Fall Down Theory is Correct!

[Sarva gattah]

 

Others, on the other hand cannot agree with us because it would be going against the teachings of their guru maharaja. If they even contemplated that all jiva souls, not only originate from Goloka, but are always there in Goloka, even if visualising (dreaming) a world of their own in the mahat-tattva, such followers would be contradicting the teachings of their Guru, Narayana Maharaj or Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, who tells them they originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and they have NEVER been to Goloka or Vakuntha.

 

NOW READ CARFULLY

 

It is because their guru maharaj tells them they have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, based on their interpretation of previous Acharyas and their often dubious translations from Sanskrit and Bengali into English, they have convinced themselves and their followers of an Impersonal origin.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected such impersonal ideas because his teachings clearly tell us, we have all came down from Goloka some millions of years ago.

[cbrahma]

Prabhupada himself uses the phrase 'fall down' a number of times.

He has often used the term 'original' in regards to our origins in the spiritual word.

The process of bhakti is a process of remembering because of our 'forgetfullness' of our 'original' position with Krsna in the spiritual world.

 

This is the basic siddhanta of the bhakti marga - to revive our original consciousness---

If we come from Brahman how is 'remembering' supposed to get us to Vaikuntha in our ETERNAL svarupa?

There would be nothing to remember.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.20.37]

[Purport] Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is all-spiritual, He can descend from the spiritual sky without changing His body, and thus He is known as acyuta, or infallible. When a living entity falls down to the material world, however, he has to accept a material body, and therefore, in his material embodiment, he cannot be called acyuta. Because he falls down from his real engagement in the service of the Lord, the living entity gets a material body to suffer or try to enjoy in the miserable material conditions of life. Therefore the fallen living entity is cyuta, whereas the Lord is called acyuta.

 

The heat of the debate is due to the fact that some of the Math gurus are seeming to contradict what Prabhupada said. Even Prabhupada himself seems to do so.

But rather than being disturbed by such apparent contradictions isn't it more important to follow the process of self-realization according to the degree of our faith?

[Sarva gattah]

 

As time moves on in this century, a polarization will happen that will see the two or more camps of Vaishnava’s and those claiming to be Vaishnavas, move in separate directions,

 

It is already happening!

 

There are those who know we came down from Goloka.

 

And those who foolishly choose to believe we originated from impersonal Brahmajyoti, preaching their impersonal belief we have never been to Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Each camp will gradually move in different directions.

 

So instead of arguing, just get on with the preaching message of Lord Caitanya, go on street Sankirtan every few days. Chant Hare Krishna and give out Prabhupada’s books.

 

The Books, lectures, letters and morning walk discussions Srila Prabhupada has given us far out weigh any pioneering growing pains His movement has gone through. Look at where we have come from, born out of the mid 20th century in the most violent century of abuses in modern recorded history.

 

No-one can go from kindergarden to university over night, similarly, if we want to understand Krishna consciousness, then stop being karmis, chant at least 16 rounds a day, go to the Temple and greet the Dieties, make a humble offering, eat Prasad, dance around Tulsi and offer prayers to the Spiritual Master.

 

And everyone you meet, make sure they walk away thinking of Krishna.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:presented by cbrahma

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.20.37]

[Purport] Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is all-spiritual, He can descend from the spiritual sky without changing His body, and thus He is known as acyuta, or infallible. When a living entity falls down to the material world, however, he has to accept a material body, and therefore, in his material embodiment, he cannot be called acyuta. Because he falls down from his real engagement in the service of the Lord, the living entity gets a material body to suffer or try to enjoy in the miserable material conditions of life. Therefore the fallen living entity is cyuta, whereas the Lord is called acyuta.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Beggar]

 

...The heat of the debate is due to the fact that some of the Math gurus are seeming to contradict what Prabhupada said. Even Prabhupada himself seems to do so.

But rather than being disturbed by such apparent contradictions isn't it more important to follow the process of self-realization according to the degree of our faith?

[seamusjcarroll]

ecstatic arousal eternal presence non comprehension no doubt , i believe we are in a race to come back to the present , while remembering krishna , forgetfullness is fall down , this world is a dim reflection , of the spiritual , and that which is jiva atma is eternally atached to paramatma , the rest material time and space

[Beggar]

The Sleeper-Vadis refuse to answer several questions that I have posed over the last six months. My main question is, If the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the Lord and that effulgence comes from Bhagavan Himself and the brahmajyoti is made up of innumerable living entities or jivas then how is this some sort of impersonal description? What exactly is impersonal about this? The Fall and Sleeper-Vadis cannot even begin to answer this question. If this was a college debate they would be summarily defeated on this point alone.

 

 

This is the basic siddhanta of the bhakti marga - to revive our original consciousness---

If we come from Brahman how is 'remembering' supposed to get us to Vaikuntha in our ETERNAL svarupa?

There would be nothing to remember.

 

The jiva soul is infinitesimal brahman and is coming from infinite brahman which is the effulgence of Bhagavan. When Krsna actually appears before a bhakta in this world, material time is suspended because Krsna's swarupa exists in eternity. The devotee then fully "remembers" Krsna. This is acintya or inconceivable. This material existence is like a dream. There is no difference on these points although in order to obfuscate the situation the Sleeper-Vadis will not admit that I am even writing these lines.

Siddhanta means devotional conclusions but siddhanta is also like theological canon in Christian history. We currently reside in the world of mundane relativity even though we may have a connection, ever so slight with our guru parampara. Siddhanta must harmonize all opposites and contradictions as the real Gaudiya Siddhanta does. The Sleeper-Vadi apasiddhanta fails because it does not take into consideration all the possibilities raised by different aspects of the Krsna Consciousness philosophy. Sleeper-Vada us an outgrowth of a series of misconceptions that developed amongst Srila Prabhupada's early disciples in the late 1960s and evolved into a social anartha that has plagued formal and informal ISKCON for forty years. The Sleeper-Vadis are reactionaries of the most base and crude type, they and their cohorts are a threat to the very survival of ISKCON in the western world.

[cbrahma]

 

The Sleeper-Vadis refuse to answer several questions that I have posed over the last six months. My main question is, If the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the Lord and that effulgence comes from Bhagavan Himself and the brahmajyoti is made up of innumerable living entities or jivas then how is this some sort of impersonal description? What exactly is impersonal about this? The Fall and Sleeper-Vadis cannot even begin to answer this question. If this was a college debate they would be summarily defeated on this point alone.

 

The jiva soul is infinitesimal brahman and is coming from infinite brahman which is the effulgence of Bhagavan. When Krsna actually appears before a bhakta in this world, material time is suspended because Krsna's swarupa exists in eternity. The devotee then fully "remembers" Krsna. This is acintya or inconceivable. This material existence is like a dream. There is no difference on these points although in order to obfuscate the situation the Sleeper-Vadis will not admit that I am even writing these lines.

Siddhanta means devotional conclusions but siddhanta is also like theological canon in Christian history. We currently reside in the world of mundane relativity even though we may have a connection, ever so slight with our guru parampara. Siddhanta must harmonize all opposites and contradictions as the real Gaudiya Siddhanta does. The Sleeper-Vadi apasiddhanta fails because it does not take into consideration all the possibilities raised by different aspects of the Krsna Consciousness philosophy. Sleeper-Vada us an outgrowth of a series of misconceptions that developed amongst Srila Prabhupada's early disciples in the late 1960s and evolved into a social anartha that has plagued formal and informal ISKCON for forty years. The Sleeper-Vadis are reactionaries of the most base and crude type, they and their cohorts are a threat to the very survival of ISKCON in the western world.

What you are supposedly asking as a question along with your loaded cynical labelling "Sleepervadi", is more of a theological treatise on the nature of the brahmajyoti than a sincere inquiry.

 

How could anybody think brahman realization is impersonal?

 

 

So throughout the Gita personal devotion to Krsna is recommended as the highest form of spiritual realization. Yet there are those who are still attracted to Krsna's impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence, which is the all-pervasive aspect of the Absolute Truth and which is unmanifest and beyond the reach of the senses. Arjuna would like to know which of these two types of transcendentalists is more perfect in knowledge. In other words, he is clarifying his own position because he is attached to the personal form of Krsna. He is not attached to the impersonal Brahman. He wants to know whether his position is secure. The impersonal manifestation, either in this material world or in the spiritual world of the Supreme Lord, is a problem for meditation. Actually one cannot perfectly conceive of the impersonal feature of the Absolute Truth. Therefore Arjuna wants to say, "What is the use of such a waste of time?" from the purport to

 

<CENTER>Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation</CENTER>

 

TEXT 66

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

What you are supposedly asking as a question along with your loaded cynical labelling "Sleepervadi", is more of a theological treatise on the nature of the brahmajyoti than a sincere inquiry.

How could anybody think brahman realization is impersonal?

 

Time to put on your thinking cap. Brahman realization IS impersonal. But stating that the jiva soul is manifested from the effulgence of the Lord IS NOT IMPERSONAL. See if you can even prove that it is theorectically true.

[Beggar]

 

But stating that the jiva soul is manifested from the effulgence of the Lord IS NOT IMPERSONAL.

A. Saying that we come from the brahmajyoti is impersonal.

B. But if the brahmajyoti comes from Krsna, and is His effulgence then it is

not really impersonal.

A. Yes it is!

B. How is that?

A. It just is. That's good enough for me, It just is and I don't care what anyone says!

B. We are not saying that the goal is to merge in the brahmajyoti for that is anti-devotional.

A. I don't care about what you say, you are an impersonalist.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

My main question is, If the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the Lord and that effulgence comes from Bhagavan Himself and the brahmajyoti is made up of innumerable living entities or jivas then how is this some sort of impersonal description? What exactly is impersonal about this?

 

Still waiting for an answer? My advice is, don't hold your breath.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I can't stomach these discussions any more. In whizzing through this thread (while holding my nose), I came across this:

 

 

As time moves on in this century, a polarization will happen that will see the two camps of Vaishnava’s move in separate directions, it is already happening – Those who know we came down from Goloka, and those who foolishly choose to believe we originated from impersonal Brahmajyoti and have never been to Goloka or Vaikuntha, will gradually move in different directions.

 

Talking about "two camps of Vaishnava's [sic]" displays a superficial mentality. For the Vaishnava (do I even need to say "real" Vaishnava?), there are no camps.

[stonehearted]

 

Still waiting for an answer? My advice is, don't hold your breath.

Ditto, because there is no answer. He/they will simply mischaracterize what you've written yet again. It's a futile conversation.