What should one do if a diksa-guru is not always present???

[Beggar]

Here is the authorized English translation of an original Sansrkita "homage", Sri Dayita Dasa Pranati Pancakam by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-dev Goswami Maharaj. Which part is about the vapu and what part is about the vani?

 

Homage unto Sri Dayita Dasa

1. He (of divine form) came forth from the birthplace of the golden

lotus - the ocean of the mellow of divine consorthood. His large,

merciful eyes dispel (the suffering souls') fear and proclaim (the

surrendered souls') victory. His tongue (constantly) vibrates the

whole Earth planet with Sri Krsna-sankirtana, his beauty

resplendent in the robes of the sun's radiance (saffron) that purifies

the universe and dispels the suffering of material existence. On his

Holy Day of Advent, I (again and again) bow down unto that beloved

associate of Sri Vrsabhanunandini, and the servitors of his lotus feet.

2. The devotees surrendered in pure devotion are eternally protected

at his lotus feet. He is worshippable by the pure souls endowed with

sincerity and good fortune, and he accepts (even) those who obstruct

the service of Sri Hari, just to rectify them. As the very fountainhead

of mercy upon all mobile and immobile beings, he crushes the

inauspiciousness of the whole universe. On his Holy Day of Advent, I

(again and again) bow down unto that beloved associate of Sri

Vrsabhanunandini, and the servitors of his lotus feet.

3. Like a miracle, his body moves with a joyful elegance and charm

beyond the world's understanding, fulfilling the artist's aspiration.

(Or, dancing in pastimes transcendental to the world, his artistic

form incites divine love's hankering). His intellect surpasses that of

(even) the demigods, and he is nobility incarnate as the commander

in-chief of the Vaisnava sannyasis (tridandi-yatis). The sadhus of

profound intellect describe the nature of his personality as

meticulously in the line of Sri Sanatana, Sri Rupa, and Sri

Raghunatha, and they speak of him as being on the same plane as

Sri Jivapada (being superbly replete in perfect theistic conclusions).

On his Holy Day of Advent, I (again and again) bow down unto that

beloved associate of Sri Vrsabhanunandini, and the servitors of his

lotus feet.

4. On the bank of Sri Radha Kunda at Svananda Sukhada Kunja, he

is devoted to the service of his Beloved, and (furthermore) he is

greatly endeared to the divine damsels of Vraja headed by Lalita. He

is most favorite to Kamala-manjari who is pre-eminent in

Vrndavana, and with the glorious qualities of Gunamanjari he

builds the residence of Sri Hari. On his Holy Day of Advent, I (again

and again) bow down unto that beloved associate of Sri

Vrsabhanunandini, and the servitors of his lotus feet.

5. He is immaculate joy incarnate, or, he is the graciousness or the

joy of Vimala Devi. He manifested the pastimes of his Advent at

Purusottama Ksetra in the holy land of Orissa, and he revealed his

pastimes of delivering the fallen souls and extending his mercy upon

them (by awarding them the gift of divine love) at the 'new isles,' or

Navadvipa. Circumambulating Gaura Dhama in the same way as

traditionally done at Vraja Dhama and Purusottama Dhama, he

continuously propagates - the loving desire of Vraja, the divine

abode of Vaikuntha, and the holy name of Krsna. On his Day of

Holy Advent, I (again and again) make my obeisance unto that dear

associate of Sri Vrsabhanunandini, and the servitors of his holy lotus

feet.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

at the 'new isles,' or

Navadvipa.

 

"Nava" means "new"???

 

I thought "Nava" means nine. I don't remember much of the Sanskrit that Kushakrata Prabhu tried to teach us, but I can still remember how to count:

 

Eka

Dvi

Tri

Chatur

Pancha

Shasha

Shapta

Asha

Nava

Dasha

Ekadasha

Dvadasha

[Beggar]

 

Originally Posted by Beggar quoting some source he claims is official though there is no link provided

(sectarian) paranoia strikes deep into you your heart it will seep... "Sagar

Maharaj" is the only person who has ever translated this.

 

 

"Nava" means "new"???

 

I thought "Nava" means nine.

 

nava yauvanam (Brahma Samhita) - ever fresh youth, always "new".

nava nava rasa (Prabhodananda Saraswati) - newer and newer rasa.

Those who are familiar with the books and lectures of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are also very familiar with this meaning of "nava" whether they know any Sanskrit or not. How many definitions are there of the Sanskrit word, atma?

How many different ways did Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu describe the "atma rama" verse? :

 

 

atmaramas ca munayo

nirgrantha apy urukrame

kurvanty ahaitukim bhaktim

ittham-bhuta-guno harih

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thanks for the Sanskrit lesson.

 

My main objection is that you seem to be unwilling or too lazy to offer links to the sources of your citations. Is it really too much to ask for you to provide such links?

 

 

(sectarian) paranoia strikes deep into you your heart it will seep... "Sagar

Maharaj" is the only person who has ever translated this.

 

 

 

nava yauvanam (Brahma Samhita) - ever fresh youth, always "new".

nava nava rasa (Prabhodananda Saraswati) - newer and newer rasa.

Those who are familiar with the books and lectures of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are also very familiar with this meaning of "nava" whether they know any Sanskrit or not. How many definitions are there of the Sanskrit word, atma?

How many different ways did Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu describe the "atma rama" verse? :

 

 

atmaramas ca munayo

nirgrantha apy urukrame

kurvanty ahaitukim bhaktim

ittham-bhuta-guno harih

 

 

 

 

[Vedesu]

 

Thanks for the Sanskrit lesson.

 

My main objection is that you seem to be unwilling or too lazy to offer links to the sources of your citations. Is it really too much to ask for you to provide such links?

 

Becoming just a tad strident it appears. I haven't seen you ask for links, only make snipes, insults, and sarcastic remarks that he hasn't provided them.

 

Why not politely ask? Let's aspire to be a bit more Vaisnava-like in these discussions if we may.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Becoming just a tad strident it appears. I haven't seen you ask for links, only make snipes, insults, and sarcastic remarks that he hasn't provided them.

 

Why not politely ask? Let's aspire to be a bit more Vaisnava-like in these discussions if we may.

 

I've asked Beggar to provide links on more than one occasion. He continues to ignore those requests.

 

I pray to be more Vaishnava-like.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

(sectarian) paranoia strikes deep into you your heart it will seep... "Sagar

Maharaj" is the only person who has ever translated this.

 

Not to find fault with Sripad Sagar Maharaja (or whatever your source is), but just how "new" are the nine islands of Navadvipa?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navadvipa

 

 

Nabadwip (<big>নবদ্বীপ</big>) (also Navadwip, Navadvipa or Nabadwipdham) is a city and a municipality in Nadia district in the Indian state of West Bengal. Its name means "9 islands" in the Bengali language. The islands are named Antardwip (Sri Mayapur), Simantadwip, Rudradwip, Madhyadwip, Godrumdwip, Ritudwip, Jahnudwip, Modadrumdwip, and Koladwip. It is a place of many lilas (or "pastimes of God" in Hinduism) of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Many pilgrims from origins worldwide adhering to Gaudiya Vaishnavism come to Navadwip every year on pilgrimage.

[Beggar]

My source is The Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library, where the Sri Sri Prapanna-jivanamrtam is in a pdf file that is not locked. They just somehow scanned in or copied the book. I just looked at the book published by the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math and it reads exactly the same,"new isles". Why don't you write Sripad Swaupananda Prabhu in the U.K. (Sagar Maharaj) and ask him? My point is that you don't take the time to do any sastric research before you send off what seems to be knee jerk repsonses. To the degree that one is familiar with the sastras or books, articles etc., it speeds us the research process because you have some idea where to look or what are the key words in your search. I would suggest that you need more basic sastric knowledge, so it would behoove you to devote some significant amount of time to such an endeavor. The published books of Srila Sridhar Maharaj are coming from his question and answer sessions with direct disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in the early 1980s. Those disciples had all spent a considerable amount of time reading, as thoroughly as possible, Srila Prabhupada's books. Consequently those talks of Srila Sridhar Maharaj constituted a "second installment" in Krsna Consciousness for the hearers at that time.

 

Not all but many of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's statements will only make the sense that he intended them to make if one is somewhat familiar with the Gaudiya Vaisnava sastras. For example, Srila Sridhar Maharaj would quote his guru stating that, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur said that he wanted to make his bhajan kutir at Kureksetra, therefore Srila Saraswati Thakur said that, "Vrndavana is for shallow thinkers". If one is not familiar with The Nectar of Instruction or at least have seen it quoted then how will they know that Mathura is higher than Dwaraka and Vrdanvana is higher than Mathura? What sense could they possibly make of the statement that "Vrndavana is for shallow thinkers"? The answer is clearly none. There are many points in "the second installment" that are completely lost on those who do not have a sufficient primary education in Krsna Consciousness! Why are those children who have skipped (or not given) their meal being served dessert?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

That's all very interesting, but why won't you include a link to the source when you quote something?

 

 

My source is The Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library, where the Sri Sri Prapanna-jivanamrtam is in a pdf file that is not locked. They just somehow scanned in or copied the book. I just looked at the book published by the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math and it reads exactly the same,"new isles". Why don't you write Sripad Swaupananda Prabhu in the U.K. (Sagar Maharaj) and ask him? My point is that you don't take the time to do any sastric research before you send off what seems to be knee jerk repsonses. To the degree that one is familiar with the sastras or books, articles etc., it speeds us the research process because you have some idea where to look or what are the key words in your search. I would suggest that you need more basic sastric knowledge, so it would behoove you to devote some significant amount of time to such an endeavor. The published books of Srila Sridhar Maharaj are coming from his question and answer sessions with direct disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in the early 1980s. Those disciples had all spent a considerable amount of time reading, as thoroughly as possible, Srila Prabhupada's books. Consequently those talks of Srila Sridhar Maharaj constituted a "second installment" in Krsna Consciousness for the hearers at that time.

 

Not all but many of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's statements will only make the sense that he intended them to make if one is somewhat familiar with the Gaudiya Vaisnava sastras. For example, Srila Sridhar Maharaj would quote his guru stating that, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur said that he wanted to make his bhajan kutir at Kureksetra, therefore Srila Saraswati Thakur said that, "Vrndavana is for shallow thinkers". If one is not familiar with The Nectar of Instruction or at least have seen it quoted then how will they know that Mathura is higher than Dwaraka and Vrdanvana is higher than Mathura? What sense could they possibly make of the statement that "Vrndavana is for shallow thinkers"? The answer is clearly none. There are many points in "the second installment" that are completely lost on those who do not have a sufficient primary education in Krsna Consciousness! Why are those children who have skipped (or not given) their meal being served dessert?

[Beggar]

 

That's all very interesting, but why won't you include a link to the source when you quote something?

Because almost nobody does that here. Some believe that if the source is not directly the SCSM archives then even if it's the same words that it is bogus. I find that being implied.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Because almost nobody does that here. Some believe that if the source is not directly the SCSM archives then even if it's the same words that it is bogus. I find that being implied.

 

Perhaps. I've found errors in things you've posted as quotes before (not errors in translation, but actual omissions of words and such). I'm not saying alternate sources are bogus, but it's certainly *useful* to consider what the source is when reading a quote.

 

As for nobody posting links, that's ridiculous. Whenever somebody posts from the Vedabase, the link is part of what they copy and paste (by the nature of the Vedabase). Considering that Vedabase quotes make up the bulk of the quotes on the site, most quotes *do* include links back to the source.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

To elaborate:

 

Lots of folks like to quote Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Just yesterday, Sripad Janardan Maharaja was commenting how many persons came to see Srila Sridhar Maharaja with the intention of taking some of his "trade secrets" with them in their pockets to use for their own advantage only to later find their pockets empty.

 

As Maharaja said, unless we get these pure realizations from a pure soul, their full import will escape us.

 

I've heard (I hope not to have direct experience of it except to the extent that I too am guilty) that there are those who like to mine the treasures of Srila Sridhar Maharaja without giving full honor (and what is to humbly honor if it is not to humbly serve?) to his most dear disciple and chosen successor, Srila Gurudev.

 

It is this cheating tendency against which we all must guard.

 

What are all these exalted concepts worth to us if they do not move us to serve? I ask myself that as much as I ask you.

 

 

Perhaps. I've found errors in things you've posted as quotes before (not errors in translation, but actual omissions of words and such). I'm not saying alternate sources are bogus, but it's certainly *useful* to consider what the source is when reading a quote.

 

As for nobody posting links, that's ridiculous. Whenever somebody posts from the Vedabase, the link is part of what they copy and paste (by the nature of the Vedabase). Considering that Vedabase quotes make up the bulk of the quotes on the site, most quotes *do* include links back to the source.

[Beggar]

 

Perhaps. I've found errors in things you've posted as quotes before (not errors in translation, but actual omissions of words and such). I'm not saying alternate sources are bogus, but it's certainly *useful* to consider what the source is when reading a quote.

 

Those are technical errors in the cutting and pasting process. Sometimes words in a text disappear or are repeated. The point is not trusting so-called "outside sources" becomes like fearing that the translations of the "Gaudiya Math" are "contaminated with impersonalism". SAME THING! SAME MENTALITY!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Don't know if you saw this, Beggar. This is really the heart of the matter, not some typos.

 

 

To elaborate:

 

Lots of folks like to quote Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Just yesterday, Sripad Janardan Maharaja was commenting how many persons came to see Srila Sridhar Maharaja with the intention of taking some of his "trade secrets" with them in their pockets to use for their own advantage only to later find their pockets empty.

 

As Maharaja said, unless we get these pure realizations from a pure soul, their full import will escape us.

 

I've heard (I hope not to have direct experience of it except to the extent that I too am guilty) that there are those who like to mine the treasures of Srila Sridhar Maharaja without giving full honor (and what is to humbly honor if it is not to humbly serve?) to his most dear disciple and chosen successor, Srila Gurudev.

 

It is this cheating tendency against which we all must guard.

 

What are all these exalted concepts worth to us if they do not move us to serve? I ask myself that as much as I ask you.

[Beggar]

 

To elaborate:

 

Lots of folks like to quote Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Just yesterday, Sripad Janardan Maharaja was commenting how many persons came to see Srila Sridhar Maharaja with the intention of taking some of his "trade secrets" with them in their pockets to use for their own advantage only to later find their pockets empty.

 

As Maharaja said, unless we get these pure realizations from a pure soul, their full import will escape us.

 

I've heard (I hope not to have direct experience of it except to the extent that I too am guilty) that there are those who like to mine the treasures of Srila Sridhar Maharaja without giving full honor (and what is to humbly honor if it is not to humbly serve?) to his most dear disciple and chosen successor, Srila Gurudev.

 

It is this cheating tendency against which we all must guard.

 

What are all these exalted concepts worth to us if they do not move us to serve? I ask myself that as much as I ask you.

Then what are you doing exchanging ideas on a website with "mixed company", that is disciples of different gurus or the uninitiated and or rtviks and PLs? When Srila Sridhar Maharaj spoke to Srila Prabhupada's disciples did he tell them that they were not obligated to serve his Math? Of course not. Can the ideas of Srila Sridhar Maharaj help all of those in the extended family of Srila Saraswati Thakur? Of course they can. When the members of different Maths sing Sri Sri Prabhupada-padma Stavakah by Srila Sridhar Maharaj do they derive any devotional benefit? Do they have to give up their guru and accept yours because he is Srila Sridhar Maharaj's successor? To repeat these devotional sentiments towards guru and guru varga amongst godbrothers is one thing but to say this in public as if it was tattva-jnana is bordering on the absurd. To make such an error is just as fanatical as Prabhupada-onlyism, period.

[Beggar]

And the heart of the matter is that you are in public not the temple room at the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Seva Asrama. (Don't miss post #40).

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

And the heart of the matter is that you are in public not the temple room at the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Seva Asrama. (Don't miss post #40).

 

I caught it.

 

Sripad Pusta Krishna Prabhu is a dyed-in-the-wool "Prabhupada Man." He's also quite busy.

 

He has some appreciation for Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Govinda Maharaja, so, he does some service as he is able.

 

Yesterday, at the Seva Ashram, *all* of the speakers but two were dedicated disciples of Srila Swami Maharaja Prabhupada. They have been captivated by Srila Gurudeva's devotion, and have dedicated their lives to serving Srila Prabhupada through him.

 

Of course it's absurd to say that nobody can appreciate Srila Sridhar Maharaja without falling at the feet of Srila Gurudev, but certainly, those with the *greatest* appreciation for Srila Sridhar Maharaja do. The rest are honey-bees, dabblers, or spiritual prostitutes (wear the description that fits best).

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

And the heart of the matter is that you are in public not the temple room at the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Seva Asrama. (Don't miss post #40).

 

Those are public programs. I don't recall having to show any membership card to get in.

[Beggar]

 

I caught it.

 

Of course it's absurd to say that nobody can appreciate Srila Sridhar Maharaja without falling at the feet of Srila Gurudev, but certainly, those with the *greatest* appreciation for Srila Sridhar Maharaja do. The rest are honey-bees, dabblers, or spiritual prostitutes (wear the description that fits best).

That is a devotional sentiment for yourself and others who feel the same way. It is not tattva-jnana for there is no objectivity. But guru bhakti is not objective but rather subjective. Who is really guru must be revealed from within the heart. To say that, "it is a heart transaction" is tattva jnana for it is describing the process in objective terms. But for you to say,

 

...but certainly, those with the *greatest* appreciation for Srila Sridhar Maharaja do. The rest are honey-bees, dabblers, or spiritual prostitutes (wear the description that fits best).

on a public forum is inappropriate for it will be seen as fanatical and sectarian by others and they will be careful to approach you at arms length. To give the principle of tad viddhi pranipatena/ paraprasnena sevaya from Bhagavad Gita, that is, submissive inquiry and service to Sri Guru is tattva-jnana, and is appropriate and a universal concept for all seekers.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

To give the principle of tad viddhi pranipatena/ paraprasnena sevaya from Bhagavad Gita, that is, submissive inquiry and service to Sri Guru is tattva-jnana, and is appropriate and a universal concept for all seekers.

 

Which brings us full circle to the topic of this thread.

 

Most can accept the Gita in theory, but their minds tell them "there is no qualified Guru available to me--I might as well surrender to the books".

 

Sripad Goswami Maharaja advises us to abandon the pretense of objectivity and embrace *super*-subjectivity.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Besides. It's somehow acceptable to be a sports fanatic, but it's not acceptable to be a guru fanatic?

 

I *wish* I was a guru fanatic. If I truly was, I wouldn't be here now, would I?

[Beggar]

 

Which brings us full circle to the topic of this thread.

Most can accept the Gita in theory, but their minds tell them "there is no qualified Guru available to me--I might as well surrender to the books".

But the Gita says tad viddhi pranipatena... just try to approach a spritiual master.

 

 

Sripad Goswami Maharaja advises us to abandon the pretense of objectivity and embrace *super*-subjectivity.

Srila Govinda Maharaj has used the phrase, "objective or neutral viewpoint". Sripad Goswami Maharaj is repeating Srila Sridhar Maharaj. It is all a matter of application, knowing when and how to apply objectivity without compromising bhakti which is a transactiion in the realm of the super-subjective.

 

 

...I *wish* I was a guru fanatic. If I truly was, I wouldn't be here now, would I?

Srila Govinda Maharaj is not a native English speeker. When he said that,"being a fanatic for guru is a good thing", it may be that he doesn't mean "fanatic" in the way it connotes "close minded" in contemporary American and British English. Close minded in Gaudiya Vaisnava terms would be the same as what Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur called "party spirit". The Thakur, in the speech, The Bhagavat, said that, "party spirit the enemy of progress". So I would not advise you to think that being full of party spirit is what your guru meant. But confusing devotional sentiments towards one's guru with tattva jnana, in this case guru-tattva-jnana, will be viewed as the fanaticism of sectarian party spirit because it takes place as a result of blindness and ignorance, not knowledge and light.

[Audarya-lila dasa]

Beggar's point is that your subjective experience is not that of others nor should you measure others by your subjective reality. The objective point of tattva is the universal principal of Guru bhakti and seva, the subjective part is what Beggar was pointing out is inappropriate and fanatical. According to you, those who fall at the feet of your Gurudeva are the one's who most appreciate and follow Sridhara Maharaja, but that is only your subjective opinion and then calling those who don't 'honey-bees, dabblers, or spiritual prostitutes' fits within your subjective experience but it will definitely be seen as fanatical and possibly offensive by others.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj is not a native English speeker. When he said that,"being a fanatic for guru is a good thing", it may be that he doesn't mean "fanatic" in the way it connotes "close minded" in contemporary American and British English. Close minded in Gaudiya Vaisnava terms would be the same as what Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur called "party spirit". The Thakur, in the speech, The Bhagavat, said that, "party spirit the enemy of progress". So I would not advise you to think that being full of party spirit is what your guru meant. But confusing devotional sentiments towards one's guru with tattva jnana, in this case guru-tattva-jnana, will be viewed as the fanaticism of sectarian party spirit because it takes place as a result of blindness and ignorance, not knowledge and light.

 

You don't seem to be a native English "speeker" either.

 

I wasn't quoting Gurudev, anyways, regarding "being a fanatic for guru". Have you ever heard of him saying such a thing?

 

Unlike being a sports fan, being a fanatic of Sri Guru does not need to imply opposition to any other "party".

 

In any case, my points are made, but this doesn't feel like it is good for my soul. I'll go away again now. Perhaps I can stay away longer this time.

 

Dayal Nitai!!!

[Beggar]

Let's review the day between Beggar and Murali Mohan. On the thread "What should one do if the diksa-guru is not always present", post #27 you made the error of thinking that nava only means nine and not "new" and as Vedesu noted, attacked me for that. Next on the thread , Who coined the phrase Krsna Consciousness, post #17 you made the error of extrapolating that since Srila Saraswati Thakur had offered his repects to a "sahajiya vaisnava from afar" that Sahajiyaism is worse than impersonalism. On the thread "What should one do if the diksa-guru is not always present", post #41 you admit that, "Of course it's absurd to say that nobody can appreciate Srila Sridhar Maharaja without falling at the feet of Srila Gurudev" and then immediately contradict yourself by writing, "The rest are honey-bees, dabblers, or spiritual prostitutes (wear the description that fits best)." On the thread "What should one do if the diksa-guru is not always present", post #45 you give Goswami Maharaja the credit for the term super-subjective and then immediately misinterpret and misapply the concept. Then on post #46 you misinterpret the intended meaning of the word "fanatic" as used by Srila Govinda Maharaj in relationship to guru bhakti. Let's not forget your sectarian paranoia over the "source" issue. Sources are important but from the right perspective. Take the time you are spending on this forum and go back and read or re-read the books of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaj. The books of Srila Prabhupada are very important for those in his and related lines. Then if you have questions, ask advanced, learned devotees in your sanga. You need to be more clear on the basic concepts of Krsna Consciousness and expand your general knowledge on these topics. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->