the hierarchy of mercy?

[Kulapavana]

 

Such are the mistakes of people with less experience. I have conceded defeat to Kulapavana prabhu before. Better not try to challenge great devotees anymore.

 

Didi Indulekha, you are very humble indeed.

 

Such inquiries are not challenges. We are constantly learning from others and re-adjusting our views. The pursuit of spiritual knowledge and realization never ends, it is always increasing. But the key in this process of growth is our humility and willingness to reject our old and simplistic ideas in order to embrace fuller and deeper concepts.

 

I am not a very advanced devotee and I learn even from people who ask me questions. Also, sometimes we ourselves develop a deeper understanding of things when we try to explain them to others. And I learn even more when people help me realize I was wrong about something.

[cbrahma]

How could I guess that I would be accused of offensiveness as the reason I don't accept the hierarchy. I've run through that hamster mill before.

How could I guess that this would become the cue for 'dedicated' disciples to market their guru. The Narayana Maharaja disciples, the Sridara disciples all swarming for the 'big sell'.

All this of course confirming what I said about the hierarchy.

[Kulapavana]

 

How could I guess that this would become the cue for 'dedicated' disciples to market their guru. The Narayana Maharaja disciples, the Sridara disciples all swarming for the 'big sell'.

All this of course confirming what I said about the hierarchy.

 

This is not necessarily true.

 

We "market" our guru because we value his influence and try to share him with others. Just like we "preach" KC because we try to share the good message with others. I dont see it in terms of "expanding the empire of my guru".

[Beggar]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

"Those who have enough courage will jump into the unknown, thinking "Krsna will protect me, I am jumping in the name of God, He is everywhere, "He will take me on His lap". With this idea, one who has real eagerness for the truth may leap forward."

 

 

Good, the higher you climb on the artificial ladder, maybe to bogus guru, the bigger you splat when you fall down.

 

 

How could I guess that this would become the cue for 'dedicated' disciples to market their guru.

 

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that Srila Sridhar Maharaj is talking about what western theologians call "a leap of faith".

 

Leap of faith

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in something without, or in spite of, available empirical evidence. It is an act commonly associated with religious belief as many religions consider faith to be an essential element of piety.

The phrase is commonly attributed to Søren Kierkegaard; however, he himself never used the term, as he referred to a leap as a leap to faith. A leap of faith according to Kierkegaard involves circularity insofar as a leap is made by faith.<sup id="_ref-Cambridge_0" class="reference">[1]</sup> In his book The Concept of Anxiety he describes the core part of the leap of faith, the leap. He does this using the famous story of Adam and Eve, particularly Adam's qualitative leap into sin. Adam's leap signifies a change from one quality to another, mainly the quality of possessing no sin to the quality of possessing sin. Kierkegaard maintains that the transition from one quality to another can take place only by a "leap" (Thomte 232). When the transition happens, one moves directly from one state to the other, never possessing both qualities.

It is important to understand that Kierkegaard felt a leap of faith was necessary in accepting Christianity due to the paradoxes that exist in Christianity. In his book Philosophical Fragments, Kierkegaard delves deep into the paradoxes that Christianity presents. One of these is the belief that there existed a being (Jesus) who is both 100% man and 100% God. Since neither logic nor reason can reconcile this, one would require faith to believe it in light of the paradox. So, when one decides to have faith that a being existed as both God and man, one makes a qualitative change from non-belief to belief, and thusly makes a 'leap of faith' that it is true.

The implication of taking a leap of faith can, depending on the context, carry positive or negative connotations, as some feel it is a virtue to be able to believe in something without evidence, while others feel it is foolishness. It is a hotly contested theological and philosophical concept. For instance, the association with "blind faith" and religion is disputed by those with deistic principles that argue reason and logic, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God.

Even some theistic realms of thought do not agree with the implications that this phrase carries. For instance C. S. Lewis argues against the idea that Christianity requires a "leap of faith," (as the term is most commonly understood). One of Lewis' arguments is that supernaturalism, a basic tenet of Christianity, can be logically inferred based on a teleological argument regarding the source of human reason. Nonetheless, many Christians are not too critical of the term, and do accept that religion requires a "leap of faith".

 

References

 

 

• Kierkegaard, Soren. [1844] (1980). The Concept of Anxiety Edited by Reidar Thomte. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

1. ^ Hannay, Alastair, and Gordon Marino. (eds.) The Cambridge Companion to Kierkegaard. Cambridge, ISBN 0-521-47719-0

[cbrahma]

The leap of misplaced faith from the frying pan into the fire. I've known too many victims of this guru-control-hierarchy system to believe otherwise.

[Beggar]

Narasimha Maharaja:

 

In The Golden Volcano of Divine Love

Srila Sridhar Maharaja lists seven transcendental glories of chanting Krishna nama in this first verse of Shikshastaka.He lists them as follows; 1. Krishna nama cleanses the mirror of the heart. 2. Krishna nama extinguishes the fire of material existence. 3. Krishna nama bestows the supreme goal of life. 4.Krishna nama prepares us for wholesale surrender in madhurya-rasa.5. Krishna nama gives us a taste of the infinite ocean of ecstasy. 6. Krishna nama fully satisfies and purifies all phases of the self. 7. Krishna nama is the essential ingredient in all devotional service.

[Beggar]

SRIMAD BHAGAVAD-GITA

The Hidden Treasure of the Sweet Absolute

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

From the Introduction

 

Tyaga or renunciation has been completely condemned, and its futility has been emphatically asserted. This proclamation shows the conclusive, intrinsic gift of Sri Gita. Karma-yoga, or offering one's actions to the Supreme Lord without provincial interest, is preferred above karma-tyaga, or renunciation of action and finally, full selfsurrender

to the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna, with every action dedicated by divine inspiration in his loving service is the ultimate and supreme teaching of Sri Gita, one will find it to be the king of all scriptures asthe bestower of the highest devotion. In its full-fledged nature, this devotion is the most supreme love divine, love for the all-attractive Supreme Personality Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful. Sarva-dharman parityajya, mam ekam saranam vraja - the grand, vibrant, and resounding clarion call of Sri Gita has proclaimed the glories of life's superexcellent objective. Hidden, more hidden, and the most hidden treasures have been given, from the congregational chanting of the holy names of the Lord (sankirtana) up to spontaneous devotion (bhava-seva) in the life of total dedication to the cultivation of Krsna consciousness with exclusive surrender. This is the consistent and unanimous conclusion of the pure parampara, or descending spiritual succession, as corroborated by the genuine followers of the lotus footsteps of Sri Caitanyacandra, the original

Supreme Lord, who descends to deliver the fallen souls of Kali-yuga, this iron age of quarrel and strife.

[cbrahma]

Ah yes the key phrase 'surrender' that's locks the door to the hierarchical prison house.

[Beggar]

 

Ah yes the key phrase 'surrender' that's locks the door to the hierarchical prison house.

March 25, 1976:

Reporter (5): But what would you attribute this to?

Pusta Krsna: What would you attribute this to? What is the cause of this?

Prabhupada: Cause of this? One simple cause is they have become unfortunate. They give up the real thing, and they accept the imitation. So that is their misfortune. If there are two shops, everyone knows "Here is real gold, and here is imitation gold." If you go to purchase imitation gold, that is his misfortune.

[stonehearted]

Listen: surrender has nothing to do with any hierarchies, and it's the key to actual freedom. Its essence is that Krishna is our exclusive maintainer. The saranagata subits himself or herself at Krishna's lotus feet with the conviction that he will maintain and protect us. And, according to Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Sri Nanda Kumar hears the prayers of those who have assimilated the six aspects of surrender.

 

I'm not sure just where this bug you have about hierarchies (which have nothing to do with mercy) comes from, unless you've been burned by intitutionalized preaching too many times. So figure out what you want from your life, find out what it takes to attain that, and go for it. You don't have to join anything or sign up for any bureaucracy to get Krishna prema.

 

Whatever you choose, have fun.

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

From The Golden Volcano of Divine Love,

 

We must be prepared for any unfavorable circumstances, but we must not be discouraged. Krishna is most affectionate; His care towards us

is most acute and sincere. His affection towards us has no rival. Still, Sriman Mahaprabhu has given us a warning in this verse: "You are coming to search after Krishna? Krishna is not a sweetball from the market that you can purchase and finish so easily. You are trying to attain the highest of the high, so you must be prepared for anything."

At the same time, the devotees will come to us saying, "Have no fear. We are all like you. Let us all walk together in a straight line. Don't be afraid-we are here." We are told that Krishna's devotees are even more sympathetic to us than Krishna Himself. The solace of our life and our fortune is His devotees, and Krishna says: mad bhaktanam ca ye bhakta, "One who is a servant of My servant is My real servant."Sadhu-sanga, the association of saints, is the most important and valuable thing for us. To make our advancement and progress towards the infinite, our association is our guide; it is all-important. We must stick to this conclusion:

'sadhu sanga,' 'sadhu sanga,'-sarva sastre kaya

lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya

The conclusion has been given in the scriptures that all perfection can be attained by the help of the saints. Good association is our greatest wealth in reaching the supreme goal.

[seamusjcarroll]

my thoughts , judge and critic , yet using intelligience, a fine line between thinking and feeling , the emmoinal content being fully cognant in the thinking , spiritual principles can only be practiced , to acknowledge the devine within all theorecticaly has no woth without the emoitnal being , mercy starts with hearing but mercy manifest with doing thinking and feeling all combined , into one eternal momemt where you become unchanging in memory ie that you aquire the abillity to remember the truth , spiritual truth, without principles we can not unravel , this mercy for me started while i was greatly disturbed, mercy was question , prabhupada was is answer and direction to evoke memory that fixs you into a perpective , and practice the key, if you do not love me now then when , individual eternal soul , atma paramatma is the only logical way to engage,otherwise we stumble on difference, and then our minds dictate our lives , and then where is love

[cbrahma]

 

Listen: surrender has nothing to do with any hierarchies, and it's the key to actual freedom. Its essence is that Krishna is our exclusive maintainer. The saranagata subits himself or herself at Krishna's lotus feet with the conviction that he will maintain and protect us. And, according to Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Sri Nanda Kumar hears the prayers of those who have assimilated the six aspects of surrender.

 

I'm not sure just where this bug you have about hierarchies (which have nothing to do with mercy) comes from, unless you've been burned by intitutionalized preaching too many times. So figure out what you want from your life, find out what it takes to attain that, and go for it. You don't have to join anything or sign up for any bureaucracy to get Krishna prema.

 

Whatever you choose, have fun.

I have no idea what you mean by surrender other than the political necessity for a guru/hierarchy to exact complete obedience (ie power).

[stonehearted]

Dear Lord--who do you associate with? I'd suggest you read books that address saranagati, such as Nectar of Devotion, or Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about surrender. You might also try spending some time with Bhaktivinoda Thakura's songs of saranagati. This has nothing with anyone's need to exact obedience from others, nothing whatsoever with exercising power, but with reforming our hearts to the extent that they become fit for housing the Lord's lotus feet. If that's not your goal, it's no surprise you have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Beggar]

 

I have no idea what you mean by surrender other than the political necessity for a guru/hierarchy to exact complete obedience (ie power).

 

 

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.

 

<dl><dd class="author">

Karl Marx

,

Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right

 

German economist & Communist political philosopher (1818 - 1883)

</dd></dl>

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

The Fallen Angel (Satan) knows it all, but he is blinded by his envy of the Lord.

 

Ignorance. Ignore-ance. Ignoring what is plainly seen.

 

 

Dear Lord--who do you associate with? I'd suggest you read books that address saranagati, such as Nectar of Devotion, or Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about surrender. You might also try spending some time with Bhaktivinoda Thakura's songs of saranagati. This has nothing with anyone's need to exact obedience from others, nothing whatsoever with exercising power, but with reforming our hearts to the extent that they become fit for housing the Lord's lotus feet. If that's not your goal, it's no surprise you have no idea what I'm talking about.

[theist]

 

[Kulapavana]

 

The Fallen Angel (Satan) knows it all, but he is blinded by his envy of the Lord.

 

 

Oh, no! dont tell me you believe in that stuff?

 

the Satan fairytale is like the fall from Goloka stuff. good for kids but really bad for adults.

[Beggar]

 

 

[tackleberry]

 

Oh, no! dont tell me you believe in that stuff?

 

the Satan fairytale is like the fall from Goloka stuff. good for kids but really bad for adults.

 

But isn't it somewhat similar to Kamsa and other asuras envying Lord Krishna? One of the basic qualities of asuras is hatred/envy of Krishna, right? So maybe, the satan story was derived from this principle.

[suchandra]

 

But isn't it somewhat similar to Kamsa and other asuras envying Lord Krishna? One of the basic qualities of asuras is hatred/envy of Krishna, right? So maybe, the satan story was derived from this principle.

 

To use biblical content caution is required.

 

 

 

"Bible Belt Blogger: Huck is right:

Mormons believe Jesus, Satan are brothers – by Frank Lockwood

 

 

Get ready for an uproar, folks. Mike Huckabee apparently told a New York Times reporter that Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers. The story isn't going to run until Sunday, but somebody leaked details to the Associated Press. AP has now moved a story suggesting that Huckabee's a nut and an ignoramus for making such a crazy intolerant statement. There's only problem -- Huckabee is right...

 

When I read the AP story, I raised my eyebrows a bit. But I decided to check the church's official website before posting anything.

 

I found the following mini-article, entitled "How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?" It ran in the 1986 version of the church's official magazine, Ensign.

 

I'm posting the entire text, but here's one of the key lines: "Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer's older brother." Again -- the source is fairly sound. It's from the church's own website.

[Beggar]

 

Oh, no! dont tell me you believe in that stuff?

 

the Satan fairytale is like the fall from Goloka stuff. good for kids but really bad for adults.

The "Satan fairytale" is only a fairytale if it is taken literally. Other than that it is full of theistic meaning of a figurative type.

[Beggar]

Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhara Deva Goswami

Unconditional Service

Sermons of the Guardian of Devotion

Vol 1 - Chapter Five

Not only self-abnegation, but self-surrender is necessary to approach God. Deep self-surrender will take us into connection with the higher, noble substance, and it must be cultivated by all means. And service is not service to maya. I must be very careful to perceive that I am not merely serving maya, who has apeared in a charming or "godly" form. In our present position we must be extremely cautious regarding who and what we are serving. The main wave will be jnane prayasam udapasya (Bha: 10.14.3): hatefillly discard (ud-apa-asya) all proposals that your intellect may offer you. Whatever the intellect can judge and accept or reject must necessarily be of a lower type. So you are to summarily reject that, and understand that you must bow down your head (namanta eva).

The beginning of your interest is to bow down your head, and your heart will be captured automatically. Try to connect with that section where you will always be with folded palms, and where you can never be master. Such abnegation and courage of selfgiving is necessary if you want to live in the higher plane. Otherwise, you may reign in hell. According to Satan's word, "it is better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven." But just the opposite is necessary.

Even tears and crying have no value if the inner tendency of self-giving is absent. Seva, service, means self-giving, and that is the standard principle in the life of a devotee. This self-giving must really be to the higher sphere and not just haphazardly around us, for that is another way to be captured by hateful things.

Jnana, knowledge, is generally regarded as being very pure. By the majority of people, jnana is considered to be very innocent because It has no relationship with gross, material things. It is always admitted that to handle the gross material energy is very unwholesome (sasvad abhadram); and knowledge is considered by the higher personalities to be very pure, very innocent and spotless (jnanam aIam niranjanam). But if it is not connected with Krsna, such knowledge must be hatefully rejected.

naiskarmmyam apy acyuta-bhava-varjjiitam

na sobhate jnanam alam niranjanam

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.12 Here, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it is said that knowledge is widely considered to be spotless, pure and innocent, but if it is not connected with the positive absolute good, then it is your enemy. A qualified candidate will consider things in this way. Jnana-sunya-bhakti: Surrender is so pure, that any connection with knowledge, which is considered to be very innocent and pure-even that must be hatefully rejected. Such a degree of surrender is necessary for the higher association of genuine devotion.

Both the charm of material acquisition, and the charm of the mastery of knowing everything, are to be rejected (jnana-karmmady-anavrtam). It is not possible for you to know anything about the infinite, either in magnitude or quality. The infinite is a flow of autocracy, so what can you know of it? Therefore, knowledge means more than storing so many relative or false incidents, and selling that information to the world in order to fulfill some other function such as personal name and fame. Hatefully give this up and engage in unqualified and unconditional service. That is noble, and that will take you up to the nobler region.

Thus, karmma and jnana--handling matter and handling knowledge --both are discouraged. Knowledge won't be allowed to enter that market where the absolute will and autocracy relgn. No rule and regulation can work there. False gathering and false store have got no standing there.

Only surrender, and we will have that high relationship. Serving attitude is our friend. We are a unit of serving attitude, and service means to surrender to the higher. And the hlgher means the plane uncontamlnated with material and intellectual acquisition. We must serve such a higher plane.

[Beggar]

Oh yee of little faith, prepare to meet your maker!

Wait a minute, what's that Kitty?...go ahead Kitty, make my day!

 

[Kulapavana]

 

But isn't it somewhat similar to Kamsa and other asuras envying Lord Krishna? One of the basic qualities of asuras is hatred/envy of Krishna, right? So maybe, the satan story was derived from this principle.

 

The Satan story is actually derived from the ancient middle-eastern beliefs of the eternal fight between Good and Evil in this world. As such, Satan is a real competitor to God.

 

In the Vedic tradition God has no competitor, there is no eternal struggle between good and evil. Thus there is no Satan. There are only petty demons occasionally killed by God for the amusement and benefit of His devotees.