami, YOU put the emphasis on the following statement.

 

"Therefore, just because we are devotees, just because we offered some milk then we think we’re free from the reaction for the violence that’s involved in procuring that milk–and remember that the cow, the bull, and the calf are later all slaughtered, and that’s something you’re also involved in when you’re drinking milk–then you have a very hard argument to try to defeat. In fact, it’s not an argument you can defeat."

 

So while you say the point of the thread was cow protection, you quote Sivarama Swami here making a mistake.

 

A devotee doesn't think they are free from the "reaction for the violence".

 

A devotee is free from sinful reactions according to Lord Krsna as per BG 3.13.

 

I don't care what Yuga the Gita was spoken in, that is sophistry, the Gita is eternal, and quite frankly if there weren't sinful reactions associated with gathering bhoga in Dwarapa Yuga then why would Krsna waste his time telling us how he was going to "release" us from them when we sacrifice it to him???

 

What philosophy are you here discussing anyway?

 

Sinful reactions come from piously protecting cows and growing nice vegetables and eating them. If it is not offered to Krsna, you are verily sinning.

 

 

SB 3.25.10 Purport

 

In this material world, activities for material enjoyment which are considered to be pious are also sinful.

 

 

It is illogical to deduce that any type of bhoga procured by a devotee in a reasonable and customary way through honest trade would by its history be so karmically entangled in ignorance that it would override the truth of Lord Krsna's word.

 

This is just lunch righteousness, and is not based on Lord Krsna's own words.

 

Why not advocate cow-protection on its own merits instead of neglecting scripture to force a neurotic guilt trip onto people?

[theist]

 

Oh, is what you say above really the only point of this thread? I think not. Let me refer you to the original post where you pasted a question asked to Sivarama Swami " Vegans claim that we are contributing to factory farming and calves being deprived of their mothers’ milk. How do we address this argument?"

 

And within the answer given by Sivarama Swami, YOU put the emphasis on the following statement.

 

"Therefore, just because we are devotees, just because we offered some milk then we think we’re free from the reaction for the violence that’s involved in procuring that milk–and remember that the cow, the bull, and the calf are later all slaughtered, and that’s something you’re also involved in when you’re drinking milk–then you have a very hard argument to try to defeat. In fact, it’s not an argument you can defeat."

 

So while you say the point of the thread was cow protection, you quote Sivarama Swami here making a mistake.

 

A devotee doesn't think they are free from the "reaction for the violence".

 

A devotee is free from sinful reactions according to Lord Krsna as per BG 3.13.

Yes and you are so sure you are such a sinless devotee right?

 

 

I don't care what Yuga the Gita was spoken in, that is sophistry, the Gita is eternal, and quite frankly if there weren't sinful reactions associated with gathering bhoga in Dwarapa Yuga then why would Krsna waste his time telling us how he was going to "release" us from them when we sacrifice it to him???

 

What philosophy are you here discussing anyway?

 

Who said anything about yuga? I simply said factory farming and mass cow slaughter was not around when the gita was spoken. Factor farms are around 40 years old or so.

 

No philosophy you understand apparently.

 

 

Sinful reactions come from piously protecting cows and growing nice vegetables and eating them. If it is not offered to Krsna, you are verily sinning.

I am concerned with cow protection and not sinful reactions. How often must I say this. I accept the karmic reactions that come from my vegan eating of mostly unoffered food.

 

 

 

It is illogical to deduce that any type of bhoga procured by a devotee in a reasonable and customary way through honest trade would by its history be so karmically entangled in ignorance that it would override the truth of Lord Krsna's word.

And you consider cow slaughter an honest trade do you?

 

 

This is just lunch righteousness, and is not based on Lord Krsna's own words.

?

Why not advocate cow-protection on its own merits instead of neglecting scripture to force a neurotic guilt trip onto people?

I am talking about cow protection on it's own merits as was Sivarama in his article. Are you a crazy man or something?

 

Feeling guilty are you? And well you should. At least it shows you have some kind of conscience.

 

This concludes our conversation on the subject. Say what you like as I will but no more back and forth. Time is a terrible thing to waste.

[Nrsinghadev]

 

I've noticed some of you can't approach Sivarama's arguement directly so you have begun a campaign of "guilt by associatrion", in your minds, by linking him up with NM. How cheap.

 

Actually, that was the worst thing that I've read in this thread. That someone is taking association of Narayana Maharaj as an example for being an "evil" and bad thing which would turn Sivarama Maharaj into a bogus preacher. They obviously have no idea who is a pure devotee of the Lord and who's not. It's one thing to not feel any attraction for him, but to use his name in this way, that's really a sign of anti-devotional poison running through the veins.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

I've restrained myself from posting on this rather gripping discussion until this point, but now I feel that all involved are sort of losing it a bit. I shall thus simply point this out: I believe that you guys should try to learn the Hindu tradition in some more depth and at some more breadth than you have done at present. It is about time that you became acquainted with what can only be termed Vedic cow slaughter, which a perusal of the Shatapatha Brahmana would easily accomplish. Maybe you could also then find references in the Puranas and Itihasas as to the fact that daily, 2,000 bovines used to be killed in the palace of Rantideva, and that as well to feed brahmanas.

 

This whole emotional debate would then lose its significance. You want a renowned scholar who has documented this issue methodically - try Koenraad Elst.

[sevabhakta]

No one has defeated my position based on the Gita.

 

The only one getting emotional is Theist, attacking my character, making assumptions about my devotion, my perspective on cow slaughter, ascribing guilt, and other such things.

 

I actually feel bad enough watching him twist in the wind trying to maintain his beliefs so I will bow out.

 

Hare Krsna

[cbrahma]

There are so many reasons for being vegetarian. Just as there are for being vegan.

The most overriding reason of course is ethical - to prevent the killing of innocent animals.

But the bhatka is vegetarian on the orders of Krsna. "patram puspam phalam toyam..."

Prabhupada says milk is 'liquid religiosity' . That it enhances brain substance..

There was an issue about cod liver oil being added to commercial milk and yet because of the importance of milk in bhakti yoga, Prabhpada allowed it.

 

So these spiritual reasons override the 'milk leads to cow slaughter' type of argument.

 

Ethically I agree that purchasing anything in a supermarket embroils us in the exploitation karma of the food producers and distributors.

'Following the dollar', as it were to its uses in the meat production industry is certainly an ethical concern.

But it is not a direct effect.

Buying milk is worlds apart from buying a steak.

The key word ethically is 'contributes'.

If I milk a commercial cow, I am not killing it. If I drink that milk, I am not killing it.

So the reasoning appeals to cash flow and economics.

That our purchase funds the ultimate fate of the cow and its calf.

But that reason is misguided on the subject of veganism. There is no guarantee that milk money is dedicated to calf slaughter any more than carrot money or soya money....

[theist]

 

With all this talk about cow slaughter maybe we could take a moment to think about all the human babies that get slaughtered everyday around the world in abortion clinics?

 

Yes why not. Start a thread. There are many message boards where one can go and make the case for ending abortion. It really is a highway to hell.

[theist]

 

But that reason is misguided on the subject of veganism. There is no guarantee that milk money is dedicated to calf slaughter any more than carrot money or soya money....

 

Sorry cbrahma this is just 100% wrong. There is a direct connection. The cow being milked is forcably impregnated to produce more cows to milk. Male calves that are born are used to produce veal. THESE ARE INDISPUTABLE FACTS!

 

Money spent on carrots go to produce more carrots. Supply and demand. The higher the demand the more the supply will beincreased to meet it.

 

This is not a case like supermarkets that sell carrots also sell meat. That is also dispicable and should be avoided if possible. I live in Berkeley a supposedly progressive place yet there is no store that sells produce that also is without a meat section. Thank God for farmers markets which are all over the city. That helps but doesn't solve the problem.

 

But these are two related but separate problems.

Again this is about cow protection and not veganism.

 

My offering to Krsna is abstaining from milk in the name of cow protection. I believe that is more pleasing to Him then a cup of hot banana milk at night.

[theist]

"Milk enhances brain substance." Yes I have heard this over and over but I don't accept that it refers to what is called milk in today's world. Milk from tortured cows awaiting slaughter and treated like machines is hardly the vedic ideal.

 

BTW did you know there is an acceptable level of pus allowed in your commercial milk? That's right every cup of milk you offer to Krsna has some pus in it from the infected udders of cows. That is caused by the hormones and other chemicals they pump into the cows to make them produced way more milk then is natural and their udders drag on the ground and become infected.

 

Don't believe me? Run a google on it.

 

Bon appetit

[cbrahma]

 

Sorry cbrahma this is just 100% wrong. There is a direct connection. The cow being milked is forcably impregnated to produce more cows to milk. Male calves that are born are used to produce veal. THESE ARE INDISPUTABLE FACTS!

 

 

But these are two related but separate problems.

 

 

My offering to Krsna is abstaining from milk in the name of cow protection. I believe that is more pleasing to Him then a cup of hot banana milk at night.

I understand your position perfectly. But drinking the milk of cows is an non-violent alternative to drinking their blood. That is Vedic.

Your concept of what is direct is stretched.

The slaughter of the cows and calves is a BYPRODUCT of the milk production. It is a systemic evil.

The purchaser is not the murder. The purchaser is responsible only economically and I've already adressed the economic argument.

You cannot sanely, ethically or logically argue that eating yoghurt is tantamount to eating a steak.

 

You don't know where the money goes. It's all to the same deep pockets.

Agri-business is the culprit and agri-business sells produce, dairy and meat.

 

If you want to claim karmic purity, then you absolutely need to grow your own everything and even then there is karma.

[cbrahma]

 

"Milk enhances brain substance." Yes I have heard this over and over but I don't accept that it refers to what is called milk in today's world. Milk from tortured cows awaiting slaughter and treated like machines is hardly the vedic ideal.

 

 

Kali Yuga defies the Vedic ideal, of course. Prabhupada knew about the milk industry. He knew is wasn't pure. Yet he allowed it to be served to the deities. That was approx 40 years ago. The industry practice didn't change that much.

[theist]

 

I understand your position perfectly. But drinking the milk of cows is an non-violent alternative to drinking their blood. That is Vedic.

Your concept of what is direct is stretched.

The slaughter of the cows and calves is a BYPRODUCT of the milk production. It is a systemic evil.

The purchaser is not the murder. The purchaser is responsible only economically and I've already adressed the economic argument.

You cannot sanely, ethically or logically argue that eating yoghurt is tantamount to eating a steak.

 

You don't know where the money goes. It's all to the same deep pockets.

Agri-business is the culprit and agri-business sells produce, dairy and meat.

 

If you want to claim karmic purity, then you absolutely need to grow your own everything and even then there is karma.

 

Actually you do not understand my position. You are just coming up with one Red Herring after another and it is useless for me to take them all on endlessly. I've done that enough on an animal rights forum to know it leads no where.

 

And BTW I said nothing about karmic purity. Please stop defining my position for me. For the 100th time I will say my position is

COW PROTECTION!!!!!!!

[Guruvani]

 

For the 100th time I will say my position is

COW PROTECTION!!!!!!!

You aren't doing anything to protect cows.

You don't keep cows or protect cows.

 

You are just laying your hackneyed Vegan holier-than-thou trip on everyone and being a false protector of cows.

 

Let me know when you get some cows to protect.

I will send you a bail of hay.

 

Talking Vegan nonsense on a forum and putting down people who use dairy products has nothing to do with cow protection.

 

You are just as guilty as anyone.

You aren't doing anything really to protect cows except blowing hot air.

[indulekhadasi]

Guruvani Prabhuji

 

I may not like your language but I agree with you that drinking milk isn't a crime, like Vegans say it is. The cow is one of our mothers because by providing us with her milk she nourishes us. This is according to the Vedic literature not my own words.