Not vegans, cow protectors.

[cbrahma]

 

Actually you do not understand my position. You are just coming up with one Red Herring after another and it is useless for me to take them all on endlessly. I've done that enough on an animal rights forum to know it leads no where.

 

And BTW I said nothing about karmic purity. Please stop defining my position for me. For the 100th time I will say my position is

COW PROTECTION!!!!!!!

Your position of Vedic cow protection under the guise of milk renunciation is nothing new. It is certainly a contradiction in terms.

The non-sequitur logic of indicting the purchasers of milk for the whole corruption of cattle farming is deeply flawed. It conflates economic support with the direct commission of cow slaughter.

 

You don't have to kill a cow to milk it. A cow doesn't even have to be killed to eat its flesh. It can die of natural causes.

The fact that dairy cows are slaughtered simply does not make drinking their milk cow-killing.

What we keep going in circles about is the simple ethical problem of systemic evil. Food production is systematically corrupt and cannot be nicely compartmentalized into , here we have the milk money, and there we have the carrot money.

You wish it were that simple so you can continue to champion your milkless , cowless cause.

If you want to change the methods of milk production why don't you lobby some support to break these agri-business corporations.

You stop drinking milk and they go on putting the milk in every conceivable type of food, cakes cookies, candies ...

Your abstinence saves not one calf.

[sevabhakta]

I put some more thought into this subject.

 

Cow protection directly implies different standards for the different ages and genders of the cows. There are various degrees and stages of protecting cows. There is perhaps some slight consistent protection of the bodies of 1000 milkers on an assembly line, and then there is loving protection of a mother cow, a pasture, a bull to have a calf with, lovingly milking her, etc.

 

Is abstaining from drinking milk from cows who your neighbor tortures every day cow protection. I say yes. Will it be an effective strategy? If karma dictates yes, you will influence others, and there will be enough of a boycott that the dairyman might change his ways, etc. If karma dictates NO, then you will just go milkless, but guilt free.

 

If there is another humane alternative, you might seek it out OR CREATE IT YOURSELF, and there you go. You got milk.

 

From the transcendental viewpoint, we take milk where we can get it and offer it to Guru and Krsna. We are not yet cow protectors in the fullest sense, but that is our goal, and we make more progress toward it than those who do not have it as their goal, or who have it as their goal but do not understand the vedic method of complete loving cow protection.

 

It is dishonesty to rest on one's spiritual laurels, and take commercial milk if a little effort and research will reveal a more humane alternative, even if a little more expensive. If not, commercial milk will not only do fine for making offerings, if you are honestly in transition to vedic cow protection, but the milk of those cows is being offered to Lord Krsna by sincere devotees, and THAT IS THE HIGHEST PROTECTION FOR THOSE COWS AT THE MOMENT. You are consciously and willingly starting their transcendental link by offering them indirect service to Krsna.

 

This is watering the root. Those cows are now first in line to be liberated by the future combined efforts of devotees and humanitarian karmi groups. That commercial dairy farm could soon after be chosen at random for a new pilot project of the diary industry where they test newer more humane treatment of cows based on public demand and pressure from activist groups. How Krsna arranges their further service and release from their terrible karma may then be mostly out of our direct ability to influence, but the point is we water the root, Krsna takes care of the rest.

 

I know some vaisya devotees who protect cows to a very high degree. I met the cows and they were truly alive, playful, and it was such a singular experience. Their milk was divine.

 

When I decide to offer and drink commercial milk, whose nutritional value is anywhere from dubious to poisonous, I remember, envy, and admire him.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktachris]

I read through this for a while and saw the "Prabhupada Flags" a little.

 

But really, the only ones who can really wave Prabhupada's/Krishna's flags are the ones who understand that Prabhupada's Movement was heading in a certain way............. Towards City Temples with Satelite Cow Protection Temples where the lifestyle is "Vrndavana Life" providing Non-Violent Cow's Milk.

 

Prabhupada did say when the demons were more and more taking over his movement ("sinister movement") with the ("poisonous tree") gaining more and more control, that he (Prabhupada) had not finished his Mission, and said that the still 50% left undone was Cow Protection (Varnashrama is centered around Go-Raksha)

 

We think that the part left undone is now the %100 left undone, because ultimately Prabhupada did say that the city life was hellish life, and that the Vrndavana life was the one that we (Krishna Bhaktas/Prabhupada Bhaktas) live.

Theist you have done well, but like the Poisonous Tree and the Sinister Movement people, who took root in late 1977 within Iskcon, they will never listen to Srila Prabhupada, and how he said "I think it will CURE me" to take Milk ride in Bullock Cart and go to Govardhana Hill on Govardhana Hill Day. Which to us who believe in the Lord GOvinda and Prabhupada we trust, is a sure sign that the CURE for all ills of this world what to speak of Iskcon Body of Prabhupada, is to drink Protected Cows Milk and ride to the temple in Bullock Cart not buses cars and trucks.

 

Thanks again Theist, you are agitating the minds of the followers of the Sinister Cult, who love the Poisonous Tree. But sometimes i think it a waste of time, better to just Protect the Cow as Krishna/Prabhupada Instructs, at home away from those naysayers, who love the blood of the Unprotected Cow.

[bhaktachris]

By the way, i joined in 1976, and we worked very very hard to provide Srila Prabhupada, Protected Cows Milk wearever he went. He did want that as best, and understood that in the emergency point of not having enough Cow Protection Temples as Satelites around the Cities that offering Milk from Slaughter house cows wouuld have to be, until the emergency was over, and we would have enough devotees Protecting Cows to feed all devotees no matter where they were.

[Guruvani]

 

who love the blood of the Unprotected Cow.

 

As he drives off into the sunset in his car fueled by the blood of an unprotected mother Earth.

[bhaktachris]

Prabhupada's Cows under our care lived till about 20 on average. We learned over the years, that they could give milk for their entire life time from one calf birth.

 

Slaughter House Cows live on average only 3.7 years.

[bhaktachris]

 

As he drives off into the sunset in his car fueled by the blood of an unprotected mother Earth.

 

Like Theist, that won't work on me. Sorry.

 

I have got myself to the point of generating more electricity than i need, by water power, coming down from the Protected Cows Paddock. Now i sell it to the neighbors, and i am buying a car, that will use that electricity only that i generate myself. Untill then giddy up Bharat, giddy up Bali!

 

What kind of car do you drive?

[Guruvani]

The fact is that most ISKCON temples around the world used commercial cows milk in large quantity since day one in ISKCON and with the knowledge and approval of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I worked in several ISKCON temples I can remember well the many gallons of milk in plastic jugs from the grocery store that went through ISKCON temples.

 

Srila Prabhupada never ever made an issue out of using commercial cows milk or it would not have been practiced in ISKCON during the time of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The big stink about commercial cows milk is simply a pseudo-vegan on this forum trying to brag about his milkless diet as if that makes him some special holy person.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't object to using commercial cows milk.

 

So, I don't have a problem with it even though a few hypotcrites around here think they are holier-than-thou because they don't use commerical dairy milk products.

 

Who is protecting the carrots and celery from the juicers of these Vegans?

 

See, carrots and celery and many vegetables have to be killed in order to eat them.

 

It is not like taking a nut or a fruit off a tree.

 

These vegans think that killing vegetables is karma free.

It is NOT.

 

the cow is not killed to get the milk.

The carrot is killed to get it's juice.

[bhaktachris]

 

Who is protecting the carrots and celery from the juicers of these Vegans?

 

See, carrots and celery and many vegetables have to be killed in order to eat them.

 

It is not like taking a nut or a fruit off a tree.

 

These vegans think that killing vegetables is karma free.

It is NOT.

 

the cow is not killed to get the milk.

The carrot is killed to get it's juice.

 

Now that just shows that you do not grow your own Veggies, Fruits and Grains as well as Legumes. The 4 food groups along with Protected Cows Milk.

 

We do not kill any of these to feed ourselves.

 

Have you never grown Carrots? hahahahah it's obvious that you have not!

 

Carrots are Annuals, they die and then we harvest them. They are already dead! They just do not live longer than the time it takes for them to reach maturity/ripeness. All roots are like this.

 

Veggies too, we do not kill any plant to get our Veggies.

 

Fruits fall off the LIVING Tree.

 

Legumes also are not harvested untill the plant dies. That is just the way it is.

 

I am so sorry to burst your bubble along with Theist, but the only part of a so called vegatarian's life that is linked with death, is when you drink the milk of a Slaughter House Milk Cow.

 

We are Prasadarians

[Guruvani]

 

Like Theist, that won't work on me. Sorry.

 

I have got myself to the point of generating more electricity than i need, by water power, coming down from the Protected Cows Paddock. Now i sell it to the neighbors, and i am buying a car, that will use that electricity only that i generate myself. Untill then giddy up Bharat, giddy up Bali!

 

What kind of car do you drive?

 

Oh, so the nuclear energy that you are using to surf the net is just fine and dandy?

 

As long as you have a computer and posting on forums you are part of the "great sinister movement".

 

Do you know how many poisons were released into the environment to create the computer you are using now?

 

Silicon Valley from where most of these computers come from has some of the most toxic water in the world.

 

You aren't aloof from the "great sinister movement".

You are bought into it just like everyone else.

[bhaktachris]

 

Oh, so the nuclear energy that you are using to surf the net is just fine and dandy?

 

As long as you have a computer and posting on forums you are part of the "great sinister movement".

 

Do you know how many poisons were released into the environment to create the computer you are using now?

 

Silicon Valley from where most of these computers come from has some of the most toxic water in the world.

 

You aren't aloof from the "great sinister movement".

You are bought into it just like everyone else.

 

I use electricity that i generate myself, read more attentively please.

I know that the computer is bogus, so i got one that was in the dump. I was cleaning up MOther Nature.

[bhaktachris]

Hey! You are the Pot calling the Kettle "black".

 

I do not take part in supporting any kind of Killing. I try my hardest to fulfill Prabhupada's/Krishna's desire of a Devotee. I work hard to Protect all my Mothers. That is my duty. You do not try that hard, you try hard to find excuses.

 

Prabhupada called the life of a devotee, Simple Living/High Thinking. But your lifestyle is Simple Thinking/High Living. I reject your following and mixed up ideas. Now i have to get back to work, so don't use the "silence means you agree".

[sevabhakta]

The point is that lunch righteousness is just psuedo piety, especially when used to try and guilt or shame others into doing what you think they should.

 

Part of Srila Prabhupada's plan for the Krsna consciousness movement was to transition to a lighter and more harmonious way of living with mother earth and mother cow. He was very clear about the details too, if anyone cares to research what he said on the subject.

 

If that goal is diligently and honestly worked toward, there is no sinful reaction incurred when something that does not have a perfectly sattvik history in terms of cultivation and distribution, is offered to the dieties, DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD.

 

The dedication (devotion) to making the societal adjustments requested by the spiritual master is the essence. The reorganizing of society to reflect the mode of goodness is a secondary result that assists the sadhana process for most. But it is a secondary result of serious Bhaktas fulfilling the instruction of their spiritual master, and THAT IS THE PERFECTION, making the attempt with no attachment to the results. You will never perfectly defend every Jiva from suffering by your own Jainist/Vegan program of mental speculation.

 

By following the program of the acarya, you may or may not find yourself eventually in a supernaturally harmonious vedic society, or even have your own planet to run like that for a while, but only by his mercy, for Krsna's purpose, and don't bet on it.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

I can appreciate sevabhakta willing to take a second look at the issue. Although we are not in total argreement still that is all anyone can ask of another.

[theist]

One important point that is being missed by those who want to justify cow killing because they need the *brain tissue is that cows, or anyone else for that matter, are not just an abstract category or statistic or milk producing machine. There is an individual living connected to that cow form who is suffering incredibly at the hands of these demons. I choose not to support that and karmic reactions have nothing to do with it.

 

 

*Of course the question never pops up in peoples mind that if this so-called holy milk provides fine tissues for understanding spiritual life why in America is everyone so mad after materialism with no spiritual culture to speak of. People here consume an incredible amount of dairy products from birth onward.

 

Commercial milk is not vedic milk it is bloodmilk.

[cbrahma]

I really don't want to go another round with the points I've already made about the milk abstinence boycott.

It accomplishes nothing except making the abstainer feel righteous.

It is such a misunderstanding to claim that not drinking milk is Vedic.

So many similar claims can be made to show, quite logically, that the consumption of so many other vegetarian items can be traced to the abuse of Mother Earth and Mother Cow, simply by investigating the process by which they are delivered.

Prabhupada insisted on the consumption of milk only a few decades ago.

Cows were not treated much better then.

What is there to discuss?

[bhaktajan]

Here are some rudimentary reminders of the Dharma for which we've

been preparing are consciousness for [vs. the final exam at the time

of death]: "How to brace-ourselves to preach "Cow Protection"

[these and other controversial topics are already covered by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami in his books ---we must derive the logic, nectar, and, 'hidden-open-book-secrets' which

Srila Prabhupada had already pondered and elaborated for defeating debators]:

 

--

SB 1.17.3P—It is the duty of every householder to have cows and bulls

as household paraphernalia, not only for drinking milk, but also for

deriving religious principles. The follower of Vedic principles

worships cows on religious principles and respects brahmanas. The

cow's milk is required for the sacrificial fire, and by performing

sacrifices the householder can be happy. The cow's calf not only is

beautiful to look at, but also gives satisfaction to the cow, and so

she delivers as much milk as possible. But in the Kali-yuga, the

calves are separated from the cows as early as possible for purposes

which may not be mentioned in these pages of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The

cow stands with tears in her eyes, the sudra milkman draws milk from

the cow artificially, and when there is no milk the cow is sent to be

slaughtered. These greatly sinful acts are responsible for all the

troubles in present society. People do not know what they are doing

in the name of economic development. The influence of Kali will keep

them in the darkness of ignorance. Despite all endeavors for peace

and prosperity, they must try to see the cows and the bulls happy in

all respects. Foolish people do not know how one earns happiness by

making the cows and bulls happy, but it is a fact by the law of

nature. Let us take it from the authority of Srimad-Bhagavatam and

adopt the principles for the total happiness of humanity.

SB 1.17.9P—There has sometimes been agitation for the protection of

the cow, but for want of pious executive heads and suitable laws, the

cow and the bull are not given protection. The human society should

recognize the importance of the cow and the bull and thus give all

protection to these important animals . . . For protecting the cows

and brahminical culture, the Lord, who is very kind to the cow and

the brahmanas (go-brahmana- hitaya), will be pleased with us and will

bestow upon us real peace.

Adi Lila 17.154P— Everyone can understand that we drink the milk of

cows and take the help of bulls in producing agricultural products.

Therefore, since our real father gives us food grains and our mother

gives us milk with which to live, the cow and bull are considered our

father and mother. According to Vedic civilization, there are seven

mothers, of which the cow is one. . . . "What kind of religious

principle do you follow by killing your father and mother to eat

them?" In any civilized human society, no one would dare kill his

father and mother for the purpose of eating them. . . . religion

as patricide and matricide. . . . a principal commandment

is "Thou shalt not kill."

Light of the Bhagavata 27—Less intelligent people underestimate the

value of cow's milk. Cow's milk is also called gorasa, or the juice

from the body of the cow. Milk is the most valuable form of gorasa,

and from milk we can prepare many important and valuable foodstuffs

for the upkeep of the human body. The killing of cows by human

society is one of the grossest suicidal policies, and those who are

anxious to cultivate the human spirit must turn their attention first

toward the question of cow protection.

The Laws of Nature 1— Way of Knowing God: The cow produces milk

abundantly, not for herself but for human beings. That is proper

human food. God says, "Mrs. Cow, although you are producing milk, you

cannot drink it. It is for the human beings, who are more advanced

than animals." Of course, in the infant stage animals live off their

mother's milk, so the calves drink some of the cow's milk. But the

cow gives excess milk, and that excess is specifically meant for us.

We should accept whatever God has ordained as our proper food. But

no, because of the agitation of the tongue, we think, "Why should I

be satisfied eating grains, milk products, vegetables, and fruits?

Let me maintain a slaughterhouse and kill these cows. After drinking

their milk, just as I drank my mother's milk, let me kill them to

satisfy my tongue." You shouldn't think such nonsense . . .

SB 3.5.7P—The cow is the most important animal for developing the

human body to perfection. The body can be maintained by any kind of

foodstuff, but cow's milk is particularly essential for developing

the finer tissues of the human brain so that one can understand the

intricacies of transcendental knowledge. A civilized man is expected

to live on foodstuffs comprising fruits, vegetables, grains, sugar

and milk. The bull helps in the agricultural process of producing

grain, etc., and thus in one sense the bull is the father of

humankind, whereas the cow is the mother, for she supplies milk to

human society. A civilized man is therefore expected to give all

protection to the bulls and cows.

SB 4.6.9P— Generally the men of the higher classes of society—the

brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas—do not eat meat. Sometimes ksatriyas

go to the forest to kill animals like deer because they have to learn

the art of killing, and sometimes they eat the animals also. Sudras,

too, eat animals such as goats. Cows, however, are never meant to be

killed or eaten by human beings. In every sastra, cow killing is

vehemently condemned. Indeed, one who kills a cow must suffer for as

many years as there are hairs on the body of a cow. Manu-samhita

says, pravrittir esa bhutanam nivrittis tu maha-phala: we have many

tendencies in this material world, but in human life one is meant to

learn how to curb those tendencies. Those who desire to eat meat may

satisfy the demands of their tongues by eating lower animals, but

they should never kill cows, who are actually accepted as the mothers

of human society because they supply milk. The sastra especially

recommends, kasi-go-raksya: the vaisya section of humanity should

arrange for the food of the entire society through agricultural

activities and should give full protection to the cows, which are the

most useful animals because they supply milk to human society.

SB 8.6.12P— . . . Milk is compared to nectar, which one can drink

to become immortal. Of course, simply drinking milk will not make one

immortal, but it can increase the duration of one's life. In modern

civilization, men do not think milk to be important, and therefore

they do not live very long. Although in this age men can live up to

one hundred years, their duration of life is reduced because they do

not drink large quantities of milk. This is a sign of Kali-yuga. In

Kali-yuga, instead of drinking milk, people prefer to slaughter an

animal and eat its flesh. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His

instructions of Bhagavad-gita, advises go-raksya, which means cow

protection. The cow should be protected, milk should be drawn from

the cows, and this milk should be prepared in various ways. One

should take ample milk, and thus one can prolong one's life, develop

his brain, execute devotional service, and ultimately attain the

favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is essential to

get food grains and water by digging the earth, it is also essential

to give protection to the cows and take nectarean milk from their

milk bags . . .

SB 8.8.11P—. . . the five products received from the cow, namely

milk, yogurt, ghee, cow dung and cow urine, are required in all

ritualistic ceremonies performed according to the Vedic directions.

Cow urine and cow dung are uncontaminated, and since even the urine

and dung of a cow are important, we can just imagine how important

this animal is for human civilization. . . .

SB 10.6.19P— . . . to wave about the switch of a cow so as to

protect the child from all types of danger. There are so many

facilities afforded by cow protection, but people have forgotten

these arts. The importance of protecting cows is therefore stressed

by Krnsa in Bhagavad-gita (krsi-go-raksya- vanijyam vaisya-karma

svabhavajam [bg. 18.44]). Even now in the Indian villages surrounding

Vrndavana, the villagers live happily simply by giving protection to

the cow. They keep cow dung very carefully and dry it to use as fuel.

They keep a sufficient stock of grains, and because of giving

protection to the cows, they have sufficient milk and milk products

to solve all economic problems. Simply by giving protection to the

cow, the villagers live so peacefully. Even the urine and stool of

cows have medicinal value. . . .

BG 14.16P— . . . indulgence in animal killing for the taste of the

tongue is the grossest kind of ignorance. A human being has no need

to kill animals, because God has supplied so many nice things. If one

indulges in meat-eating anyway, it is to be understood that he is

acting in ignorance and is making his future very dark. Of all kinds

of animal killing, the killing of cows is most vicious because the

cow gives us all kinds of pleasure by supplying milk. Cow slaughter

is an act of the grossest type of ignorance. In the Vedic literature

(Rig Veda 9.4.64) the words gobhih prinita-matsaram indicate that one

who, being fully satisfied by milk, is desirous of killing the cow is

in the grossest ignorance . . .

SB12.3.36P—In India, the cow is considered sacred not because Indian

people are primitive worshipers of mythological totems but because

Hindus intelligently understand that the cow is a mother. As

children, nearly all of us were nourished with cow's milk, and

therefore the cow is one of our mothers. Certainly one's mother is

sacred, and therefore we should not kill the sacred cow.

Journey of Self-Discovery 6 —Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is our

proposal: "Why should you kill the cow? Let the cow be protected."

You can take the cow's milk and use this milk for making so many

nutritious, delicious preparations. Aside from that, as far as meat-

eating is concerned, every cow will die—so you just wait a while, and

there will be so many dead cows. Then you can take all the dead cows

and eat. So how is this a bad proposal? If you say, "You are

restraining us from meat-eating"— no, we don't restrain you. We simply

ask you, "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you can eat it."

ysotsotsok,

Bhaktajan

[theist]

I found this quote especially poignant to the discussion, especially the enboldened sentences.

 

 

SB 1.17.3P—It is the duty of every householder to have cows and bulls

as household paraphernalia, not only for drinking milk, but also for

deriving religious principles. The follower of Vedic principles

worships cows on religious principles and respects brahmanas. The

cow's milk is required for the sacrificial fire, and by performing

sacrifices the householder can be happy. The cow's calf not only is

beautiful to look at, but also gives satisfaction to the cow, and so

she delivers as much milk as possible. But in the Kali-yuga, the

calves are separated from the cows as early as possible for purposes

which may not be mentioned in these pages of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The

cow stands with tears in her eyes, the sudra milkman draws milk from

the cow artificially, and when there is no milk the cow is sent to be

slaughtered. These greatly sinful acts are responsible for all the

troubles in present society. People do not know what they are doing

in the name of economic development. The influence of Kali will keep

them in the darkness of ignorance. Despite all endeavors for peace

and prosperity, they must try to see the cows and the bulls happy in

all respects. Foolish people do not know how one earns happiness by

making the cows and bulls happy, but it is a fact by the law of

nature. Let us take it from the authority of Srimad-Bhagavatam and

adopt the principles for the total happiness of humanity.

 

 

So it is up to each individual to search their conscience and do the right thing or at the very least not to do the wrong thing.

[Kulapavana]

It is much easier to talk about cow protection then to actually implement such a program in a practical way.

 

Running a go-shala for a few fortunate cows and bulls is nice but does not address the real issue of using cows properly in maintaining a healthy society.

 

If someone choses to abstain from commercial milk to avoid becoming implicated in ugra-karma then it is very commendable.

 

Those who oppose such an approach should provide practical alternatives that can be studied and implemented locally. Danavir Maharaja does not run such a program. He is just another Iskcon theoretician. After 40 years of preaching the gospel of "simple living and high thinking" Iskcon has precious little to show how it is actually done in real life.