Lord of the Flies

[Alex J]

 

Compared to the 'crimes' committed by other religious organizations, isn't it true that iskcon is somewhat better? I mean, you normally hear thousands of cases of, say molestation and other serious charges, reg. catholic priests, muslim clerics etc. but not so with respect to iskcon. So in comparision, it seems ok.

 

tackleberry Prabhu, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think that the history of the ISKCON organization is worth carefully considering, and learning from.

 

For example, I found the following to be fairly intense and unpleasant reading, but I'm glad that I took the time to read it all:

 

Report on the Bhaktivedanta Gurukula Village

 

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[bhaktajan]

Dear Prabhujis, I have made some excerpts

 

Report on the Bhaktivedanta Gurukula Village:

BY: SUN STAFF

Jan 3, MAYAPUR, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">INDIA</st1:country-region> (SUN) — An extremely disturbing CPO report on the Mayapur gurukula and Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja.

On February 11, 1999, and February 19, 1999, I met with Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja (BVPM) at his gurukula, which is referred to in this report as the Bhaktivedanta Gurukula Village (BGV). During these meetings we discussed several issues pertaining to the gurukula, including its past and present in relation to child protection.

The Past

On July 11, 1991, an investigative report on child abuse incidents at Bhaktivedanta Gurukula Village (BGV) was issued by Tosan Krsna Prabhu, Adikarta Prabhu, Bhaktarupa Prabhu, and Dayarama Prabhu.

On October 7, 1991, Sri Ram wrote to Jayapataka Maharaja, concerning the child protection situation in Mayapur: “We are concerned that there is currently a somewhat lax approach that allows serious offenders to remain undisciplined and their threat to the Society largely unknown.” . . .

The Present

BVPM explained that, since July, 1991, a major preventative measure that was implemented in the school to prevent further episodes of sexual abuse and experimentation by the students is increased screening for the students. Specifically, the school now accepts only boys who are brahminically inclined. Previously, from the time BVPM became headmaster in 1982, the BGV accepted practically all of the children who came to them. BVPM said that after the July, 1991 investigation several senior devotees advised him to reduce the number of students and to focus on that which he is most effective, namely brahminical training. . . .

 

[bhaktajan comments:

This report is from 1991—so here we all are and nothing has yet been done?;

Who is "I" the author?;

This "I author" ends this web posting with his recommendations—yet who is this person?

Where is the 1991 Report by the Iskcon Authorities? Where are their recommendations and revelations?

Would this web site purport to propagate that Iskcon Gurukulas are just a homosexual pedophile sanctuary?

Who runs this "Sun" site?

After 16 years no sober alumni has come forth to make a definitive accounting?

Where is the presence of Matajis and Parents???

Maybe the moon landing was indeed a fake.]

[Champaka]

Dear Alex,

 

Quite by chance I was reading through this forum and your post got my attention, I too was impressed in my youth by the novel Lord of the Flies. On reading down your post I found this quote: "Kind of like that novel, Lord of the Flies, where children, finding themselves suddenly free of adult supervision, play at forming their own instinctive society. With nothing to check them, all becomes one big hunting game… "

 

Samll world, I wrote that passage! In context, I was speaking not about Iskcon, but about a group of ex-Iskcon members who, believing themselves now altogether free of their faith in Gaudiya Vaisnavism, nonetheless gather on the internet to discuss… Gaudiya Vaisnavism! In those discussions, with nearly anything anti-Hare Krsna permitted, any and all leader figures in the faith are fair game - current western gurus up to Sanatana Gosvami, all indiscriminately get the snipe-like treatment. While the discussions where justly exposing the absurdities commited in Iskcon in the name of bhakti, I thought the group had a very good point. But it was a comment which grossly downplayed the intellectual capacity of Sanatana Gosvami that opened my eyes and I realized there was something wrong with their reaction. That is when I compared their line of discussion to the atmosphere in Lord of the Flies.

 

But it is interesting that you thought I was referring to Iskcon leadership. As I said, yes, I agree that Iskcon-after-Prabhupada too took to running around brandishing conch and spears intermittently.

 

But Iskcon, and those of us outsiders who still keep some reverence for the Gosvamis, and for our line of acaryas, at least this we share, that there must be some hope. An attack on a personality such as Sanatana Gosvami on the other hand, without genuine intention of good will, is simply disastrous. …unsuccessfully try to govern themselves and consequently have disastrous results…

 

But more or less we all suffer from Lord of the Flies syndrome - who among us isn’t at the brink of disposing off others out of a sheer sense of entitlement? It’s a great danger we all face, as a faith, this turning against each other, risking thus our own survival. Like in the novel, we must cooperate to keep a fire burning. Luminaries such as the Gosvamis are that fire, our only chance of rescue. Alternatively, we can keep the hunting game and become subjects of The Lord. Some other kind of lord, that is.

[Alex J]

 

 

Samll world, I wrote that passage! In context, I was speaking not about Iskcon, but about a group of ex-Iskcon members who, believing themselves now altogether free of their faith in Gaudiya Vaisnavism, nonetheless gather on the internet to discuss… Gaudiya Vaisnavism!

 

(...)

 

But it is interesting that you thought I was referring to Iskcon leadership. As I said, yes, I agree that Iskcon-after-Prabhupada too took to running around brandishing conch and spears intermittently.

 

 

Dear Champaka,

 

Thank you for your response. When I read your capsule description of the plot of the Lord of the Flies, on the "Mandangopal" blog, I appreciated the way that you used words:

 

"Kind of like that novel, Lord of the Flies, where children, finding themselves suddlenly free of adult supervision, play at forming their own instinctive society. With nothing to check them, all becomes one big hunting game… "

 

It was clear to me from what you wrote on the blog, that you were describing something different and distinct from what I had in mind. Still I connected with your words, and I thought that they also applied to the patterns that seemed to have been present within the ISKCON organization.

 

It was not my intention to make it appear we were both talking about the same thing. I can see how I could have made that clearer in my initial post.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Alex J]

 

[bhaktajan comments:

This report is from 1991—so here we all are and nothing has yet been done?;

Who is "I" the author?;

This "I author" ends this web posting with his recommendations—yet who is this person?

Where is the 1991 Report by the Iskcon Authorities? Where are their recommendations and revelations?

Would this web site purport to propagate that Iskcon Gurukulas are just a homosexual pedophile sanctuary?

Who runs this "Sun" site?

After 16 years no sober alumni has come forth to make a definitive accounting?

Where is the presence of Matajis and Parents???

Maybe the moon landing was indeed a fake.]

 

Dear Bhaktajan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your comments. I've emailed the person who I assumed had written that CPO report, and he's given me his permission to share some of his answers to your questions, on this forum. He's also made some comments on something that tackleberry Prabhu wrote. I'm including his letter at the end of this post.

 

As far as the Sampradaya Sun is concerned, my understanding is that the website is run by Rocana Prabhu and Mother Jahnava.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

----

 

Dec. 18, 2007

 

Dear Alex Prabhu, Hare Krsna.

 

Below I've made some comments:

 

"Compared to the 'crimes' committed by other religious organizations, isn't it true that iskcon is somewhat better? I mean, you normally hear thousands of cases of, say molestation and other serious charges, reg. catholic priests, muslim clerics etc. but not so with respect to iskcon. So in comparision, it seems ok."

 

With regard to relative prevalence of child maltreatment in ISKCON compared with other religious communities, readers may gain valuable insight from articles and book chapters I've written such as:

 

 

 

Wolf, D. (2004). Child Abuse and the Hare Krishnas : History and Response, pgs. 321-344, In The Hare Krishna Movement- The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant. Edited by Bryant, E. F. and Ekstrand, M. L. Columbia University Press: New York .

 

Wolf, D. (2005). Child Abandonment and Religious Organizations: A Case Study. The Journal of Religion and Abuse, 7 (3), 63-88.

 

 

 

This report is from 1991—so here we all are and nothing has yet been done?;

 

Who is "I" the author?;

 

[[[The report was written by me, Dhira Govinda dasa, in April, 1999. In that report I refer to another report from 1991, conducted by others. I wouldn't regard the phrase "nothing has yet been done" as accurate. Much has been done, much has been undone. Actually, I'd say that from 1998-2004 there were substantial productive changes in ISKCON Mayapur with regards to child protection. Since 2004, I'm not sure what's been happening. Also, after the 1991 report there were some apparently positive steps taken, and then, as far as my investigation could tell, there was some backsliding. The history is fascinating, also frustrating, and contains complexities.]]]

 

This "I author" ends this web posting with his recommendations—yet who is this person?

Where is the 1991 Report by the Iskcon Authorities? Where are their recommendations and revelations?

 

[[[The 1991 report exists. When I examined and referenced it, it was printed from a typewriter. Many of the files from the 70s, 80s and early 90s, especially from India, were handwritten or typewriter written, with no electronic copies. So, the ISKCON Child Protection Office should have copies of the complete 1991 report. It is available from other sources too.]]]

 

After 16 years no sober alumni has come forth to make a definitive accounting?

 

[[[Alumni have come forward and described their experiences. The question above seems to me, based on my many years of experience with investigations and adjudications in child maltreatment matters, with the State of Florida and with ISKCON, to be founded on simplistic assumptions.]]]

 

Where is the presence of Matajis and Parents???

 

[[[As a general rule, the less involvement of parents in a school, the greater the possibility and extent of child abuse and neglect, and this dynamic was certainly active in the school in Mayapur. Some parents were involved, some were 12,000 miles away. Again, there were varying situations. Certainly the lack of parental involvement was a major contributing factor to the child abuse that happened.

Hare Krsna. Your servant, Dhira Govinda dasa]]]

 

 

[bhaktajan]

 

I) Dec. 18, 2007<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

I've emailed the person who I assumed had written that CPO report . . . my understanding is that the website is run by Rocana Prabhu and Mother Jahnava.

Sincerely,

Alex J

…………………………………………………………………………………………………

II) Dec. 18, 2007

Dear Alex Prabhu, Hare Krsna.

Below I've made some comments:

. . . With regard to relative prevalence of child maltreatment in ISKCON compared with other religious communities, readers may gain valuable insight from articles and book chapters I've written such as:

. . . Wolf, D. (2004). Child Abuse and the Hare Krishnas: Columbia University :PPress: New York .

. . . Wolf, D. (2005). Child Abandonment and Religious Organizations: A Case Study. The Journal of Religion and Abuse, 7 (3), 63-88. . . .

Hare Krsna. Your servant, Dhira Govinda dasa

…………………………………………………………………………………………………

III) Copied from www.DivyaJnana.org:

Clarity about Initiation

An excerpt from a letter by Dhira Govinda dasa from Jan. 30th, 2005:

Balavanta Prabhu briefly addresses . . . "I am always struck by the fact that Srila Prabhupada did not give much stress or detail to the matter of how initiation was to be conducted after his physical departure. . . . As he [srila Prabhupada] used to frequently say, 'What is the difficulty?"

 

My Dear Dhira Govinda dasa,

May your service to other Vaisnavas always keep you satiated with Krsna-prema. Your words, in response to my fervent inquires, was well constructed. You must not construe my following statements as offensive, because I do not seek your defeat nor anything of the like. I speak academically at all times.

But alas, you represent the movement to re-form Iskcon. Such an endeavor is indeed inspired by noble sentiments—but it is base on false pride.

The South Bronx needs to be re-formed—Venezuela's Dictator Chavez can donate heating oil to the poor American underclass but he ain't gonna reform no capitalists into accepting his 'reform-doctrines' and change what is already a working democratic system.

A) Iskcon has never brainwashed. B) It has never held anyone against their will. C) Iskcon does not indoctrinate. D) Iskcon does not denigrate A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. E) Iskcon's managerial senior Faculty do not allow falldown to co-exist within Iskcon. Those who say that Iskcon does or had done any of the above five are confusing and conflating:

1—short-lived illegitimate organizational gang-mentality within a close-knit clique;

versus

2—Normal-responsible goal-oriented over-achievers how fell short of the prize.

Anything other than accepting a living Guru is impersonalistic.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………….

[[ Sri Isopanisad 9 Purport: . . . But the veda-vada-rata people, instead of realizing that the purpose of the Vedas is to revive the forgetful soul’s lost relationship with the Personality of Godhead, . . . Such people misguide others by misinterpreting the Vedic literature.

. . . The veda-vada-ratas give their own explanations of the Vedas, neglecting the authority of great teachers (acaryas). They also tend to raise some unscrupulous person from among themselves and present him as the leading exponent of Vedic knowledge.

Such veda-vada-ratas are especially condemned in this mantra by the very appropriate Sanskrit words vidyayam ratah. Vidyayam refers to the study of the Vedas because the Vedas are the origin of all knowledge (vidya), and ratah means “those engaged.” Vidyayam ratah thus means “those engaged in the study of the Vedas.”

The so-called students of the Vedas are condemned herein because they are ignorant of the actual purpose of the Vedas on account of their disobeying the acaryas.

Such veda-vada-ratas search out meanings in every word of the Vedas to suit their own purposes. They do not know that the Vedic literature is a collection of extraordinary books that can be understood only through the chain of disciplic succession.

One must approach a bona fide spiritual master in order to understand the transcendental message of the Vedas. That is the direction of the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12).]]

…………………………………………………………………………………………………….

ys,

bhaktajan

 

 

[Alex J]

 

The Lord of the Flies story is fiction!

Dear sanatan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your post. I understand that Lord of the Flies is fiction. One of the things that I appreciate about the story is that the fiction is allegorical. It seems to me that persons and actions in the story have meaning that also applies to situations outside of the story itself.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Alex J]

 

Anything other than accepting a living Guru is impersonalistic.

There's a quote often attributed to Mark Twain, which goes something like: "What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so". It's sometimes also quoted as: "There is something worse than ignorance, and that's knowing what ain't so." When we "know" things that just ain't so, we no longer question them.

False facts, incorrect assumptions, can become a foundation upon which we build other things.

The propaganda that we might internalize can blind us to the reality right in front of us. It may be that people's consciousness can be imprinted fairly easily. Repeat a lie frequently enough, and repeat it through official channels that appear "authoritative", and before you know it, we begin to accept lies as truth.

 

It reminds me of a clip that I watched on Youtube, from the movie Idiocracy.

 

In the movie, the main character, Joe, finds himself in a dystopian world, 500 years in the future. In this future world the local people are watering their crops with a Gatorade-like sports drink. The result is that the crops no longer grow, and instead they have dusty fields where the plants should be. The sports drink, named "Brawndo" has a slogan "It's got what plants grave! It's got electrolytes".

In the movie Joe gets named Secretary of the Interior, and in one scene he's endeavouring to convince the other cabinet members that putting the sports drink, Brawndo, on the crops, is stopping the crops from growing. The other cabinet members seem to be having difficulty looking past Brawndo's advertising slogan, which they have internalized, long enough to actually consider what Joe is saying.

The cabinet members' fundamental assumption about Brawndo is "It's got what plants grave! It's got electrolytes", and they seem to be stuck in a loop, repeating the slogan, without analyzing if the slogan is correct, and without considering where the slogan actually comes from. In reality, the plants do not crave electrolytes. In reality, the electrolytes are accumulating in the soil and preventing the plants from growing.

The slogan is basically an advertising pitch, from the corporation that sells the drink, meant to convince people to water crops with Brawndo, thus encouraging people to buy large quantities of the drink. In this future world, Brawndo has replaced water just about everywhere, except in toilets. The various Brawndo slogans are repeated so often that the people simply assume that they're true, without looking any deeper.

When I first saw the clip, it was like a light went off in my head. The scene reminds me of some discussions about guru-tattva, initiation, and "diksa", among followers of Srila Prabhupada, where certain slogans are taken for granted and repeated, over and over again, in a circular fashion, with little attention as to, for example, whether the slogans actually come from what Srila Prabhupada is teaching.

Below is a transcript of the scene:

 

Joe:

For the last time, I'm pretty sure what's killing the crops is this Brawndo stuff.

 

Cabinet member 1:

But Brawndo's got what plants crave, it's got electrolytes.

 

Cabinet member 2:

So wait a minute, what you're saying is that you want us to put water on the crops.

 

Joe:

Yes

 

Cabinet member 2:

Water? Like out the toilet?

 

Joe:

Well, I mean it doesn't have to be out of the toilet, but yeah, that's the idea.

 

Cabinet member 1:

But Brawndo's got what plants crave...

 

Cabinet member 2:

...it's got electrolytes

 

Joe:

OK, look, the plants aren't growing, so I'm pretty sure that the Brawndo's not working. Now I'm no botanist, but I do know that if you put water on plants, they grow.

 

Cabinet member 3:

Well, I've never seen no plants grow out of no toilet!

 

Cabinet member 1:

(speaking to Cabinet member 3) Hey, that's good, you sure you ain't the smartest guy in the world?

 

Cabinet member 4:

(laughing, chortling)

 

Joe:

Hey look, you wanna solve this problem, I wanna get my pardon, so why don't we just try it, okay? ...and not worry about what plants crave.

 

Cabinet member 2:

Brawndo's got what plants crave…

 

Joe:

(muttering under his breath, in frustration)

 

Cabinet member 3:

Yeah, it's got electrolytes.

 

Joe:

What are electrolytes?! Do you even know?!

 

Cabinet member 1:

Its...what...they use to make Brawndo.

 

Joe:

Yeah, but WHY do they use them to make Brawndo?!

 

Cabinet member 4:

'Cause Brawndo's got electrolytes.

 

 

To me the clip illustrates, in a funny way, how we can become conditioned to accept repeated statements as truth. I think this is important to be clear about. If something untrue is repeated a thousand times, it will still be untrue. If a thousand people repeat an untrue statement a thousand times, it will still be untrue. But when we hear a statement repeated over and over again, and if we hear it from various people, it can give that statement the illusion of truth.

I remember reading that the expression "living spiritual master" apparently only appears once in all of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. That in itself seems interesting to me. In the conversation where I've seen the expression used, it's being spoken by someone other than Srila Prabhupada. According to one source that I've read, the conversation is taking place following a lecture, from October 2^nd, 1968, in Seattle.

 

Below is an excerpt from this exchange, taken from a sub-page at Krishna.com:

 

 

Disciple:

Srila Prabhupada, is there any way for a Christian in this age—without the help of a spiritual master—to reach the spiritual sky through reading the words of Jesus Christ in the Bible and trying to follow his teachings?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

When you read the Bible, you are following the spiritual master. How can you say “without a spiritual master”? As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means you are following the spiritual master. So where is the opportunity of being without the spiritual master?

 

Disciple:

I was referring to a living spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada:

There is no question of whether the spiritual master is “living.” The spiritual master is eternal.

 

 

There are various thought-provoking statements by Srila Prabhupada, about the power and effect of spiritual sound vibration. Based on my understanding of such statements, that power and effect doesn't seem to be dependent on a "warm body". Below is an example of one such statement, which I appreciate, and find worthy of careful consideration:

 

"

Although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration, what we have heard from the spiritual master, that is living.

" (Lecture, January

13^th

, 1969, Los Angeles)

 

 

On the topic of impersonalism, my understanding is that, according to Srila Prabhupada's teachings, when the soul leaves the body, it doesn't become impersonal. For example, we have the following excerpt from the purport to Bhagavad Gita 2.12:

 

 

"

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the supreme individual person, and Arjuna, the Lord's eternal associate, and all the kings assembled there are individual, eternal persons. It is not that they did not exist as individuals in the past, and it is not that they will not remain eternal persons. Their individuality existed in the past, and their individuality will continue in the future without interruption.

"

 

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to read what I wanted to share.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

That's funny.

 

However, is there an inherent value judgement in saying that accepting anything but a living guru is impersonalistic? I suppose that would be so if somebody is conditioned to consider impersonalism to be "bad".

 

Rather, aren't we taught that impersonalism is an incomplete (and thus, ultimately unsatisfying) picture of "all that is"? It's not a simple question of right or wrong, good or bad, is it?

 

So, yes, folks can make spiritual progress without a personal Guru (after all, the Sikh's worship Granth Sahib (the book)), but, by definition, a book is not personal. A personal Guru is a person, right?

 

Without a personal guru, there is the danger of being mislead by our mind. Of course, there is that danger even *with* a personal guru if we listen to our mind and not Sri Guru.

 

 

There's a quote often attributed to Mark Twain, which goes something like: "What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so". It's sometimes also quoted as: "There is something worse than ignorance, and that's knowing what ain't so." When we "know" things that just ain't so, we no longer question them.

False facts, incorrect assumptions, can become a foundation upon which we build other things.

[Alex J]

 

 

So, yes, folks can make spiritual progress without a personal Guru (after all, the Sikh's worship Granth Sahib (the book)), but, by definition, a book is not personal. A personal Guru is a person, right?

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response. My experience and understanding, so far, during the time I've been in contact with the philosophy and practice of Krishna Consciousness, is that Srila Prabhupada is a person who wrote books, and is not himself a book. I would agree that a personal guru is a person. I would also say that Srila Prabhupada is a personal guru, and a person.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

"Who's on first?"

 

For the sake of discussion, it might be good to use the terms "personalist" and "impersonalist" to refer to the philosophy being represented, and "personal" and "impersonal" to refer to the nature of the information source.

 

Srila Prabhupada certainly teaches personalist philosophy. However, Srila Prabhupada's books (despite containing all the essentials) are an impersonal source of personalist philosophy in the sense that one cannot ask the books for clarification on a particular point, nor can the book ascertain by looking into our faces if the clarification has indeed clarified the point or simply confused us further. This is where it is awfully handy to have a personal guru.

 

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response. My experience and understanding, so far, during the time I've been in contact with the philosophy and practice of Krishna Consciousness, is that Srila Prabhupada is a person who wrote books, and is not himself a book. I would agree that a personal guru is a person. I would also say that Srila Prabhupada is a personal guru, and a person.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Alex J]

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

Thank you for the exchange. Yes, I agree that Srila Prabhupada teaches personalist philosophy. That philosophy can, for example, be read in books, and heard on recordings.

 

I would say that in addition to being a personalist, and teacher of personalist philosophy, Srila Prabhupada is a person, a person with whom a personal relationship can be nurtured. My experience and understanding, is that Srila Prabhupada can be present in a person's life, even on a daily basis. In my life, reading Srila Prabhupada's books is an important part of my relationship with Srila Prabhupada, as are things such as prayer and chanting.

I personally find statements such as the following inspiring:

 

"

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

" (CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

"

Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)

 

 

 

Devotee:

Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

Srila Prabhupada:

Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my books.

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

 

 

 

"

In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74)

 

 

 

Narayana:

So those disciples who don't have the opportunity to see you or speak with you...

Srila Prabhupada:

That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his words, vani.

Narayana:

But how do they know that they're pleasing you?

Srila Prabhupada:

If you actually follow the words of Guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how can he be pleased?

Sudama:

Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes.

(Srila Prabhupada, room conversation, 21/7/75)

 

 

 

 

"

After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long. My life is almost ended. So you have to carry on, and these books will do everything.

" (Srila Prabhupada, room conversation, 18/2/76)

 

 

 

 

"

So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)

 

 

 

 

"

So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavour. Whether I am present or not present it doesn't matter.

" (Srila Prabhupada, arrival conversation, 17/5/77, Vrindavan)

 

 

Thank you for reading my post.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

then you simply have to read again and again

 

See, there's my problem. I barely have the patience to read something *once*, let alone read it again and again.

 

In a more full quoting on another thread here, Srila Prabhupada qualifies this statement (or one like it) by saying that it's all there in the books for us if our hearts are pure.

 

My heart is far from pure. Very, very far from pure. Consequently, as the acharyas have recommended, I need the association of the sadhus in order to undergo purification.

 

Is *your* heart pure? Can you read Srila Prabhupada's books without injecting your own mental speculations?

[Alex J]

 

 

Is *your* heart pure? Can you read Srila Prabhupada's books without injecting your own mental speculations?

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

Thank you for your post.

When I read Srila Prabhupada's purports, I experience myself as being in the company of a sadhu. I can feel the gradual and profound healing that's taken place inside me, since I first started reading those purports. The more I read, the more things make sense, and the better I feel.

Below, I'd like to share a short excerpt from the Vyasa-puja homage that I wrote for Srila Prabhupada this year:

 

 

"

As I received your instructions, and gradually began to apply them in my life, I felt like I was being nursed back to health, a process that continues to this day. Coming in contact with what you teach has affected my life in a profound way. I no longer see the world in the same way. Now there are things worth working for.

"

 

 

I understand that different people have different experiences. I'm not saying that your experience is the same as mine. That said, my conscience is clear about the choice that I've made, with respect to my relationship to Srila Prabhupada. I accept that I'm responsible for the consequences of this choice, and for the consequences of all choices that I make.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I accept that I'm responsible for the consequences of this choice, and for the consequences of all choices that I make.

 

That's fair enough.

 

However, you are also responsible if you publicly mislead others.

[Alex J]

 

That's fair enough.

 

However, you are also responsible if you publicly mislead others.

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

I'm responsible for the consequences of the choices that I make, to write on this forum about my understanding of the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness, about my perceptions, and about my experiences. My conscience is clear about the things that I've shared on this forum, and about the things I've shared on other forums.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Beggar]

 

I understand that different people have different experiences. I'm not saying that your experience is the same as mine. That said, my conscience is clear about the choice that I've made, with respect to my relationship to Srila Prabhupada. I accept that I'm responsible for the consequences of this choice, and for the consequences of all choices that I make.

Sincerely,

Alex

Sometimes there's more than meets the eye. Perhaps in your last life you met Srila Prabhupada in India or if you are young enough in America and then passed away soon afterwards. Perhaps he was your guru when both of you were in different forms even a longer time ago. There is no way for us to really know these things. But for all said, the system of guru parampara will go on and if it is stopped then Krsna will re-establish it, this He has told in Bhagavad Gita. So for an individual to have a "relationship" with a great acarya entirely after they have entered nitya lila is one thing and it is another thing to promote the rtvik conception that Srila Prabhupada marks the end of the guru parampara for ten thousand years or even to modify that into "The Prominent Link". Looking back at Srila Prabhupada's preaching lila and then the last thirty years and I must say that there is something very mysterious and enigmatic. So many people are discussing and obviously arguing over what he said, wrote and did or did not do. Some have found solace associating with Srila Prabhupada's disciples who are not taking any siksa or instruction outside of ISKCON circles. And some have taken solace in associating with Srila Prabhupada's disciples who have taken advice from elderley Indian Gaudiya sannyasis. Those in the second camp eventually approach such sannyasis for Hare nama, diksa and of course siksa. I think that the real debate is over what some call, "keeping Srila Prabhupada in the center". I've met many young people in ISKCON circles that read Srila Prabhupada's books, listen to his lectures and bhajans etc. It used to be argued that the disciples both diksa and siksa of Indian, Gaudiya, sannyasi gurus would claim also keep Prabhupada in the center. This is a claim which is hardly even made in this decade except perhaps in the Narayana Maharaja group (and I'm not making a judgement, here).

 

It must be only natural to read the books of the person who most inspires you. It's what Srila Sridhar Maharaj called, "the free flow of faith" which is "a transaction of the heart". So ultimately no one can legislate or even "order" such a thing, although a real disciple will always keep a special place in their heart for their diksa guru (who is also giving siksa). So I appreciate those, who although never met Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, read his books, etc and "feel" some relationship with him in his apparent abscence from this world. At the same time I also see a "Tower of Babel Syndrome" amongst his (exclusive or so-called exclusive) followers as they argue endlessly over the importance of diksa, the origin of the soul, varasrama dharma and even other issues (with each group using the Bhaktivedanta Purports to prove their points). I see how in the other Gaudiya groups with western followers that there is a sense of peace and certainty over siddhantic issues, yet I lament at the apathy in some of these groups towards Srila Prabhupada's writings. Ultimately it is our destiny due to our level of sukrti and where Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu have determined where we shall be feed the nectarean milk of Krsna Consciousness in our kanistha infancy (which may go on for many lifetimes). We are told to associate with those who are svajatiya or like-minded. Here on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions, that svajatiya is like a large circus tent, and sometime its really asvajatiya. We may all be in this tent by our individual desire, sometime it's curious desire and sometimes we are bent (hopefully not hellbent) on influencing others. I guess the trick is to really desire to appreciate the truth, and in fact that's how Srila Sridhar Maharaj defined sincerity. It seems that if we are sincere in our approach, then somehow we will be sufficiently guided by an unseen hand.

[Alex J]

 

So for an individual to have a "relationship" with a great acarya entirely after they have entered nitya lila is one thing and it is another thing to promote the rtvik conception that Srila Prabhupada marks the end of the guru parampara for ten thousand years or even to modify that into "The Prominent Link".

Dear Beggar Prabhu,

 

I thank you for expressing your thoughts here, and for your willingness to validate aspects of my experience. I appreciate that, and I feel more understood.

I'd like to add, from my side, that the book "Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link" (PL) doesn't state that the parampara ends with Srila Prabhupada. Below, I'd like to share an excerpt from the above-mentioned book, with the intention of clarifying what I understand that the book states about the topic:

 

"

The listings of the pillars of the parampara, as listed at the start of Bhagavad-gita, may stop with Srila Prabhupada for the duration of his movement. But the parampara continues. When you explain to someone transcendental knowledge about Krsna and the soul, as learned from the Bhagavad-gita and the Vaisnavas, you are continuing the parampara. When that person absorbs the knowledge and explains it to someone else, then that person is continuing the parampara.

"

 

 

 

With respect to the expression "rtvik conception", I find value in something that I got in an email from Dhira Govinda Prabhu in December of 2004, where he writes:

 

"

It seems to me that 'ritvik', in response to PL, is usually a roadblock to effective communication and genuine understanding. It's used as a label and categorization that prevents genuine dialogue and deeper realizations of truth.

"

 

 

 

There's also an article that he wrote, and which was posted on Chakra some years ago, wherein he writes:

 

"

To attempt to cast the ideas therein as 'ritvik' or 'not ritvik' may be easy for the mind, but won't help to comprehend the concepts in the essay.

"

 

 

 

It's helpful for me to remain aware that I, and we, may at times be thinking and speaking about experience in terms of clichés, speaking "words about words", rather than speaking words that describe reality.

Language maps reality. Language can be used in various ways, to map reality with various degrees of accuracy and clarity. Language can also be used in such a way that it hangs on reality like an opaque fog, obscuring the reality beneath it.

 

In the movies, if the Invisible Man puts on a tight-fitting glove, all of a sudden you can see his hand and fingers clearly. What was once invisible, is now clearly visible. I like it when language does that. I like it when language reveals expericence clearly, like a tight-fitting glove on the Invisible Man's hand.

 

I tend to think that my experience of Srila Prabhupada's presence in my life is not all that unusual, among people who self-identify as followers of Srila Prabhupada. I've communicated with people whose experience of Srila Prabhupada in their lives is similar to mine. Years ago, I read an article by Mother Malini, and I particularly resonated with the following excerpts from it:

 

 

 

 

"

...I have denied myself the right to express, or even accept, my experience regarding gurus. Pressures have been so strong that I've felt inadequate, deficient, and isolated. Now I feel at liberty to acknowledge and connect with my experience and live blissfully with it. (...) You may reject or label me, and thereby strengthen your convictions in the status quo. Or, as is my hope and prayer, you may recognize that I'm genuinely sharing insights and realizations that are important for me (...)

 

"

When I joined I was given to the care of a senior mataji. She introduced me to Srila Prabhupada the way people do when they want two persons to have a relationship. She was expert at bringing Srila Prabhupada alive in my life. She taught me how truly and comfortably I could go to Srila Prabhupada in any of his manifested forms for shelter. I brought anything to him; mental problems and speculation, shame and desire. He taught me and cared for me from the very beginning. He has been present in my life ever since and I can always count on him.

"

 

 

 

Thank you for reading my post.

 

Sincerely, Alex

[Beggar]

Dear Bhakta Alex,

How will we know who really is guru?

Sri Guru and His Grace,

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya argued that Sri Caitanyadeva could not have been an incarnation. Gopinatha Acarya told him, "You do not know the sastra. No, no," Sarvabhauma said, "In the scriptures it is mentioned that the Lord does not appear in Kali-yuga, but only in three ages and is therefore known as Triyuga. " Gopinatha Acarya replied, "You think that you know so much about sastra, but in the Srimad-Bhagavatam and Mahabharata, there is direct mention of the avatara of Kali-yuga. Have you no knowledge, no recognition of that?" Then Sarvabhauma apparently defeated, said, "You go and take prasadam,and afterwards come and teach me." Then Gopinatha said, "Not by the dint of one's study or intelligence can one understand God, but only through his grace" athapi te deva padambhuja-dvaya-prasada lesanugrhita eva hi.

 

Then Sarvabhauma said, "You say that you have that grace, and I do not? What is your reasoning behind this? You say that you have the grace of the Lord because you say that he is an incarnation. And because I can't give recognition to that, I have no grace? What is the proof of this?" Then Gopinatha Acarya replied, acarya kahe "vastu-visaye haya vastu-jnana vastu-tattva-jnana haya krpate pramana (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 6. 89). "It is evident that I have the grace of the Lord, because I know him, and that you have not, because you deny Him." The answer to your question is given here. Our own inner experience, our internal satisfaction, our connection or acquaintance with reality is the real evidence; nothing external can give any real proof.

 

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[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thank you, Beggar, for you harmonizing insights.

 

I was afraid you were going to spank me again and send me away with my tail between my legs.

 

I meant no offense, Alex. It seems like none was taken.

 

What irks me is to see folks taking a Christian approach to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Obviously, billions of people have been inspired by the teachings and example of Lord Jesus. Millions of people have similarly been inspired by the teachings and example of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Conversely, millions of people have been killed, tortured, and such due to conflicting opinions regarding the significance and application of Jesus' teachings.

 

As others have observed, we are starting to see this tendency in those who stubbornly refuse to follow the advice of Srila Prabhupada and the other Gaudiya Acharyas to seek out a qualified guru, sit at his/her feet and humbly seek instruction.

 

Whatever our qualifications and self-opinion, it is hubris to think that we can take instruction from Srila Prabhupda's books without the guidance of a senior Vaishnava. Misconceptions are almost guaranteed to arise in our minds (unless we are already fully-realized).

[Beggar]

Historians note the connection between the invention of the printing press and the rise of the Protestant Movement. Prabhupada's books are easily available on print and now are on the internet. Coupled with the excesses and abuses of power in ISKCON in the name of guruship over the last thirty years, who would expect anything less? Clearly there is a line of spiritual authority coming through Srila Prabhupada. If that line is corrupted why not seek out a parallel line that is coming from the same source and related to Srila Prabhupada? The problem is that we will now have to accept a living authority. We have all been programmed in the opposite direction, yet we always end up accepting a teacher of some sort, even if that teacher is preaching that you don't need a teacher. You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink because, "vastu-visaye haya vastu-jnana vastu-tattva-jnana haya krpate pramana', nothing external can give any real proof".

[Alex J]

 

What irks me is to see folks taking a Christian approach to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Obviously, billions of people have been inspired by the teachings and example of Lord Jesus. Millions of people have similarly been inspired by the teachings and example of Srila Prabhupada.

(...)

As others have observed, we are starting to see this tendency in those who stubbornly refuse to follow the advice of Srila Prabhupada and the other Gaudiya Acharyas to seek out a qualified guru, sit at his/her feet and humbly seek instruction.

Whatever our qualifications and self-opinion, it is hubris to think that we can take instruction from Srila Prabhupda's books without the guidance of a senior Vaishnava. Misconceptions are almost guaranteed to arise in our minds (unless we are already fully-realized).

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I often hear things such as "taking a Christian approach to Gaudiya Vaishnavism" and "trying to turn Krsna Consciousness into Christianity".

Years ago, I might have run from such an accusation, or tried to refute it, or beat myself up over it internally. It doesn't really trigger much in me anymore. That spell is pretty much broken. If a principle appears to be present in Christianity, and that principle also appears to present in Krsna Consciousness, that doesn't mean that one path is aping the other.

My understanding, based on what I've read in Srila Prabhupada's books, is that the guru-disciple relationship is based on the transfer of divya-jnana, transcedental knowledge. The divya-jnana enters the heart and begins to stimulate change in the heart, a re-awakening.

I don't see it as hubris to take instructions from Srila Prabhupada. I also remain open to hearing and considering people's experiences, realizations and understandings of Krsna Consciousness.

I experience myself as sitting at Srila Prabhupada's feet. I consider him to be a qualified guru. I'm not saying that others are not qualified, I'm simply saying that Srila Prabhupada is.

What does it mean to me that guru is the external manifestation of the Supersoul? To me, it means that the guru is teaching the same things that Krsna is teaching. The guru is teaching the same things through his words and life, which Sri Krsna is teaching in the Srimad Bhagavad Gita. The guru is telling me from the outside, the same things that Sri Paramatma is telling me from the inside via the agency of buddhi.

Of course, I am covered by at least some envy, and some Maya, maybe an by an inconceivably huge amount of both. So the buddhi, the “form-direction” of the Supersoul partially takes on the “form” of my envy and my Maya, and partially distorts the signal from Paramatma.

This is how I understand the things based on my reading of the associated descriptions in the Second Canto, and my own experience.

I understand buddhi as the “voice” of Supersoul as it comes in contact with material nature, as it comes in contact with my modes, or a person's modes.

It is like light coming through a stained glass window. The light is the “voice” of Supersoul. The different colours of the glass are the different combinations of sattva, rajas and tamas that cover and cloud the consciousness and perceptions.

The coloured light is the “form-direction” of the Supersoul, the at least partially distorted message of Paramatma, the buddhi.

So when I hear from someone who is pure, ruly pure, “saksad hari” pure, then another factor comes in. All of a sudden I am hearing from outside what Sri Krsna is telling me from inside, but I am hearing it from someone who is not filtering the message through his own modes. Sri Paramatma's message comes to me through the stained glass of my goodness, passion and ignorance, through my buddhi. The

pure person speaks the message of Sri Paramatma through a clear glass.

There is a resonance. When I hear Srila Prabhupada speak, there is something deep inside me that responds. It's like I have Velcro inside, and what he says does not just bounce off me, but sticks deep inside. It cuts through the “noise”.

I have the experience of deeply resonating with what Srila Prabhupada says and writes. The feeling is: “I am home”. Even when something he says sort of shocks me on the surface, there is still a deep feeling of resonance, a feeling that “He's telling the truth, you know...”.

What I hear/read from Prabhupada goes against certain internal “tapes” that I had, or in some cases still have, playing in my mind.

It may go against tapes that repeat things I learned from teachers, or from my friends, or from some of my heroes, or from MTV, etc.

What I hear from Srila Prabhupada seems to cut trough my insides, to go beneath all of the noise and all of the “tapes” and to connect with something deep inside me.

I have heard from other Vaisnavas and have had experiences of deep resonance with certain things that they say. Many of the things I have heard from them resonated with me on a very deep level. They felt very real in my gut and in my bones and deeper still. Even though I no longer accept some of them as authorities in my life, many things that they said still feel very real to me, at a deep level.

Now to be honest, I also heard things from many of these same devotees, young and old, punks and swamis, that kind of rubbed me the wrong way, and which still kind of rub me the wrong way.

It's not that what they said necessarily shocked my sensibilities, or confronted my societal conditioning, it just felt wrong. It felt like I was hearing one of their “tapes” playing rather than hearing Sri Paramatma speak through them. The same holds true for certain behaviors that I noticed or experienced.

At times these people could speak in a way that seemed to set my heart on fire, at other times they seemed as lost as I was.

My feeling is that the truly pure person remains pure, remains steady. They consistently speak, write and behave in a way that I will be able to resonate with at a very deep level. I will find this comforting, inspiring, energizing, reassuring, humbling, scary, challenging, eye-opening and awesome, an adventure.

There is also a related issue. Not only do I filter what I hear from inside, but I also filter what I hear/read from outside. I filter what I hear/read from Srila Prabhupada. Somehow, at least some of it gets through. The more I sincerely read and hear from Srila Prabhupada, the more seems to get through. That which gets through also gradually changes me little by little, so that even more can get through.

The more I sincerely chant, the more truth seems to get through some of my filters, some of my defences. Also, the more sattvic I can be, the more clearly I can receive from Srila Prabhupada and Supersoul, via buddhi, and the more clearly I can repeat what I have received.

If I’m filtering Paramatma from within, and if I’m filtering the guru from without, then the purer the guru, the greater the chance that his teachings will get past my filters and defences and will resonate with the inner voice of Paramatma, and with what I deeply know to be true.

The more purely I can chant, the more I can overcome some of these internal and external filters.

It becomes a sort of excavation of who I am. A digging up of two long-forgotten persons. Self-realization and God-realization occurring side by side. A gradual removal of a seemingly endless succession of masks and costumes that I wear, a gradual becoming myself again.

The more sattvic I can be, the closer my current state will be to my actual spiritual identity. While sattva is also a covering, it is the one of the three that will have the least distorting effect on my internal and external perceptions.

When I say that some of the truth that does get through my filters, and gradually changes me, in part I'm talking about its affect on my buddhi. My buddhi becomes honed and clearer. More sattvic. Gradually there is a neater fit between external perception and internal guidance.

Sastra-caksusa, seeing through the eyes of scripture, at the same time becomes as sort of seeing with an increased awareness of Supersoul, via buddhi. I read in a book and hear on a tape the same thing that God is telling me in my heart, I slowly and gradually begin to remember some of it.

As I absorb what I hear and read from Srila Prabhupada, I internalize that voice. That voice joins the chorus of “tapes” that may play inside me at different times and in different situations. The voice of Srila Prabhupada ends up taking the place of some of those “tapes”, because the voice of Srila Prabhupada is more clearly aligned with the voice of Paramatma, which is always communicating with me.

I remember hearing that Srila Prabhupada described the Bhagavad Gita as the culture of intelligence. My understanding is that Bhagavad Gita hones and develops the intelligence, purifies it. Clarifies and untangles what is already inside us.

As we regularly read the BG, our intelligence is purified, and in turn our connection with Supersoul is purified. We are able to increasingly see through the eyes of scripture, to see the world more and more as Paramatma sees it, or would have us see it. We’re increasingly able to respond to life situations as Paramatma would ideally like us to respond.

As Srila Prabhupada guides me through his purports, his internalized voice gradually guides me more and more through life. His voice becomes part of my conscience, because he is often speaking what conscience is speaking to me already anyway.

As one daily read Bhagavatam, the unwanted things in the heart gradually go away little by little. Rajas and tamas gradually go away. As some of this junk leaves, I feel better able to receive from Srila Prabhupada and from Sri Paramatma, better able to receive divya-jnana. This is how I see it.

It would seem to me that the purer the guru, the more effective and efficient is this whole process. My own purity is also a huge factor in this process. And I would say that my own purity is in large part my own responsibility. Someone else does not do it for me, though grace is an ever-present factor.

Whatever different people may feel about Srila Prabhupada's spiritual position and his purity, my gut tells me that he is, in my eyes, the person who I most aspire to have as “guru in the singular” in my life.

In my contact with the teachings of various evangelical Gaudiya Vaisnava leaders, Srila Prabhupada is the one whose teachings I most clearly and most deeply resonate with. He seems to me the one who inspires me most towards surrender and

dedication.

I would say that this conclusion is based on the application of my intelligence to my experience. I see intelligence as buddhi, form-direction of the Supersoul.

In my current state of Maya and envy I might not clearly perceive who is pure and who is not. But I have a certain idea.

When I say “my gut”, I'm referring to intuition, intelligence, buddhi.

I'm ready to accept that Srila Prabhupada was pure. I am ready to accept that he was not conditioned by the modes of sattva, rajas and tamas.

I accept that when he spoke strongly on a topic, he meant it. And that he was telling the truth, for my benefit and to my relief.

So whoever I may be, and whoever he may be, he is to me, “the guru in the singular”.

Then there is the issue of the “three-pronged” Vasinava approach to understanding truth: guru-sadhu-sastra.

For me, Srila Prabhupada is guru. His lectures and purports are manifestations of guru. His letters and conversations and videos are, as well.

The texts that he translated, many of which have been handed down since before Vyasa compiled them, these texts are sastra to me. As guru, Srila Prabhupada is a guide for me through this sastra. He guides me by his purports and lectures, and conversations and letters.

Sadhu, to me, is the truly good association. Not necessarily the officially “good association”. These are the Vaisnavas of like mind. This is the sangha, the fellowship of the faithful co-travellers. When I perform asat-sangha-tyaga, this is who I replace it with.

If I’m sincere, I feel that Krsna and Srila Prabhupada will help me to more clearlyperceive whose sangha I want to seek out.

I feel that the more sincerely I am willing to chant, read, hear and follow, the more Krsna and Srila Prabhupada will reciprocate with me, and the more open I become to their reciprocation.

Thank you very much for your time and attention in reading this fairly long post. I wanted to share that.

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Nicely said.

 

No doubt, just as my impurities prevent me from closely following the instructions of my physically-present Gurudev, your sincerity and honesty will lead you to our mutual Goal.

[cbrahma]

Gold is still gold no matter where you find it. If somebody is making a distinction between Indian gold over American gold they are not interested in the gold as much as the designation. That is maya.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Gold is still gold no matter where you find it. If somebody is making a distinction between Indian gold over American gold they are not interested in the gold as much as the designation. That is maya.

True enough.

 

But there's certainly a difference between 14k and 24k gold (what to speak of gold-plated tin), isn't there? It's all about the impurities (though I'd rather focus on the purities than the impurities) when it comes time to ascertain the gold's value--that's just good business sense.