Acintya-bhedabheda-tattva

[sanatana]

Lord Chaitanya said, " Your constitutional position is that you are pure living soul. This material body can`t be identified with your real self: nor is your mind your real identity, nor your intelligence, nor false ego. Your identity is that of eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord Krishna. Since you are between matter and spirit, your position is marginal. Belonging to the marginal potency of Krishna, you are simultaneously one with and different from Krishna. Because you are spirit, Krishna and you are no different. Because you are only a minute particle of Krishna, you differ from Him." ( Teachings of Lord Chaitanya , Chapter III, page 55 )

 

Can anyone in this forum explain to me this teaching of Lord Chaitanya to Sanatana Goswami? I want to be enlightened, please...

[gHari]

Let me lighten your burden, enlighten you. God exists, and everything and everyone else rely on His existence as He explains in the Bhagavad-gita 7.7:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>mattaH parataraM nAnyat

kiJcid asti dhanaJjaya

mayi sarvam idaM protaM

sUtre maNi-gaNA iva

</CENTER>

mattaH--beyond Me; para-taram--superior; na--not; anyat kiJcit--anything else; asti--there is; dhanaJjaya--O conqueror of wealth; mayi--in Me; sarvam--all that be; idam--which we see; protam--is strung; sUtre--on a thread; maNi-gaNAH--pearls; iva--like.

<B></FONT>

O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.</b></blockquote>

[sanatana]

 

Let me lighten your burden, enlighten you. God exists, and everything and everyone else rely on His existence as He explains in the Bhagavad-gita 7.7:

 

<CENTER>

mattaH parataraM nAnyat

kiJcid asti dhanaJjaya

mayi sarvam idaM protaM

sUtre maNi-gaNA iva

</CENTER>

mattaH--beyond Me; para-taram--superior; na--not; anyat kiJcit--anything else; asti--there is; dhanaJjaya--O conqueror of wealth; mayi--in Me; sarvam--all that be; idam--which we see; protam--is strung; sUtre--on a thread; maNi-gaNAH--pearls; iva--like.

O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

 

 

Is Krishna the God you`re referring to in that verse?

[gHari]

Is Krishna the God you`re referring to in that verse?

Yes, Krsna, God is speaking - He is the 'Me'.

[sanatana]

 

Yes, Krsna, God is speaking - He is the 'Me'.

 

Tell me if Krishna and me are simultaneously one and yet different is true. If yes, then why am I poor materially? Krishna is rich. He owns everything! If Krishna and me are one, why can`t I be rich like Him? Why did Krishna favor Bill Gates the billionaire instead of me? Bill Gates doesn`t chant Hare Krishna. Because if he did, he should have shared his wealth to the Hare Krishna foundation and aid those Hare Krishna devotees. You see, I need to buy medicines for my ailing body. I want to live longer so I can spread Krishna consciousness to everyone. I just can`t understand this teaching of Lord Chaitanya that Krishna and me are simultaneously one and yet are different.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I just can`t understand this teaching of Lord Chaitanya that Krishna and me are simultaneously one and yet are different.

 

That's right. You never will. Acintya means "inconceivable".

[theist]

 

Lord Chaitanya said, " Your constitutional position is that you are pure living soul. This material body can`t be identified with your real self: nor is your mind your real identity, nor your intelligence, nor false ego. Your identity is that of eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord Krishna. Since you are between matter and spirit, your position is marginal. Belonging to the marginal potency of Krishna, you are simultaneously one with and different from Krishna. Because you are spirit, Krishna and you are no different. Because you are only a minute particle of Krishna, you differ from Him." ( Teachings of Lord Chaitanya , Chapter III, page 55 )

 

Can anyone in this forum explain to me this teaching of Lord Chaitanya to Sanatana Goswami? I want to be enlightened, please...

We can know. Transcendental knowledge is understood by those that have transcended.

 

But the material conditioned intelligence will never be able get it within it's grasp.

 

So for now we grapple with it understanding it only a little. Enough so that we can see there is more then total oneness with the Lord as the Advaitins say and more than total separation as some dualists say.

 

We can see the principle clearly in Christ's sayings. He said "I and the Father are one.If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." He also said, "The Father is greater than I am."

 

Oneness and difference.

 

No way to explain any better than what you have quoted from TLC. We can treat that quote as a meditation that if Krsna is pleased with us He will let us enter in to the mystery of it's truth.

 

IOW through grace from within. Not likely all at once. More likely like the gradual unfolding of a flower.

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

 

 

In many places in Srimad-Bhagavatam,we find Lord Brahma, the creator of the universe, being tested by Krsna. And still, Brahma is our gurudeva.He is the original guru of our line. That he could become bewildered is so perplexing and difficult to understand that Madhvacarya eliminated that section from the Srimad-Bhagavatam. He could not accept those two chapters of Srimad-Bhagavatamwhere Brahma was under illusion, where he had some misunderstanding about Krsna. But Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepted everything in toto.

This is a very peculiar thing. How can the original guru of our sampradaya become bewildered about Krsna? It is, inconceivable. Still, everything is intelligible through the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, "inconceivable oneness and difference." How can we accommodate that our original guru becomes perplexed, not only once, but twice? That is lila, a divine pastime. An example of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva is found in the way Krsna deals with his devotees. Krsna himself is independent of everything. Still, sometimes he shows himself to be completely subordinate to his servants and must do whatever they want him to. Then again, sometimes he completely ignores them. These are the spontaneous pastimes of the Sweet Absolute. Sometimes He shows absolute submission to Srimati Radharani, and again, sometimes he ignores her. This is the very nature of Krsna's lila.

God works wonders. His ways are filled with miracles. We should be prepared for that. We should be prepared that all the knowledge of this world, all our experience, will prove to be wrong. So it is said, jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva: Be clear of your past experiences, what you have drawn from the world of the senses, empirical knowledge (pratyaksa-jnana). Your tendency will always be to try to push your way into the transcendental world on the strength of mundane knowledge. But this verse is saying, "You fallen people, your capital is the experience of this world, of the senses. But it won't do, it won't have any value in that higher plane. What is found there is a new thing, so approach that world with an open mind; understand that everything is possible with the infinite. All your expectations, your past experience, has no value. Why don't you give up trying to dodge this point?"

The transcendental world is something quite new to us. It is very difficult to get out of this superstition of so-called "truth" here. But still it is necessary that we accept that anything and everything is possible with God. He is the master of impossibilities. Possibility and impossibility are found only in our dictionary, yet even Napoleon wanted to remove the word "impossible." He said, "impossible' is a word in a fool's dictionary."

How are we to understand that the original guru of our sampradaya becomes bewildered? It is "impossible." We must suspend our "knowledge" (jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva). We may take it that Krsna is playing hide and seek, perhaps, with Brahma, our gurudeva. It is like a game of hide and seek. Sometimes Krsna is defeating others and sometimes he is defeated.

So for this reason, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did not hesitate to give a description of the bewilderment of Brahma (brahma-vimohana-lila). Brahma was bewildered in Krsna-lila in Vrndavana, and again when Brahma went to have an interview with Krsna in Dwaraka, we find the same condition. The boundary of the sweet will of the infinite is such that anything can be accommodated there, and even Lord Brahma, the creator of the universe, can be perplexed by Krsna.

All these pastimes are like so many lighthouses showing us which way to go. Brahma is our guru, but he was bewildered by Krsna. And Vedavyasa, the universal guru, was also chastised by Narada. Narada was put to the test many times. All these examples are showing us the way, they are pointing out the direction, It is said, srutibhir vimrgyam: The authentic books about the revealed truth are only showing the way. They say: "Go in this direction. Where? We do not exactly know, but you may go in this direction." All the srutis, the guidance given by the scholars of revealed truth, give some direction": "Go this way, in this direction, and perhaps you may find it."

Madhvacarya, in his conception of how one should see the acarya, the spiritual master, could not harmonize Brahma's bewilderment. After all, he is the sampradaya guru, the foremost guru of the tradition, the Brahma-Madhva sampradaya. So Madhvacarya omitted these two chapters on the illusion of Brahma from Srimad-Bhagavatam. But Mahaprabhu did not. He accepted Sridhara Swami's edition, which is in accordance with the suddhadvaita philosophy of Visnuswami. The Visnuswami sampradaya follows raga-marga, spontaneous devotion. Sridhara Swami included those two chapters with his commentary, and Mahaprabhu accepted that, and it is corroborated in Caitanya-caritamrta. Madhvacarya could not accommodate the idea that guru may be seduced. He could not tolerate that guru may not know everything, may not be omniscient, but Mahaprabhu could.

[gHari]

We all have a ticket for the show. You can't put a price on that.

[suchandra]

 

Tell me if Krishna and me are simultaneously one and yet different is true. If yes, then why am I poor materially? Krishna is rich. He owns everything! If Krishna and me are one, why can`t I be rich like Him? Why did Krishna favor Bill Gates the billionaire instead of me? Bill Gates doesn`t chant Hare Krishna. Because if he did, he should have shared his wealth to the Hare Krishna foundation and aid those Hare Krishna devotees. You see, I need to buy medicines for my ailing body. I want to live longer so I can spread Krishna consciousness to everyone. I just can`t understand this teaching of Lord Chaitanya that Krishna and me are simultaneously one and yet are different.

 

"Practically there are three processes for elevating one to the

platform of spiritual consciousness. These processes are called karma,

jnana and bhakti. Ritualistic performances are in the field of karma.

Speculative processes are in the field of jnana. One who has taken to

bhakti, the devotional service of the Lord, need have nothing to do

with karma or jnana. It has been already explained that pure

devotional service is without any tinge of karma or jnana. Bhakti

should have no tinge of philosophical speculation or ritualistic

performances.

 

In this connection Srila Rupa Goswami gives evidence from

Srimad-Bhagavatam, Eleventh Canto, Twenty-first Chapter, verse 2, in

which Lord Krishna says to Uddhava, "The distinction between

qualification and disqualification may be made in this way: persons

who are already elevated in discharging devotional service will never

again take shelter of the processes of fruitive activity or

philosophical speculation. If one sticks to devotional service and is

conducted by regulative principles given by the authorities and

acaryas, that is the best qualification." ~ N.O.D. (Nectar of Devotion

OR Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu), Ch 5, The Purity of Devotional Service

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

We can know. Transcendental knowledge is understood by those that have transcended.

 

Theist clarifies this statement in the rest of his comment. Alone it implies that we can transcend the mundane by our own efforts.

 

As he says, by dry, empiric reasoning, we cannot conceive of that which is inconceivable.

 

However, the Lord can reveal to us whatever He chooses to reveal.

 

I'd rephrase that quote to read: Transcendental knowledge is understood by those to whom it has descended.

 

Theist sees revelation coming from within. Of course, that is true in a sense. I prefer to see it as descending from above.

[theist]

 

Theist clarifies this statement in the rest of his comment. Alone it implies that we can transcend the mundane by our own efforts.

 

No it doesn't. That may be how you are hearing it.

 

 

As he says, by dry, empiric reasoning, we cannot conceive of that which is inconceivable.

 

However, the Lord can reveal to us whatever He chooses to reveal.

 

I'd rephrase that quote to read: Transcendental knowledge is understood by those to whom it has descended.

 

Theist sees revelation coming from within. Of course, that is true in a sense. I prefer to see it as descending from above.

 

LOL. "From within" or "descended" it is the same thing. Krsna in the Gita says He enlightens His devotee from within.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

LOL. "From within" or "descended" it is the same thing. Krsna in the Gita says He enlightens His devotee from within.

But of course.

 

I could use a few good thwacks about the head from Gurudeva's cane, though, to go along with that inner revelation (or catalyze the process).

[gHari]

So in BG 7.7 quoted above Krsna sees two things:

 

 

1. sarvam idam - all that be which we see

 

 

2. mayi - Me

These are the two, but one rests on Him like pearls are strung on a thread. Therefore both are Him and yet He sees them as different -- Him and all that He can see.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Oneness and difference.

 

No way to explain any better than what you have quoted from TLC. We can treat that quote as a meditation that if Krsna is pleased with us He will let us enter in to the mystery of it's truth.

 

IOW through grace from within. Not likely all at once. More likely like the gradual unfolding of a flower.

 

Beautifully and poetically explained

 

Chant Hare Krishna, visit the Temple for association of the Dieties and the devotee's, attend scripture classes, dance around Tulsi, sing the prayers to the Spiritual Master, honor prasad.

 

And most important of all, EVERYONE you meet somehow tell them about Krishna, then when they walk away from you, that small seed of Krishna's name you have planted in their hearts, will give them the opportunity to begin their Spiritual life. This preaching is what pleases Krishna and Lord Caitanya, then EVERYTHING will be revealed to you.

[Beggar]

 

Beautifully and poetically explained

 

Chant Hare Krishna, visit the Temple for association of the Dieties and the devotee's, attend scripture classes, dance around Tulsi, sing the prayers to the Spiritual Master, honor prasad.

 

And most important of all, EVERYONE you meet somehow tell them about Krishna, then when they walk away from you, that small seed of Krishna's name you have planted in their hearts, will give them the opportunity to begin their Spiritual life. This preaching is what pleases Krishna and Lord Caitanya, then EVERYTHING will be revealed to you.

 

And what has been revealed to you, that Prabhupada's prominent godbrothers were impersonalists? A perfect illustration how while carrying out the different limbs of bhakti or devotional service one must become soft hearted and avoid vaisnava aparadha at all costs.

[Sarva gattah]

If the shoe fits.......

[Beggar]

 

If the shoe fits.......

 

No that response only shows that you have nothing more to say. If you believe that Srila Prabhupada's prominent godbrothers are impersonalists for espousing the tatastha sakti origins siddhanta, then prove that point with logic and reason supported by sastric evidence to back it up. If you want you can give a quote by Srila Prabhupada stating directly that his godbrothers were impersonalists, go ahead. Nobody has ever done this before, so it would be a first. If you can't do this then I would expect a public apology to Srila Prabhupada and his godbrothers for your audacious slander. But of course I know that you won't do either because those who live in the most gross, caveman conception of the most subtle philosophy cannot but be like "bulls in a china shop."

[Sarva gattah]

 

Lord Chaitanya said, " Your constitutional position is that you are pure living soul. This material body can`t be identified with your real self: nor is your mind your real identity, nor your intelligence, nor false ego. Your identity is that of eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord Krishna. Since you are between matter and spirit, your position is marginal. Belonging to the marginal potency of Krishna, you are simultaneously one with and different from Krishna. Because you are spirit, Krishna and you are no different. Because you are only a minute particle of Krishna, you differ from Him." ( Teachings of Lord Chaitanya , Chapter III, page 55 )

 

Can anyone in this forum explain to me this teaching of Lord Chaitanya to Sanatana Goswami? I want to be enlightened, please...

 

EVERYTHING will be revealed by chanting Hare Krishna, visiting the Temple for association of the Dieties and the devotee's, attending scripture classes, dancing around Tulsi, singing the prayers to the Spiritual Master, honoring prasad. AND EVERYONE you meet, somehow tell them about Krishna, give them one of Prabhupada's books, then when they walk away from you, that small seed of Krishna's name you have planted in their hearts, will give them the opportunity to begin their Spiritual life. This preaching is what pleases Krishna and Lord Caitanya.

 

THEN EVERYTHING will be revealed to ALL OF US.

[Beggar]

Still no reponse from Gaura Gopal das. Chant Hare Krsna and slander Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers by calling them directly or indirectly impersonalists. Then give no explanation for your opinion from guru, sadhu or sastra. Sounds like the program from Hell. Engage in such a hellish program of Vaisnava aparadha and maintain the belief that everything will be revealed. Sounds real smart, huh?

[Vigraha]

 

Let me lighten your burden, enlighten you. God exists, and everything and everyone else rely on His existence as He explains in the Bhagavad-gita 7.7:

 

<center>

mattaH parataraM nAnyat

kiJcid asti dhanaJjaya

mayi sarvam idaM protaM

sUtre maNi-gaNA iva

</center>

mattaH--beyond Me; para-taram--superior; na--not; anyat kiJcit--anything else; asti--there is; dhanaJjaya--O conqueror of wealth; mayi--in Me; sarvam--all that be; idam--which we see; protam--is strung; sUtre--on a thread; maNi-gaNAH--pearls; iva--like.

O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

 

 

EVERYTHING will be revealed by chanting Hare Krishna, visiting the Temple for association of the Dieties and the devotee's, attending scripture classes, dancing around Tulsi, singing the prayers to the Spiritual Master, honoring prasad. AND EVERYONE you meet, somehow tell them about Krishna, give them one of Prabhupada's books, then when they walk away from you, that small seed of Krishna's name you have planted in their hearts, will give them the opportunity to begin their Spiritual life. This preaching is what pleases Krishna and Lord Caitanya.

 

THEN EVERYTHING will be revealed to ALL OF US.

 

Lord Chaitanya said - "Your constitutional position is that you are pure living soul. This material body can`t be identified with your real self: nor is your mind your real identity, nor your intelligence, nor false ego. Your identity is that of eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord Krishna". Teachings of Lord Chaitanya , Chapter III, page 55