Where is the fault in ISKCON?

[krsna]

By Jatayu dasa (SDG)

 

 

<!-- end .post-top --><!-- the main section of the post goes here -->I can ask any devotee I see about faults in ISKCON and will find myself in a long conversation. But then I take a step back and ask myself again, where are the faults? Actually there are none. There are none because ISKCON is based on the Vedic scriptures such as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita, which are perfect in themselves.

 

ISKCON was formed by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada who is a perfect student of such literatures. So where is the fault? The fault lies in me, in my heart. Not in ISKCON.

Look at it closely, whatever faults are found in ISKCON some are ones that I myself brought into it. Of course, ISKCON was formed so that any man or woman suffering from the pangs of material life can come and learn to free themselves from such troubles. But the troubles and problems I find in ISKCON are not ISKCON’s, they are mine.

Within ISKCON I will find the perfect yoga system for self realization as taught by numerous saints and sages of the past. I will also find that all of its members, though sincere in their desires, are not perfect, but neither am I.

As we enter ISKCON we bring with a bundle of problems with us, which, get dealt out to those devotees around us. I may be a pure spirit soul but I am a pure spirit soul who is conditioned by material nature.

So, what are the faults? Irresponsible leaders? They are everywhere, in all companies, in all nations. Child abuse? That’s everywhere, in all religions, throughout all society. Women’s issues? Everywhere, for years. Frustrated? Yes, of course, but where am I going to live where these things don’t exist? These problems were not born in ISKCON, they were brought into ISKCON. The social structure of ISKCON prohibits these activities. ISKCON is meant to set up a society based on the religious tenets found in Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavata gita so that modern man can find shelter from these atrocious activities. Those who join are expected to uphold, protect and promote the philosophy of these great literatures. Those who deviate are the fault, not ISKCON. And those who stand by and do nothing share in that fault and those who criticize ISKCON, feed the fault.

Therefore, I should not make the mistake of identifying ISKCON with the actions of bad devotees but I can identify ISKCON with good devotees. Because when the good devotees first arrived, they were not good. But now that they have become good then that is the credit for ISKCON. ISKCON is meant to bring in conditioned souls suffering in the material world and make them happy by purifying their consciousness. If this does not happen then it is the fault of the individual for not taking to the program properly. To say that ISKCON is bad because there are problems within it is a grievous mistake. ISKCON is always good and will always create good devotees.

ISKCON is not bad because some individuals have failed to succeed. And I cannot say that because bad devotees exist then I am unable to advance in my own spiritual life. I am responsible for my own life and it is I that am responsible for following the rules and regulations stated in ISKCON. No one can do the work of self-realization for me, that is my responsibility. Also, no one can stand in the way of a relationship between a spiritual master and his disciple. There is no person and no situation that can stop the flow of Krsna’s mercy upon us.

If I were to say ISKCON has many problems, I would be wrong. It would be more correct to say that, as these spirit souls come to ISKCON to perfect their lives, they will, inadvertently cause problems as they themselves struggle to become free from material bondage. The faults lie within all conditioned souls. The faults I see are also my own and it is my responsibility to correct them. ISKCON is the vehicle to correct and/or to remove such actions from our hearts. ISKCON is there to assist me and anyone else who are suffering from the modes of material nature. ISKCON is not an illusion factory of ever happy endings, it is a philosophical institution meant to teach and guide all living entities back to the spiritual world and back into their original loving relationship with Krsna. It is the responsibility of the individual though, to take the necessary steps towards that goal.

ISKCON is meant to create an environment where its members can come together spending the day serving Krsna and enlivening one another by discussing His pastimes and qualities. This is actually what is going on in the spiritual world. If someone is deviating from these activities in a serious way then by me focusing attention on his activities and by criticizing him, then I am also in a fallen state. Instead of placing myself in a mood of judging I should simply go on glorifying Krsna and allow Krsna to deal with the manner in His own way. I should remember that Krsna is also dealing with me and all devotees individually in such a way as to purify us. If a situation arises where my life is disrupted then I should not try to solve the problem externally but look within to see what Krsna wants me to solve there. I should also understand that we are a community and as a community it is also our responsibility to assist each other, not that we stand around and watch material nature drag down individual devotees one by one.

ISKCON does not cause problems, it solves them. No matter what problem arises among us, the solution to such problem can be found in Srila Prabhupadas books. Granted, problems do exist that are not so easy to cure. And I have seen that to cure them a host of other problems arise one after another. Patience and tolerance is certainly required at this time, along with prayer. Were devotees to throw a rock at each dark spot in me, surely I would have no place to duck. So let me practice, do onto others what I would have them do unto me. Let me pray for their advancement; let me pray that Krsna’s kindness would guide them to become a more mature devotee. I are not here to become a great leader or manager; I’m here to become pure. I am here to reestablish my relationship with Krsna, my dear most friend. Each person in his or her services is undergoing the same process of purification and we all have our own battles to fight. So instead of hatred, let me offer assistance; instead of condemning let me forgive and instruct. Let me forgive as Krsna and my spiritual master has forgiven me. ISKCON is promoting the highest religious standards in the world today. Let me read the seven purposes of ISKCON, read the rules one must follow to live in the temple, read the books I am to study and to teach others, that is ISKCON. Look at the teachings of the six goswami’s, that is ISKCON. Look at the rich culture of Vaisnava tradition and the disciplic succession, that is ISKCON.

If I do not see myself gradually becoming freed from material desires and becoming happy, then I have not joined ISKCON. I have to admit that most of the time I actually do not comprehend the depth of ISKCON. ISKCON is not a social club, ISKCON is a totally dynamic spiritual force meant to bring about a revolution in the consciousness of the entire world for many generations to come. Therefore, I should not identify the faults of a devotee with ISKCON; I should identify the faults with the material world. Problems will always be there. Troublemakers will come and go. Immature devotees will say and do immature things. It is an imperfect world so the perfect situation will never be found. I should learn to deal with each situation individually and in a way that it produces a Krsna conscious result. I may not always see an example to follow; but they are there, a lot of examples. And, if there were no examples, then I should become the example. Why do I always throw the burden of responsibility on others? I am a mature adult and should start acting like it.

ISKCON does not solve material problems, it gives spiritual solutions. But I am too quick to judge and correct others and am slow to judge and correct myself. Many criticisms are placed on our leaders. They too are not fault free. And, without question, I have made errors. But is my fault finding in the interest of lending assistance to heal an aiding society or is it meant as a vicious weapon to hurt others as means to cover up my own faults? Or still, am I looking for an excuse not to give up the sense gratification I am so dearly holding onto? I must consider as I judge and condemn my fellow devotee and the organization ISKCON, a cloud of material consciousness covers me, rendering me ineffectual in such circumstances.

Working sincerely to bring the wrong doers closer to his own perfection is what ISKCON is all about. It will be my own material desires that will distort and twist all that I hear and see. Many devotees have left ISKCON because of this reason or that, but have they reached perfection outside ISKCON? I should remember that at one point in my life, through years of suffering, I prayed for help. ISKCON was the answer to that prayer. Some even go so far as to judge Srila Prabhupada by saying that he did not give us everything, how arrogant. He gave us everything we need to return to the spiritual world. Such an unfortunate situation, that we leave his shelter after he cared for us for so many years, even forgiving us for our animal like behavior. ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada have rendered the highest service to mankind by distributing knowledge of the individual souls relationship with Krsna and as soon as ISKCON encounters some difficulty its own members turn against it. Therefore I say, if I find fault, then it is me that is ISKCON’s greatest fault. If I find fault with ISKCON, I find fault with Srila Prabhupada. And by doing so, the severest tragedy awaits me. Let the pseudo intellectuals talk all they want about the perfect society.

If I want the perfect society, then I should chant Hare Krsna perfectly and all the faults in ISKCON will flee. I must learn to stop talking about how others are not following Srila Prabhupada, but start talking about how I am not. Of course troublemakers should be dealt with but in an authorized manner. Negative talk among the devotees will hurt us more than any enemy outside of ISKCON. By negative thought and speech we are actually accepting the association of the modes of material nature. And by doing so, our future as a devotee remains uncertain. Devotees who abuse their management positions indeed bring into ISKCON a destructive element but criticism of them brings us greater harm, for both the speaker and the hearer. Therefore let me, with a sober mind deal with such problems where all parties benefit.

Many of us have seen bad managers remain in their posts far too long. We must keep in mind though that Krsna also sees them and it is Krsna that will make the final decision when and how such an individual be corrected or removed. Remember, such bad managers are also conditioned souls trying to free themselves from material nature. My goal in such cases should maintain charity and I should also avoid judging such persons in a final way, which gives him no room to change, correct or recover from his mistakes. Devotees must learn to stand up for their rights as an individual and as a group. But it should be performed intelligently and according to the Vaisnava standards that Srila Prabhupada has given us.

The road to spiritual life is not always an easy road to tread. There will be problems. But it is still my responsibility to serve Krsna with body, mind and words. Even if every devotee around me falls down, Krsna’s mercy is still available to me. I can safely say that all devotees will make a mistake; even sincere devotees who are trying to serve ISKCON. As Srila Prabhupada said, all of our books, all of our study and all our endeavors are meant to get people to chant Hare Krsna. This is our real work because this is where the purification begins. When someone begins to chant Hare Krsna I should understand that he is not an ordinary person. It is extremely rare for the living to chant Hare Krsna and try to surrender to the orders of the spiritual master.

When I see a fault it is not the time to criticize but a time to reach out and help. I should think how it will feel when no friends are found by my side when I need them most. How horrible it must feel when I fall and there is no one to extend a helping hand. This is the real mood of ISKCON, a group of individuals working together towards a common goal and when one falls, others go back, without regard for their own comfort and pick him up. All of us have been wounded by material nature; some of us are slow to accept the teachings and others always need someone to tell them what to do but when that sincere devotee steps forward to offer a helping hand without judgment then the actions of that individual devotee reflects the true depth of ISKCON. And when the leaders themselves act to rectify their mistakes and show that they see themselves accountable for their own mistakes then the society at large will become more united as they watch these devotees develop into qualified leaders.

ISKCON may suffer slightly from our wrongdoing but it will always recover. It will recover because it is Lord Caitanya’s sankirtana movement and therefore it is glorious. It is glorious because it issues forth the chanting of the Lord’s holy name and it distributes transcendental literature that glorifies the activities of Krsna. All over the world these literatures are to be found. All over the world one can hear the chanting of the Hare Krsna Maha Mantra. All over the world the Deity form of Krsna is being worshiped, prasadam is being distributed and thousands of individuals are being purified and are returning to the spiritual world. This is the real glory of ISKCON. ISKCON is perfect and complete; I only have to correct the mistakes I have made.

So where is the real fault? The only fault in ISKCON is in me, that I have not fully surrendered to this wonderful and dynamic process of self-realization. The faults lie in my heart. The faults lie in my inability to forgive, the lack of caring for others and the lack of personal interaction. These are the real evils that are tearing apart our society. This impersonalism, there is no greater enemy than this. Real unity will come when I develop discussion about Krsna, when I find pleasure in the activities of Krsna, when my only business is to give Krsna to everyone around me. Then the faultfinding will stop, the anger in my heart will disappear, the lusty desires that permeate my entire being will turn into love of Krsna and I will actually become happy and peaceful and the faults will not exist any more.

[suchandra]

They say ISKCON but don't say that it is turned into a privately owned fund-raising global org with proprietors who claim to be as good as God. It is no more a spiritual society what Prabhupada actually wanted. When joining ISKCON today you have to sign a pile of documents which say that you never ever will demand back anything you once donated. This is their main focus. And that's what ISKCON is all about, to find people who donate their heirship, savings, lot of land, etc. - let them sign and gradually mob them out again because this is anyway no more a spiritual society where people can develop.

 

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

ISKCON is a business in the guise of a religion in the guise of a spiritual movement.

But the endoctrination which you have nicely provided assures that it can do no wrong.

No matter what injuries to mind, body and soul it might inflict- is my fault.

This is called a religious cult - a dangerous one.

[gHari]

That guy/gal really had their head screwed on.

[seamusjcarroll]

dear prabhu , prabhupada movement is pure because he offers the remedy , but like all the institutions on this planet , not one has risen out of political and mental war ,children were abused , women were , new members ill treated , bogus interpretations, misleading many people, when i work at the temple in soho , helping with building work , my main focus was to serve krishna , but there was so much presure to become initiated, that there was a kind of frenzy , and a lot of defending of so called gurus , to say i do not feel inspired by such gurus , people would shout aparadh, all discusions were stifled , and now after all this time , so many still saying my guru is best , i believe prabhupada wanted us all to become guru in our own right , instructing only according to realisation not above position , our duty is to always protect the devotees with trancendental knowledge, cheaters are cheated ei if i am cheated it is because my heart is not clean i can not blame others , the service i render has to come from my heart , not because i belong to an organization , and then blind myself to the faults that exist , as a builder if i were only arrogant , i would never accept fault , and in the end no one will be satisfied, iskon is pure at heart because of prabhupada not because of us we are all patients praying to be healed, and as we heal we aquire the skills to help others heal , if reults are authentic they become self evident , there is no way to hide the truth , all the devotees that have come into contact with prabhupada are part of prabhupada family , less or more is not the question for me , sincerity and a true desire to serve , high or low all service done with love is accepted, love of krishna , see in all , ie service to all , high or low , iskon is a branch of a much greater tree , if we do not as individuals water the root we as individuals leaves on that branch will not flourish , who to blame , forget blame , if something is not useful why force ourselves , krishna means the all atracting , and you can not force any one to love , all process done without love or devotion is futile, when i was in radhakund , there was so much resistance and not much freindship , if you do not fit you are nothing , so much for love , this is pure neophyte stage , a vaisnava is a friend to all , by always assisting with trancendental love , if we all begin to speak love the truth of that love will surface no matter where we are , this necter is always present , when we acting for love, with prabhupada instrutions , jai radhe

,

[suchandra]

 

dear prabhu , prabhupada movement is pure because he offers the remedy , but like all the institutions on this planet , not one has risen out of political and mental war ,children were abused , women were , new members ill treated , bogus interpretations, misleading many people, when i work at the temple in soho , helping with building work , my main focus was to serve krishna , but there was so much presure to become initiated, that there was a kind of frenzy , and a lot of defending of so called gurus , to say i do not feel inspired by such gurus , people would shout aparadh, all discusions were stifled , and now after all this time , so many still saying my guru is best , i believe prabhupada wanted us all to become guru in our own right , instructing only according to realisation not above position , our duty is to always protect the devotees with trancendental knowledge, cheaters are cheated ei if i am cheated it is because my heart is not clean i can not blame others , the service i render has to come from my heart , not because i belong to an organization , and then blind myself to the faults that exist , as a builder if i were only arrogant , i would never accept fault , and in the end no one will be satisfied, iskon is pure at heart because of prabhupada not because of us we are all patients praying to be healed, and as we heal we aquire the skills to help others heal , if reults are authentic they become self evident , there is no way to hide the truth , all the devotees that have come into contact with prabhupada are part of prabhupada family , less or more is not the question for me , sincerity and a true desire to serve , high or low all service done with love is accepted, love of krishna , see in all , ie service to all , high or low , iskon is a branch of a much greater tree , if we do not as individuals water the root we as individuals leaves on that branch will not flourish , who to blame , forget blame , if something is not useful why force ourselves , krishna means the all atracting , and you can not force any one to love , all process done without love or devotion is futile, when i was in radhakund , there was so much resistance and not much freindship , if you do not fit you are nothing , so much for love, this is pure neophyte stage , a vaisnava is a friend to all , by always assisting with trancendental love , if we all begin to speak love the truth of that love will surface no matter where we are , this necter is always present , when we acting for love, with prabhupada instrutions , jai radhe

,

Thanks Seamusjcarroll, but ISKCON is not automatically Prabhupada because it was founded by Prabhupada. The process of bhakti is not to directly approach the Supreme Lord but to approach His bonafide servant - this is what ISKCON was originally meant for, to function as Prabhupada's contact point. Now, if Prabhupada's movement is not following Prabhupada and people simply dig into their own pockets, how to expect that your service is being offered to Krishna via Prabhupada by these people? Therefore Krishna Himself feels constrained to appear in this world just for this purpose, to establish devotional service which actually arrives at Krishna's Lotusfeet and not in someone else's pockets.

 

Nitai-Gaura, haribol!

 

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

 

SYNONYMS

 

yadā yadā — whenever and wherever; hi — certainly; dharmasya — of religion; glāniḥ — discrepancies; bhavati — become manifested; bhārata — O descendant of Bharata; abhyutthānam — predominance; adharmasya — of irreligion; tadā — at that time; ātmānam — self; sṛjāmi — manifest; aham — I.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself. (4.7)

 

PURPORT

 

The word sṛjāmi is significant herein. Sṛjāmi cannot be used in the sense of creation, because, according to the previous verse, there is no creation of the Lord's form or body, since all of the forms are eternally existent. Therefore, sṛjāmi means that the Lord manifests Himself as He is. Although the Lord appears on schedule, namely at the end of the Dvāpara-yuga of the twenty-eighth millennium of the seventh Manu in one day of Brahmā, He has no obligation to adhere to such rules and regulations, because He is completely free to act in many ways at His will. He therefore appears by His own will whenever there is a predominance of irreligiosity and a disappearance of true religion. Principles of religion are laid down in the Vedas, and any discrepancy in the matter of properly executing the rules of the Vedas makes one irreligious. In the Bhāgavatam it is stated that such principles are the laws of the Lord. Only the Lord can manufacture a system of religion. The Vedas are also accepted as originally spoken by the Lord Himself to Brahmā, from within his heart. Therefore, the principles of dharma, or religion, are the direct orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (dharmaḿ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [sB 6.3.19]). These principles are clearly indicated throughout the Bhagavad-gītā. The purpose of the Vedas is to establish such principles under the order of the Supreme Lord, and the Lord directly orders, at the end of the Gītā, that the highest principle of religion is to surrender unto Him only, and nothing more. The Vedic principles push one towards complete surrender unto Him; and whenever such principles are disturbed by the demoniac, the Lord appears. From the Bhāgavatam we understand that Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa who appeared when materialism was rampant and materialists were using the pretext of the authority of the Vedas. Although there are certain restrictive rules and regulations regarding animal sacrifice for particular purposes in the Vedas, people of demonic tendency still took to animal sacrifice without reference to the Vedic principles. Lord Buddha appeared to stop this nonsense and to establish the Vedic principles of nonviolence. Therefore each and every avatāra, or incarnation of the Lord, has a particular mission, and they are all described in the revealed scriptures. No one should be accepted as an avatāra unless he is referred to by scriptures. It is not a fact that the Lord appears only on Indian soil. He can manifest Himself anywhere and everywhere, and whenever He desires to appear. In each and every incarnation, He speaks as much about religion as can be understood by the particular people under their particular circumstances. But the mission is the same — to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion. Sometimes He descends personally, and sometimes He sends His bona fide representative in the form of His son, or servant, or Himself in some disguised form.

 

The principles of the Bhagavad-gītā were spoken to Arjuna, and, for that matter, to other highly elevated persons, because he was highly advanced compared to ordinary persons in other parts of the world. Two plus two equals four is a mathematical principle that is true in the beginner's arithmetic class and in the advanced class as well. Still, there are higher and lower mathematics. In all incarnations of the Lord, therefore, the same principles are taught, but they appear to be higher and lower in varied circumstances. The higher principles of religion begin with the acceptance of the four orders and the four statuses of social life, as will be explained later. The whole purpose of the mission of incarnations is to arouse Kṛṣṇa consciousness everywhere. Such consciousness is manifest and nonmanifest only under different circumstances.

[seamusjcarroll]

dear prabhu my view is that the seed of love for prabhupada present in iskon will blosom , and then chaitanyas message of bhakti will truly be released from its cage , those who are puffed up will decline , and a new burst of bhakti will accur, and the pure will rise , as yet i wait , but i believe krishna love is speeding into all of us because of prabhupada, his movment is success, because of krishna

[cbrahma]

 

dear prabhu my view is that the seed of love for prabhupada present in iskon will blosom , and then chaitanyas message of bhakti will truly be released from its cage , those who are puffed up will decline , and a new burst of bhakti will accur, and the pure will rise , as yet i wait , but i believe krishna love is speeding into all of us because of prabhupada, his movment is success, because of krishna

If they love Prabhupada they are supposed to follow his instructions. Presently ISKCON is not being run according to his manifest wishes.

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally posted By Jatayu dasa . . . Therefore, I should not make the mistake of identifying ISKCON with the actions of bad devotees but I can identify ISKCON with good devotees. Because when the good devotees first arrived, they were not good. But now that they have become good then that is the credit for ISKCON. ISKCON is meant to bring in conditioned souls suffering in the material world and make them happy by purifying their consciousness. If this does not happen then it is the fault of the individual for not taking to the program properly. To say that ISKCON is bad because there are problems within it is a grievous mistake. ISKCON is always good and will always create good devotees. . . .

 

 

I accept you as one of my many siksa gurus, therefore I will provide my wellwishes to you always--I'd also watch and guard the front door to your favorite Mandir for you.

bhaktajan

[bhaktajan]

 

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 1077753" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>cbrahma</TD><TD class=alt1>ISKCON is a business in the guise of a religion in the guise of a spiritual movement.

But the endoctrination which you have nicely provided assures that it can do no wrong.

No matter what injuries to mind, body and soul it might inflict- is my fault.

This is called a religious cult - a dangerous one.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

cbrahma is a businessman in the guise of a religionist in the guise of a spiritualist.

But the endoctrination which cbrahma has nicely provided assures us that he can do much wrong.

No matter what injuries to mind, body and soul he might inflict- is his fault.

This is called a religious cult leader - a dangerous one.

 

I love this guy's chutzpah,

Bhaktajan

[Kulapavana]

This is the language of our times:

 

Iskcon has no faults

We never fell down

We are nitya-siddhas in Goloka just having a passing bad dream....

 

 

This is where the lack of intellectual HONESTY and common sense is taking Prabhupada's movement: into the realm where you can say anything you like and make it appear true by world jugglery.

 

Everything is nothing, and nothing is everything...

 

we are worse bull-sh...ters then Buddhists

[HerServant]

I read BG As It Is for the first time in 1994 I think. At the time I was very interested in Srila Prabhupada's writings and ISKCON. I visited temples and inquired about membership in the society.

 

As I became more serious about membership (initiation) I studied ISKCON's history more thoroughly. At that time more and more information and disinformation became available via the Internet.

 

I think you have to ask, how can anyone join ISKCON after researching its history?

 

It's broken ... possibly for good.

[HerServant]

Were the deeds of Christians barbarians far more heineous than the participants of Kurukshetra? That seemed to be a question raised previously.

 

That has to be true since here is no historical evidence that Kurukshetra actually took place. Therefore, Kurukshetra is classified as "myth" by historians.

 

Not that Kurukshetra didn't really happen, just that there is not historical proof.

 

On the other hand, the Crusades have been studied in depth, and at the very least, objectively in part.

 

 

The Muslim presence in the Holy Land began with the initial Arab conquest of Palestine in the 7th century. This did not interfere much with pilgrimage to Christian holy sites or the security of monasteries and Christian communities in the Holy Land, and western Europeans were less concerned with the loss of far-away Jerusalem than, in the ensuing decades and centuries, the invasions by Muslims and other hostile non-Christians, such as the Vikings, Slavs and Magyars. However, the Muslim armies' successes put increasing pressure on the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire.

Another factor that contributed to the change in Western attitudes towards the East came in the year 1009, when the Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the Church of the Holy Sepulchre destroyed. In 1039 his successor permitted the Byzantine Empire to rebuild it. [4] Pilgrimages were allowed to the Holy Lands before and after the Sepulchre was rebuilt, but for a time pilgrims were captured and some of the clergy were killed. The Muslim conquerors eventually realized that the wealth of Jerusalem came from the pilgrims; with this realization the persecution of pilgrims stopped.[5] However, the damage was already done, and the violence of the Seljuk Turks became part of the concern that spread the passion for the Crusades. [6]

 

 

Now which are the "Christians (i.e., the one's following the teachings of Jesus) in the account below? Are the "Christians" the murderers, or are they the "local Bishops and Christians (who) made attempts to protect Jews.."?

 

 

On a popular level, the first crusades unleashed a wave of impassioned, personally felt pious Christian fury that was expressed in the massacres of Jews that accompanied the movement of the Crusader mobs through Europe, as well as the violent treatment of "schismatic" Orthodox Christians of the east. During many of the attacks on Jews, local Bishops and Christians made attempts to protect Jews from the mobs that were passing through. Jews were often offered sanctuary in churches and other Christian buildings, but the mobs broke in and killed them anyway.

see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

 

 

Before you make general statements, please understand that historical reporting can be biased. For example, would it be correct for a historian to say "Vaisnavas" cut off the heads of one another because of "their holy books" instruct them to do so?

 

 

(Navanita Cora dasa) who had followed (Jayatirtha swami) around the world for 12 years obeying his every command, sawed off his former master's head with a serrated blade.

 

Would it be correct if historians categorize all "Vaisnavas" by the following histories:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5HG80bJXu8&feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BXa6jeeq4g&feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EEOE1zB3BQ&feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2tSMTsYJ6c&feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZttnrJkTk&feature=related

 

for the complete series see: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=govinda107

 

 

So I encourage the forum participants to not start more trouble in the world by making generalizations about so called "Christians", "Jews", "Muslims", "Hindus", "Buddhists", ."Vaisnavas" .. etc.

 

There are pure devotees of God and there are the rest of us. It is better for us to try to be pure first, then critique the religious practices of others.

 

Thank you.

 

Her Servant and yours.

[Kulapavana]

 

I think you have to ask, how can anyone join ISKCON after researching its history?

 

 

It happens all the time. What helps is a very honest explanation of why these things happened. I direct a lot of people to Iskcon all the time, but I dont hide anything and dont mind honestly discussing all the unpleasant topics. The site where I write is visited by tens of thousands of people a month http://forum.vrinda.net.pl/ Quite a few of our visitors end up joining Iskcon full time, taking an Iskcon guru, or just becoming an Iskcon supporter.

[cbrahma]

 

cbrahma is a businessman in the guise of a religionist in the guise of a spiritualist.

But the endoctrination which cbrahma has nicely provided assures us that he can do much wrong.

No matter what injuries to mind, body and soul he might inflict- is his fault.

This is called a religious cult leader - a dangerous one.

 

I love this guy's chutzpah,

Bhaktajan

I'm hardly getting a business profit out of pretending to be a guru or a sadhu - I leave that up to the ISKCON hoi poloi.

And my pointing out what is endoctrination is hardly endoctrination.

I am not blaming anybody categorically for everything I might do to them.

I leave that up to the ISKCON hoi poloi.

And your shoddy attempt at throwing my words back at me is really amusing and misses by several miles.

Cult leader? Hey I would join up if that were true. Just like you buddy.

[seamusjcarroll]

DEAR PRABHU the thought of joining any of the present movements , does not appeal to my heart or intelligience ,prabhupada does not disturb me , it is the rest of us , being forced to bow and swollow , would be a lie , this situation is not favourable , due to lack of good association , but what to do , only pray for mercy , and continue serving some how , question , what does prabhupada say about the future reality of iskon , what about the 10,000 years he spoke of , are we all not engaging in our own idividual process , no guru no process , if that is the case , then my guru is prabhupada by the fact i take instruction , while instruction is also everywhere , if i choose to open my heart and mind to the world with spiritual love , if we all fight for change , intelligently , that change will take place , if we do not believe this , then we are all wasting our time , if the pure are there then they are going to have to get brave , our job is to help elevate each other by speaking the truth , silence is useless, and blah blah no use , we must open up to positive dialogue, that points us all to krishna , chaitanya's message ,bhakti can not fail ,

[HerServant]

Srila Prabhupada would have accepted this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiy3_KRKNaQ as authentic non sectarian expression of the "Sankirtan" movement.

 

ISKCON will not accept, and until it does it is not only failing, it is doomed.

[stonehearted]

I like this. I also checked out a "Shout to the Lord" video. I'd say this is sankirtan, although it's not Sri Krishna sankirtan directly. And what's with the women in uniforms? I noticed that in both videos.

 

This reminds me of going on sankirtan in Honolulu in 1970. We had our sankirtan party in Waikiki in the evenings, and Siddhasvarupa's folks had theirs at the other end of Kalakaua Ave. Then the Children of God would go out and sing Jesus songs, and I think an evangelical Jesus-people group had another party out in the evenings for a while. It was pretty wild.

[suchandra]

 

Srila Prabhupada would have accepted this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiy3_KRKNaQ as authentic non sectarian expression of the "Sankirtan" movement.

 

ISKCON will not accept, and until it does it is not only failing, it is doomed.

ISKCON - might be that we cannot classify all the devotees into one category.

 

Srila Prabhupada's Lecture, November 4, 1972, Vrindavan:

 

"Madhyama-adhikara means preacher. Unless one comes to the madhyama-adhikara, he cannot preach. So it is the duty of the spiritual master to promote the devotees from the kanistha-adhikara to the madhyama-adhikara. Not to keep them. My Guru Maharaja, sometimes he used to lament because so many disciples he had, but nobody was coming out very nice preacher."

 

As long as a Vaishnava can preach and convince others to take up Krishna Consciousness than he is considered madhyama-adhikara. So with that respect there are many devotees within ISKCON and now in other maths who are madhyama adhikara, its evident you can see it, these devotees are able to convince and inspire people to take up Krishna Consciousness. So based on Srila Prabhupada's quote, because they are able to convince these devotees they are known as madhyama adhikara and have to be adressed adequately.

[cbrahma]

 

ISKCON - might be that we cannot classify all the devotees into one category.

 

Srila Prabhupada's Lecture, November 4, 1972, Vrindavan:

 

"Madhyama-adhikara means preacher. Unless one comes to the madhyama-adhikara, he cannot preach. So it is the duty of the spiritual master to promote the devotees from the kanistha-adhikara to the madhyama-adhikara. Not to keep them. My Guru Maharaja, sometimes he used to lament because so many disciples he had, but nobody was coming out very nice preacher."

 

As long as a Vaishnava can preach and convince others to take up Krishna Consciousness than he is considered madhyama-adhikara. So with that respect there are many devotees within ISKCON and now in other maths who are madhyama adhikara, its evident you can see it, these devotees are able to convince and inspire people to take up Krishna Consciousness. So based on Srila Prabhupada's quote, because they are able to convince these devotees they are known as madhyama adhikara and have to be adressed adequately.

The current ISKCON mantra is that all you have to do is sell books and you are a preacher - cause Prabhupada is doing the preaching.

The problem with this approach is that it can simply be a pretext for making money.

The acid test must be--when these people who are 'preached to' come to the temple or in their association - are they encouraged or even acknowledged?

That has not been my experience.

[Kulapavana]

the concept where one can not be a madhyama-adhikari unless one has been a successful preacher needs to be properly understood.

 

Srila Gaurakishora Babaji did not "preach" yet people were transformed spiritually by his very presence.

 

the idea that unless one has so many disciples one is not qualified to be an acharya is very superficial. better to have one good disciple then 1000 offenders to the Vaishnavas, or 1000 disciples which turn people against Vaishnavism. better to train just a few nice Vaishnavas. quality over quantity.

 

Chairman Mao had millions of blind followers, but their legacy was simply more misery.

 

Some of the people I have met in life who call themselves followers of Prabhupada bring him no glory, and no credit. they are the ones who turned millions of people against Vaishnavism. If preaching makes real devotees then it can be called spreading the sankirtana movement. If you make pretenders and offenders, that is simply making propaganda.

[suchandra]

 

the concept where one can not be a madhyama-adhikari unless one has been a successful preacher needs to be properly understood.

 

Srila Gaurakishora Babaji did not "preach" yet people were transformed spiritually by his very presence.

 

the idea that unless one has so many disciples one is not qualified to be an acharya is very superficial. better to have one good disciple then 1000 offenders to the Vaishnavas, or 1000 disciples which turn people against Vaishnavism. better to train just a few nice Vaishnavas. quality over quantity.

 

Chairman Mao had millions of blind followers, but their legacy was simply more misery.

 

Some of the people I have met in life who call themselves followers of Prabhupada bring him no glory, and no credit. they are the ones who turned millions of people against Vaishnavism. If preaching makes real devotees then it can be called spreading the sankirtana movement. If you make pretenders and offenders, that is simply making propaganda.

 

Thanks prabhu, great post, yes, after so many earthquakes and tsunamis, who kept his faith and still chants the Holy Name? Let's pray for all the lost sheeps to come back!

[mahak]

there is no fault. Not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of krsna. It may nopt be perfect, but if Srimati Tulasi devi grows on the premises, then Krsna can be understood to be present. If the chanting of the holy names takes place on their properties, we must see that as faultless.

 

All life is hard, happiness comes from lightening up, becoming aloof, wishins others well, etc. hARE Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thanks for the reminder, Mahaksa-ji!!

 

 

there is no fault. Not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of krsna. It may nopt be perfect, but if Srimati Tulasi devi grows on the premises, then Krsna can be understood to be present. If the chanting of the holy names takes place on their properties, we must see that as faultless.

 

All life is hard, happiness comes from lightening up, becoming aloof, wishins others well, etc. hARE Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[krsna]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

the concept where one can not be a madhyama-adhikari unless one has been a successful preacher needs to be properly understood.

Srila Gaurakishora Babaji did not "preach" yet people were transformed spiritually by his very presence.

the idea that unless one has so many disciples one is not qualified to be an acharya is very superficial. better to have one good disciple then 1000 offenders to the Vaishnavas, or 1000 disciples which turn people against Vaishnavism. better to train just a few nice Vaishnavas. quality over quantity.

Chairman Mao had millions of blind followers, but their legacy was simply more misery.

Some of the people I have met in life who call themselves followers of Prabhupada bring him no glory, and no credit. they are the ones who turned millions of people against Vaishnavism. If preaching makes real devotees then it can be called spreading the sankirtana movement. If you make pretenders and offenders, that is simply making propaganda.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

kula tells it like it is.

soooo heavy.

but the truth is the truth!