Basic Teachings - Too Difficult?

[HerServant]

Dear friends

 

Love of God is within each and every one of us. What we seek is pure love of God. Person(al) love of God.

 

Perfect love of God is our calling. We should always remind ourselves to consider ourselves children of God. The smaller the child the better. Small children are often forgetful of what is expected of them. Do parents love them less because they repeat the same mistakes? The smallest children are most favored. When they do something wrong, they don't run and hide like older children. Rather, they cry and run into the arms of the mother of father.

 

We talk of Krsna, chanting our rounds, keeping the 4 regs, but what of love? How do we speak of love?

 

We are called to surrender. Surrender what? Our senses? Our thoughts? Our waking? Our dreaming? Our sleep?

 

We cannot comprehend. I tell you all as witness of the Savior Himself, I struggled and continue to struggle to love, but I know His Love is real.

 

Love can be found in the person of God and His associates and nowhere else. So we must meditate on His Divine Lila. We must meditate on those saints who love Him.

 

If we cannot understand or experience love directly, we can be witness to the loving exchange between God and His perfect devotee.

 

Between Jesus and Krsna, Father and Son, between Krsna and Radha, between Mary the Mother of Jesus and her rapt ecstatic love of the Christ child she carries insider her.

 

We can see and we can feel.

 

And this feeling gift is the gift of God Himself! By His Grace we can send it up to Him with sincerity of heart. By His grace we can send His very love to Him.

 

We can understand that this gift of Love is in fact, the exchange between Father and Perfect Son ... Paramatma Himself.

 

When we look in our hearts by directing our meditation to the heart, we feel His love and His love ascends into our waking, it purifies our dreaming.

 

Yes, we then long for only Him in every aspect of our existence (consciousness). From our heart we send up what He has given.

 

But it is only His inconceivable Mercy that our Hearts Love, He Himself wells up and envelopes our mind and thereby places us at the feet of His Personal form.

 

There love becomes a weapon that stills the mind and obliterates doubt. We know that He is God, the One Who Is, the Lord of Lords, Savior of this world and all the worlds of the Entire Cosmic Manifestation.

 

He is a real living Person, having been with us all along, and we can finally see that our real identity is revealed by the rasa exchange between Him.

 

Yes. Receive Him. Tell Him you love Him. Surrender!

 

Peace and love,

HerServant and yours.

[Kulapavana]

 

OK you are attracted to God. Most of us are attracted to His modes of material nature or freedom from suffering.

 

it is like a two-bit horse thief who is attracted to ride with Jessie James. I want to ride with God, to be a part of His "gang". I dont care if it involves some suffering. Seems well worth the priviledge. Besides, I suffer now too and it does not bother me too much. There is no love there now, and there may never be. Just a simple attraction to be a part of something extraordinary. I suspect this is shanta rasa.

[Guruvani]

 

I suspect this is shanta rasa.

 

Every aspiring devotee of Krishna must start with santa-rasa.

You can't get a college degree unless you have a primary education.

Those who are not willing to accept that they start out in shanta-rasa and make progress based upon contact and connection with those bhaktas of the higher rasas are just not conversant with Gaudiya theology.

 

They want to jump to the highest platform from the lowest platform without going through the steps on the ladder of bhakti.

[Kulapavana]

 

They want to jump to the highest platform from the lowest platform without going through the steps on the ladder of bhakti.

 

I always liked what Sridhara Maharaja said about advancing to a higher level. That we need to wait untill Krsna elevates us, without trying to go to this higher level on our own. I cant find this quote now, but it struck me as being so right and so deep.

[skp]

 

I am not sure about that. Learning to respect and obey God's law is a quite advanced phase of self-interest - not basic, in other words. And there is a huge gap between respect for God's law and loving God.

 

Very well said...

 

 

Besides, I am not sure that love is something you can persuade yourself to learn. It is a matter of true attraction, not a business proposition ("it is in my interest to love you")

 

Yes, love for Krishna is something which is inherent nature of all, and which can be realised by engaging in hearing about Krishna with pure mind (Shravanaadi Shuddha Chitte Koraye Udaya)...!

[Inedible]

The self-sabotage I refer to takes two forms: knowing that I should do something but not doing it, and knowing that I should avoid doing something yet doing it anyway. These both are symptoms or side effects, rather than the main problem. Something needs to be done to fix the main cause instead of just running after the symptoms. Personally I don't believe it is difficult to love God or to obey God's laws under the very specific circumstance that you really know God instead of simply having been told a lot of things about God. Never mind knowing God directly ... I almost always feel that I don't even know myself. Getting back to the main problem. God has given me free will, but its expression has been twisted. I frequently do things I know I shouldn't do and rarely do the things I know I should even when I actually really want to do them. It feels like the circumstances of my life's situation have more power to drive my actions than I do.

[cbrahma]

There is no credential. No ladder to success. No way of qualifying for God's love. If there were, it wouldn't be love. It would be domination.

Unfortunately religionists don't see the difference.

[theist]

 

The self-sabotage I refer to takes two forms: knowing that I should do something but not doing it, and knowing that I should avoid doing something yet doing it anyway. These both are symptoms or side effects, rather than the main problem. Something needs to be done to fix the main cause instead of just running after the symptoms. Personally I don't believe it is difficult to love God or to obey God's laws under the very specific circumstance that you really know God instead of simply having been told a lot of things about God. Never mind knowing God directly ... I almost always feel that I don't even know myself. Getting back to the main problem. God has given me free will, but its expression has been twisted. I frequently do things I know I shouldn't do and rarely do the things I know I should even when I actually really want to do them. It feels like the circumstances of my life's situation have more power to drive my actions than I do.

Inedible,

 

Arjuna asked Krsna about this very thing in the Bhagavad-gita. Your observation is very valid.

 

Bg. 3.33 - Even a man of knowledge acts according to his own nature, for everyone follows the nature he has acquired from the three modes. What can repression accomplish?

Bg. 3.34 - There are principles to regulate attachment and aversion pertaining to the senses and their objects. One should not come under the control of such attachment and aversion, because they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization.

Bg. 3.35 - It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

Bg. 3.36 - Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrishni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force?

Bg. 3.37 - The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material mode of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring sinful enemy of this world.

Bg. 3.38 - As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly covered by different degrees of this lust.

Bg. 3.39 - Thus the wise living entity's pure consciousness becomes covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire.

Bg. 3.40 - The senses, the mind and the intelligence are the sitting places of this lust. Through them lust covers the real knowledge of the living entity and bewilders him.

Bg. 3.41 - Therefore, O Arjuna, best of the Bharatas, in the very beginning curb this great symbol of sin [lust] by regulating the senses, and slay this destroyer of knowledge and self-realization.

Bg. 3.42 - The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he [the soul] is even higher than the intelligence.

Bg. 3.43 - Thus knowing oneself to be transcendental to the material senses, mind and intelligence, O mighty-armed Arjuna, one should steady the mind by deliberate spiritual intelligence [Krishna consciousness] and thus-by spiritual strength-conquer this insatiable enemy known as lust.

[theist]

As I understand santa-rasa it is a state beyond the three modes of nature. I believe sattva-guna often gets mistaken by us for santa rasa. I have looked upon santa-rasa as an established state of purified goodness and not goodness mixed with rajas and tamas. Am I wrong?

[Kulapavana]

 

As I understand santa-rasa it is a state beyond the three modes of nature. I believe sattva-guna often gets mistaken by us for santa rasa. I have looked upon santa-rasa as an established state of purified goodness and not goodness mixed with rajas and tamas. Am I wrong?

 

santa rasa is a particular relationship with God, one of the several possible natural positions for a living entity. pure santa rasa is experienced only beyond the three modes of material nature.

[theist]

 

santa rasa is a particular relationship with God, one of the several possible natural positions for a living entity. pure santa rasa is experienced only beyond the three modes of material nature.

 

Yes that is what I thought also. So what I am saying that what is mixed in is bhukti mukti. Either as knowledge or desire for heaven or improving karma or becoming liberated from it altogether.

 

I feel very much the same as you I think. I am actually seeking mukti by shooting towards the platform of santa rasa. I see it as a safe place where once reached I'll be free from bhukti mukti and may be drawn to something more intimate...or not. But I just can't handle anymore of this birth and death ***p. It's just too much.

[Beggar]

Taken from: Chapter 17: Lord Caitanya, the Original Personality of Godhead

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord.

There is a very nice song sung by Śrī Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, a great devotee and ācārya in the disciplic succession from Lord Caitanya. Narottama dāsa sings: "When will there be transcendental vibrations all over my body simply by my hearing the name of Gaurāńga? When will tears incessantly flow from my eyes simply by my uttering the names of the Lord? When will Lord Nityānanda have mercy upon me, and when will all my desires for material enjoyment become insignificant? When shall I be purified by giving up all contaminations of material enjoyment? And when shall I be able to see the transcendental abode, Vṛndāvana? When shall I be eager to accept the six Gosvāmīs as my prime guidance? And when will I be able to understand the conjugal love of Kṛṣṇa?" No one should be eager to understand the conjugal love of Kṛṣṇa without undergoing disciplinary training under the six Gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana.

[Kulapavana]

 

But I just can't handle anymore of this birth and death ***p. It's just too much.

 

I think that the experiences of birth and death here in this world - the lost loves, the meetings and separations of those we love and cherish - to a large extent makes us who we are in the spiritual world as well. Without such experiences we would be nothing. We would have nothing real to offer God. I firmly believe that we all fell from Brahman and that without experiencing this world first we could not enter Vaikuntha.

[Beggar]

 

I think that the experiences of birth and death here in this world - the lost loves, the meetings and separations of those we love and cherish - to a large extent makes us who we are in the spiritual world as well. Without such experiences we would be nothing. We would have nothing real to offer God. I firmly believe that we all fell from Brahman and that without experiencing this world first we could not enter Vaikuntha.

 

How does your idea take into consideration the situation of those jivas who upon becoming activated in undifferentiated brahman, choose the option of eternal service to Bhagavan Sri Krsna? It seems that those of us who choose "to reign in hell, rather than serve in heaven" have many lessons to learn here. But what about those who are not intrinsically twisted?

[HerServant]

 

santa rasa is a particular relationship with God, one of the several possible natural positions for a living entity. pure santa rasa is experienced only beyond the three modes of material nature.

 

Santa rasa I would say is experience of the Presence of God without an experience of a relationship of the others (friend, master, etc.).

 

This santa rasa is experience of Holiness or Energy of God. This can occur here in this place.

 

Pure santa rasa is a personal experience of God directly in the spiritual sky, but God does not reveal Himself in form of (Master, Friend, Lover, etc.).

 

God in this case takes a "form of purpose" . For example, what is the relationship between Narshimadeva and Prahlada .. what is the relationship between Moses and "Burning bush"

 

What is relationship between the person and Ananta Sesha Naga?

 

What is the relationship between God in the form of Dove and the person?

 

In these Forms of God, God is doing something for you.

 

You do not have relationship with Him as a Person, yet your experience of Him is still personal.

[Kulapavana]

 

How does your idea take into consideration the situation of those jivas who upon becoming activated in undifferentiated brahman, choose the option of eternal service to Bhagavan Sri Krsna? It seems that those of us who choose "to reign in hell, rather than serve in heaven" have many lessons to learn here. But what about those who are not intrinsically twisted?

 

Perhaps there is also a learning curve for those who wisely chose the right bank. Some way for them to aquire "flavor" on the other side of Viraja without ever coming here.

 

I was primarily objecting to the idea that going through samsara is just a waste of time for us.

[theist]

 

I think that the experiences of birth and death here in this world - the lost loves, the meetings and separations of those we love and cherish - to a large extent makes us who we are in the spiritual world as well. Without such experiences we would be nothing. We would have nothing real to offer God. I firmly believe that we all fell from Brahman and that without experiencing this world first we could not enter Vaikuntha.

 

I have to disagree with this idea. It is saying that Vaikuntha in itself is incomplete and dependent on the material world for completion.

[cbrahma]

I don't understand where Kulapavana has learned his siddhanta.

The idea that material life 'makes us who we are' totally contradicts the philosophy of 'aham brahmasmi' - I am spirit.

The body is an illusory convering and the process of self realization is to throw off this consciousness and rediscover 'who we are' - sat cit anananda vigraha

 

Your first, the first installment will be that your heart will be cleansed of all material contamination. Then you’ll be situated on the brahma-bhutah stage. Oh, prasannatma! Oh, joyfulness! Without being joyful, you cannot understand what is God. If your mind is disturbed always, you cannot meditate, neither you can understand what is God, what you are. It is impossible - AC Bhaktivedana Swami Prabhpada (his lecture at Harvard)

 

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't understand where Kulapavana has learned his siddhanta.

The idea that material life 'makes us who we are' totally contradicts the philosophy of 'aham brahmasmi' - I am spirit.

The body is an illusory convering and the process of self realization is to throw off this consciousness and rediscover 'who we are' - sat cit anananda vigraha

 

Are you saying that our true consciousness does not change with our experiences in this material world? If we - spirit souls - are all unique and different, precisely WHAT about us is unique and different, and where does that special flavor comes from? You dont feel your consciousness changes and evolves with time?

 

If you cant separate between the spiritual and the material side of your personality then you are still very much on the bodily platform. If you can tell these things apart you will also notice the changes taking place in that spiritual side, and you will see that it is the experiences in this world that help to shape your self.

 

Yes, I am spirit. It is not that life in this material world makes me spiritual. But that is only a category. Just like human body is a category - but it does not describe me in particular, or describe me enough.

 

From undifferentiated and simple spark of consciousness gradually develops a being who has a particular taste (unique desires) and flavor (unique personality). Do you think all cowherd boys are the same? Do you think all the cows in Goloka are the same? We can say that these differences are simply random and inherent, but there is no such thing as random when it comes to spirit. Everything has a cause and a reason for being the way it is. Just like material bodies are not randomly assigned by birth - who we are in the spiritual sense is not random as well.

[Guruvani]

 

I have to disagree with this idea. It is saying that Vaikuntha in itself is incomplete and dependent on the material world for completion.

No, that is not what it means.

Like Bhaktivinode explains in Jaiva Dharma the jiva soul is incomplete and lacking in sandhini and hladini shakti.

 

The soul is not dependent on the material world for completion but rather on the ambassadors of Vaikuntha who come to the material world and give knowledge and devotion through their association and instructions.

[cbrahma]

 

Yes, I am spirit. It is not that life in this material world makes me spiritual. But that is only a category..

No it's not only a category. It is a reality. It is the reality that yields the very definition of spiritual life. Everything else is secondary.

[skp]

 

I think that the experiences of birth and death here in this world - the lost loves, the meetings and separations of those we love and cherish - to a large extent makes us who we are in the spiritual world as well. Without such experiences we would be nothing. We would have nothing real to offer God. I firmly believe that we all fell from Brahman and that without experiencing this world first we could not enter Vaikuntha.

 

Kulapavana ji, your theory that what we experience in material world makes us what we are in the spiritual world cannot be correct. The simple reason being that reality is not based on illusion.

 

Shadow exists because there is a real form somewhere, similarly illusion exists because there is reality somewhere.. Illusion requires reality for existence and it is not the other way round :-)

[Kulapavana]

 

Kulapavana ji, your theory that what we experience in material world makes us what we are in the spiritual world cannot be correct. The simple reason being that reality is not based on illusion.

 

 

the reality is that we are here in the material world, and that we are learning from what we experience here.

 

the idea that this material world is just an illusion is not part of our siddhanta. neither are all our experiences here merely an illusion. some are - some are not.

 

why did you turn to Prabhupada for guidance for example? because of your experiences in this world. tell me that your life experiences had nothing to do with that.

 

why did you turn to Krsna? what made you who you are today? what made you into a person who will one day enter Goloka? think about it.

[theist]

 

No, that is not what it means.

Like Bhaktivinode explains in Jaiva Dharma the jiva soul is incomplete and lacking in sandhini and hladini shakti.

 

The soul is not dependent on the material world for completion but rather on the ambassadors of Vaikuntha who come to the material world and give knowledge and devotion through their association and instructions.

 

This is the statement that I most object to and it is not ambiguous in the least.

 

 

Kulapavana: I firmly believe that we all fell from Brahman and that without experiencing this world first we could not enter Vaikuntha.

 

I just don't buy it.

[Kulapavana]

 

This is the statement that I most object to and it is not ambiguous in the least.

 

Quote:

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I just don't buy it.

 

If we think that in the Viraja those who choose the material bank are called nitya baddha and those who chose the Vaikuntha bank are called nitya siddha, then my statement applies to the nitya-baddha jivas only. For them this material experience is essential.