Fall Down Theory is Correct!

[tackleberry]

Why do most people have a problem accepting the "fall down" theory, when it can be explained quite easily. OTOH, the opposite cannot be explained with logic and shastra.

 

Every jiva is dreaming this material world, which is similar to a king dreaming he's a beggar. In reality, the king is not a beggar, but the intensity of the dream is so strong that he IS a beggar for all practical purposes. Likewise, every jiva is nitya siddha, but maya is so powerful he's also a badha jiva (even though, technically, he's not).

 

Obviously, this puts an end to the apparent contradiction as to how a jiva can be both, or whether there can be a fall down. Fall down IS and ISN'T, going by the dream analogy.

 

So simple and easy to understand. Why can't people accept this, instead of fighting over this like petty minded people?

[Beggar]

 

"Fall Down" Theory is Correct!

 

Fall down from where?

 

 

 

 

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has stated:

 

 

 

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. purport, 3.16.26)

 

 

 

 

Srila Sridhar Deva Goswami Maharaja stated as follows:

 

 

"The

brahma-jyoti,

the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite

jiva

souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the

brahma-jyoti,

and a pencil of a ray of the

brahma-jyoti

is the

jiva

. The

jiva

soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the

brahma-jyoti

is a product of an infinite number of

jiva

atoms.

 

"Generally, souls emanate from the

brahma-jyoti

which is living and growing. Within the

brahma-jyoti

, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the

jiva

is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

 

"Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective -- there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself." (Sri Krsna - Reality the Beautiful, ch-4, Origin of the Soul)

 

[tackleberry]

 

Fall down from where?

 

 

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has stated:

 

 

 

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. purport, 3.16.26)

 

 

 

It's the same thing, only the wording is different. From the standpoint of an awakened jiva, there's no fall down. But to the jiva who's dreaming, 'fall down' is as real to him/her, as a tiger is real to a dreamer.

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

 

It's the same thing, only the wording is different. From the standpoint of an awakened jiva, there's no fall down. But to the jiva who's dreaming, 'fall down' is as real to him/her, as a tiger is real to a dreamer.

 

 

But then you are contradicting Srila Sridhar Maharaj's words. Are you proposing the Sleeper-Vada theory that we are really in Goloka, only LITERALLY dreaming that we are in the material world? In your view where is the location (loka) that the jiva is dreaming from?

[Inedible]

There is no time or location that the jiva is dreaming from. Those qualities are part of dreaming.

 

Besides that, the dreaming thing is just a metaphor. You could even say that the internal dialogue everyone complains about is dreaming that you can wake up from.

[bhaktajan]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

Fall down from where?

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has stated:

 

 

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. purport, 3.16.26)

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

 

 

 

 

It's the same thing, only the wording is different. From the standpoint of an awakened jiva, there's no fall down. But to the jiva who's dreaming, 'fall down' is as real to him/her, as a tiger is real to a dreamer.

 

 

 

 

What is overlooked is that Vaikuntha is with out transient TIME.

Eternity does not have 'passing time' therefore when we revive of original position --only a fleeting moment has passed-- so after taking unlimited births, since time-immemorial, in the 'created material cosmos' we shall revive [awaken] to the same place and krsna-lila we were last involve with. So we have 'fallen' and yet simultaneously never left.

[it's like a Swiss bank account where no transactions occurred till finally a desendent is notified of unclaimed inheritences from ---before the War]

 

What say you,

bhaktajan

[Beggar]

 

 

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has stated:

 

 

 

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. purport, 3.16.26)

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

If we originally came from the brahmajyoti then it's not really a fall down, since that is not the optimal position to begin with.

in the bhramajyoti? How did we get there? Because from there fall down is inevitable.

[Beggar]

 

If we originally came from the brahmajyoti then it's not really a fall down, since that is not the optimal position to begin with.

in the bhramajyoti? How did we get there? Because from there fall down is inevitable.

 

Srila Sridhar Deva Goswami Maharaja stated as follows:

 

 

 

"The

brahma-jyoti,

the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite

jiva

souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the

brahma-jyoti,

and a pencil of a ray of the

brahma-jyoti

is the

jiva

. The

jiva

soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the

brahma-jyoti

is a product of an infinite number of

jiva

atoms.

 

"Generally, souls emanate from the

brahma-jyoti

which is living and growing. Within the

brahma-jyoti

, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow.

And because the jiva

is conscious it is endowed with

free will

. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

[Vedesu]

 

If we originally came from the brahmajyoti then it's not really a fall down, since that is not the optimal position to begin with. in the bhramajyoti? How did we get there? Because from there fall down is inevitable.

 

This is yet another area where the sleepervada argument falls to pieces. If falldown from the Brahmajyoti is inevitable, which is true, then where do those entities fall to? You can't say to the material world, because you've already argued that there is no material world, that it isn't real. Another point: since there is no form or activity to speak of in the Brahmajyoti, then there's no question of sleeping. You need a body to sleep. You need senses to daydream. So, according to your theory (and that's all it is, a theory, completely unfounded based upon the criteria of Guru, Sastra, Sadhu) you are unwittingly insinuating a hypothesis wherein Brahmajyoti realization may be higher than Bhagavan realization. Basically you're proposing that "pure" souls (bazillions of them) will have nightmares which seemingly last for an eternity while living in Goloka Vrndavana, totally unprotected by Krsna's grace (despite his vow in the Bhagavada Gita) yet the souls in the Brahmajyoti do not experience these same nightmares, being that they are formless, senseless, and to boot: there is no material realm to fall down to to begin with.

 

Again, unwittingly, this sleepervada preaching is simply covered impersonalism, mayavada. Who in their right mind would want to go to Goloka Vrndavana if that is the realm of horrific nightmares and seemingly eternal suffering and damnation?

[gHari]

<center>What a fool!

 

I can't

Believe

I fell

For this

Bag of bones,

Mucus and stool.

 

Again!

 

</center>

[cbrahma]

 

 

This is yet another area where the sleepervada argument falls to pieces. If falldown from the Brahmajyoti is inevitable, which is true, then where do those entities fall to? You can't say to the material world, because you've already argued that there is no material world, that it isn't real. Another point: since there is no form or activity to speak of in the Brahmajyoti, then there's no question of sleeping. You need a body to sleep. You need senses to daydream. So, according to your theory (and that's all it is, a theory, completely unfounded based upon the criteria of Guru, Sastra, Sadhu) you are unwittingly insinuating a hypothesis wherein Brahmajyoti realization may be higher than Bhagavan realization. Basically you're proposing that "pure" souls (bazillions of them) will have nightmares which seemingly last for an eternity while living in Goloka Vrndavana, totally unprotected by Krsna's grace (despite his vow in the Bhagavada Gita) yet the souls in the Brahmajyoti do not experience these same nightmares, being that they are formless, senseless, and to boot: there is no material realm to fall down to to begin with.

 

Again, unwittingly, this sleepervada preaching is simply covered impersonalism, mayavada. Who in their right mind would want to go to Goloka Vrndavana if that is the realm of horrific nightmares and seemingly eternal suffering and damnation?

That is not my position at all. I don't know about the 'sleeping' sickness.

The point is that constitutionally a jiva is qualitatively divine and quantitatively infinitesimal. What is this 'diffirentiation'? Differentiate from what. What is a qualitatively divine being doing in an impersonal state originally?

[gHari]

So one might ask "Why does Krsna have an external energy anyway"?

 

That answer may give an insight into the nature of the consciousness that exists twix the internal and external energies.

[Inedible]

I'm quoting here from Ashtavakra Gita A New English Translation by Bart Marshall:

 

 

 

1.11

It is true what they say, “You are what you think.”

If you think you are bound you are bound.

If you think you are free you are free.

1.12

You are Self—the solitary Witness.

You are perfect, all-pervading, One.

You are free, desireless, forever still.

The universe is but a seeming in You.

1.13

Meditate on this: “I am awareness alone—Unity itself.”

Give up the idea that you are separate, a person,

that there is within and without.

1.14

You have long been bound, thinking, “I am a person.”

Let the knowledge, “I am awareness alone,”

be the sword that frees you.

 

 

[gHari]

Now that is inedible, new-age ooga-booga.

[Inedible]

 

Now that is inedible, new-age ooga-booga.

 

Do you mean it is a bad translation or that it is not an authentic Gita?

[Kulapavana]

 

Do you mean it is a bad translation or that it is not an authentic Gita?

 

Asthavakra Gita is an Advaitin text from post-Shankara times. It has nothing to do with Bhagavad-gita and is most certainly not a Vaishnava scripture regardless of the sampradaya

[gHari]

Do you mean it is a bad translation or that it is not an authentic Gita?

I meant 'inedible', for me at least.

[Svarupa]

 

Why do most people have a problem accepting the "fall down" theory, when it can be explained quite easily. OTOH, the opposite cannot be explained with logic and shastra.

 

Every jiva is dreaming this material world, which is similar to a king dreaming he's a beggar. In reality, the king is not a beggar, but the intensity of the dream is so strong that he IS a beggar for all practical purposes. Likewise, every jiva is nitya siddha, but maya is so powerful he's also a badha jiva (even though, technically, he's not).

 

Obviously, this puts an end to the apparent contradiction as to how a jiva can be both, or whether there can be a fall down. Fall down IS and ISN'T, going by the dream analogy.

 

So simple and easy to understand. Why can't people accept this, instead of fighting over this like petty minded people?

Quote:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 0.25in; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

The individual living entity can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti, or of the Maya Sakti.

However, regardless of this fact, the living entities full potential expression is perpetually found within the eternal presents of Goloka as their endless body serving Krishna.

We, the living entities, express ourselves there in our full potential in <st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place"> they are eternally. Always being aware of their nitya siddha eternal identity.

</font""><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s service eternally. </st1:place></st1:place>

It is there in Goloka or Vaikuntha, the individual living entity is who she really is in the perpetual ‘present’, as ‘their’ endless nitya siddha identity, personality, individuality serving in Krishna's Lila's.

The living entity is the marginal potency of the Lord known as the jiva-tattva, that is 'eternally established' in their full potential as nitya siddha in an eternal loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka, or in a perpetual loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in the Vaikunthas.

However, being the individual living entities ,or marginal potencies of the Lord, also means they all have a choice, and can also enter the material creation or mahat-tattva if they choose, as their nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition.

It is there in the material creation, the living entities are covered by the mahat-tattva's material energy however, the living entities are not a product of matter, they only are covered by matter in the form of ethereal and biological bodily containers provided by Maha-Vishnu

The living entities can therefore use their free will to choose and remain under the dominion of the Cit Sakti, as the endless servant of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> they are eternally. Always being aware of their nitya siddha eternal identity.

Or the living entities can come under the influence of the Maya Sakti as their temporary non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious nitya baddha dreaming condition.

The living entity in this nitya-baddha condition can only be covered by Maya's s'akti or material vessels within the mahat-tattva.

All material bodies are provided by the wife of Maha-Vishnu in order for the living entity to seek out their mistaken desires that are part of Maya's s'akti's or her control over the material energy.

No individual living entity can originate from the lifeless mahat-tattva.

The living entities can only visit the material creation and be covered by material bodies, provided and facilitated by Maha-Vishnu.

The living entities eternal nitya-siddha bodily personality has different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down.

In fact most the living entities NEVER allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by the non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious 'dream state' or the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some living entities however, 'imagine', 'think' or 'dream' they, do while most never enter the nitya baddha world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

Due to the free will every marginal living entity has, each can choose to either remain in the 'eternal present' of Goloka or Vaikuntha as who they really are serving Krishna, or they can imagine, think, dream or visualize a world of their own without Krishna. That world they visualise is provided by Krishna via His Maha-Vishnu expansion and is called the mahat-tattva.

 

While in the mahat-tattva the living entity dreams of so many different bodies, some are enjoyable while others are nightmarish. Such illusional realities, that are real but temporary, only occur within the mahat-tattva however, it is a fact that while we are dreaming within the mahat-tattva, we are actually ALWAYS in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

As Srila Prabhupada says - "We are actually never fallen, we only 'dream' or 'think' we are fallen". That dream state is called the nitya-baddha and it is that 'consciousness' that experiences the temporary pains, nightmares and pleasures while the living entity continues to forget Krishna and who 'we' really are, which is nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna eternally.

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha.

 

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

-------

Hare Krishna All the above is actually quotes from 'The sercret Book of Origins' that is being published in Feb 2008

[Beggar]

'The sercret Book of Origins' that is being published in Feb 2008 by His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Paripasleepervadacarya astotara sata Sri Srimad Ramai Swami under the pen name Sarva gattah.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Why do most people have a problem accepting the "fall down" theory, when it can be explained quite easily. OTOH, the opposite cannot be explained with logic and shastra.

 

Every jiva is dreaming this material world, which is similar to a king dreaming he's a beggar. In reality, the king is not a beggar, but the intensity of the dream is so strong that he IS a beggar for all practical purposes. Likewise, every jiva is nitya siddha, but maya is so powerful he's also a badha jiva (even though, technically, he's not).

 

Obviously, this puts an end to the apparent contradiction as to how a jiva can be both, or whether there can be a fall down. Fall down IS and ISN'T, going by the dream analogy.

 

So simple and easy to understand. Why can't people accept this, instead of fighting over this like petty minded people?

 

The answer to this question is complicated. Some just cannot comprehend what Srila Prabhupada revealed to us, others like Beggar, Guruvani, siva and co are confused, angry and often very malicious because they can never shastrically prove that Srila Prabhupada never said we did not came down from Goloka, in fact the evidence is very clear - he said we are all originally from Vaikuntha.

In fact constantly posting threads that we originated from Goloka only causes them to become even more confused, frustrated, angry, and offensive because they cannot prove that Prabhupada did not say we all originally came down from Vaikuntha – which they will never prove because the fact is, our eternal home IS Goloka and always has been.

Others, on the other hand cannot agree with us because it would be going against the teachings of their guru maharaja. If they even contemplated that all jiva souls, not only originate from Goloka, but are always there in Goloka, even if visualising (dreaming) a world of their own in the mahat-tattva, such followers would be contradicting the teachings of their Guru, Narayana Maharaj or Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, who tells them they originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and they have NEVER been to Goloka or Vakuntha.

It is because their guru maharaj tells them they have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, based on their interpretation of previous Acharyas and their often dubious translations from Sanskrit and Bengali into English, they have convinced themselves and their followers of an Impersonal origin. Srila Prabhupada rejected such impersonal ideas because his teachings clearly tell us, we have all came down from Goloka some millions of years ago.

So instead of arguing, just get on with the preaching message of Lord Caitanya, go on street Sankirtan every few days. Chant Hare Krishna and give out Prabhupada’s books

As time moves on in this century, a polarization will happen that will see the two camps of Vaishnava’s move in separate directions, it is already happening – Those who know we came down from Goloka, and those who foolishly choose to believe we originated from impersonal Brahmajyoti and have never been to Goloka or Vaikuntha, will gradually move in different directions.

[cbrahma]

This topic quickly shows up the deep divisions that exist in the Vaisnava society. Especially the way it is handled by those who disagree with the fall-down doctrine.

 

Theologically it makes no sense that our constitutional position is impersonal brahman. That we originate from undifferentiated spirit. That's the Sankaracarya doctrine and is impersonal by definition. How does that situate us as even santa rasa?

 

Though it seems unlikely that anybody in Vaikuntha would fall down, to insists that one can't is to deny free will.

[Beggar]

 

...our eternal home IS Goloka and always has been.

 

The ISKCON devotee, Kundali Prabhu, who was commisssioned by the GBC to write a book on this subject wrote that Goloka is the jiva's home but that the baddha jiva is like a child of a king who was born in a foreign land and has never been with his Father after being born. The Kingdom in his original home is his rightful inheritance, but he must go back home to claim it.

 

 

Others, on the other hand cannot agree with us because it would be going against the teachings of their guru maharaja. If they even contemplated that all jiva souls, not only originate from Goloka, but are always there in Goloka, even if visualising (dreaming) a world of their own in the mahat-tattva, such followers would be contradicting the teachings of their Guru, Narayana Maharaj or Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, who tells them they originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and they have NEVER been to Goloka or Vakuntha.

You forgot to include Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Jiva Goswami, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur and all other previous acaryas.

 

 

It is because their guru maharaj tells them they have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, based on their interpretation of previous Acharyas and their often dubious translations from Sanskrit and Bengali into English, they have convinced themselves and their followers of an Impersonal origin.

 

No ISKCON scholars who actually know sanskrit and/or Bengali have ever alledged that there were "dubious" interpretations including the late Kusakrata Prabhu, who secretely (he had to be secret) understood what Srila Sridhar Maharaj was explaining). The only thing that is dubious are such rumors of dubious "Gaudiya Math interpretations" that surfaced in ISKCON in the late 1960s without any basis except in the fertile imaginations of some extremely neophyte devotees. The tatastha sakti itself is generated directly by the Lord, and the jiva's are generated by the tatastha sakti therefore there is nothing impersonal about the jiva's origins. The only reason Srila Prabhupada used the term "impersonal brahman" was to discourage persons from thinking that merging with brahman is the ultimate goal, which it is not. The allegation that there is something "impersonal" about what Srila Sridhar Maharaj has said about the jiva's origins is unfounded and no explanation or quotes of any kind are ever given to back up such an outrageous idea. Consequently such assertions are just sentiment because they are not really based on philosophy but rather blind following of concocted ideas.

So instead of arguing, just get on with the preaching message of Lord Caitanya, go on street Sankirtan every few days. Chant Hare Krishna and give out Prabhupada’s books.

 

Srama eva hi kevalam. If one offends real Vaisnavas, like the person Srila Prabhupada wrote was his siksa guru then all their so-called devotional activites will be destroyed by such an offense.

[Beggar]

 

 

Though it seems unlikely that anybody in Vaikuntha would fall down, to insists that one can't is to deny free will.

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.6

 

na tad bhāsayate sūryo

na śaśāńko na pāvakaḥ

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaḿ mama

 

SYNONYMS

 

na — not; tat — that; bhāsayate — illuminates; sūryaḥ — the sun; na — nor; śaśāńkaḥ — the moon; na — nor; pāvakaḥ — fire, electricity; yat — where; gatvā — going; na — never; nivartante — they come back; tat dhāma — that abode; paramam — supreme; mama — My.

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Though it seems unlikely that anybody in Vaikuntha would fall down, to insists that one can't is to deny free will.

 

What you have written is what Srila Prabhupada has said. The majority of living entities never come down to the material creation however, for those few who do, Krishna, through His Maha-Vishnu expansion, allows them to try and find happyness in the maha-tattva. However, the mahat-tattva is also where Krishna, through His many Vishnu expansions, comes to perform Lila, there is no killing demons in Goloka, only rumours, but there is the killing of demons within the mahat-tattva.

 

For this reason the mahat-tattva was not created only for the souls who wanted to express their free will, by choosing to pursue their desires and thoughts that do not include Krishna, it was created so Krishna, via His Vishnu expansions, could engage in His pastimes with His devotees, like actually killing the many demons that disturbed His devotees.

 

The mahat-tattva was originally created because Krishna wants to perform His pastimes with His devotee's.