Lord of the Flies

[Alex J]

Dear cbrahma Prabhu,

 

What is your understanding of what I wrote, in the excerpt that you've quoted? Why do you think I put the words "Christian baggage" in quotes?

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Alex J]

 

Historians note the connection between the invention of the printing press and the rise of the Protestant Movement. Prabhupada's books are easily available on print and now are on the internet. Coupled with the excesses and abuses of power in ISKCON in the name of guruship over the last thirty years, who would expect anything less? Clearly there is a line of spiritual authority coming through Srila Prabhupada. If that line is corrupted why not seek out a parallel line that is coming from the same source and related to Srila Prabhupada? The problem is that we will now have to accept a living authority. We have all been programmed in the opposite direction, yet we always end up accepting a teacher of some sort, even if that teacher is preaching that you don't need a teacher. You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink because, "vastu-visaye haya vastu-jnana vastu-tattva-jnana haya krpate pramana', nothing external can give any real proof".

Dear Beggar Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your post. From my side, I would assert that Srila Prabhupada is a living authority.

 

On the topic of excesses and abuses of power, it certainly seems that such things have taken place within the ISKCON organization. Still, I wouldn't say that this is the prime or foundational reason for my interest in cultivating a relationship with Srila Prabhupada.

 

The conception that I have of guru-tattva today, in connection with my relationship to Srila Prabhupada, is not all that different from the one that arose inside me when I first started readng Srila Prabhupada's books around 1995/96.

 

The conception went underground inside me for a while. I worked hard to suppress it, and ignore it. But it refused to stay gone. Since then, I've read more, and I've become more willing to carefully consider the validity of my own exprerience.

 

I would like to share an excerpt from the book Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link, which I think helps to clarify how a relationship with Srila Prabhupada can relate to excesses and abuses of power, which have taken place within the ISKCON organization. I'd like to include the excerpt at the end of this post. Thank you very much for reading what I wanted to share.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

<hr>

(I want Srila Prabhupada to be the direct link only because I am sick and tired of guru fall downs.)

[it's really not a matter of wanting or not wanting Srila Prabhupada to be the direct link. The Prominent Link primarily describes an experience that many devotees are having in relationship to Srila Prabhupada. The fact that that experience can exist is supported by sastra and logic, but apart from any arguments or wants or desires, the experience is a reality. This is one reason why the ideas in The Prominent Link are so difficult to refute, or even to attempt to refute- because the essay primarily describes an experience, and that is difficult to counter.

 

If there were 1,000 mahabhagavatas in Srila Prabhupada's movement performing initiation ceremonies, the principles of The Prominent Link still stand. They are not dependent on the advancement or lack of it of any of the members of Srila Prabhupada's movement. Let's say that those 1,000 mahabhagavatas had thousands of disciples who experience them as the primary deliverers of transcendental knowledge, and thus the direct links to the parampara. Let's say there are a few others, or millions of others, who experience Srila Prabhupada in that capacity. I think that the reality for those few or millions ought to be legitimized in Srila Prabhupada's movement.

 

Further, apart from the accommodation described in the above paragraph, the mahabhagavatas in Srila Prabhupada's movement might act to connect the members of his movement directly with Srila Prabhupada. That is, the pure devotees in Srila Prabhupada's movement may naturally opt to establish Srila Prabhupada as the direct link for all members of his movement. But even if not, then Srila Prabhupada should still be recognized as serving in this role for those who genuinely experience him in that relationship.

 

It is not a strong position to base one's conviction of Srila Prabhupada as the direct link on the fact that some in the role of initiating guru have had difficulties. A devotee may say that that argument is negated because his guru and so many others in the movement are pure devotees, and they'll never fall down, and newcomers should simply take primary direct shelter of them as the links to Srila Prabhupada. Some may say that they are naive and gullible, but these devotees may retort that persons like you are simply cynical and jaded. It's important to realize that the principles of The Prominent Link stand, regardless of the purity or lack of it of anyone in Srila Prabhupada's movement. The fact that many devotees in leadership positions have had spiritual difficulties adds to and supports the argument that Srila Prabhupada should be established and promoted as the direct link, for the unification of Srila Prabhupada's movement and for the protection of all participants in his society. But even if these reasons of unification and protection weren't there, the experience of Srila Prabhupada as the current and primary link to the parampara is valid in itself and must be recognized.]

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Not exactly (to my vision). It sounds like what you do is more haphazard--depending on random internet Godbrothers to clarify your misconceptions.

 

I suppose that's what I'm doing as well, in participating on this forum. I try to be honest with myself about it, though. Really, when Gurudev was here in Soquel, I did *not* take the opportunity to sit at his feet and reveal my mind. The only time I sat at his feet was to *take* something from him (Gayatri Mantra), and to give him some small token of my esteem in return. In my fearful state and lack of trust and surrender, I still try to maintain some distance and independence. This is why I am still floundering.

 

Still, I wish you all the best.

 

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response. What you've described above is what I do.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Alex J]

 

Not exactly (to my vision). It sounds like what you do is more haphazard--depending on random internet Godbrothers to clarify your misconceptions.

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response, and for your good wishes. I read Srila Prabhupada's words. The more I read, the clearer things seem. Sometimes someone recommends something from Srila Prabhupada, for me to read. I remain open to hear the experience and understanding of Vaisnavas.

 

The way I see it, a part of Krsna Consciousness is associating with devotees.

 

The interesting thing to me about the experiene that I related, is in connection to the value of letting Srila Prabhuapda speak for himself, rather than endeavouring to squeeze him into the box of my preconceptions.

 

I had a neat experience with that devotee. I read what he wrote, and I wasn't sure if it was in line with my understanding of Srila Prabhupada's teachings.

 

So I asked him a few simple questions. Sadhu-sangha. I was really impressed with his response to me. He didn't preach to me, or defend his position. He told me that it was a deep subject, then he gave me well over 30 references from Srila Prabhupada, to look at. One of these references was, from what I remember, over a hundred pages long. It was an entire chapter from the CC. The devotee asked me if I would be willing to read through these, at least once, ideally twice, before we engage in dialogue, so that we might do it with sober mind and intelligence.

 

Anyway, I still haven't read all of the references yet, but I was impressed. It was like he was letting Srila Prabhupada speak for himself, and then letting me hear him for myself, without filters, and then make up my own mind. After that, he was willing to engage in dialogue with me. I thought that was pretty cool. I don't think that sort of thing had ever happened to me before with devotees. To me this is part of friendship, sadhu-sanga.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Murali_Mohan_das]

As you said earlier, the authority is described as guru-sadhu-shastra.

 

You claim to be following that authority, when really, you are following shastra-sadhu-shastra.

 

I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not what Srila Prabhupada or any of the Gaudiya acharyas recommend.

 

I have to leave for the day. Please accept my obeisances.

 

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response, and for your good wishes. I read Srila Prabhupada's words. The more I read, the clearer things seem. Sometimes someone recommends something from Srila Prabhupada, for me to read. I remain open to hear the experience and understanding of Vaisnavas.

 

The way I see it, a part of Krsna Consciousness is associating with devotees.

 

The interesting thing to me about the experiene that I related, is in connection to the value of letting Srila Prabhuapda speak for himself, rather than endeavouring to squeeze him into the box of my preconceptions.

 

I had a neat experience with that devotee. I read what he wrote, and I wasn't sure if it was in line with my understanding of Srila Prabhupada's teachings.

 

So I asked him a few simple questions. Sadhu-sangha. I was really impressed with his response to me. He didn't preach to me, or defend his position. He told me that it was a deep subject, then he gave me well over 30 references from Srila Prabhupada, to look at. One of these references was, from what I remember, over a hundred pages long. It was an entire chapter from the CC. The devotee asked me if I would be willing to read through these, at least once, ideally twice, before we engage in dialogue, so that we might do it with sober mind and intelligence.

 

Anyway, I still haven't read all of the references yet, but I was impressed. It was like he was letting Srila Prabhupada speak for himself, and then letting me hear him for myself, without filters, and then make up my own mind. After that, he was willing to engage in dialogue with me. I thought that was pretty cool. I don't think that sort of thing had ever happened to me before with devotees. To me this is part of friendship, sadhu-sanga.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Beggar]

 

 

So I think it's possible to view Srila Prabhupada's words through institutional filters, and also other filters. Such filters may in fact be distorting or changing our perception and absorption, of what appears to be there in black and white on the page.

 

 

 

 

om ajnana timirandhasya

jnananjana salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena

tasmai sri guruve namah.

 

The siksa or instructional guru removes the "filters" in our eyes and reveals to us the inner, deeper meaning of our guru's teachings.

 

 

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Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:

<center> na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat su-puskalam </center> "One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru." In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects. There is gradation of course, but all are guru .

There are different classes of guru. All Vaisnavas are considered gurus. If the spiritual master gives even one letter to the disciple, what is contained there is infinite. The knowledge given by the spiritual master is infinite. To know and understand it fully, however, different sources are necessary.

In the highest position one can read devotion to Krsna from everywhere. If we can attain the proper vision, then everything will supply me inspiration towards the performance of our duties. Whenever Mahaprabhu saw a forest, he saw it as Vrndavana. Whenever he saw a river, he saw the Yamuna. Whenever he saw a hill, he saw it as Govardhana hill. In that highest stage, wherever we cast our glance, it will remind us about our Lord. They will teach us, they will press us to engage ourselves in service to Krsna. That is the duty of guru. Wherever we cast our glance, whatever we come in contact with will only excite us "Do your duty." That is guru. Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center. So, because every atom in Vaikuntha and Goloka will encourage us towards our duty, they are all our gurus. Gurus will be very amply available when we can raise ourselves to a higher level.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

[Alex J]

 

As you said earlier, the authority is described as guru-sadhu-shastra.

 

You claim to be following that authority, when really, you are following shastra-sadhu-shastra.

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

I thank you for your response. I acknowledge, honour, and accept that you perceive and experience me as following shastra-sadhu-shastra, rather than guru-sadhu-shastra. I'm not looking to invalidate your experience of me, gathered from reading my Internet postings.

 

From my perspective, Srila Prabhupada is not a shastra, though he did produce commentaries on shastra, and he write books that I read. Even though I would be willing to accept, in my life, Srila Prabhupada's teachings as being a kind of shastra, still I would say that Srila Prabhupada is a living individual person, and not himself a sastra. I would say that he is a guru, and that he is qualified and available.

 

I thank you very much for reading what I wanted to share.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Beggar]

 

As you said earlier, the authority is described as guru-sadhu-shastra.

 

You claim to be following that authority, when really, you are following shastra-sadhu-shastra.

 

I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not what Srila Prabhupada or any of the Gaudiya acharyas recommend.

 

I have to leave for the day. Please accept my obeisances.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

Sri Guru and His Grace

Chapt. 9 (excerpt)

 

Student: The guru accepts the responsibility to take his disciples back to godhead. So, when the guru departs how does the disciple maintain contact with the guru?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: You see, it comes to the same point. Who is guru? And why is he guru? Guru, sastra, and sadhu are one and the same thing, and we have to appreciate that. Otherwise, should we think that our onward march will be guaranteed only by the vision of our eyes? The photo of our spiritual master is not our guru, although the photo has some connection with the real guru. The eye experience and the ear experience of a person is not the whole experience. The real experience is through the words, the idea that the guru has given. That is Krsna consciousness.

If I have a real interest in Krsna consciousness, I have to adjust all other things accordingly. Otherwise, if I miss the real thing that the guru came to give me, everything will be dull idol worship. To follow the form alone will be idolatry. There are so many human figures; why is he guru? Because he is a mediator, a medium of divine knowledge. That is the criterion to be tested everywhere. Put this test anywhere and everywhere. What is the interest for which we came to Krsna consciousness? And what is Krsna consciousness? There is your guru. He is guru only because he is in Krsna consciousness, and there are different degrees of Krsna consciousness.

[Alex J]

 

 

om ajnana timirandhasya

jnananjana salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena

tasmai sri guruve namah.

The siksa or instructional guru removes the "filters" in our eyes and reveals to us the inner, deeper meaning of our guru's teachings.

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</td><td valign="top" width="585">

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

 

 

Dear Beggar Prabhu,

Thank you for your response, and for the excerpt that you've shared with me from Sridhar Maharaj, wherein he states, among other things, "All Vaisnavas are considered gurus."

 

I'd like to share with you two short excerpts from an article, which was written by Dhira Govinda Prabhu, and which I appreciate. I thought of these excerpts right away, as I read the excerpt that you shared with me. The excerpts below touch on the topic of "gurus in the plural".

 

"

We need a guru in whom we have absolute faith and whom we are willing to follow unconditionally in order to spiritually progress to the realm of pure devotion to Sri Krsna. This statement is made with reference to the point that each of us has many gurus, with 'gurus' used in the sense of 'teacher', or 'person who inspires and guides us'. We have many gurus, and it is understood that we generally don't consider these many gurus to be on the absolute platform. That is fine, realistic, to be expected. That said, we need one guru, or at least one guru, who is on that absolute platform and in whom our trust is implicit and absolute.

"

 

(...)

 

 

"

Of course, that person will naturally have so many other devotees guide, instruct and mentor him/her during their spiritual lives. Although the person may consider one or more of these other devotees to be on the absolute platform, it is not necessary that s/he considers as such, or that those guides and mentors be on that platform, because Srila Prabhupada is perfectly serving in that capacity for the aspiring devotee.

"

 

 

Thank you very much for reading my post.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Srila Sridhar Maharaja specifies:

 

 

In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru

Until we are in the highest stage of devotion, it's best not to equate "Bhagwan Sri" Rajneesh with the Srila Prabhupadas, right?

 

 

From my perspective, Srila Prabhupada is not a shastra, though he did produce commentaries on shastra, and he write books that I read. Even though I would be willing to accept, in my life, Srila Prabhupada's teachings as being a kind of shastra, still I would say that Srila Prabhupada is a living individual person, and not himself a sastra. I would say that he is a guru, and that he is qualified and available.

And from my perspective you're deceiving yourself and trying to deceive others (perhaps "playing games" would be a kinder way to phrase it).

 

Unless you claim to clearly hear the voice of Srila Prabhupada (and, even then, such claims would be suspect) in your heart, your only access to the person Srila Prabhupada is through his writings, lectures, letters, etc., which certainly fall under the category of shastra.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

That said, we need one guru, or at least one guru, who is on that absolute platform and in whom our trust is implicit and absolute.

 

And it's so much easier to have "implicit and absolute" trust in a guru who will never throw us a "curve ball" (or at least one who has thrown all the curve balls he/she will have thrown in a given incarnation), isn't it?

 

As Sripad Goswami Maharaja observed not long ago, to follow Srila Saraswati Prabhupada necessitated a constant expansion of one's view of the Krishna Conception, because his presentation was radical and revolutionary. For the followers of "our" Srila Prabhupada who knew him during his manifest pastimes, much the same can be said.

 

While Srila Gurudev speaks often on the same topics (the H.O.T. principle, for instance), those of us who have heard him speak more than once know that there is always something fresh, new, and revelatory to be found in his teachings based, no doubt, on time, place, and circumstance.

 

Srila Prabhupada's teachings are timeless, no doubt, but they were also adjusted according to time, place, and circumstance. He himself is no longer adjusting those teachings except through his dear followers.

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.20.25

 

 

sa uttamaśloka mahan-mukha-cyuto

bhavat-padāmbhoja-sudhā kaṇānilaḥ

smṛtiḿ punar vismṛta-tattva-vartmanāḿ

kuyogināḿ no vitaraty alaḿ varaiḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

saḥ — that; uttama-śloka — O Lord, who are praised by selected verses; mahat — of great devotees; mukha-cyutaḥ — delivered from the mouths; bhavat — Your; pada-ambhoja — from the lotus feet; sudhā — of nectar; kaṇa — particles; anilaḥ — soothing breeze; smṛtim — remembrance; punaḥ — again; vismṛta — forgotten; tattva — to the truth; vartmanām — of persons whose path; ku-yoginām — of persons not in the line of devotional service; naḥ — of us; vitarati — restores; alam — unnecessary; varaiḥ — other benedictions.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

My dear Lord, You are glorified by the selected verses uttered by great personalities. Such glorification of Your lotus feet is just like saffron particles. When the transcendental vibration from the mouths of great devotees carries the aroma of the saffron dust of Your lotus feet, the forgetful living entity gradually remembers his eternal relationship with You. Devotees thus gradually come to the right conclusion about the value of life. My dear Lord, I therefore do not need any other benediction but the opportunity to hear from the mouth of Your pure devotee.

PURPORT

It is explained in the previous verse that one has to hear glorification of the Lord from the mouth of a pure devotee. This is further explained here. The transcendental vibration from the mouth of a pure devotee is so powerful that it can revive the living entity's memory of his eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In our material existence, under the influence of illusory māyā, we have almost forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord, exactly like a man sleeping very deeply who forgets his duties. In the Vedas it is said that every one of us is sleeping under the influence of māyā. We must get up from this slumber and engage in the right service, for thus we can properly utilize the facility of this human form of life. As expressed in a song by Ṭhākura Bhaktivinoda, Lord Caitanya says, jīva jāga, jīva jāga. The Lord asks every sleeping living entity to get up and engage in devotional service so that his mission in this human form of life may be fulfilled. This awakening voice comes through the mouth of a pure devotee.

A pure devotee always engages in the service of the Lord, taking shelter of His lotus feet, and therefore he has a direct connection with the saffron mercy-particles that are strewn over the lotus feet of the Lord. Although when a pure devotee speaks the articulation of his voice may resemble the sound of this material sky, the voice is spiritually very powerful because it touches the particles of saffron dust on the lotus feet of the Lord. As soon as a sleeping living entity hears the powerful voice emanating from the mouth of a pure devotee, he immediately remembers his eternal relationship with the Lord, although up until that moment he had forgotten everything.

For a conditioned soul, therefore, it is very important to hear from the mouth of a pure devotee, who is fully surrendered to the lotus feet of the Lord without any material desire, speculative knowledge or contamination of the modes of material nature. Every one of us is kuyogī because we have engaged in the service of this material world, forgetting our eternal relationship with the Lord as His eternal loving servants. It is our duty to rise from the kuyoga platform to become suyogīs, perfect mystics. The process of hearing from a pure devotee is recommended in all Vedic scriptures, especially by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. One may stay in his position of life — it does not matter what it is — but if one hears from the mouth of a pure devotee, he gradually comes to the understanding of his relationship with the Lord and thus engages in His loving service, and his life becomes completely perfect. Therefore, this process of hearing from the mouth of a pure devotee is very important for making progress in the line of spiritual understanding.

[cbrahma]

A bona fide guru is rare. That is somebody who has transcended material nature. Just one such guru is enough to lead us. Why this mandate to proliferate?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

"Bona fide" means, simply "good faith". It does not mean "Divinely ordained", or even "infallible".

 

So, whose "good faith" are we talking about? Is it the guru acting in good faith, or is it the disciple's good faith inquiry? Or is it both?

 

Another thing which the "Swami Jesus Prabhupada" folks conveniently ignore is: not only does the disciple need to accept the spiritual master, but the spiritual master must ACCEPT THE DISCIPLE.

 

As merciful as Srila Prabhupada is, how do *know* that he is accepting you as his disciple???

 

 

A bona fide guru is rare. That is somebody who has transcended material nature. Just one such guru is enough to lead us. Why this mandate to proliferate?

[cbrahma]

Main Entry: bo·na fide

Pronunciation: <TT minmax_bound="true">'bO-n&-"fId, 'bä-n&-; "bO-n&-'fI-dE, -'fI-d&</TT>

Function: adjective

Etymology: Latin, in good faith

1 a : characterized by good faith and lack of fraud or deceit <A bona fide offer> b : valid under or in compliance with the law <RETIREMENT bona fide employee benefit plan>

 

2 : made with or characterized by sincerity 3 : being real or genuine <bona fide residents>

 

The most important meaning of 'bona fide', the one defined by Prabhupada is in the third meaning - real or genuine.

He specifies the requirements - not simply sincere - but pure -uttama adhikari

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[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'm glad you're so certain of Srila Prabhupada's intention. Why not accept disciples?

 

Merry Krishna!

 

 

Main Entry: bo·na fide

Pronunciation: <tt minmax_bound="true">'bO-n&-"fId, 'bä-n&-; "bO-n&-'fI-dE, -'fI-d&</tt>

Function: adjective

Etymology: Latin, in good faith

1 a : characterized by good faith and lack of fraud or deceit bona fide offer> b : valid under or in compliance with the law <retirement>bona fide employee benefit plan>

 

2 : made with or characterized by sincerity </retirement>3 : being real or genuine <bona fide residents>

 

The most important meaning of 'bona fide', the one defined by Prabhupada is in the third meaning - real or genuine.

He specifies the requirements - not simply sincere - but pure -uttama adhikari

<!-- google_ad_section_end(name=def) -->

 

[cbrahma]

 

I'm glad you're so certain of Srila Prabhupada's intention. Why not accept disciples?

 

Merry Krishna!

He made his definition of bona fide quite clear in many of his purports. The certainty doesn't require speculation. Read up.

[Alex J]

 

And from my perspective you're deceiving yourself and trying to deceive others (perhaps "playing games" would be a kinder way to phrase it).

 

Unless you claim to clearly hear the voice of Srila Prabhupada (and, even then, such claims would be suspect) in your heart, your only access to the person Srila Prabhupada is through his writings, lectures, letters, etc., which certainly fall under the category of shastra.

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response, and for continuing to correspond with me. There's no need to soften your choice of words. You seem to experience me as engaging in self-deception, and as wishing to deceive other people. You seem to see me as lying to myself, and then lying to others, thus doing them harm. I acknowledge and accept that this may be how you perceive me.

 

You may see me differently from how I experience myself. I'm not looking to convince you. I do want to express and assert my experience and understanding. I don't want to shut up, or withdraw, simply because you see things differently from how I see them.

 

I experience Srila Prabhupada as being present in my life. I'm interested in sharing about this experience with others. Others may or may not be interested in reading what I want to share. Still, I feel benefit from honestly sharing it on this forum.

 

In connection with this theme of presence, there's an excerpt from an article by Dhira Govinda Prabhu, that I would like to include below. You may or may not find it interesting. You may or may not connect with it. Still, I'd like to share it at the end of this post.

 

Thank you to everyone who reads it.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

 

<hr>

In Vaisnava societies the question has arisen whether the relationship between spiritual master and disciple necessitates physical presence. Of course there are numerous quotes from Srila Prabhupada regarding the primary importance of vani compared to vapu. Still, the controversy is there, with regards to the continuation of the disciplic succession, regarding the role of physical presence.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam explains "Persons who are learned and who have true knowledge define sound as that which conveys the idea of an object, indicates the presence of a speaker screened from our view and constitutes the subtle form of ether." (SB 3.26.33)

 

I invite us to consider this verse with respect to the question of presence. Sound vibration indicates the presence of a speaker screened from view. So, when we hear Srila Prabhupada’s sound vibration, might we understand that he is, with reference to the above definition, present and screened from our view. This screening, of course, is a reflection of our limitations and not of Srila Prabhupada’s lack of full presence.

 

Lord Brahma received knowledge, was initiated into knowledge, from a Speaker screened from view. Does that indicate that the initiation was not valid, because the speaker remained concealed? Did Lord Brahma not have a living spiritual master, because the Speaker was screened from view? We understand from Srila Prabhupada that Lord Brahma received knowledge from within the heart. I think it’s important to realize that this is the case not just with Brahma. In any authentic relationship between guru and disciple, knowledge is received within the heart. "Divya jnan hrde prokoshito."

 

Genuine disciplic succession is based on sound, and it is also based on presence, though this presence is not mundane. My understanding is that even if the spiritual master, in the common sense of the term, is “physically present”, still he is screened from the view of conditioned souls. That is, his transcendental position is not seen, or understood. And, transcendental knowledge is conveyed through the heart. In a consciousness of receiving this knowledge, we open a direct relationship with the guru. His presence is manifest, and the essential process of diksa is alive within us. This consciousness that allows us to enter this relationship entails a conscious choice to serve our spiritual master.

[Alex J]

 

And it's so much easier to have "implicit and absolute" trust in a guru who will never throw us a "curve ball" (or at least one who has thrown all the curve balls he/she will have thrown in a given incarnation), isn't it?

 

Dear Murali Mohan Prabhu,

 

Thank you for your response. I find myself often learning and discovering new things, as I read and re-read Srila Prabhupada's writings. There seems to be more than a lifetime's worth of reading for me, in Srila Prabhupada's writings.

 

You seem to have a sense of humour, so I'd like to share with you something that I find funny, at the end of this post. It's an excerpt from an email that I got from Dhira Govinda Prabhu on Oct. 8^th, 2006.

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

<hr>

We've heard the position that asserts the necessity for a "physically present guru". This stance seems to be susceptible to the banana peel argument. That is, the physically present current link slips on a banana peel and thereby ends his manifest pastimes. Oh no, now I don't have a physically present guru. Let me go to Radha-kunda, or Oklahoma, or wherever, to find one. There, I did it. I found another physically present guru who is now my direct link. But look out for that banana peel...

 

Then of course an advocate of that position may assert that the physically present spiritual master can still impart knowledge after his manifest pastimes are completed, so there is no need to search again for another. But then it seems that this sort of transmission of knowledge, not dependent on physical presence, is possible for just about anyone, except Srila Prabhupada.

In presenting the above it is important to realize that as aspiring devotees we of course want to hear from physically present spiritual teachers to enrich and guide our spiritual lives. The banana peel presentation above refers to the "guru in the singular", the direct and prominent link to the parampara.

[Alex J]

 

What is missing is cogent points that are established by textual reference and hard won experience.

 

Dear Bhaktajan Prabhu,

 

At the end of this email, I'd like to share with you some other references from Srila Prabhupada, which you might potentially find interesting.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

<hr>

 

 

"

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

 

 

"

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)

 

 

 

"

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association.

" (Srila Prabhupada, lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

 

 

"

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spiritual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association.

" (Srila Prabhupada, Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, BBT 1973, Page 57)

 

 

 

"

Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75)

 

 

 

 

"

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

" (Srila Prabhupada, Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

 

 

"

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

" (Srila Prabhupada, SB 3.31.48, purport)

 

 

 

"

I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67)

 

 

 

Paramananda:

"

We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always meditating on your instructions.

"

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:

"

Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is not important.

" (Srila Prabhupada, room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

 

 

 

 

"

You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always thinking of me . That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is helping me by his spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of association: physical and preceptorial. Physical association is not so important as preceptorial association.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69)

 

 

 

"

As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc., then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74)

 

 

 

"

Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Subala, 29/9/67)

 

 

 

Devotee:

"

...so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks 'How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?'

"

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:

"

Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words.

" (Srila Prabhupada, SB Lectures, 71/08/18)

 

 

 

 

 

 

"

Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.

" (Srila Prabhupada, Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)

 

 

 

"

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase, which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean, Krsna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean, prakata or aprakata, physically present or not present, it does not matter

." (Srila Prabhupada, lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

 

 

"

So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may be in far distant place.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68)

 

 

 

"

I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67)

 

 

 

"

We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)

 

 

 

"

So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his instruction, I never feel separated from him.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)

 

 

 

"

I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's word is more important than to serve him physically.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70)

 

 

 

Paramahamsa:

"

My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad Gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

"

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:

"

Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?

" (Srila Prabhupada, Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

 

 

[mahak]

good stuff alex, so glad you came to audarya, yer surf ant, mahaksadasa

[Beggar]

Dear Bhakta Alex,

Thank you for your posts. I'm sure that you understand that all your quotes from Srila Prabhupada on the topic of hearing and serving him in physical seperation can be viewed in the context that the persons he is writing to or for either had some personal association or were at least serving his mission during the time of his manifest lila. There are plenty of the Bengali writings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur to satisfy residents of Bengal who would wish to see him as "the prominent link". And obviously the same is true for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur. This was discussed in this essay by Srila Saraswati Thakur written almost two decades after Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's disappearance,

 

"Those who repeat the teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinoda from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat

...What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees.

Thakur Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,

The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6

[mahak]

mechanical repetition. A new thread should be started on this point alone.

 

My view is that the teachings of the acaryas are prasadam. Of course, our duty as disciple is to distribute prasadam, yet is it proper or even wise to distribute without tasting as well.

 

If we view teachings of the acaryas in this light, then there is no mechanical repetition, there is just tasting first, then distributing. This means "scrutinizingly understand" (one of my favorite prabhupada phrases, right up there with phantasmagoria and gradual process) as much as practicable, (meaning apply what one understands, take a notch above the theory level), then begin spreading this movement, telling all you meet what you have come to REALIZE.

 

There is no mechanical repetition in this process, only krsna katha, only hartinama samkirtana, bhakti yoga. There is no value in hearing teachings from those who warp the meaning of such teachings. Tape recorders are much better, because there is no additives that can reverse meanings.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Alex J]

 

Dear Bhakta Alex,

Thank you for your posts. I'm sure that you understand that all your quotes from Srila Prabhupada on the topic of hearing and serving him in physical seperation can be viewed in the context that the persons he is writing to or for either had some personal association or were at least serving his mission during the time of his manifest lila. There are plenty of the Bengali writings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur to satisfy residents of Bengal who would wish to see him as "the prominent link". And obviously the same is true for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur. This was discussed in this essay by Srila Saraswati Thakur written almost two decades after Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's disappearance,

Dear Beggar Prabhu,

 

Thank you very much for reading my posts, and thank you for sharing the excerpt from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, from a 1931 issue of the Harmonist. I read the excerpt with interest. I appreciate the points that you bring up.

 

With respect to the quotes from Srila Prabhupada, relating to "presence", vapu and vani, it seems to me that in addition to addressing specific situations relating to specific people, Srila Prabhupada makes statements about general principles. Though I remain open to the possibility that these quotes from Srila Prabhupada, which I shared, might be relevant only to those people who were serving his mission before November 14^th, 1977, I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that this is the full meaning of the quotes.

 

With respect to the acaryas Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, and how the Prominent Link model might relate to them, I'd like to share an excerpt from the book Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link, which I feel is interesting in relation to this topic.

 

I thank you for reading.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

 

<hr>

 

Çréla Prabhupäda is not physically present and the PL model claims that he can be the direct link to the paramparä. Would it be acceptable, then, if a devotee accepted Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura as the direct link to the paramparä?

<u1>

</u1>In the verse yasya deve parä bhaktir yathä deve tathä gurau tasyaite kathitä hy arthäù prakäçante mahätmanaù, Çré Kåñëa specifies a two-center system, with the Lord as one center and the spiritual master as the other center. The spiritual master center must be the current link to the paramparä. We maintain that Çréla Prabhupäda is the current link and suggest that he can remain in that role for the duration of his movement. As described at the end of the Scenarios section, Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers know Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura and the other personalities who constitute the paramparä primarily through Çréla Prabhupäda. Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers, however, notwithstanding when they joined his movement, are expected and encouraged to develop a primarily direct relationship with Çréla Prabhupäda. This direct relationship is naturally enhanced by the guidance and realizations provided by Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers.<u1></u1><u2></u2><o></o>

 

All members of Çréla Prabhupäda’s movement do have direct relationships with Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura, Çréla Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura, Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu, and other transcendental personalities. These relationships, however, are not primarily direct, but are primarily through Srila Prabhupada. <u1></u1>

“Direct, current, and primary link to the paramparä" is defined as the Vaiñëava through whom Çré Kåñëa is giving the most direct transcendental knowledge. For many devotees, regardless of who performed the initiation ceremony, Çréla Prabhupäda fulfills the definition of direct, current and primary link. It is important for the institution to acknowledge that Çréla Prabhupäda is playing this role, and will continue to play it for many, perhaps even most, members of his movement, for the lifetime of his movement. <u1></u1>

What if someone claims "By the definition given above, the direct link for me is Çréla Rüpa Gosvämé [or Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu, or Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura]"? The view of the PL model is that if someone did originally connect with the saìkértana movement through the books of Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura or Çréla Rüpa Gosvämé, then Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura or Srila Rupa Goswami would arrange to connect that person to Çréla Prabhupäda, because Çréla Prabhupäda is the current link for the present time. Still, we are open to hear and observe the experiences of others, and adjust our perspective accordingly. If someone claims to be directly connected with someone other than Çréla Prabhupäda, in the primary sense as enunciated in PL, we recognize that possibility, though we are cautious about accepting such claims.<u1></u1>

 

Çréla Prabhupäda’s organization is for those who are directly connected with the paramparä through Çréla Prabhupäda. Someone may be primarily linked to the paramparä through someone else, and that is appreciated. However, that linkage is not necessarily part of Çréla Prabhupäda’s institution. For example, if someone is in the line of the Çré-sampradäya, Çréla Prabhupäda’s followers honor that, while recognizing that it’s not in Çréla Prabhupäda’s line.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

He made his definition of bona fide quite clear in many of his purports. The certainty doesn't require speculation. Read up.

 

...and, what makes a Guru genuine if it is not his/her implicit faith in Sri Krishna?

 

You seem unwilling to accept that faith is the lynchpin in all of this. You seem to hanker for empiric evidence and dry reason much the same as the atheists with whom I discuss similar matters on another site.

 

What makes Guru genuine is not his/her book learning, the hoops through which he/she has jumped, or any other mundane consideration.

 

What makes Guru genuine is the unshakeability of his/her faith. To that extent, *all* of the definitions of "bona fide" apply, not just number 3.