What should one do if a diksa-guru is not always present???

[krsna]

"Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru."

(Srila Prabhupada: lecture - Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3, Honolulu, 07/04/73)

[stonehearted]

Nice quotation, but the date is obviously mistaken. Srila Prabhupada never visited Honolulu in 1973. He came through just for the day in October of '72, gave a lecture in the evening, and then left fo the airport with Siddhasvarupanda for Manila and India. His next visit was in January of '74. In the summer of 1973, all the temples in the islands were closed down.

[gHari]

1974

[stonehearted]

Si.

[cbrahma]

Not another round of vapi vs vani.

Prabhupada has settled that question so completely, that it should never be controverted. It just shows how even with sufficient vani, the factional politics win over every time.

[mahak]

Yeah, but where did he say that vapu is nonsense and should be so completely rejected.

 

If one truely is adherant to vani, then vapu is also there, because the presence of guru is in the heart of those who follow vani. The vani-vadi must actually become conversant in vani, then discuss the glories of vani. Because there is a clause in vani that clearly notes that full presence is promised, for those who actually follow. Then we see no more vani vs vapu nonsense.

[cbrahma]

 

Yeah, but where did he say that vapu is nonsense and should be so completely rejected.

 

If one truely is adherant to vani, then vapu is also there, because the presence of guru is in the heart of those who follow vani. The vani-vadi must actually become conversant in vani, then discuss the glories of vani. Because there is a clause in vani that clearly notes that full presence is promised, for those who actually follow. Then we see no more vani vs vapu nonsense.

 

Shrila Prabhupada's Quotes on Vani and Vapu

 

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound

received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life.

That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very

strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting

places and this will be source of inspiration for you.

 

(SP Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always

thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically

we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should

be concerned only with this spiritual connection.

 

(SP Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical

presence. That is real association.

 

(SP Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the

vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The

vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from

Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their

words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation.

Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be

association by vibration not physical presence. That is real

association.

 

[Shakti-Fan]

From another thread but relevant:

 

How will we ever feel separation from Krsna if we can't feel separation from guru? How can we really feel separation from Sri guru if don't actually meet and serve that person in the vapu form? So when the devotees in a particular Math sanga will want to be with their guru as much as possible how can we fault them? But of course its obvious that they will be less concerned with our Srila Prabhupada, but what can we do?

What many don't understand is that Srila Prabhupada in some of his letters was trying assuage the pain of separation from him by his disciples. When Uddhava put forth similar teachings or arguments to the gopis, they rejected them. The gopis said something like, "we are not jnanis, we are simple village girls, so your arguments do not hold any weight with us". So the idea that guru and Krsna are everywhere held no weight with the gopis because no philosophy or siddhantic truth was strong enough to temper their separation from Krsna. Did Srila Prabhupada's "new" devotees have the background and experience in Gaudiya Vaisnavism to write back and say, "this philosophy if good but we still miss you, so much?" Do you think that this would have displeased Srila Prabhupada?... Sometimes I think that the idea of "guru" is what throws so many off. What about just the idea of Vaisnava. Do you want to meet a real Vaisnava? "Nah I'll just read about them (or their words) in books".

[cbrahma]

To claim that somebody is a real Vaisnava and ignore his words is false discispleship, especially when the words say that the words are more important.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Now I will explain the actual moods of the gopis. Although externally their words seem to have a certain meaning, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja is revealing their inner purport. He had heard this meaning from Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, who noted it all down, and he had understood everything from Svarupa Damodara and Rupa Gosvami. Therefore, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami is explaining the words of Svarupa Damodara and especially Rupa Gosvami.

The gopis were not satisfied at all, and in fact they became angry. This anger is also a tie of love and affection, but it was a crooked tie. The gopis actually told Krsna, "You are telling us to meditate, and You previously sent Uddhava and Baladeva Prabhu, who also told us Your version: 'Meditate on Me.'

"You must be joking with us! Where is our attachment to this world? Where is our family attachment? We've never had any. We have forgotten 'who am I' and 'where am I'. We have totally forgotten everything, including all of our senses. Where has our attachment gone? To You! We are always remembering You - when You were in Vrndavana - how we were sometimes playing together at Radha-kunda and Syama-kunda, sometimes playing at Bandirvata, sometimes in Nandagaon, and how we sometimes also used to meet together at Ter Kadamba. How glorious it was!"

The gopis related some of their previous pastimes to Krsna. For example, when Srimati Radhika was coming with all Her sakhis like Lalita and Visakha to Yasoda Bhavan for cooking, midway, at Ter Kadamba, Krsna was milking His cows. As they walked, Lalita said, "We should change our direction and go by that other path. This cheater has blocked our way. He is milking His cows only because He knows that we will come this way. Better that we change paths." Radhika replied, "Oh, why fear? We will not change our course. Let us see what happens." As She continued walking, Krsna began milking the cows in such a 'tricky' way that Her whole face became splashed with milk and all began to laugh.

The gopis were always remembering all these pastimes. There are so many pastimes that even Krsna cannot describe them all, even if He would have thousands and thousands of mouths.

The gopis said, "We only remember these pastimes! We are feeling very much separation from You, and now You are telling us, 'You should meditate on My lotus feet.' The great yogis like Brahma, Sankara, and Sukadeva can do this. Bhisma-pitamah and Narada can meditate on You; but we want to forget You totally! We don't want to think about You because You are very cruel and ungrateful."

Krsna wanted to hear all these things, and He thus held His head down in shame and thought, "All the gopis are blaming Me."

"So You are teaching us to meditate," the gopis continued. "Who do You want to meditate on You? We want to forget You, and You are telling us to meditate on You? We are not yogis! We are not yogesvaras like Brahma, Sankara, Bhisma-pitamah, Narada, Sukadeva, and others. We're not like the four Kumaras. We're not happy with this instruction.

"Previously, in Vrndavana, You told us, 'I am coming back tomorrow. If not then, surely I will come the day after tomorrow.' But You never came! You never returned! You told Uddhava to pacify us: 'Tell them that I am coming just now. I am coming after only four days!' After that Baladeva came to Vraja, speaking on Your behalf, and He told us, 'Oh, don't be worried. Krsna is coming very soon.' But you never came."

tomara vakya paripati, tara madhye kutinati, suni' gopira aro badhe rosa (C.C.Madhya 13.141)

"We do not like Your paripati, Your mode of expression. Tara madhye kutinati. There are so many things that are not good about it. Kutinati: ku - ti - na - ti. You are telling so many 'ku', things that are not good, and 'nati', things that are not favorable. You say, 'You should try to meditate on Me and remember Me.' But You know that since our childhood we were never able to forget You for even a moment." This is pure love, without desire for any gain.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

To claim that somebody is a real Vaisnava and ignore his words is false discispleship, especially when the words say that the words are more important.

 

Unfortunately ritvikism [including PL] is at once an offering of homage to the greatness of Prabhupada and a scourge. Every issue can only be solved by use of the meager 12 twelve years of his teachings in the West--it's like that story he tells of the veterinarian's assistant who treats all illnesses with a hammer blow to the throat. Think of the hours (and offenses) that have gone into churning a couple of letters and a few conversations. While it is admirable to want to follow his instructions, no matter their fragmentary or misunderstood nature, unfortunately this absorption ignores the fact that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is defined by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Six Goswamis. Prabhupada was a messenger--one of the greatest messengers--but he was not the message. The spiritual master is a cloud, taking water from the ocean and dropping it on the forest fire. He is not the ocean.

[cbrahma]

I do not endorse the ritvik system. It has just as many inherent problems as the GBC appointment system.

The ISKCON present system is quasi-ritvik anyways. The members act like Prabhupada disciples, distribute his books, practice guru-puja to him...etc..

The problem of authority is not so easily solved. Ritvik replaces direct diksa with clericism. A top heavy institution ruled by a bunch of intermediate priests to confer that rare commodity that will save our souls - diksa. Reminiscent of the Catholic church who hawk God's mercy.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I do not endorse the ritvik system. It has just as many inherent problems as the GBC appointment system.

The ISKCON present system is quasi-ritvik anyways. The members act like Prabhupada disciples, distribute his books, practice guru-puja to him...etc..

The problem of authority is not so easily solved. Ritvik replaces direct diksa with clericism. A top heavy institution ruled by a bunch of intermediate priests to confer that rare commodity that will save our souls - diksa. Reminiscent of the Catholic church who hawk God's mercy.

 

Then lets slightly change or adust something:

 

 

Unfortunately [only accepting the actual books, lectures, letters and walks of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada and ignoring the Gaudiya Vaisnava sastras that he did not personally translate as well as the writings and words of his guru, param guru and his friendly godbrothers] is at once an offering of homage to the greatness of Prabhupada and a scourge. Every issue can only be solved by use of the meager 12 twelve years of his teachings in the West--it's like that story he tells of the veterinarian's assistant who treats all illnesses with a hammer blow to the throat. Think of the hours (and offenses) that have gone into churning a couple of letters and a few conversations. While it is admirable to want to follow his instructions, no matter their fragmentary or misunderstood nature, unfortunately this absorption ignores the fact that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is defined by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Six Goswamis. Prabhupada was a messenger--one of the greatest messengers--but he was not the message. The spiritual master is a cloud, taking water from the ocean and dropping it on the forest fire. He is not the ocean.

[mahak]

More important does not negate the importance of what is less important. I do not defy my spiritual master, I write to present a different way of looking at things, an absolute duty of all who want to engage in sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam. What to do if diksa is away? The answer is to bring him back. Did the gopis just let Krsna leave? No, they were ready to commit suicide to prevent him from leaving. And when he did actually leave, he simultaneously stayed forever, he never leaves them for one fraction of a second. Sri Uddhava noted this carefully, and such teachjings of Sri Uddhava are the key to understanding this vapu-vani thing.

 

All the document lovers must admit they have seen where srila prabhupada personally promises to guide us from within. Despite his disappearance. This means that disappearance is illusion, becauswe for a true disciple, he never leaves for a moment. Just like the so-called murtis. If the murti represents vani and not vapu, then one does not understand what is meant by murti. This is why I sometimes sweem to reject the murti-vadi ramblings, because they cannot see that VAPU is there.

 

Anyway, in response to the topic query, what to do when He is away? Mahak's answer is to bring him back, give him the elevated vyasasana in your heart, relate to VAPU. If VAPU has no bearing, then this whole science is nullified, because the real founder of the samkirtana movement, Srila Maqdhavendra Puri, demonstrated pure vapu with his disciple, Srila Iswara Puri. If vapu is considered non-important, then this most impressive section of Chaitanya Charitamrta loses its place, aND i WILL JUST MOVE ON TO HEROIN, THE DRUG OF CHOICE FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT DEAL WITH PERSONAL CONTACT WITH kRSNA kATHA. nOT yelling, my finger slipped, too much "its all too much".

 

mahaksadasa

[cbrahma]

 

(SP Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the

vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The

vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from

Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their

words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation.

Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be

association by vibration not physical presence. That is real

association.

 

[mahak]

so what is the key to the idea of separation? It is re-uniting, otherwise, separation cannot be borne at all.

[cbrahma]

 

so what is the key to the idea of separation? It is re-uniting, otherwise, separation cannot be borne at all.

 

When we feel separation from

Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their

words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation

 

Always pointing to vani...always...

[Shakti-Fan]

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If there is no milana, meeting, no actual separation will come. Do you understand? You have seen me, you have met me and heard from me many times. So if you will not see me, you may have feelings of separation. You have met your Prabhupada and so you have feelings of separation for him. If you had never met him, how would you feel separation?

For conditioned souls aspiring for bhakti; real separation will not be realized. Now you can think, because of the words of our Guru, that we are dasa or dasi of Lord Sri Krsna, and by the grace of Guru we can meet with Him. By chanting the holy name, eagerness to see Him may come, and that eagerness will create some mood of separation. A sadhaka-jiva can come only to this limit. Understand?

[question:] What I don’t understand is that you said we can’t feel separation unless we have seen Krsna. But if we were never in lila before, where is the question of feeling separation?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] There is no separation mood in the conditioned soul, but by continually hearing, this mood can develop. Rukmini devi had never seen Krsna before her marriage with him, but she heard from Sri Narada Rsi about His beauty, liberality and many other good qualities. She heard “There is none as beautiful as Krsna, and He is so loving.” Hearing this, Rukmini gave her heart to Him. She had not only heard from Narada, but many others told her, “Krsna is so beautiful, and He is about your age. Rukmini thus gave her heart to Him, even though she had never seen Him. This is called purva-raga (attachment that comes previous to meeting).

She was not a sadhaka, but we are. Do you understand? Not so much separation mood will come in us. Gradually, however, by doing bhajana, when we get only a glimpse of Krsna, whether it is in a dream or spurti (vision), when He will come in our sight like a flash, we will then weep and feel separation. Do you understand something of this?

[suchandra]

 

What should one do if a diksa-guru is not always present???

Distribute transcendental knowledge...

 

 

full world sankirtan newsletter 2007

 

[mahak]

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This discussion is going on elsewhere as well. Deeper meaning can be had. I mentioned the teachings of Sri Uddhava, wherein he describes the conversations between the gopis and the bumblebee. This is actually meeting, and spawned by intense separation, such actual meeting is fully there.

 

Separation can also be understood in the story of the poor brahmana. He had only facility to imagine himself as pujari, yet, when he imagined being accidentally burned by the ghee lamp, his finger actually became blistered.

 

Perhaps, soon even, we should discuss simultaneous reality that is presently being discovered by the theoretical physicist and how it relates to the science of acintya bheda bhead tattwa. The gopis had a simultaneous reality, where they went about normal business while Krsna was thousands of miles away in Sri Dwarakadhama, yet they danced with him personally always.

 

This simultaneous reality is present when the guru disappears. The acarya always states that the relationship is eternal, so how can such a thing come to an end. How can something end with disappearance, yet continue eternally. Now poor cbrahma is trying to convey the vani clause, and this is not misunderstood by myself. I accept that the teachings of the acarya produces the same result, even better result, than personal physical association. However, the basis of murti philosophy is at stake here. If we do not accept full appearance of guru in the heart of disciple, then the disciple is not representing Him and he is not representing Krsna. If Krsna is not fully appeared in the form of his murti, then such a thing is idol worship.

 

Vani is presented as more important because there is no vapu without vani. One may know srila prabhupada, but they are not spiritually linked by that which we call vapu. They collect the rent, sell him an airline ticket, give him immigration status. Only those who serve vani can have vapu.

 

Srila Prabhupada EMPHASIZES vani because this is his gift. Thousands have no physical association, but real association is possible, and is promised. If he states he will be with us, guiding us, we take that to mean his full appearance, not unlike when he tells us Krsna is there on the altar, we actually perceive Krsna (or we dont).

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja speaks of this phenomenon. Dhruva, as a five year old, had the vapu of Lord Narayana, and the disappearance of such vapu linked him up to vani. Therefore, both were there, both were attractive, both spurred him on to understand real kingdoms from temporary ones. The kingdom he received will never disappear, even though situated in this temporary portion of the mahat tattwa.

 

This simultaneous reality is also there for us to judge whether a disciple represents guru, thus guru in his (her) own right. Srila Prabhupada made bhaktisiddhanta, narottama, bhaktivinode, chaitanya, madhavendra puri fully present to his disciple. Just that there was and is a bunch of smoke so we cant see the fire means that the sadhana purification process is functional and must always be continued, even when the smoke clears and all dimensions are simultaneously perceived at once.

 

We are speaking magic here, christmas day magic. Multiverse meets bheda bheda tattwa. Paradigms are called in sanskrit, anarthas.

 

mahaksadasaq

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Now Mahaprabhu has become ratnakara, realizing all siddhanta.

What kind of ocean is Caitanya Mahaprabhu compared with? That ocean is endless, with great waves of transcendental moods, like sancari, sattvik and vyabacari. Its waves are not like those of the salty sea, that drag you beneath the surface of the water and kill you. The waves of this ocean do not roll like those in the mundane ocean. They are very sweet, like nectar. The material ocean is not endless. It ends somewhere, because it is on the Earth. Nearby here (Murwillumbah) is the Gold Coast ocean, and on the other side there must be an island or continent. But Mahaprabhu's ocean is endless. There is no bottom, no end, no sides; no west, east, north nor south.

In the material ocean there are so many crocodiles, sharks, whales, poisonous snakes and other creatures that we don’t even know about. These large creatures can take elephants in their mouths and turn over large ships. We only know up to whales, but I have heard that bigger than whales are timingilas, and they can swallow those whales. None of these creatures are in Mahaprabhu’s ocean.

In other words, there is no worship of jnana (mental speculation and knowledge leading to impersonal liberation), karma and yoga, which swallow your existence. There are no crocodiles of mayavadism and voidism. There is only the sweet desire to serve Sri Sri Radha and Krsna, and especially the desire to serve Srimati Radhika. There are so many specialities of mellows in that ocean – 360 kinds of mellows in madhurya-rasa. Each sakhi is an embodiment of a particular mellow, and there are so many that we cannot count them. This ocean is so endless that even Sri Krsna, the Supreme Lord, can drown in it; and even He will find no end to it.

There are no big roaring waves here – only the waves of vipralambha (separation) and sambhoga (meeting) moods are here. Sambhoga and vipralambha are very sweet. When seen from the neutral point of view, sometimes the mood of separation appears sweeter than that of meeting. It dances on the head of sambhoga-rasa. However, if we examine this from the point of view of persons in that pastime, we see that they never accept vipralambha-rasa to be higher. They will think it like a poison.

No sakhi of Radhika desires that Radha and Krsna should be separated. We don't want Radha to lament and feel separation from Krsna. This mood of the maidservant of Radhika, or that of Her intimate sakhis, is so grave and deep that Raya Ramananda, as a devotee, and Sri Caitanya, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, will drown in it. This is such beautiful and tasteful nectar.

[cbrahma]

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Now Mahaprabhu has become ratnakara, realizing all siddhanta.

What kind of ocean is Caitanya Mahaprabhu compared with? That ocean is endless, with great waves of transcendental moods, like sancari, sattvik and vyabacari. Its waves are not like those of the salty sea, that drag you beneath the surface of the water and kill you. The waves of this ocean do not roll like those in the mundane ocean. They are very sweet, like nectar. The material ocean is not endless. It ends somewhere, because it is on the Earth. Nearby here (Murwillumbah) is the Gold Coast ocean, and on the other side there must be an island or continent. But Mahaprabhu's ocean is endless. There is no bottom, no end, no sides; no west, east, north nor south.

 

In the material ocean there are so many crocodiles, sharks, whales, poisonous snakes and other creatures that we don’t even know about. These large creatures can take elephants in their mouths and turn over large ships. We only know up to whales, but I have heard that bigger than whales are timingilas, and they can swallow those whales. None of these creatures are in Mahaprabhu’s ocean.

 

In other words, there is no worship of jnana (mental speculation and knowledge leading to impersonal liberation), karma and yoga, which swallow your existence. There are no crocodiles of mayavadism and voidism. There is only the sweet desire to serve Sri Sri Radha and Krsna, and especially the desire to serve Srimati Radhika. There are so many specialities of mellows in that ocean – 360 kinds of mellows in madhurya-rasa. Each sakhi is an embodiment of a particular mellow, and there are so many that we cannot count them. This ocean is so endless that even Sri Krsna, the Supreme Lord, can drown in it; and even He will find no end to it.

 

There are no big roaring waves here – only the waves of vipralambha (separation) and sambhoga (meeting) moods are here. Sambhoga and vipralambha are very sweet. When seen from the neutral point of view, sometimes the mood of separation appears sweeter than that of meeting. It dances on the head of sambhoga-rasa. However, if we examine this from the point of view of persons in that pastime, we see that they never accept vipralambha-rasa to be higher. They will think it like a poison.

 

No sakhi of Radhika desires that Radha and Krsna should be separated. We don't want Radha to lament and feel separation from Krsna. This mood of the maidservant of Radhika, or that of Her intimate sakhis, is so grave and deep that Raya Ramananda, as a devotee, and Sri Caitanya, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, will drown in it. This is such beautiful and tasteful nectar.

What does all this have to do with the preeminence of the spiritual master's vani?

[mahak]

that vani and vapu exist always simultaneously.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Good morning, Mahaksa Prabhu.

 

Don't know if you noticed, but your embedded player got "munged". I've noticed that the Forum will do that if one edits a posting with an embedded player. To keep that from happening, I've had to repaste the HTML for the player when I edit the post.

 

Merry Merry!! Happy Happy!

 

 

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[cbrahma]

 

that vani and vapu exist always simultaneously.

The pre-emminence of vani has little to do with the all the 'separation' references.

Vapu is physical presence. Vani is vibration. They DO NOT always exist simulataneously, otherwise the whole issue would be moot.