the hierarchy of mercy?

[cbrahma]

I have never had a satisfactory explanation of how an individual is to progress to the ultimate vision of seeing all living entities as parts and parcels of Krsna by participating in the whole rigid hierarchical system of

points and privileges.

Initiation both first and second, full time service, varna-asrhama- sannyasa and on and on...

This hierarchical view has practical impact on how others are treated - a need to label and categorize them according to their hierarchical and religious credentials.

I find this absolutely unattractive and the furthest thing from spiritual realization.

 

vidya vinaya sampane brahmane gavi hastini

suni caiva sva pake ca panditah sama darsinah (Gita

5.18)

 

The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with

equal vision a learned and a gentle brahmana, a cow,

an elephant, a dog and a dog eater.

 

If this is not the ultimate knowledge and realization , then what is?

[Kulapavana]

 

The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with

equal vision a learned and a gentle brahmana, a cow,

an elephant, a dog and a dog eater.

 

If this is not the ultimate knowledge and realization , then what is?

 

do you have that vision now?

 

the way I see it, first the hierarchy is created out of the chaos of material designations in order to bring us to the mode of goodnes consciousness and activities. only then a properly purified person can eventually come to this ultimate realization.

[cbrahma]

 

do you have that vision now?

 

the way I see it, first the hierarchy is created out of the chaos of material designations in order to bring us to the mode of goodnes consciousness and activities. only then a properly purified person can eventually come to this ultimate realization.

At least the Christians and other mainstream religions acknoweldge 'welcoming the stranger' as a basic principle. In fact with Jesus in went beyond that to 'love your enemy'.

Whether I have that realization is not the point. The point is how can a hierarchical religious system ever bring one to that point of equal vision.

[skp]

 

do you have that vision now?

 

the way I see it, first the hierarchy is created out of the chaos of material designations in order to bring us to the mode of goodnes consciousness and activities. only then a properly purified person can eventually come to this ultimate realization.

 

Very well said Kulapavana Ji. It is a process of first going to the mode of Goodness by following all the rules and regulations of the Varnaashrama Dharma and then with the Grace and Mercy of Krishna and Guru transcending even the mode of Goodness to reach the level of Pure Devotional service.

[Kulapavana]

 

The point is how can a hierarchical religious system ever bring one to that point of equal vision.

 

the point is that you start with a hierarchical religious system in order to develop your own spiritual vision.

[cbrahma]

 

the point is that you start with a hierarchical religious system in order to develop your own spiritual vision.

weird

[skp]

 

At least the Christians and other mainstream religions acknoweldge 'welcoming the stranger' as a basic principle. In fact with Jesus in went beyond that to 'love your enemy'.

Whether I have that realization is not the point. The point is how can a hierarchical religious system ever bring one to that point of equal vision.

 

Hierarchy is needed if an institution has to get something done. Otherwise there tends to be quite a lot of chaos and confusion. But, it should not be a hindrance to equal vision because the hierarchy is only in relation to the temporary body. In terms of the spirit-soul there is only rendering pure love for Krishna.

[Kulapavana]

 

At least the Christians and other mainstream religions acknoweldge 'welcoming the stranger' as a basic principle. In fact with Jesus in went beyond that to 'love your enemy'.

 

Dont even get me started on this subject... Christians and other Abrahamic religions also spilled more blood in the name of their faith then any other religion. Loving their enemy was never a popular practical aspect of Christianity.

 

Theory is nice, but what counts is the reality on the ground.

[cbrahma]

 

Hierarchy is needed if an institution has to get something done. Otherwise there tends to be quite a lot of chaos and confusion. But, it should not be a hindrance to equal vision because the hierarchy is only in relation to the temporary body. In terms of the spirit-soul there is only rendering pure love for Krishna.

Organization doesn't require a rigid hierarchy of privilige and position.

My experience is the minds of those participating are more caught with their positional qualifications than achieving the humilty of equal vision.

Only if the community needs military action is such a hierarchy needed.

To always gravitate toward militancy reveals a pathological mindset.

[cbrahma]

 

Dont even get me started on this subject... Christians and other Abrahamic religions also spilled more blood in the name of their faith then any other religion. Loving their enemy was never a popular practical aspect of Christianity.

 

Theory is nice, but what counts is the reality on the ground.

Can you say Kuruksetra?

[indulekhadasi]

The point is that if you go outside you will find, learned scholars, warriors, businessmen, and ordinary workers. You will also find bachelors, family men, retired people, and renunciates. So according to their material occupation or status, they are different. The learned man sees these people with equal vision because his vision transcends their material occupation/status and just sees that they are all spirit souls. In this way, they are all equal.

 

Jai Nitai!

[Beggar]

 

In terms of the spirit-soul there is only rendering pure love for Krishna.

This is the introductory concept, beyond that is the conception of being the servant of the servant of the servant of Krishna, "dasadasanudasa". Here we find the basis of an eternal relationship with Sri Guru and Krishna's Supreme sakti and herein lies the real "herarchy of mercy".

[Shakti-Fan]

[srila Narayana Maharaja:]Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has come here only to give the goal of these mantras (Mahamantra and gayatri mantras):

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

["May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Saci-devi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love". (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 1.4)]

Have you heard this sloka? Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to donate this gift to the world – unnatojjvala rasa. What is the meaning of unnatojjvala rasa? Sriman Mahaprabhu has come to teach us how to love Krsna. He has not come especially to teach how Yasoda loves Krsna. This has been given before. Srila Vallabhacarya and all others have given this. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has not come to give the love of the cowherd boys for Lord Krsna, nor has He come to teach how Rukmini and Satyabhauma love Him. That has been given by Sri Ramacandra and also by Krsna. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came only to distribute unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti sriyam.

Actually, He has come to give sriyam – not ujjvalla-rasa. He has come to taste unnatojjvala-rasa, the bhava of Srimati Radhika. Do you understand? This unnatojjvala-rasa cannot be given because that kind of mahabhava is the topmost point of love – but its sriyam can be given. What is the meaning of sriyam? Sri means beauty. Srimati Radhika is likened to a creeper, and its beauty is its leaves and flowers. When the leaves and flowers of the creeper move gently in the breeze, we can then see how beautiful the creeper is. If there are no flowers or leaves on that creeper, there is no beauty. We don't want to be Srimati Radhika – the creeper. We want to be the leaves and flowers of the creeper. We want to be palya-dasis (unpaid maidservants) of Srimati Radhika and nothing more.

Are you understanding something in this regard? I have given you a hint. You should gradually read about this topic, and that will help you so much. You can study Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's Madhurya-Kadambini, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma, Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, and Srimad Bhagavatam. All of these books will give you so much fruit.

[cbrahma]

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:]Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has come here only to give the goal of these mantras (Mahamantra and gayatri mantras):

 

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

 

["May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Saci-devi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love". (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 1.4)]

 

.

That's very poetic and beautiful...but the practical achievement through an authoritarian system of position and priviledges is completely enigmatic.

Love is supposed to be my letting some guy who deems himself guru, wipe the floor with me, run my life (or what's left of it). Shudder ...brrr.

I'd rather be Nosferatu.

[bhaktajan]

Are these trains-of-thoughts born of playing Devils Advocate?

Are these some kind of intellectual Debating exercises?

 

The word that comes to mind is 'spurious' rendering of topics.

Also, 'slovenly' spoken tracts also comes to mind.

 

"Absolute" is what TRUTH is. Seek what is absolute vs. waht is subjectively the chewed chew.

 

oy vey -- ys,

Bhaktajan

[cbrahma]

 

Are these some kind of intellectual Debating exercises?

 

The word that comes to mind is 'spurious' rendering of topics.

Also, 'slovenly' spoken tracts also comes to mind.

 

 

 

This topic goes to the heart of the bhakti-marga process, one that is very important to me. If you don't see the point or the meaning, then don't respond with your personal offensiveness.

[skp]

 

Organization doesn't require a rigid hierarchy of privilige and position.

My experience is the minds of those participating are more caught with their positional qualifications than achieving the humilty of equal vision.

Only if the community needs military action is such a hierarchy needed.

To always gravitate toward militancy reveals a pathological mindset.

 

What you said is a drawback which a hierarchical structure could bring. Of course, the process of spreading Krishna consciousness is a battle against external energy of Krishna and therefore a subtle military action for sure. The advantage being that the weapon used here is Krishna's instructions and Krishna's Holy Names.

[Kulapavana]

 

Can you say Kuruksetra?

Kuruksetra was not a religious war akin to wars between Christians an Muslims for example. Such wars are an almost exclusive domain of Abrahamic religions

[cbrahma]

 

What you said is a drawback which a hierarchical structure could bring. Of course, the process of spreading Krishna consciousness is a battle against external energy of Krishna and therefore a subtle military action for sure. The advantage being that the weapon used here is Krishna's instructions and Krishna's Holy Names.

I expected that analogy. But a 'subtle' army doesn't have to be grossly authoritarian. The neo-Vedic system of today is dictated to be an authoritarian caste system.

I have seen very little genuine spirituality come from it. Mostly abuse, pettiness and manipulation.

[Kulapavana]

 

Organization doesn't require a rigid hierarchy of privilige and position.

My experience is the minds of those participating are more caught with their positional qualifications than achieving the humilty of equal vision.

Only if the community needs military action is such a hierarchy needed.

To always gravitate toward militancy reveals a pathological mindset.

 

The authoritarian structure of Iskcon was started by Prabhupada. He valued the material results (such as temples opened, books distributed, money collected, etc.) such rigid structures produced. He was not in favor of democratic methods and later on (after his departure) the system implemented by him turned into a totalitarian nightmare of "zonal acharya" days.

 

In hindsight we can say that it all could have been done in a better way. That may be true, but hindsight is usually 20/20

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by cbrahma I have never had a satisfactory explanation of how . . . participating in the whole rigid hierarchical system of points and privileges.

 

 

SB 6.4.32 Purport:

. . . [bg. 18.55] “Only by devotional service am I to be known.” The bhaktas know that the Supreme Person has no material form, whereas the jnanis simply deny the material form. One should therefore take shelter of the bhakti-marga, the path of devotion; then everything will be clear. Jnanis concentrate on the virat-rupa, the gigantic universal form of the Lord. This is a good system in the beginning for those who are extremely materialistic, but there is no need to think continuously of the virat-rupa.

NOD [end of Chap 16]:

. . . This process of devotional service is sometimes called pusti-marga. Pusti means “nourishing,” and marga means “path.” Such development of sentiment nourishes devotional service to the highest standard. Thus it is called the path of nourishment, or pusti-marga. The Vallabha-sampradaya, which belongs to the Visnusvami sect of Vaisnava religion, worships Krsna in this pusti-marga. Generally devotees in ffice:smarttags" />TEXT 8.3.11 Purport:

. . . Devotional service is called naiskarmya. Mere negation of material activity will not endure. Naiskarmyam apy acyuta-bhava-varjitam.

Unless one performs activities with reference to Krsna consciousness, cessation of material activities will not be helpful. In hopes of achieving naiskarmya, freedom from material action, many highly elevated sannyasis stopped their activities, yet they failed and returned to the material platform to act as materialistic persons.

But once one is engaged in the spiritual activities of bhakti-yoga, one does not fall down. Our Krsna consciousness movement is therefore an attempt to engage everyone always in spiritual activity, by which one becomes transcendental to material actions. The spiritual activities of bhakti-marga—sravanam kirtanam visnu smaranam pada-sevanam [sB 7.5.23]—lead one to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Therefore, as stated here, sattvena pratilabhyaya naiskarmyena vipascita: “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is realized by pure devotees who act in the transcendental existence of bhakti-yoga.”

The Gopala-tapani Upanisad (15) says, bhaktir asya bhajanam tad ihamutropadhi-nairasyenaivamusmin manasah kalpanam etad eva ca naiskarmyam.

This is a definition of naiskarmya. One acts in naiskarmya when he fully engages in Krsna conscious activities without material desires to enjoy, either here or in the upper planetary systems, in the present life or in a future life (iha-amutra).

Anyabhilasita-sunyam [bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]. When one is freed from all contamination and he acts in devotional service under the direction of the spiritual master, one is on the platform of naiskarma. By such transcendental devotional service, the Lord is served. I offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.

Servant of the servant of Krishna's devotees and pot washers,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: Who's your daddy?

[cbrahma]

 

SB 6.4.32 Purport:

. . . [bg. 18.55] “Only by devotional service am I to be known.” The bhaktas know that the Supreme Person has no material form, whereas the jnanis simply deny the material form. One should therefore take shelter of the bhakti-marga, the path of devotion; then everything will be clear. Jnanis concentrate on the virat-rupa, the gigantic universal form of the Lord. This is a good system in the beginning for those who are extremely materialistic, but there is no need to think continuously of the virat-rupa.

NOD [end of Chap 16]:

. . . This process of devotional service is sometimes called pusti-marga. Pusti means “nourishing,” and marga means “path.” Such development of sentiment nourishes devotional service to the highest standard. Thus it is called the path of nourishment, or pusti-marga. The Vallabha-sampradaya, which belongs to the Visnusvami sect of Vaisnava religion, worships Krsna in this pusti-marga. Generally devotees in ffice:smarttags" />TEXT 8.3.11 Purport:

. . . Devotional service is called naiskarmya. Mere negation of material activity will not endure. Naiskarmyam apy acyuta-bhava-varjitam.

Unless one performs activities with reference to Krsna consciousness, cessation of material activities will not be helpful. In hopes of achieving naiskarmya, freedom from material action, many highly elevated sannyasis stopped their activities, yet they failed and returned to the material platform to act as materialistic persons.

But once one is engaged in the spiritual activities of bhakti-yoga, one does not fall down. Our Krsna consciousness movement is therefore an attempt to engage everyone always in spiritual activity, by which one becomes transcendental to material actions. The spiritual activities of bhakti-marga—sravanam kirtanam visnu smaranam pada-sevanam [sB 7.5.23]—lead one to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Therefore, as stated here, sattvena pratilabhyaya naiskarmyena vipascita: “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is realized by pure devotees who act in the transcendental existence of bhakti-yoga.”

The Gopala-tapani Upanisad (15) says, bhaktir asya bhajanam tad ihamutropadhi-nairasyenaivamusmin manasah kalpanam etad eva ca naiskarmyam.

This is a definition of naiskarmya. One acts in naiskarmya when he fully engages in Krsna conscious activities without material desires to enjoy, either here or in the upper planetary systems, in the present life or in a future life (iha-amutra).

Anyabhilasita-sunyam [bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]. When one is freed from all contamination and he acts in devotional service under the direction of the spiritual master, one is on the platform of naiskarma. By such transcendental devotional service, the Lord is served. I offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.

Servant of the servant of Krishna's devotees and pot washers,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: Who's your daddy?

Your point being?

[cbrahma]

 

Kuruksetra was not a religious war akin to wars between Christians an Muslims for example. Such wars are an almost exclusive domain of Abrahamic religions

There was at least as much blood spilled. As many innocents killed. Spare me the religious distinctions.

[Kulapavana]

 

There was at least as much blood spilled. As many innocents killed. Spare me the religious distinctions.

 

What innocents were killed at Kuruksetra? like WHO? these were all professional soldiers willingly going into battle. Distinctions ARE important. It is not all one, you know...

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by cbrahma I have never had a satisfactory explanation of how . . . participating in the whole rigid hierarchical system of points and privileges.

 

Sri Isopanisad Introduction:

. . . The Vedas are not compilations of human knowledge. Vedic knowledge comes from the spiritual world, from Lord Krsna. Another name for the Vedas is sruti. Sruti refers to that knowledge which is acquired by hearing. It is not experimental knowledge.

Sruti is considered to be like a mother. We take so much knowledge from our mother. For example, if you want to know who your father is, who can answer you? Your mother. If the mother says, “Here is your father,” you have to accept it. It is not possible to experiment to find out whether he is your father.

Similarly, if you want to know something beyond your experience, beyond your experimental knowledge, beyond the activities of the senses, then you have to accept the Vedas. There is no question of experimenting. It has already been experimented. It is already settled. The version of the mother, for instance, has to be accepted as truth. There is no other way. The Vedas are considered to be the mother, and Brahma is called the grandfather, the forefather, because he was the first to be instructed in the Vedic knowledge.

In the beginning the first living creature was Brahma. He received this Vedic knowledge and imparted it to Narada and other disciples and sons, and they also distributed it to their disciples. In this way, the Vedic knowledge comes down by disciplic succession. It is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita that Vedic knowledge is understood in this way.

If you make experimental endeavor, you come to the same conclusion, but just to save time you should accept. If you want to know who your father is and if you accept your mother as the authority, then whatever she says can be accepted without argument.

There are three kinds of evidence: pratyaksa, anumana and Sabda.

1—Pratyaksa means “direct evidence.” Direct evidence is not very good because our senses are not perfect. . . .

2—Then there is anumana, inductive knowledge: “It may be like this”—hypothesis.

3—Vedic knowledge is called sabda-pramama. Another name is sruti. Sruti means that this knowledge has to be received simply by aural reception. The Vedas instruct that in order to understand transcendental knowledge, we have to hear from the authority. Transcendental knowledge is knowledge from beyond this universe. Within this universe is material knowledge, and beyond this universe is transcendental knowledge. We cannot even go to the end of the universe, so how can we go to the spiritual world? Thus to acquire full knowledge is impossible. . . .

Sri Isopansad Mantra 8 Purport:

. . . In the Bhagavad-gita (9.11–12) the Lord regrets the fallen condition of men with little knowledge who deride Him because He descends like a man into this world. Such poorly informed persons do not know the omnipotence of the Lord. Thus the Lord does not manifest Himself in full to the mental speculators. He can be appreciated only in proportion to one’s surrender to Him.

The fallen condition of the living entities is due entirely to forgetfulness of their relationship with God. . . . A living being desires something, and the Lord supplies the object of that desire in proportion to one’s qualification. If a man wants to be a high-court judge, he must acquire not only the necessary qualifications but also the consent of the authority who can award the title of high-court judge. The qualifications in themselves are insufficient for one to occupy the post: it must be awarded by some superior authority.

Similarly, the Lord awards enjoyment to living entities in proportion to their qualifications, but good qualifications in themselves are not sufficient to enable one to receive awards. The mercy of the Lord is also required.

Ordinarily the living being does not know what to ask from the Lord, nor which post to seek. When the living being comes to know his constitutional position, however, he asks to be accepted into the transcendental association of the Lord in order to render transcendental loving service unto Him. Unfortunately, living beings under the influence of material nature ask for many other things, and they are described in the Bhagavad-gita (2.41) as having divided, or splayed, intelligence. Spiritual intelligence is one, but mundane intelligence is diverse. . . .

Sri Isopansad Mantra 13 Purport:

. . . When Lord Sri Krsna was present on this earth, the bhakti-yoga principles defined in the Bhagavad-gita had become distorted; therefore the Lord had to reestablish the disciplic system beginning with Arjuna, who was the most confidential friend and devotee of the Lord. The Lord clearly told Arjuna (Bg. 4.3) that it was because Arjuna was His devotee and friend that he could understand the principles of the Bhagavad-gita. In other words, only the Lord’s devotee and friend can understand the Gita. This also means that only one who follows the path of Arjuna can understand the Bhagavad-gita.

At the present moment there are many interpreters and translators of this sublime dialogue who care nothing for Lord Krsna or Arjuna. Such interpreters explain the verses of the Bhagavad-gita in their own way and postulate all sorts of rubbish in the name of the Gita. Such interpreters believe neither in Sri Krsna nor in His eternal abode. How, then, can they explain the Bhagavad-gita? . . .

Ys,

Bhaktajan