why I stopped chanting

[cbrahma]

I used to do the basic sadhanna - 16 rounds,the morning program, taking only prasadam , harer nama reading the sastras etc...

I stopped because everything was complication on top of complication.

Just the chanting was a mine field of possible offenses, not to mention making prasadam and all the other activities.

Why should a path towards God's mercy be so fraught with hundreds of hoops to jump through.

Just the anxiety of trying to 'get it right', makes the workaday world look like a walk in the park.

And then there's the guru initiation thing...the deepest briar patch of complications and dangers.

[davidbrucehughes]

Dear cbrahma,

 

Sorry to hear that the neophytes discouraged you. What the corporate religionist devotees will never tell you is that there are two platforms for devotional service: vaidhi-bhakti or the rules and regulations of the scriptures, and raganuga-bhakti or spontaneous love of Godhead.

 

"Now this

sādhana-bhakti

, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called

vaidhi

, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of

sādhana-bhakti

is called

rāgānugā. Rāgānugā

refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa, and executes devotional service out of natural love. ... So the practice of devotional service,

sādhana-bhakti,

can be divided into two parts--namely, regulative and spontaneous." [

Nectar of Devotion,

Chapter 2]

 

Raganuga-bhakti is elaborately described in Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 15. There it is said:

 

"Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī has defined

rāgānugā-bhakti

as spontaneous attraction for something while completely absorbed in thoughts of it, with an intense desire of love. Devotional service executed with such feelings of spontaneous love is called

rāgānugā-bhakti

."

 

In my analysis of Srila Prabhupada's preaching, especially in the early days in NYC, I was struck by the fact that he seemed to be presenting both of these approaches simultaneously. This was very powerful and attractive, especially to the young Westerners he was addressing.

 

Sometimes an act that is considered offensive on the platform of vaidhi-bhakti is accepted as an act of worship in raganuga-bhakti. It really depends on the intention behind the act. If it is done out of love, then although it may ostensibly be offensive, the Lord may accept it as service. Your consciousness is the bottom line.

 

You have let the rigid, rule-minded scribes run you out of the temple with an impossible standard of devotional service, before meeting the all-merciful sat-guru who will accept you and your service as they are.

 

love,

Baba

[new---new]

Anxiety is the side effect of the necessary evil called "Rules" in any organized religion........ while the rules are ultimately helpful in the evolution of a soul they are not always "necessary" and have no inherent "merit" form any moral point of view .... however they should be followed as best as possible until they start bearing fruits ....i,e, until they help bring about spiritual experiences.At that point you will realize that there was no need for being anxious .....and no god is ever going to be angry.........the anxiety is a result of personal dissatisfaction with self effort......so it is best to do sadhana without expecting anything........without expecting oneself to follow all the rules at all the times...... be at peace and do sadhana without any pressure......but do it regularly ..........until it bears fruit......you've seeded the farm and have watered it. it would be a waste to stop now....continue watering ...until the harvest season..........nature doesnt bear fruits ..until the harvest season..........if you want the fruits....then you have to follow the "law of the farm".....and hey i dont like the law either.....but its a fact....cheers.

[Shakti-Fan]

Rupanuga and Raganuga

Mathura, India: October 12, 1996

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

There is a difference between rupanuga [*Endnote 1] and raganuga [*Endnote 2]. Those who are in this world and serve Sri Sri Radha-Krsna on the path of raga (loving attachment), following in the footsteps of the ragatmika-bhaktas who are described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and Sri Ujjvala-nilamani, all are raganuga.

This applies to those devotees who have some greed for vraja-bhakti and are actually following the process to attain it. Still, it may be that they are not rupanuga, but raganuga. Sri Jayadeva Gosvami was not rupanuga, but raganuga. Sri Bilvamangala Thakura was truly raganuga, but not rupanuga. Sri Svarupa Damodara and Sri Raya Ramananda were not rupanuga, although they were in the intimate association of Srila Rupa Gosvami. They are Lalita devi and Visakha devi themselves, so they are in a different category of eternal associates of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. They are not rupanuga.

Those who follow Srila Rupa Gosvami’s Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and are under the guidance of Krsna’s cowherd friends (sakhas), like Subala, Sridama and all others, and who want to serve Lord Krsna like the sakhas – will not be called rupanuga. They will be called raganuga.

Lalita and Visakha and Yasoda-maiya are neither raganuga nor rupanuga. They are not “anuga”, followers. Those who are siddha, perfect, liberated associates, and are serving Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana are called ragatmika [*Endnote 3]. Those who want to serve Lord Krsna like them are called sadhakas (practitioners). Thus following raga-marga (the path of raga) they are raganuga. If one follows this path, inwardly mediating, “How can I serve Lord Krsna like Mother Yasoda or Nanda Baba?” he will be called raganuga, not rupanuga. Srila Rupa Gosvami has explained the glory of all these relationships in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Still, they will not be called rupanuga.

Those who are truly raganuga and follow the manner and mood in which Sri Rupa Manjari serves Radha and Krsna – those who, in their constitutional form, are in the same mood as Sri Rupa Manjari, and who are in the same mood and perform the same devotional activities as Srila Rupa Gosvami at the time of practice – only they are called rupanuga.

Rupanuga is the following of the way in which Sri Rupa Manjari serves both Radha and Krsna – being more inclined towards Srimati Radhika – happy in the happiness of Srimati Radhika and suffering like Her when She suffers. A person who follows in such a way can be called rupanuga.

Parama-pujyapada Srila Svami Maharaja has come especially to give this – rupanuga-bhakti. He did not come only to give raganuga-bhakti, nor did he come only to give vaidhi-bhakti. He could not give this to his general disciples at that time, however, because most of them were not in the stage to understand. Even now I am endeavoring with great labor to make you understand, but still only a few are trying to understand. About 25 years ago, when Srila Svami Maharaja went to America to preach, how could he openly preach this topic? There was practically no one qualified to understand – and thus he was mostly engaged in cutting jungles.

The entire disciplic-succession of our Gaudiya mission is rupanuga. The sampradaya of Srila Nimbarkacarya is raganuga, but of Dvaraka – of Satyabhama and Rukmini. His followers are not like Srila Rupa Gosvami. Only the acaryas coming in the line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are rupanuga.

Srila Svami Maharaja came to give what is already in each soul.

krti-sadhya bhavet sadhya-

bhava sa sadhanabhidha

nitya-siddhasya bhavasya

prakatyam hrdi sadhyata

[“When transcendental devotional service, by which love for Krsna is attained, is executed by the senses, it is called sadhana-bhakti, or the regulative discharge of devotional service. Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice.”]

The soul is perfect in itself. The soul’s relation with Krsna, its name, qualities and all specialities, are already present within. This perfection is not brought from outside. Unfortunately maya covers it, but Sri Guru removes that maya and then everything manifests automatically.

This pure prema will not come by any efforts or any sadhana. What is there will come out; no new thing will come. No type of association can change what is already in the soul.

What is in your soul will manifest by sravana (hearing), kirtana (chanting) and smarana (remembering). Whatever rasa is in the soul will manifest. If it is dasya-rasa, then dasya-rasa will manifest. It is a fact that if someone is in madhurya-rasa, he will have only a little taste for dasya or sakhya-rasa. This will automatically come – it will come when our anarthas will disappear.

It is sometimes misunderstood that Srila Svami Maharaja was only in sakhya-rasa, and that he cannot give madhurya-rasa. This is not a fact. He came only for spreading the same mission to the world that was brought by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

He has not come only to give vaidhi-bhakti.* [see Endnote 4] We will have to perform vaidhi-bhakti, of course, and by this, bhakti will manage everything. Bhakti is not only a quality – she is not nirvisesa, impersonal. She is a person. Krsna is controlled by prema-bhakti. Krsna, and Srimati Radhika, and all Their associates, are controlled by bhakti. Bhakti can make Radha dance, Krsna dance, the gopis dance, and bhakti herself dance. She makes all dance.

* Endnotes:

On Rupanuga:

1. It is not that Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada has discovered something new, and that we are "Prabhupadanugas". It is not that Rupa Gosvami’s followers are Rupanuga Vaisnavas and Srila Prabhupada’s followers are Prabhupadanuga. All our acaryas have told us to follow the Rupanuga Vaisnavas – but who are Rupanuga?

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu first of all inspired all spiritual truths in Srila Rupa Gosvami's heart, as well as all knowledge of the Vedas, Upanisads and all other scriptures. Then, by the Lord´s mercy, Srila Rupa Gosvami knew His heart:

sri-caitanya-mano-'bhistam

sthapitam yena bhu-tale

svayam rupah kada mahyam

dadati sva-padantikam

[“When will Srila Rupa Gosvami Prabhupada, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Lord Caitanya, give me shelter under his lotus feet?"]

By the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Rupa Gosvami manifested, or wrote, so many books, such as Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Sri Ujjvala-nilamani and Sri Upadesamrta. He explained everything about Vraja-bhakti in Sri Ujjvala-nilamani and Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He wrote Sri Ujjvala-nilamani especially to give vraja-prema and vraja-bhakti. He explained in Bhakti-rasamtra-sindhu that bhakti can be experienced by five moods and five kinds of services; santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. Among them, three are prominent – sakya, vatsalya and madhurya. The mood of the Vrajabasis is vraja-bhakti; especially, the mood of the gopis is madhurya-rasa in vraja-bhakti; and especially, the mood of Srimati Radhika is the highest emblem of vraja-bhakti.

Srila Rupa Gosvami explained, "There are two processes of practical devotional service. One is regulative devotional service, and the other is spontaneous devotional service." (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.108)] Those who follow the path of raganuga in any rasa other than manjari-bhava in madhurya-rasa are rupanuga, but not so much – partly, very partly. In fact, it can also be said that they are not rupanuga. (Srila Narayana Maharaja’s lecture of May 18, 2004; Badger, California)]

2. “Consequently we always request members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to publish as many books as possible and distribute them widely throughout the world. By thus following in the footsteps of Srila Rapa Gosvami, one can become a rupanuga devotee.” (Purport Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.132)

3. "We Gaudiya Vaisnavas are known as Rupanuga. Rupanuga means the followers of Rupa Gosvami. Why should we become followers of Rupa Gosvami? Because sri-caitanya-mano 'bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale. He wanted to establish the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2, Hyderabad, April 13, 1975)

4. “Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami are the most exalted servitors of Srimati Radharani and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who adhere to their service are known as rupanuga devotees.” (Mad.8.246 Purp.)

5. “Unless you become rupanuga, you cannot understand the Gaudiya philosophy.” (Vrnd. Oct. ’72 lecture)

On Raganuga-bhakti:

1. “One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna's service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna." (Sri Caitanya-cartiamrta, Madya 8.221 purport)

2. "Devotional service in spontaneous love is vividly expressed and manifested by the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Devotional service that accords with their devotional service is called raganuga-bhakti, or devotional service following in the wake of spontaneous loving service." (Sri Caitanya-cartamrta, Madhya 22.154)]

On Ragatmika

1. "The original inhabitants of Vrndavana are attached to Krsna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called ragatmika-bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vrndavana, his devotional service is called raganuga-bhakti." (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 22.149)

2. "When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his natural inclination to love is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord. That is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called ragatmika, or spontaneous devotional service.” (Madhya 22.149)

"Those who have not attained the platform of spontaneous attachment in devotional service render devotional service under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master according to the regulative principles mentioned in the revealed scriptures. According to the revealed scriptures, this kind of devotional service is called vaidhi bhakti.” (Mad. 22.109)

[HerServant]

 

Dear cbrahma,

 

Sorry to hear that the neophytes discouraged you. What the corporate religionist devotees will never tell you is that there are two platforms for devotional service: vaidhi-bhakti or the rules and regulations of the scriptures, and raganuga-bhakti or spontaneous love of Godhead.

 

"Now this

s?dhana-bhakti

, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called

vaidhi

, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of

s?dhana-bhakti

is called

r?g?nug?. R?g?nug?

refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to K???a, and executes devotional service out of natural love. ... So the practice of devotional service,

s?dhana-bhakti,

can be divided into two parts--namely, regulative and spontaneous." [

Nectar of Devotion,

Chapter 2]

 

Raganuga-bhakti is elaborately described in Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 15. There it is said:

 

"?r? R?pa Gosv?m? has defined

r?g?nug?-bhakti

as spontaneous attraction for something while completely absorbed in thoughts of it, with an intense desire of love. Devotional service executed with such feelings of spontaneous love is called

r?g?nug?-bhakti

."

 

In my analysis of Srila Prabhupada's preaching, especially in the early days in NYC, I was struck by the fact that he seemed to be presenting both of these approaches simultaneously. This was very powerful and attractive, especially to the young Westerners he was addressing.

 

Sometimes an act that is considered offensive on the platform of vaidhi-bhakti is accepted as an act of worship in raganuga-bhakti. It really depends on the intention behind the act. If it is done out of love, then although it may ostensibly be offensive, the Lord may accept it as service. Your consciousness is the bottom line.

 

You have let the rigid, rule-minded scribes run you out of the temple with an impossible standard of devotional service, before meeting the all-merciful sat-guru who will accept you and your service as they are.

 

love,

Baba

 

Thank you Baba for your nice reply. Even so, for myself (and perhaps cbrahma), the distinctions between raganuga and vaidhi bhakti are too advanced for me.

 

Since I can only perform devotional service in some very small and limited amounts, I very much appreciated your comments about the "intention behind the act .. if done out of love"

 

Her Servant and yours.

[Vedesu]

 

Thank you Baba for your nice reply. Even so, for myself (and perhaps cbrahma), the distinctions between raganuga and vaidhi bhakti are too advanced for me.

 

Since I can only perform devotional service in some very small and limited amounts, I very much appreciated your comments about the "intention behind the act .. if done out of love"

 

Although I certainly have zero experience or realization in these matters, there is a wonderful analogy which may help clarify the unique distinction of raganuga bhakti:

 

 

In the Padma Purāṇa there is a statement of submission in feeling by devotees praying to the Lord: "My Lord, I know that young girls have natural affection for young boys, and that young boys have natural affection for young girls. I am praying at Your lotus feet that my mind may become attracted unto You in the same spontaneous way." The example is very appropriate. When a young boy or girl sees a member of the opposite sex there is a natural attraction, without the need for any introduction. Without any training there is a natural attraction due to the sex impulse. This is a material example, but the devotee is praying that he may develop a similar spontaneous attachment for the Supreme Lord, free from any desire for profit and without any other cause. This natural attraction for the Lord is the perfectional stage of self-realization.

[HerServant]

 

Although I certainly have zero experience or realization in these matters, there is a wonderful analogy which may help clarify the unique distinction of raganuga bhakti:

 

 

In the Padma Pur?n?a there is a statement of submission in feeling by devotees praying to the Lord: "My Lord, I know that young girls have natural affection for young boys, and that young boys have natural affection for young girls. I am praying at Your lotus feet that my mind may become attracted unto You in the same spontaneous way." The example is very appropriate. When a young boy or girl sees a member of the opposite sex there is a natural attraction, without the need for any introduction. Without any training there is a natural attraction due to the sex impulse. This is a material example, but the devotee is praying that he may develop a similar spontaneous attachment for the Supreme Lord, free from any desire for profit and without any other cause. This natural attraction for the Lord is the perfectional stage of self-realization.

 

Thank you Vedesu! Does the above quote refer to raganuga bhakti or vaidhi bhakti? I assume it refers to raganuga bhakti. Am I correct?

 

Thank you.

 

Her Servant and yours.

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Narayana Maharaja

Badger, California May 20, 2004,

 

Why do we become weak? The process of bhakti is complete, but we cannot follow it due to our anarthas (obstacles in the execution of bhakti created by our own past sins and offences). Srila Haridasa Thakura chanted three hundred thousand names, or 128 rounds, of harinama daily. So at least we should be able to chant 64 rounds daily. Can you do that? You may be able to do so for one or two days, or on the birthday of Lord Krsna or Lord Nrsimhadeva. However, if you try to do so daily, after two or three days you will get sick and become mad. You cannot do so. The ability to do so is also the mercy of Krsna. If Krsna is happy, then by His causeless mercy He will take away all your anarthas and give you ruci (taste) at once – taste in chanting the holy name, taste in Vaisnava-seva, taste in hearing, taste in worshipping, taste in cooking and all other devotional activities will come. This is also the mercy of Krsna.

[Vedesu]

 

Thank you Vedesu! Does the above quote refer to raganuga bhakti or vaidhi bhakti? I assume it refers to raganuga bhakti. Am I correct?

 

Thank you.

 

Her Servant and yours.

 

Technically, the prayer quoted above from The Nectar of Devotion is an example of submission to Krsna by very feelingly offering prayers. But the analogy within the prayer--- the spontaneous attraction and devotion which the devotee is aspiring for, is an example of raganuga bhakti. So, yes, you are correct. I have always found this prayer to be one of the simplest examples given by Srila Prabhupada for understanding raganuga.

[indulekhadasi]

Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love.

[Beggar]

 

 

From "Anartha-nivrtti" by Sripad Bhakti Gaurava Narasingha Maharaja,

 

In Bhakti-sandarbha, Srila Jiva Gosvami outlines the gradual process to spiritual realization:

<dir> "prathamam namnah sravanam antahkarana-suddhy-artham apeksyam suddhe cantah-karane rupa-sravanena tad-udaya-yoyata bhavati / samyag-udite ca rupe gunanam sphuranam sampadyate / sampanne ca gunanam sphurane parikara-vaisistyena tad-vaisistyam sampadyate / tatas tesu nama-rupa-guna-parikaresu samyak sphuritesu lilanam sphuranam susthu bhavati /

"First it is expected that one should hear the Lord's names in order to purify the heart. Once the mind and intelligence have been purified in this way, one can hear about Krsna's form, through which one's qualification to visualize it is obtained. When the form of the Lord has been clearly visualized, one can experience His qualities. Once these have been clearly understood, one develops one's own individual spiritual characteristics through the particular characteristics of the Lord's associates. Thus, once the name, form, qualities and associates of the Lord have been realized, a clear realization of Krsna's activities will follow."

</dir> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura confirms:

<dir> adhikara avicara rupanuga kore na, anartha-anvita dase rasa-siksa deya na

"The followers of Sri Rupa Gosvami are never neglectful in assessing anyone's spiritual qualifications. The followers of Sri Rupa never instruct a servant who is engrossed in material impediments about the science of rasa (intimate devotional mellows)." (Prakrta-rasa-sata-dushini)

rati age, sraddha pache rupanuga bole na, krama patha chadi siddhi rupanuga bole na

"The followers of Sri Rupa never preach that transcendental attachment is reached before one develops pure faith. The rupanugas never teach that the perfection of devotion can be reached by abandoning the consecutive order of developmental stages on the path." (Prakrta-rasa-sata-dushini)

sadhana chadile bhava udaya to haya na, raganuga janile-i sadhana to chade na

"If the preliminary practices of devotional service (sadhana) are neglected, then the awakening of ecstatic emotions (bhava) can never occur. Even one who has attained realization of spontaneous devotional service (raganuga-bhakti) should never give up practicing the regulative principles of devotional service"." (Prakrta-rasa-sata-dushini)

</dir>

[indulekhadasi]

And anyway, isn't chanting a part of raganuga bhakti? If we were on the platform of raganuga bhakti, I would think we would want to chant MORE than 16 rounds, chanting would be almost impossible to stop.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

A MORNING WALK CONVERSATION

 

Alachua, Florida USA, May 27, 2001

Srila Narayana Maharaja: As you like. According to your stage. But why not do other things? Sadhana bhajan, loud kirtana? Why do you want to jump?

Devotee: We have to do everything.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Not everything. If you jump you will fall down. Do your practices from the beginning. Anartha nivrti. You should try to take what is favorable to the process -- very strongly. And give up unfavorable things very strictly. Try first to control krodha-vegam, jihva-vegam, and udaropastha-vegam. You should try to do this.

[Vedesu]

 

Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love.

 

So if we are not advanced (like me) then to get to raganuga bhakti we will have to follow vaidhi bhakti first, isn't it?

 

Yes, this is true. However, it depends upon the depth of our mood. One person may diligently chant 16 rounds and follow the 4 regulative principles for 30 or 40 years without developing much of a taste (due to the fact that bhakti is not a mechanical process) while for another person that taste may come fairly quickly. One of the nine processes of bhakti (along with sravanam kirtanam, vishno smaranam, etc.) is vandanam, offering prayers to the Lord with great feeling. Causeless mercy descends according to our hankering and greed to receive it. In that regard, here is another excerpt from the 9th Chapter of Nectar of Devotion:

 

 

In the same Nārada-pañcarātra, there is another expression of submission, wherein the devotee says, "My dear Lord, O lotus-eyed one, when will that day come when on the bank of the Yamunā I shall become just like a madman and continue to chant Your holy name while incessant tears flow from my eyes?" This is another perfectional stage. Lord Caitanya also desired that "a moment will appear unto me as twelve years of time, and the whole world will appear to me as vacant on account of not seeing You, my dear Lord." One should feelingly pray and become eager to render his particular type of service to the Lord. This is the teaching of all great devotees, especially Lord Caitanya.

 

In other words, one should learn how to cry for the Lord. One should learn this small technique, and he should be very eager and actually cry to become engaged in some particular type of service. This is called laulyam, and such tears are the price for the highest perfection. If one develops this laulyam, or excessive eagerness for meeting and serving the Lord in a particular way, that is the price to enter into the kingdom of God. Otherwise, there is no material calculation for the value of the ticket by which one can enter the kingdom of God. The only price for such entrance is this laulyam lālasāmayī, or desire and great eagerness.

[Vedesu]

 

And anyway, isn't chanting a part of raganuga bhakti? If we were on the platform of raganuga bhakti, I would think we would want to chant MORE than 16 rounds, chanting would be almost impossible to stop.

 

Yes indeed. See post 8 above. When one has developed ruci, a genuine taste, then it will be so very natural to chant 64 rounds a day, or more. And one will weep while chanting. Raganuga doesn't mean one stops chanting his/her rounds or following the rules and regulations, it just means that all these things become delicious, extremely tasteful.

[krsna]

 

 

From "Anartha-nivrtti" by Sripad Bhakti Gaurava Narasingha Maharaja,

 

In Bhakti-sandarbha, Srila Jiva Gosvami outlines the gradual process to spiritual realization:

<DIR>"prathamam namnah sravanam antahkarana-suddhy-artham apeksyam suddhe cantah-karane rupa-sravanena tad-udaya-yoyata bhavati / samyag-udite ca rupe gunanam sphuranam sampadyate / sampanne ca gunanam sphurane parikara-vaisistyena tad-vaisistyam sampadyate / tatas tesu nama-rupa-guna-parikaresu samyak sphuritesu lilanam sphuranam susthu bhavati /

"First it is expected that one should hear the Lord's names in order to purify the heart. Once the mind and intelligence have been purified in this way, one can hear about Krsna's form, through which one's qualification to visualize it is obtained. When the form of the Lord has been clearly visualized, one can experience His qualities. Once these have been clearly understood, one develops one's own individual spiritual characteristics through the particular characteristics of the Lord's associates. Thus, once the name, form, qualities and associates of the Lord have been realized, a clear realization of Krsna's activities will follow."

</DIR>Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura confirms:

<DIR>adhikara avicara rupanuga kore na, anartha-anvita dase rasa-siksa deya na

"The followers of Sri Rupa Gosvami are never neglectful in assessing anyone's spiritual qualifications. The followers of Sri Rupa never instruct a servant who is engrossed in material impediments about the science of rasa (intimate devotional mellows)." (Prakrta-rasa-sata-dushini)

rati age, sraddha pache rupanuga bole na, krama patha chadi siddhi rupanuga bole na

"The followers of Sri Rupa never preach that transcendental attachment is reached before one develops pure faith. The rupanugas never teach that the perfection of devotion can be reached by abandoning the consecutive order of developmental stages on the path." (Prakrta-rasa-sata-dushini)

sadhana chadile bhava udaya to haya na, raganuga janile-i sadhana to chade na

"If the preliminary practices of devotional service (sadhana) are neglected, then the awakening of ecstatic emotions (bhava) can never occur. Even one who has attained realization of spontaneous devotional service (raganuga-bhakti) should never give up practicing the regulative principles of devotional service"." (Prakrta-rasa-sata-dushini)

 

nice quote about not jumping...without undergoing anartha-nivrtti...to the higher levels of KC... </DIR>

[theist]

 

I used to do the basic sadhanna - 16 rounds,the morning program, taking only prasadam , harer nama reading the sastras etc...

I stopped because everything was complication on top of complication.

Just the chanting was a mine field of possible offenses, not to mention making prasadam and all the other activities.

Why should a path towards God's mercy be so fraught with hundreds of hoops to jump through.

Just the anxiety of trying to 'get it right', makes the workaday world look like a walk in the park.

And then there's the guru initiation thing...the deepest briar patch of complications and dangers.

 

I can really identify with what you are going through. You are not alone by any means. I have worked through a lot of this myself and maybe something I have learned can be of some help to you. I hope so.

 

Concerning the basic sadhana you described. I have also had periods where I did the basic sadhana on a regular basis. My problem is I have never been able to sustain it for any appreciable amount of time. I am talking of a few months or weeks at a stretch then I would become distracted and slacken off. Either I would fall back into sex or smoking pot or just become lazy about chanting or something.

 

I would then feel bad about my failure, become despondent and feel the sentiment as you have expressed, "What's the use?"

 

Then I had an extremely valuable realization that has brought such peace to my mind over this whole issue.

 

Sadhana means practice. I am at the beginning level. That means I am practicing the practice. It is understood by the Lord that I will fall many times while learning to walk but what father does not know in advance that his child will fall many times while going from crawling to walking. Krsna never imposed any pressure on me nor did His devotee. Other beginners did however and I allowed them to and even intensified that pressure in my own mind. This is the nature of kanistha's associating with kanisthas and not being able to discern who they really should be listening to and who they should be ignoring.

 

I have accepted my position as being BELOW the vaidhi-bhakti level. But whatever small amount of progress I make towards Krsna will stay with me forever and Krsna will help me increase it and grow.

 

I accept the fact that I am unable to keep up with others in this respect and have learned to wish those ahead of me Godspeed in their quest for pure Krsna consciousness. May their progress ever accelerate. I am moving at my own pace and working through my own issues and am not in competetion with anyone or under the thumb of anyone else and so feel no pressure to live up to the standards of others. This has afforded me a certain sense of freedom that I will never give up.

 

Concerning taking only prasadam. That is the vaisnava standard but I am not a vaisnava so it is not yet my standard. I do however like to chant the Lord's names before eating and spend a few moments remembering my dependence on Krsna for even my basic bodily needs. Sometimes I just stuff something into my mouth thoughtlessly. Well I need to improve in all areas and this is just another.

 

Concerning intitiation. I accept the definition that initiation is a by-product of the reception of transcendental knowledge and I am to some degree on the path to initiation. I see no need to make a formal declaration to any one guru and vow to keep up a certain sadhana practice and worship that person as a manifestation of God. He may be but I am not there yet so no need to obssess over it.

 

 

Yes the workaday world is easier. The path to hell is paved with gold and it's very level walking. No struggling up the hills and mountains or going through the proverbial valleys of darkness that comes with honest serious introspection and trying to improve our lives. But then hell is not such a desireable destination either. We all have to spend time wandering in the desert before we make it to the promised land.

 

So if I can offer some advice it would be this. "Remember Krsna and never forget Krsna." Let that be sum of your path. KEEP IT AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. Keep chanting if even just occasionally throughout the day. Expect the mercy of the Lord to fall upon you despite your inability to qualify yourself for it. Afterall mercy means we are being granted something more then we are qualified for anyway. We cannot earn God by our own piety. "The righteousness of man is but filthy rags before the Lord." -Bible

 

And be thankful that this nightmare of birth and death is coming to an end for you. How do I know this? It is obvious. You have a human form and are actively seeking the Lord. "Seek and ye shall find." Such a rare thing. Be thankful, be happy, you are closing in on an eternity filled with the bliss which comes from loving God.

 

Hare Krsna

[indulekhadasi]

 

Yes, this is true. However, it depends upon the depth of our mood. One person may diligently chant 16 rounds and follow the 4 regulative principles for 30 or 40 years without developing much of a taste (due to the fact that bhakti is not a mechanical process) while for another person that taste may come fairly quickly. One of the nine processes of bhakti (along with sravanam kirtanam, vishno smaranam, etc.) is vandanam, offering prayers to the Lord with great feeling. Causeless mercy descends according to our hankering and greed to receive it. In that regard, here is another excerpt from the 9th Chapter of Nectar of Devotion:

 

I definitely agree with you that simply by chanting 16 rounds and follow the 4 regs you might not get any ruci. Yesterday I was reading The Heart of Krishna by BP Puri Maharaja and I realized that mostly this was due to Vaishnava aparadha. I know this is off topic but after reading your post this is what came into my mind.

[Guest]

In Samvat 1876, on the eighth day of the first fortnight of the month of Margshirsh Shriji Maharaj was seated in the Durbar of Shri Dada Khachar at Gadhada. He was clad in all white. Saints and the devotees were seated before him.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

Shriji Maharaj said to them : ‘‘The divine form of Lord Shri Krishna should be mediated along Radhaji. Even if during such meditation a devotee does not see the divine form of Shri Krishna in his heart, he should not stop meditating. One who persists in such divine pursuit is sure to earn the grace of God. The Lord will be attached to him due to his intense devotation.

 

Jay Swaminarayan<O:P></O:P>

[sanatan]

theist,

 

regarding post #17:

 

Thanks for openly sharing where you're at...and you've also happened to have described my own spiritual experience, situation, and realizations quite accurately....they're in many ways identical to yours, but you have the great literary gift for expressing it all.

 

And cbrahma...I also know where you're coming from, very well.

 

I've been through many gung-ho, 16-round, follow-all-the-principles periods, but now I just keep a 54-bead mala on the bedpost, and naturally wake up about 5, chant three or four 108-bead rounds very softly or silently so as not to wake my wife, and go back to sleep.

 

I heard Tamal Krishna Maharaja say in a lecture many years ago that if once you chant the Names sincerely, Krishna will never let you forget him, even if you do your best to forget or neglect him. In my case, that's proven to be true...a day has not passed in 25 years when I haven't done, read or even just thought something related to Krishna and devotional service, even if I've been badly messed up on some substance or otherwise very fallen and negative psychologically.

 

theist, cbrahma, me...we're marked men, like it or not.

[Beggar]

 

theist, cbrahma, me...we're marked men, like it or not.

That must be the qualification for being here, count me in.

[theist]

 

I heard Tamal Krishna Maharaja say in a lecture many years ago that if once you chant the Names sincerely, Krishna will never let you forget him, even if you do your best to forget or neglect him.

 

I have often said and way more often realized that for me the Lord's grace has been He never let's me fall totally into forgetfullness thinking I am happy in maya. I am a maya addict and Krsna reminds me of my miserable dis-ease daily.

 

You know sanatan, I can't help but feel there are many of us around.

 

Maybe we will start our own club. The antithesis to the gopi-bhava club. We are the not fit for vaidi-bhakti club. Beggar's says he's in.

[gHari]

CC Adi 5.224 quotes Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu (1.2.239):

 

"My dear friend, if you are indeed attached to your worldly friends, do not look at the smiling face of Lord Govinda as He stands on the bank of the YamunA at KezIghATa. Casting sidelong glances, He places His flute to His lips, which seem like newly blossomed twigs. His transcendental body, bending in three places, appears very bright in the moonlight."

[suchandra]

 

I stopped because everything was complication on top of complication.

 

Better you should have stopped everything else but not the chanting.

 

The Golden Age

This age is called Kali-yuga, or the dark iron age of quarrel and hypocrisy. It is considered a very unfortunate age as spiritual knowledge is covered and almost the entire population of the planet is performing in unlimited sinful activities.

 

As a result of this sinful activity there are many natural disturbances such as earthquakes, irregular rains and terrible diseases.

 

This situation has created a general climate of anxiety and despair. Because of this disturbed atmosphere it is difficult to practice most of the spiritual methods which are recommended in the great Scriptures of the world.

 

There is, however, hope. As the situation is so dark and because Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is so merciful He appeared on this planet five hundred years ago in India as Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to give the Yuga dharma, the recommended religious principles for this age.

 

The simple process given by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu for driving away the effects of Kali-yuga and reestablishing spiritual consciousness is to chant the names of God.

 

The same recommendation is given in many of the worlds great Scriptures. Lord Caitanya recommended that we chant a very special mantra, called the maha mantra, meaning the great chanting for delivering the mind, which is a universal and powerful combination of the names of God:

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

This chanting purifies the heart and mind and enables us to taste transcendental ecstasy on the spiritual platform.

 

As this chanting spreads more and more the dark iron age of Kali-yuga will be transformed into a brilliant Golden Age of spiritual reawakening.

[cbrahma]

Thank you to everybody for taking the time to reply.

 

Especially to Baba, Theist and sanata for their non-judgmental, honest humble and practical advice.

 

The problem was not a lack of taste (ruci) as much as the unbearable stress and anxiety that everything connected to this type of yoga produced.

I'm quite capable of dealing with complications. I'm a computer programmer and yet the level of stress this process added to my life was unacceptable.

 

The concept it gave me of God as a sadistic overseer watching this pathetic creature jump through so many hoops in some kind of regulation marathon was, quite frankly, frightening.

 

Being told this was a process of developing love was so strange and incomprehensible I had to leave it.