Basic Teachings - Too Difficult?

[theist]

 

If we think that in the Viraja those who choose the material bank are called nitya baddha and those who chose the Vaikuntha bank are called nitya siddha, then my statement applies to the nitya-baddha jivas only. For them this material experience is essential.

Even accepting your premise for sake of argument that does not justify your statement that it is essential they come here because they can't go to the Vaikuntha without coming to the material world first.

 

It just means that is what they choose to do. They could have went straight to Vaikuntha so coming to this side was non-essential.

[Kulapavana]

 

Even accepting your premise for sake of argument that does not justify your statement that it is essential they come here because they can't go to the Vaikuntha without coming to the material world first.

 

It just means that is what they choose to do. They could have went straight to Vaikuntha so coming to this side was non-essential.

 

yes, it starts with a simple (?) choice. but at that point of choice our consciousnes and personality can only be described as very basic and rudimentary. life in the material world transforms and develops us into who we are when we enter Vaikuntha - that is a logical fact. How essential is that? I think it is very essential, altough I am sure that development continues on the other side as well.

[theist]

 

yes, it starts with a simple (?) choice. but at that point of choice our consciousnes and personality can only be described as very basic and rudimentary. life in the material world transforms and develops us into who we are when we enter Vaikuntha - that is a logical fact. How essential is that? I think it is very essential, altough I am sure that development continues on the other side as well.

That is not how I understand the word essential.

 

1: of, relating to, or constituting essence : inherent

 

Your position does not consist of evidence in that matter is not spirit.

 

 

2 a: of the utmost importance : basic, indispensable, necessary <an>essential requirement for admission to college>

 

It is not an indispensable requirement to enter the material world before entering Vaikuntha. Therefore it is NOT essential.

b: being a substance that is not synthesized by the body in a quantity sufficient for normal health and growth and that must be obtained from the diet <dietary protein="" provides="" the="" body="" with="">essential amino acids> — compare nonessential 23: idiopathic <essential disease> <essential hypertension>

 

Points made. No desire to debate the meaning of the word beyond what the dictionary gives.</dietary></an>

[gHari]

The theory has some colour: perhaps in our very last material life we will behave like a perfect servant or friend or father or lover. Krsna is satisfied with that evolutional personality and accepts it into the Kingdom. Or when we get close, we have to take birth on the planet in the universe where Krsna is actually displaying His Nitya-lila pastimes, and we assume a position there of queen or child of His queen or a servant in His court or as His cowherd friend before finally moving on to Goloka in our perfected rasa. It does have some poetry, as though maya, the travelling through billions of existences up and down the food chain somehow is a gigantic random personality generator.

 

But is that as it is?

 

Or perhaps each jiva exists because they are a unique expression of love of God? Love becomes a rainbow of attractions to each of the various unlimited qualities of Sri Krsna to greater and lesser degrees, producing unlimited personalities and lovers, mellows that are generally classified by scholars in five primary rasa groupings. Therefore Krsna's infinite unknowable nature would give rise to unlimited loving entities glorifying Him in every way - although that is not possible; yet maybe it is possible, inconceivably in eternity with infinite associates (we can only hope). Bound to the gunas, we all more or less look the same because our personalities are covered, forgotten to varying degrees. As the mist fogging our real nature is burned away by the soul's innate loving warmth we gradually resume our true role in the dance, and find ourselves everlasting in the sunshine of the eternal pastimes of Vaikuntha, the Kingdom of God.

[HerServant]

 

 

Or perhaps each jiva exists because they are a unique expression of love of God? Love becomes a rainbow of attractions to each of the various unlimited qualities of Sri Krsna to greater and lesser degrees, producing unlimited personalities and lovers, mellows that are generally classified by scholars in five primary rasa groupings. Therefore Krsna's infinite unknowable nature would give rise to unlimited loving entities glorifying Him in every way - although that is not possible; yet maybe it is possible, inconceivably in eternity with infinite associates (we can only hope). Bound to the gunas, we all more or less look the same because our personalities are covered, forgotten to varying degrees. As the mist fogging our real nature is burned away by the soul's innate loving warmth we gradually resume our true role in the dance, and find ourselves everlasting in the sunshine of the eternal pastimes of Vaikuntha, the Kingdom of God.

 

Very sweet and consistent with western Guru Sadhu Sastric traditions.

 

Thanks gHari Maharaja!

 

" Leaving to great and lofty minds the beautiful books which I cannot understand, still less put in practice, I rejoice in my littleness because "only little children and those like them shall be admitted to the Heavenly Banquet". Fortunately, there are many mansions in My Father's house; if there were only those seemingly incomprehensible mansions with their baffling approaches, I should certainly never enter there..." - St. Teresa of Lisieux

[cbrahma]

 

Very sweet and consistent with western Guru Sadhu Sastric traditions.

 

Thanks gHari Maharaja!

 

" Leaving to great and lofty minds the beautiful books which I cannot understand, still less put in practice, I rejoice in my littleness because "only little children and those like them shall be admitted to the Heavenly Banquet". Fortunately, there are many mansions in My Father's house; if there were only those seemingly incomprehensible mansions with their baffling approaches, I should certainly never enter there..." - St. Teresa of Lisieux

Never thought I'd see my favorite Catholic Saint on a forum about Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

She had direct communications with God which revealed theological insights that the great scholars were struggling to understand.

She also said 'la grace c'est tout'.

Everything is grace.

[HerServant]

 

Never thought I'd see my favorite Catholic Saint on a forum about Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

She had direct communications with God which revealed theological insights that the great scholars were struggling to understand.

She also said 'la grace c'est tout'.

Everything is grace.

 

By His Grace and Mercy. St. Teresa the Little Flower is amazing! I am glad you have affection for her. Once when I met the devotees who assisted Prabhupada with the installation of the dieties in the Berkely temple, I asked them some questions about Jesus. It was then one very senior devotee, a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada, told me the "Jesus is teaching the highest Vaisnava principle while being crucified. He is showing ecstatic union in separation" on the cross when He says "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me". It was the first time I heard the saying "ecstatic union in separation"

 

I didn't understand it at the time, but St. Teresal the Little Flower revealed its meaning. As she became more ill and closer to death, she would cough up blood. The sisters could see that this was "agonizing", but St. Teresa was not agonizing over her physical condition! She agonized that her Spouse would not yet receive her! Every moment, every breath, every cough, she hoped would be the one that "fully united her with her Beloved!"

 

HerServant and yours.

[theist]

St. Teresa of the little way? Is that what she is known by? I love her approach.

[theist]

Oh Little Flower. You answered at the same time as I was asking. Synchronicity.

[HerServant]

 

St. Teresa of the little way? Is that what she is known by? I love her approach.

 

Yes. As do I. She helps me toward heaven by "bringing me down to earth"

 

She says in the same letter (of the one I quoted above):

 

".. when I read books in which perfection is put before us with the goal obstructed by a thousand obstacles, my poor little head is quickly head is quickly fatigued. I close the learned treatise which tires my brain and dries up my heart, and I turn to the Sacred Scriptures. Then all becomes clear -- a single word opens out infinite vistas, perfection appears easy, and I see it is enough to acknowledge one's nothingness and surrender oneself like a child to God's affectionate arms." -- St. Teresa of Lisieux

 

When I read the above, it reminded me about the time that Sri Chaitanya was asked to expound upon the scriptures, but rather than expound, answered something to the effect " there is no need, the scriptures themselves tell the meaning"

[theist]

Yes and the time when Prakasananda (and the other mayavadis) at Benares wanted to know why as a sannyasi Mahaprabhu spent his time chanting and dancing in ecstasy instead of studying Vedanta Mahaprabhu replied that His spiritual master had told Him He was a fool and should always just chant the Holy Names of Krsna.

 

It won't help us to think of ourselves as big philosophers before the Lord. Best to be like the Little Flower for real then to pretend we are a fancy garland.

[mahak]

havent read yet, but my gut response to the title of this thread is, yeah, its hard. Its hard to first get on the knees, then bend over and place head on the ground, and then say a prayer of gratitude, recognition, and love to the supreme lord who has never left our sides for a moment.

 

But complicated? My guru maharaja says, "even a dog can take part." So why cant I.

 

mahak

[cbrahma]

 

Are you saying that our true consciousness does not change with our experiences in this material world? .

Self realization is just that - coming to a realization of who we really are.

Our ORIGINAL consciousness has no material concomitants.

The 'changes' are illusory, they are of the mind and body.

To insist on that is to betray a commitment to Maya.

[Svarupa]

 

The idea that material life 'makes us who we are' totally contradicts the philosophy of 'aham brahmasmi' - I am spirit.

The body is an illusory convering and the process of self realization is to throw off this consciousness and rediscover 'who we are' - sat cit anananda vigraha

[Inedible]

It used to be traditional in Hinduism (or so I have been told) to get an education, get a job, marry, have children, and then retire from the world to take up Yoga. It didn't make sense to me because it is possible to get run over by a bus any day and retirement to do Yoga may never come. Now I have some respect for this route, because in so many ways becoming entrenched in this world and acting out roles without getting caught up in them is far more difficult than going monastic early in life. It is possible that going directly into the monastery is like going from living off of one kind of parent to living off another kind of parent without ever learning to be an independently functioning adult in the world.

[Guruvani]

so, the idea is that Krishna creates the material just as a place for renegade jivas to come and enjoy their senses without any reformation or evolution in consciousness?

 

If there is no evolution of the soul then how is it that the jiva evolves from lower species of life to higher species?

Is that just a material thing, or is the consciousness of the jiva evolving, expanding and growing?

 

The material world is just a place with no higher purpose than lettings jivas run wild and do anything they want?

 

No plan for growth, improvement and advancement of consciousness?

[theist]

 

Is that just a material thing, or is the consciousness of the jiva evolving, expanding and growing?

 

The consciousness evolves, expands, de-evolves and contracts. It is all material however because it is all taken place within the confines of the three modes of nature.

 

Just like in a dream we can consciously go from being a demon, to a saint, to a god and back again. It is not that our consciousness is changing. What is changing is what we are conscious of. And the mis-identification with that which we seem to be but are not is the action of ahankara which is the missing link in this conversation.

[sevabhakta]

While present in Maha Maya's realm, each individual Jiva can make spiritual advancement. There is no loss or dimunition of such advancement, although the Jiva remains in Maha Maya's realm. This is because Yoga Maya also functions simultaneously, side by side with the activity of the material gunas.

 

So if "I" am making spiritual advancement by engaging in some preliminary devotional service, and slightly elevating my life which is mostly spent in the gunas, who is the "I" who is the recipient of that change?

 

 

BG 2.40 Translation : In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.

 

PURPORT

Activity in Krsna consciousness, or acting for the benefit of Krsna without expectation of sense gratification, is the highest transcendental quality of work. Even a small beginning of such activity finds no impediment, nor can that small beginning be lost at any stage. Any work begun on the material plane has to be completed, otherwise the whole attempt becomes a failure. But any work begun in Krsna consciousness has a permanent effect, even though not finished. The performer of such work is therefore not at a loss even if his work in Krsna consciousness is incomplete. One percent done in Krsna consciousness bears permanent results, so that the next beginning is from the point of two percent; whereas, in material activity, without a hundred percent success, there is no profit. Ajamila performed his duty in some percentage of Krsna consciousness, but the result he enjoyed at the end was a hundred percent, by the grace of the Lord. There is a nice verse in this connection in Srimad-Bhagavatam:

tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer

bhajan na pakko 'tha patet tato yadi

yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim

ko vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah

"If someone gives up self-gratificatory pursuits and works in Krsna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And, what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?" (Bhag. 1.5.17) Or, as the Christians say, "What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?"

Material activities and their results end with the body. But work in Krsna consciousness carries the person again to Krsna consciousness, even after the loss of the body. At least one is sure to have a chance in the next life of being born again as a human being, either in the family of a great cultured brahmana or in a rich aristocratic family that will give one a further chance for elevation. That is the unique quality of work done in Krsna consciousness.

 

So to answer Kulapavana's question, our material consciousness does change with our experiences in the material world, and the assault of the material gunas, which cover our true conscious nature as spirit soul, provides the impetus for us to renounce in favor of transcendental devotional engagements, and by those engagements, our true consciousness is at first only gradually revealed.

 

That is the first change of consciousness, that the gunas elevate to goodness enough that we can use that sattva as a springboard to get glimpses of our true spiritual consciousness. But that is not exactly a change of that spiritual consciouness, just a recognition.

 

 

SB 3.25.1 Purport.

 

The word atma-prajnaptaye indicates that the Lord descends for the benefit of the human race to give transcendental knowledge. Material necessities are quite sufficiently provided for in the Vedic knowledge, which offers a program for good living conditions and gradual elevation to the platform of goodness. In the mode of goodness one’s knowledge expands. On the platform of passion there is no knowledge, for passion is simply an impetus to enjoy material benefits. On the platform of ignorance there is no knowledge and no enjoyment, but simply life almost like that of animals.

The Vedas are meant to elevate one from the mode of ignorance to the platform of goodness. When one is situated in the mode of goodness he is able to understand knowledge of the self, or transcendental knowledge.

 

Next as we live from that real identity more and more, that spiritual consciousness may change while in the material realm or the spiritual realm, change at that point meaning the evolution of our spiritual consciousness is the ever-fresh and eternally changing awareness of who Krnsa is to us as we move through the rasas.

[theist]

 

While present in Maha Maya's realm, each individual Jiva can make spiritual advancement. There is no loss or dimunition of such advancement, although the Jiva remains in Maha Maya's realm. This is because Yoga Maya also functions simultaneously, side by side with the activity of the material gunas.

 

Sevabhakta here brings out another dimension...the advent of the Lord's grace to the jiva. The return journey of the prodigal son.