Jesus is the Reason - Part II

[HerServant]

Guruvani wrote:

 

The Christian conception of Christ, God and the power of faith is indeed a very beautiful religious conception.

The Christian theology represents centuries of human religious thought and refinement.

Though, I find it to be very beautiful and inspiring, I do not accept the historical Jesus of Christianity.

 

But, in the ultimate issue does it really matter if Jesus was a real person or not?

Doesn't Paramatma understand that this beautiful religious conception is really aimed at him and thereby accepts this religious sentiment as sincere devotion to God?

 

Guruvani raises I believe many interesting and honest points of inquiry and his above is no less interesting.

 

First, one does not have to accept the Jesus of history just as one does not have to accept the Krsna of history.

 

It is the Krsna of faith that one must accept, because all of Lord Krsna's transcendental pastimes are revealed only to the faithful. Further, the Krsna of Faith reveals pastimes which are beyond time and space.

 

This is also true for Jesus. The Jesus of Faith is beyond historical evidence. For example, Jesus of the Virgin Birth, Jesus walking on water, .. this Jesus has no basis in scientific fact.

 

Yet it is this Jesus that is the Jesus of faith .. the Savior Lord, who would renounce His divinity and stoop to be born a helpless babe in a stable.

 

Whether your faith is in Jesus and you go to Krsna through Him, or whether you faith is in Krsna and Jesus is an inspiration, the reason for the season remains the same: .. That God's love will stop at nothing to shatter our heart of stone and bring us back home ... back to Godhead.

 

Her Servant and yours.

[gHari]

Someone listening to their iPod reading this thread on their computer is debating the existence of electricity. It all seems so far-fetched at Christmas.

[Kulapavana]

Quite frankly I lost the fascination with Jesus of Nazareth very long time ago. Even if all that canonical Gospels say about him is true (which I doubt very seriously) I don't derive much of real inspiration from these stories nowadays.

[suchandra]

 

The Jesus of Faith is beyond historical evidence.

 

There're parallels like all the troubles the Pandavas had to undergo and David when he's crying to the Lord, "I looked on my right hand and beheld, but there was no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul." Psalm 142:4

No one cared for this hero who slew Goliath and saved Israel. David, a man after God's own heart, found himself abandoned by all. In the next Psalm, 143:4, David is totally overwhelmed and despondent,

"Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate."

Looks very similiar what Arjuna must have felt when he said,

"I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to dispel it even if I win a prosperous, unrivaled kingdom on earth with sovereignty like the demigods in heaven."

[gHari]

 

Quite frankly I lost the fascination with Jesus of Nazareth very long time ago. Even if all that canonical Gospels say about him is true (which I doubt very seriously) I don't derive much of real inspiration from these stories nowadays.

But can't you see the difference in the people around you at Christmas as they all chant Merry Christmas? You can see the effects of electricity all around.

 

We need to see beyond the words - it is in the heart where it all happens.

[davidbrucehughes]

One day long ago when I had just joined the temple, a visitor argued that the stories of Krsna in the scriptures were not true, therefore we should not put our faith in them. I found myself saying, "It doesn't matter whether they are literally true in the material sense; what matters is that these stories convey spiritual values that transcend space and time. I would still dedicate my life in service to these truths, these values, even if it were possible to prove that they are materially untrue, because they resonate with my personal spiritual values."

 

Similarly, the spiritual values expressed in the story of Jesus Christ resound with the vibrations of pure bhakti and the eternal values of spiritual life. Thus they have great value, even if it were possible to prove that they are not literally true. Anyone who cannot feel these stories as inspiring needs a heart transplant, for theirs has turned to stone.

 

love,

Baba

[theist]

What in the Christ story is so unbelievable? Especially by those that claim to accept the stories in the Bhagvatam and other Puranas as historical reality.

 

Was it the accounts of Him walking on water? Or healing? Or appearing and disappearing at will? These are not even the perfection of the soul but ordinary events for accomplished yogis?

 

Even when the person of Srila Prabhupada speaks of Jesus as an avatar of Krsna these same people who claim SP as the guru, ignore him and proclaim the contrary. Very strange. But such is the nature of the conditioned mind.

 

Perhaps all the posturing of Srila Prabhupada having been accepted by them as their guru is just so much posturing. Exactly like the claim to millions that they are followers of Christ.

 

In any case I challenge any one of us who consider the teaching of Lord Jesus Christ preliminary or elementary spiritual life to show where they have been able to practice any of them to perfection. When you challenge yourself in this way even mentally, you may will start to see what real Christianity is all about.

 

We can start with the lesson of forgivness.

[suchandra]

 

What in the Christ story is so unbelievable? Especially by those that claim to accept the stories in the Bhagvatam and other Puranas as historical reality.

 

Was it the accounts of Him walking on water? Or healing? Or appearing and disappearing at will? These are not even the perfection of the soul but ordinary events for accomplished yogis?

 

Even when the person of Srila Prabhupada speaks of Jesus as an avatar of Krsna these same people who claim SP as the guru, ignore him and proclaim the contrary. Very strange. But such is the nature of the conditioned mind.

 

Perhaps all the posturing of Srila Prabhupada having been accepted by them as their guru is just so much posturing. Exactly like the claim to millions that they are followers of Christ.

 

In any case I challenge any one of us who consider the teaching of Lord Jesus Christ preliminary or elementary spiritual life to show where they have been able to practice any of them to perfection. When you challenge yourself in this way even mentally, you may will start to see what real Christianity is all about.

 

We can start with the lesson of forgivness.

 

Some might argue since Christianity is for so long predominant it has so many branches that mostly people can't advance to the core, are diverted by so many misinterpretations. It was Dr. Klaus Klostermaier, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Manitoba , who wrote that the Hare Krishna movement in the West more closely resembles Christianity than it does modern Hinduism, while its "neo-Vedic art" resembles 19th century Nazarene art.

 

“A SOURCE OF INSPIRATION”

Krishna Consciousness and the Judeo-Christian Tradition

A Guide to Interfaith Discussion

 

Dr. Klaus Klostermaier

 

John Plott has done elaborate studies comparing Christianity and Vaishnavaism, particularly the teachings and theology of Ramanuja to St. Bonaventura. Geoffrey Parrinder wrote The Significance of the Bhagavad-gita for Christian Theology and William Blanchard entitled his Ph.D dissertation: "An Examination of the Relation of the New Testament to the Bhagavad-gita."

 

And perhaps it was Dr. Klaus Klostermaier, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Manitoba , who wrote that the Hare Krishna movement in the West more closely resembles Christianity than it does modern Hinduism, while its "neo-Vedic art" resembles 19th century Nazarene art.

 

Dr. Klostermaier has published numerous academic articles and books, including his own personal story, Hindu and Christian in Vrindaban. He points out "that Vaishnavaism, like Christianity, is a living religion with millions of adherents. It is numerically the largest segment of modern Hinduism, with a history going back thousands of years. So we are not talking about some small sect but, rather, mainstream Hinduism.

 

"The first point to understand," says Dr. Klostermaier, "is that Vaishnavaism is as pervasive in India as Christianity is in the Western countries. It represents traditional Hinduism and claims to contain all that is genuinely Hindu. So Vishnu worship, or later, the worship of Krishna, is something very much akin to the worship of God or, later, Jesus, in the Judaeo-Christian tradition."

 

According to Dr. Klostermaier, Vaishnavas, like their Christian brethren, view Jesus Christ differently. "Some Vaishnavas consider him an avatara or some kind of divine incarnation. Others see him as a great teacher of moral codes and ethical principles, a saint whose selfless spirit of sacrifice is a great inspiration to mankind. Then there are those who see him as a miracle worker, a sort of yogi...There are quite diverse conceptions of Christ both in the minds of Vaishnavas and in the minds of Christians.

 

"Peter’s confession to Jesus, saying, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God’...Now, this becomes a difficult passage to explain to Hindus...Isvar ke putr—‘the son of God’—is a very common expression in Hindu India. In the epics and Puranas there are countless stories of ‘sons of gods’---Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva beget sons from princesses and queens. Hindus will say: ‘What is so special about Jesus? We are all sons of God.’ So the idea does not convey the notion of uniqueness as it does in the West."

 

Sudhindra Chandra Chakravarti, in his 1969 book, Philosophical Foundation of Bengal Vaishnavaism, noted the similarities between Vaishnavaism and Christianity in terms of loving relationships with a personal God.

 

"Like the advocates of Bengal Vaishnavaism, Christianity has availed itself of the rich imagery of human relationships to represent the five stages of religious feeling. The quietistic type of Christian devotion familiar in all periods of Christian history corresponds to the shantabhakti of Bengal Vaishnavaism. The figure of Mary, sister of Martha, at the feet of Jesus is an apt illustration of this type of religious experience.

 

"The second stage called dasya, which is characterized by the feeling of being a slave or a servant, has its counterpart in the devotion of Paul, the bondslave of Christ. An unbroken line of devout spirits following Paul is known to have expressed the utter devotion of heart in terms of slavery and servitude. Once, while washing his disciples’ feet, Jesus said, ‘I am among you as he that serveth.’ This fact reveals Jesus’ attitude towards the dasya, aspect of devotion.

 

"The sakhya stage has its counterpart in the relationship between Jesus and his disciples, indicated by his own words, ‘No longer do I call you servants...but now I call you friends.’ The devotion in terms of the parent and child relation is quite fundamental to Christianity. According to the Christian faith, God is the eternal Father, and all are His children.

 

"The vatsalya stage of Bengal Vaishnavaism, however, is concerned only with the parental feeling toward the Lord. It has its parallels in the New Testament picture of the wise men and the Christ child...The madhurya stage of bhakti finds its parallel in the mystical practices of medieval monasticism. The Roman Catholic nun is taught to regard her soul as the bride of Christ. In Protestant teaching, the church is regarded as the bride of Christ."

 

Dr. Klostermaier acknowledges these and other parallels between Christianity and Vaishnavaism—religious traditions which emphasize worshipping a personal God. "In Christianity, too, you have highly personalistic ideas, like those of the medieval Beghines—female devotees of medieval Germany. They envisioned the playfulness of God in highly personalistic terms, according to private revelations, and there were other, similar schools of thought. The Puranas—like the Bible—deal with creation, history of dynasties, biographies of saints moral laws, human wisdom, the first created being, a Noah-type personality, the birth of the saviour, miracles of all sorts. These things are there and they can be elaborated upon with volumes of commentary."

 

Dr. Klostermaier compares the devotion to God found in the Song of Songs, conveyed through the religious imagery of a conjugal relationship, to Jayadeva’s Gita-Govinda. He speaks of The Imitation of Christ as a classic of devotional literature. He observes that St. John’s Dark Night of the Soul could be seen as a Christian version of viraha-bhakti—love of God in the mood of separation.

 

The temporary loss of the vision of God, viraha-bhakti, was spoken of by St. Teresa as "the great dereliction," and Madame Guyon called it "mystic death." This makes one mad with anticipation, and increases one’s sense of devotion. Christian mystics experienced this level of devotion to God, and exhibited the bodily symptoms which accompany it.

 

"But I think you are looking for parallels in Christian and Vaishnava traditions," says Dr. Klostermaier, "and this can be found quite readily. In fact, if you look long and hard enough, you can find points of similarity all the way through; and you can even reconcile many of the obvious differences that the two religions have come to engender.

 

"You can see it in the basic practices of these religions. Certain key practices of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism are found in Christian mysticism as well, and through this you can find many parallels. But again, it is quite difficult to generalize. You see, Jiva Goswami does not represent all Gaudiya Vaishnavas; and Bonaventure and Thomas Aquinas do not represent the mass of Christian believers.

 

"Still, if you speak in general terms, there are certain generic spiritual practices and ideals that the two traditions share, especially if you look into the monastic communities.

 

"There is the sense of worshipping God in a regulated way; liturgical ceremonies; temple worship; subduing the senses; self-control; loving one’s neighbor; communal worship; meditation; prayer. You can see these things, for example, in certain early Franciscan orders—a religion of song and dance. It is currently seeing some revival. Here is a good parallel for what one might see in a Gaudiya Vaishnava community. It, too, is an exuberant sort of piety. Bonaventure was a Franciscan. So I do see a similarity there. You know the Franciscans were even vegetarians—for a large part, they still are. I think there are certain things you can look for in all genuinely spiritual traditions. The sense of love, compassion, commitment."

 

Dr. Klostermaier compares the worship of God in plural form as Radha and Krishna in the Vaishnava tradition to the Christian Trinitarian concept of God. "The inner, divine relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is fundamentally a relationship of love—profound, unending spiritual communication...The Western theological context in which the love of Radha and Krishna could perhaps be best understood is precisely that of Trinitarian theology.

 

"For the Christian, the Trinity represents the deepest mystery of faith...Similarly, the Radha-Krishna relationship cannot be fathomed by paralleling it with romantic love poetry or late medieval Marian devotion, as some writers have tried to do. The mystery of these things goes very deep, and there is no earthly symbolism that can accurately convey its truth."

 

 

Go on to: 07 - The Holy Name

[Kulapavana]

 

What in the Christ story is so unbelievable? Especially by those that claim to accept the stories in the Bhagvatam and other Puranas as historical reality.

 

Was it the accounts of Him walking on water? Or healing? Or appearing and disappearing at will? These are not even the perfection of the soul but ordinary events for accomplished yogis?

 

Actually, what I have always found hard to believe (even as a Catholic, before I gave up that tradition) was the very central idea of Christianity that God have sent His son to die on the cross in order to redeem others, like some brutal offering or barbaric trade rquired by a cruel god. To me it is a simple guilt trip story that the early preachers built into their religion to convert others. I know many people who willingly died for much less, without any fanfare.

 

I know the early history of the Church very well through formal training in a Catholic high school and I laugh at people who accept the current version of the Bible as some original and unchanged account from the eyewitness disciples.

 

Walking on water is completely irrelevant

[Kulapavana]

 

But can't you see the difference in the people around you at Christmas as they all chant Merry Christmas? You can see the effects of electricity all around.

 

We need to see beyond the words - it is in the heart where it all happens.

 

Yes, I see that very same energy propelling people to butcher countless thousands of people in the name of their religion. I see millions of these so called Christians supporting American "holy war" with these 'awful Muslim fanatics' which has led to at least half a million innocent lives lost and untold suffering.

 

Merry Christmas to you, brother, pass on the ammo...

[krishnaleela]

 

Yes, I see that very same energy propelling people to butcher countless thousands of people in the name of their religion. I see millions of these so called Christians supporting American "holy war" with these 'awful Muslim fanatics' which has led to at least half a million innocent lives lost and untold suffering.

 

Merry Christmas to you, brother, pass on the ammo...

 

Yep. All genuine bhakthi mood and good people and all that. But lets not confuse the inner worth of Jesus's sermon on the mount with the ridiculous institutionalization under his name. The colonial history of abuse is rooted in the macrodoctrines of these superiority-preaching world-advising abrahamic cults.

[HerServant]

 

Actually, what I have always found hard to believe (even as a Catholic, before I gave up that tradition) was the very central idea of Christianity that God have sent His son to die on the cross in order to redeem others, like some brutal offering or barbaric trade rquired by a cruel god. To me it is a simple guilt trip story that the early preachers built into their religion to convert others. I know many people who willingly died for much less, without any fanfare.

 

I know the early history of the Church very well through formal training in a Catholic high school and I laugh at people who accept the current version of the Bible as some original and unchanged account from the eyewitness disciples.

 

Walking on water is completely irrelevant

 

"(even as a Catholic, before I gave up that tradition)" - is that right?

 

Were you fasting, receiving communion, and the sacrament of reconcilliation weekly? Were you praying the rosary and meditating on its sacred mysteries daily?

 

These are things that practicing catholics do.

 

As a catholic, did you surrender your life completely to Mary? If not, when did you renounce your vows and withdraw your devotion from Mary Queen of the Universe?

 

 

Prayer of Total Consecration

By St. Maximilian Kolbe

 

Immaculata, Queen of heaven and earth, refuge of sinners and our most loving Mother, God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to you. I, N..., a repentant sinner, cast myself at your feet humbly imploring you to take me with all that I am and have, wholly to yourself as your possession and property. Please make of me, of all my powers of soul and body, of my whole life, death and eternity, whatever most pleases you.

 

If it pleases you, use all that I am and have without reserve, wholly to accomplish what was said of you: "She will crush your head," and, "You alone have destroyed all heresies in the world." Let me be a fit instrument in your immaculate and merciful hands for introducing and increasing your glory to the maximum in all the many strayed and indifferent souls, and thus help extend as far as possible the blessed kingdom of the most Sacred Heart of Jesus. For wherever you enter you obtain the grace of conversion and growth in holiness, since it is through your hands that all graces come to us from the most Sacred Heart of Jesus.

 

 

V. Allow me to praise you, O sacred Virgin.

R. Give me strength against your enemies.

 

 

St. Maximillian Kolbe

 

St. Max gave his life for Mary and others. He was a Catholic priest that lived as a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp.

 

If you like spending your time critizing others, then I would say that you found the right group (ISKCON?) . They seem to spend so much energy on lofty intellectual topics, being "topmost devotees", putting Jesus Christ as at best equal to an ISKCON guru, and sometimes not even a guru at all.

 

Not me. The "good as Jesus" champions have all fallen down. And in case you haven't notice ALL teachers among ISKCON who have preached a message about Jesus have all fallen down or suffered greatly.

 

Anyone can offend Jesus and he tolerates, but His Blessed Mother does not.

 

But as for me, I will stick with trying to be a Catholic (and take inspiration from Srila Prabhupada's works), acknowledge my failings, make small attempts at living for others, and pray to our saints who have "clothed the naked", "fed the hungry", "cared for the sick and dying" and so on.

 

Finally, if you are still reading this, you can never understand why Jesus had to die unless you embrace His cross. Only He can reveal the mystery of His self sacrifice. You can start with asking why God sacrifices Himself as described in the Purusha Sukta Hymn:

 

 

Perspective on the Rg Vedic Purusa Sukta Hymn

by Bhakti Ananda Goswami

Posted March 26, 2003

 

Hare Krishna ! Jesu ki jaya !

Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga ki jaya !

 

Dear Devotees,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

Sri Baladeva Purusha as Yupa Dhvaja...Why the Cross is the Symbol of Christ

 

Understanding the Rig Vedic Purusha Sukta Hymn

 

At the beginning of every cosmic manifestation, the Second Person of the Godhead, Lord Baladeva, the Servitor Lord, Original Spiritual Master and Savior of all devotees, sacrifices Himself as the cosmic Purusha, for the creation, maintenance and redemption of the entire universe. The Rishis (compare Hebrew Roeh 'Seers') assist Him at His Self sacrifice. The remnants of His sacrifice become the food of all beings. Commemoration of His sacrifice becomes the central rite / act of worship in the whole universe. His consecrated Body / Remnants / Sesha or PURUSHA-IDA / Prasadam are the 'remnants of His sacrifice' sacramental food of the twice born. All of the Devas are born from His sacrifice. From His head the brahmanas are manifest, from His arms the kshatriyas, from His belly the vaishas and from His legs the sudras are manifest. Thus the varnashrama dharma sacramental 'Mystical Social Body' of Purusha is the primal cause of theocentric human civilization and all sacramental social life.

 

The Vedic sacrifices all began with this cosmic Self-sacrifice of Purusha Yupa Dhavja, and ultimately commemorated His 'once-and-all-sufficient' Self- offering. Thus Purusha or Yagna Purusha as 'Self Sacrifice Personified' was called Yupa Dhvaja ('Stake-flagged') because the instrument of His cosmic sacrifice was the sacred Axis Mundi Yupa Stake, Cross or Post to which He was fixed in the primal Purusha Sukta Hymn, for His cosmic sacrifice. Thus in the Vedic Sacrificial system, sacrificial victims were fixed to a post, pole or cross called a Yupa, in memory of Purusha's cosmic sacrifice. Since He was sacrificed on the cosmic Yupa Axis Mundi or 'Cross of all Creation', He was called Yupa Dhvaja....or the One Whose eternal emblem or symbol (or 'heraldic devise' for His Flag / Dhvaja ) was the instrument (Yupa Post) of His cosmic sacrifice.

 

All the Vedic sacrifices related to the Purusha Sukta were intercessory or ATONING in nature. Thus Vedic kings and brahmanas, JUST LIKE THE JEWS would perform great Vedic sacrifices to atone for the sins of the nation. This was still going on in India when Shakya Muni Buddha promoted His ahimsa doctrine to stop it. In fact a 'SCAPE GOAT' type of Vedic Rite was recently performed in Nepal, to cleanse the Nation of its bad karma for the assassination of its royal family.

 

The Apostolic Catholic and related Christian worship of Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Godhead Self-offered for the salvation of the whole universe, is the worship of Baladeva, the original Spiritual Master as Yupa Dhvaja, Who "takes away the sins of the world". Thus the sacramental social body of Christ in Catholicism is related to the mystical social body of Purusha Yupa Dhvaja or Yagna Purusha, and the Eucharist is Lord Jesus Purusha's Maha Prasadam. As the Second Person of the Godhead, He is the Original Spiritual Master and the Savior of all universes. None come to the Father but through, with, in and by Him.

 

So, please don't blaspheme Lord Baladeva as Purusha Yupa Dhvaja, and don't ridicule His Christian devotees for worshiping Him in His Sign of the Yupa or Cross, according to the ancient Vedic Tradition...as Yupa Dhvaja. He is the cosmic Redeemer Form of the Original Spiritual Master, Who has taken away the sins of the entire cosmic manifestation ! To really behold His Cross / Yupa is to see the FINAL END of all the universe's sins, as the central fact or Axis Mundi of all creation. In the Cross / Yupa of Lord Baladeva as Jesus Purusha, all things past and future, human and Divine, are finally reconciled IN HIS SELF-SACRIFICING LOVE.

 

An aspiring servant of the servants of Lord Baladeva as Yupa Dhvaja,

 

Bhakti Ananda Goswami

[tackleberry]

 

Yes, I see that very same energy propelling people to butcher countless thousands of people in the name of their religion. I see millions of these so called Christians supporting American "holy war" with these 'awful Muslim fanatics' which has led to at least half a million innocent lives lost and untold suffering.

 

Merry Christmas to you, brother, pass on the ammo...

 

It could be Krishna's plan, getting both sides to fight, because they have so much in common.

[Kulapavana]

 

But as for me, I will stick with trying to be a Catholic (and take inspiration from Srila Prabhupada's works), acknowledge my failings, make small attempts at living for others, and pray to our saints who have "clothed the naked", "fed the hungry", "cared for the sick and dying" and so on.

 

Finally, if you are still reading this, you can never understand why Jesus had to die unless you embrace His cross. Only He can reveal the mystery of His self sacrifice. You can start with asking why God sacrifices Himself as described in the Purusha Sukta Hymn

 

I'm happy for you, but Christianity was not working for me. My "pagan" forefathers were butchered en-masse in the name of Jesus and his cross so spare me the sermons about "embracing the cross", please.

 

As to Bhakti Ananda Goswami and his pet theories - they are not even decent conjectures in the sense of basic logic or scriptural accuracy. Primarily they are just wishful thinking and brazen twisting of facts to fit his theory. Lord Balaram sacrificing Himself as the original Purusha? That guy needs a therapy.

 

And as to the real Rig Vedic Purusha Sookta - the offering is not physical and Lord Vishnu does not need blood to satisfy His cravings or sense of justice.

[krishnaleela]

 

"(

Not me. The "good as Jesus" champions have all fallen down.

 

If there was one, there have been many, there are many and there will be many. Give up this "one and only" business.

 

 

But as for me, I will stick with trying to be a Catholic (and take inspiration from Srila Prabhupada's works), acknowledge my failings, make small attempts at living for others, and pray to our saints who have "clothed the naked", "fed the hungry", "cared for the sick and dying" and so on.

 

Here you are talking sense. Follow your religion; it is great unto itself. Notice you did NOT say here: trying to be a Catholic by believing Jesus is the one and only saviour for all humanity.

[Kulapavana]

 

It could be Krishna's plan, getting both sides to fight, because they have so much in common.

 

Yes, they do deserve each other, like Jews and Palestinians. It is a natural self-regulating mechanism: one hungry animal is kept in check by another hungry animal.

[HerServant]

 

I'm happy for you, but Christianity was not working for me. My "pagan" forefathers were butchered en-masse in the name of Jesus and his cross so spare me the sermons about "embracing the cross", please.

 

You said you were Catholic? Which ancestors are you refering to? You parents? Please provide details? If these "butchers" butchered you ancestors, then how is it that you were "Catholic"? Please explain.

 

 

As to Bhakti Ananda Goswami and his pet theories - they are not even decent conjectures in the sense of basic logic or scriptural accuracy. Primarily they are just wishful thinking and brazen twisting of facts to fit his theory. Lord Balaram sacrificing Himself as the original Purusha? That guy needs a therapy.

 

More criticism. What are your qualifications? Have you taken Sannyasi?

 

 

And as to the real Rig Vedic Purusha Sookta - the offering is not physical and Lord Vishnu does not need blood to satisfy His cravings or sense of justice.

 

BA Gosvami is very scholarly and his approach is academically sound. He includes references to history, tradition, archeology and linguistics in much of his writings. What are your academic qualifications?

 

you say "not physical" .. The purusha sukta self sacrifice is performed to create the entire cosmic (physical) manifestation!

 

But rather than debate you further, I refer you to Mary. Whatever you say about Jesus, you say about Her.

 

 

Regarding the Christian's Trinity, I believe it is called God, the Holy Ghost, and the son. Person in Krishna Consciousness accepts this by the name Visnu, Paramatma, and Jiva. God is a Person, the holy spirit or the supersoul is a person, and the living entity is also a person. Also, Mary is the representation of the energy of God. Either as internal energy Radharani or as external energy Durga, the energy of Godhead can be considered the mother of the living entities. But there is no clash between the Bible and the Vedas, simply some people formulate their personal ideas and cause quarrelings.

- Letter to Sivananda NY April 19, 1968

[Kulapavana]

 

More criticism. What are your qualifications? Have you taken Sannyasi?

 

since when is a title of sannyasa a measure of anything? qualified like Kirtanananda "Maharaja"?

 

I was born and raised in a Catholic tradition but as I became more aware of things I rejected that path. I developed an interest in yoga and Eastern spirituality when I was 13 or 14. My deeper ancestry was all pagan, Slavic druidism and American Indian shamanism. These people were killed en masse by the cross wielding butchers you call Christians. Still, I dont hold you responsible for any of their crimes. But your tradition IS responsible and I have not seen much effort to atone for these crimes.

 

anyway, we will never agree on this stuff, so why even bother? I'm happy with what I have, you are happy with what you have. Let's leave it at that. Peace, brother!

[gHari]

 

Yes, I see that very same energy propelling people to butcher countless thousands of people in the name of their religion. I see millions of these so called Christians supporting American "holy war" with these 'awful Muslim fanatics' which has led to at least half a million innocent lives lost and untold suffering.

 

Merry Christmas to you, brother, pass on the ammo...

Yes, people will continue to use God to support their own desires for fortune and fame, murder, theft and ego-maintenance. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah who can overcome their basic nature and approach the goal ... one in many millions. We are indeed little more than animals.

[suchandra]

 

You said you were Catholic? Which ancestors are you refering to? You parents? Please provide details? If these "butchers" butchered you ancestors, then how is it that you were "Catholic"? Please explain.

 

Looks like that Hindus are not realy interested in undestanding Christian mysticism/spirituality.

 

 

 

India's Christian community protests Hindu violence

<small>India Gazette

Thursday 27th December, 2007

 

</small>

 

 

In India, Christian community leaders have met the chief minister of Orissa province to protest the deaths of Christians at the hands of Hindu extremists.

 

The delegation led by Raphael Cheenath, the provincial archbishop, met Orissa Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik and demanded adequate security after communal violence left one dead and dozens injured.

 

He said members of his congregation were not safe, as they were being attacked by anti-social elements who were burning churches, setting fire to their houses and chanting slogans against them.

 

The Christian representative also demanded an inquiry by the Central Bureau of Investigation to find and arrest the perpetrators.

He told the chief minister that at least 50 churches in the district of Kandhamal have been damaged over the past four days.

 

The trouble began after a Hindu leader was attacked when he challenged the celebration of Christmas. He was injured in the attack and his group went on a rampage, burning dozen of churches, torching private and police vehicles and attacking houses of Christians.

[theist]

 

Actually, what I have always found hard to believe (even as a Catholic, before I gave up that tradition) was the very central idea of Christianity that God have sent His son to die on the cross in order to redeem others, like some brutal offering or barbaric trade rquired by a cruel god. To me it is a simple guilt trip story that the early preachers built into their religion to convert others. I know many people who willingly died for much less, without any fanfare.

 

I know the early history of the Church very well through formal training in a Catholic high school and I laugh at people who accept the current version of the Bible as some original and unchanged account from the eyewitness disciples.

 

Walking on water is completely irrelevant

 

Again you can't or won't see the difference between Christ and the mundane religion that grew as modern Christianity.Very negative thinking IMO.

 

Yes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is misunderstood. Jesus told His disciples "Pick up your cross and follow me." It is not that God sacrificed Jesus for the world sins it is rather Jesus sacrificed Himself to do the will of the Father and that is how the world can transcend the sinful nature.

 

He was giving the world an example to follow.

 

The fact that you don't accept the wrong view is good but the fact that you don't understand the proper view is evident and you should refrain from all your pontificating on the subject until you come to some clarity.

 

It is not enough to rail against the wrong conception. One must also present the true conception.

 

Sorry if my bluntness offends you but there it is.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

Going through the posts on this specific thread has been somewhat bizarre for me, and that is not in the least surprising, given that I am an interloper looking in a place where I simply don't belong here. Unlike most/all participants in this debate, I was born Hindu, and therefore carry around no hang-ups from any prior background or faith. Personally, I have no feelings, either of a positive or negative nature, about Christ. He may or may not be a divine messenger. It just doesn't impact on my personal quest for knowledge and truth. I still term myself an agnostic, for all my "academic" knowledge of generic Hindu and Gaudiya Vaishnava history and tradition. That I am irresistibly drawn to the Vedic/Puranic deities and Chaitanya Vaishnavism in particular is indubitable, however. Sure, I respect those who feel the necessity to include Jesus in their world views, even whilst surrendering their very beings at the feet of their gurus. At the same time, I certainly sympathise with those who see no good sense in clinging on to vestigial ropes or straws left over from another life literally.

 

As for Theist's words in relation to what Prabhupada stated on Jesus Christ, I think that everybody is aware of the fact that preaching doesn't have to be totally, factually siddhantic at all times. There are many, many instances in which Bhaktivedanta Swami uttered things to which he himself quite clearly did not assign much importance, but that he felt were in order perhaps to encourage his mostly Western audience in their devotional practices. The reason behind and purpose of this generosity seems more than obvious, in light of his astoundingly successful career as a preceptor in Europe, America and Australia.

[Kulapavana]

 

The fact that you don't accept the wrong view is good but the fact that you don't understand the proper view is evident and you should refrain from all your pontificating on the subject until you come to some clarity.

 

It is not enough to rail against the wrong conception. One must also present the true conception.

 

 

I dont really care about the "true conception of Jesus", whatever you or others claim it to be. It is nothing but your projection of what that religion should be. If it works for you, great!

 

I am interested in the conception of bhakti as given by our Gaudiya parampara. It is a big subject and I dont have much time.

 

As to the charge of my pontificating, I dont feel very guilty. I simply see so much evil done by people who claim to be Christians that I have no attraction to that tradition at all. You judge the merit of a school by the quality of students it teaches.

[theist]

 

I dont really care about the "true conception of Jesus", whatever you or others claim it to be. It is nothing but your projection of what that religion should be. If it works for you, great!

 

I am interested in the conception of bhakti as given by our Gaudiya parampara. It is a big subject and I dont have much time.

 

As to the charge of my pontificating, I dont feel very guilty. I simply see so much evil done by people who claim to be Christians that I have no attraction to that tradition at all. You judge the merit of a school by the quality of students it teaches.

 

The fact that you see a difference between the truth of Lord Jesus Christ and Bhakti says to me you do not have a clear idea of either.

 

Again for the 1 millionth time nobody is talking about a "tradition" of Christianity. Sheesh

[suchandra]

 

The fact that you see a difference between the truth of Lord Jesus Christ and Bhakti says to me you do not have a clear idea of either.

 

 

Brilliant point! We have to stop remaining stuck as kanistha!