Jesus is the Reason - Part II

[Kulapavana]

 

The fact that you see a difference between the truth of Lord Jesus Christ and Bhakti says to me you do not have a clear idea of either.

 

 

what a pompous proclamation...

 

WHAT truth of Jesus Christ? the one developed by the early fathers of Christianity by twisting and selecting existing texts? or the truth of the Gnostic fathers, who had their own original writings, as is evident from the Nag Hamadi cache of manuscripts? or the "truth" you yourself distilled out of that tradition in combination with your Hare Krsna influences? tell me WHICH one of these is a "real" truth about Jesus of Nazareth?

 

For me he was simply a great teacher of old, whose followers made him into someone he never intended to be. There is no way today to separate the fact and fiction, the legends and the true teachings. And I see no reason to even try to that for myself, as my lord walking this earth is Lord Caitanya, and the writings of His direct disciples, the Goswamis of Vrindavana, are my Gospels.

 

and no, I do NOT have a clear idea of bhakti, but I am working on it.

[HerServant]

 

Going through the posts on this specific thread has been somewhat bizarre for me, and that is not in the least surprising, given that I am an interloper looking in a place where I simply don't belong here. Unlike most/all participants in this debate, I was born Hindu, and therefore carry around no hang-ups from any prior background or faith. Personally, I have no feelings, either of a positive or negative nature, about Christ. He may or may not be a divine messenger. It just doesn't impact on my personal quest for knowledge and truth. I still term myself an agnostic, for all my "academic" knowledge of generic Hindu and Gaudiya Vaishnava history and tradition. That I am irresistibly drawn to the Vedic/Puranic deities and Chaitanya Vaishnavism in particular is indubitable, however. Sure, I respect those who feel the necessity to include Jesus in their world views, even whilst surrendering their very beings at the feet of their gurus. At the same time, I certainly sympathise with those who see no good sense in clinging on to vestigial ropes or straws left over from another life literally.

 

As for Theist's words in relation to what Prabhupada stated on Jesus Christ, I think that everybody is aware of the fact that preaching doesn't have to be totally, factually siddhantic at all times. There are many, many instances in which Bhaktivedanta Swami uttered things to which he himself quite clearly did not assign much importance, but that he felt were in order perhaps to encourage his mostly Western audience in their devotional practices. The reason behind and purpose of this generosity seems more than obvious, in light of his astoundingly successful career as a preceptor in Europe, America and Australia.

 

The title of the thread is "Jesus is the Reason - Part II". Perhaps you are not familiar with the saying "Jesus is the reason for the season", but the intent of this thread was as a tribute by Vaisnava "Lord Jesus bhaktas".

 

Since you are a proclaimed "agnostic" I am baffled by what motivates your desire and intention to post in this forum, and particularly in a thread about Jesus.

 

 

Going through the posts on this specific thread has been somewhat bizarre for me, and that is not in the least surprising, given that I am an interloper looking in a place where I simply don't belong here.

 

Now that is bizarre.

 

"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" - Luke 12:49

[theist]

 

Going through the posts on this specific thread has been somewhat bizarre for me, and that is not in the least surprising, given that I am an interloper looking in a place where I simply don't belong here. Unlike most/all participants in this debate, I was born Hindu, and therefore carry around no hang-ups from any prior background or faith. Personally, I have no feelings, either of a positive or negative nature, about Christ. He may or may not be a divine messenger. It just doesn't impact on my personal quest for knowledge and truth. I still term myself an agnostic, for all my "academic" knowledge of generic Hindu and Gaudiya Vaishnava history and tradition. That I am irresistibly drawn to the Vedic/Puranic deities and Chaitanya Vaishnavism in particular is indubitable, however. Sure, I respect those who feel the necessity to include Jesus in their world views, even whilst surrendering their very beings at the feet of their gurus. At the same time, I certainly sympathise with those who see no good sense in clinging on to vestigial ropes or straws left over from another life literally.

"Clinging on". Don't speak for me Vikram. You ain' got a clue. Christ is a present moment reality in my life.

 

 

As for Theist's words in relation to what Prabhupada stated on Jesus Christ, I think that everybody is aware of the fact that preaching doesn't have to be totally, factually siddhantic at all times. There are many, many instances in which Bhaktivedanta Swami uttered things to which he himself quite clearly did not assign much importance, but that he felt were in order perhaps to encourage his mostly Western audience in their devotional practices. The reason behind and purpose of this generosity seems more than obvious, in light of his astoundingly successful career as a preceptor in Europe, America and Australia.

 

Oh puleeze. Another one twisting Prabhupada's clear words around their own personal (mis)conceptions.

[theist]

 

what a pompous proclamation...

 

WHAT truth of Jesus Christ? the one developed by the early fathers of Christianity by twisting and selecting existing texts? or the truth of the Gnostic fathers, who had their own original writings, as is evident from the Nag Hamadi cache of manuscripts? or the "truth" you yourself distilled out of that tradition in combination with your Hare Krsna influences? tell me WHICH one of these is a "real" truth about Jesus of Nazareth?

 

For me he was simply a great teacher of old, whose followers made him into someone he never intended to be. There is no way today to separate the fact and fiction, the legends and the true teachings. And I see no reason to even try to that for myself, as my lord walking this earth is Lord Caitanya, and the writings of His direct disciples, the Goswamis of Vrindavana, are my Gospels.

 

and no, I do NOT have a clear idea of bhakti, but I am working on it.

Still can't see the simplicity of it. Who cares if you accept the bhakti of Christ or not. Why do you even approach the subject? So many posts saying you are not interested in the subject yet you start this thread.

 

No one is trying to convert you to anything.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

"Clinging on". Don't speak for me Vikram. You ain' got a clue. Christ is a present moment reality in my life.

 

 

I wasn't speaking for you. Reread my post. I emphasised the fact that I do not care one way or the other for those who want to be Krishna devotees whilst remaining embedded in what they were before getting acquainted to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. I was simply putting forward an opinion. I have better things to do than waste my time on Jesus. He is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. Sorry.

 

 

Oh puleeze. Another one twisting Prabhupada's clear words around their own personal (mis)conceptions.

 

 

I think that that charge applies to you more than to me. Prabhupada unambiguously let on many a time what he really thought of the Semitic/Abrahamic faiths. He never put Christ's teachings on a par with the Vedic canon. It is pure demagoguery to insist that he did. Anyways, I won't squander my scarce resources arguing about this. You wanna have the final say, please be my guest.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Since you are a proclaimed "agnostic" I am baffled by what motivates your desire and intention to post in this forum, and particularly in a thread about Jesus.

 

Well, I could ask you the same question. This forum is about Hinduism, with an acknowledged predominantly Vaishnava leaning. There is no purpose, at the end of the day, for talks on Christ or Christianity to take place here. But I won't do so, being open-minded and democratic enough to let others indulge in what pleases them. Whatever I am, I do not need your permission or approval in order to post here or anywhere else. Just keep your suggestions to yourself - I have little time for them.

[HerServant]

 

Well, I could ask you the same question. This forum is about Hinduism, with an acknowledged predominantly Vaishnava leaning. There is no purpose, at the end of the day, for talks on Christ or Christianity to take place here. But I won't do so, being open-minded and democratic enough to let others indulge in what pleases them. Whatever I am, I do not need your permission or approval in order to post here or anywhere else. Just keep your suggestions to yourself - I have little time for them.

 

 

 

Your final comment, "Just keep your suggestions to yourself" sounds like a direct order. Is it? My previous post made no suggestion to you whatsover. I merely raised an indirect question which you chose not answer. I did not request that you ask "permission" or seek my "approval" to post here.

 

I wish you the best of luck in you studies.

[krishnaleela]

 

Well, I could ask you the same question. This forum is about Hinduism, with an acknowledged predominantly Vaishnava leaning. There is no purpose, at the end of the day, for talks on Christ or Christianity to take place here.

 

Vikramji, your point is well-taken but we are dealing with those of Christian background leaning towards Hinduism; only they can't accept that wholeheartedly. So they create the divisions and draw lines of demarcations to take what they want in a 'cleansed' manner, or claim the good-part is really their religion in essence. Hinduism has survived millenia of such 'divide-and-conquer' abuse; don't waste too much time arguing.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Your final comment, "Just keep your suggestions to yourself" sounds like a direct order. Is it? My previous post made no suggestion to you whatsover. I merely raised an indirect question which you chose not answer. I did not request that you ask "permission" or seek my "approval" to post here.

 

I wish you the best of luck in you studies.

 

I thank you for your wishes, and apologise if you found my remarks distasteful. Being the hothead that I am, I sometimes fly off the handle when I ought to actually evince more equanimity. I am situated on no platform from which to order you of course. And please accept my own best wishes for your spiritual pursuit, whether that be Catholicism, Vaishnavism or a blend of the two.

 

 

Vikramji, your point is well-taken but we are dealing with those of Christian background leaning towards Hinduism; only they can't accept that wholeheartedly. So they create the divisions and draw lines of demarcations to take what they want in a 'cleansed' manner, or claim the good-part is really their religion in essence. Hinduism has survived millenia of such 'divide-and-conquer' abuse; don't waste too much time arguing.

 

 

Point taken, and an excellent piece of advice. Haribol!

[tackleberry]

 

Well, I could ask you the same question. This forum is about Hinduism, with an acknowledged predominantly Vaishnava leaning. There is no purpose, at the end of the day, for talks on Christ or Christianity to take place here.

 

It's ok for Christians/others to start threads on Jesus, Mohammed, Mary, Holy Ghost, and glorify them, even though this is a Vaishnava forum. Vaishnavas don't mind. But they DO mind, and will call you names-mayavadi, sleepervadi etc. etc.-if you dare to speak of another school within Vaishnavism. Does this sound crazy and hypocritical? Perhaps, but then this is a vaishnava forum.

[theist]

 

I wasn't speaking for you. Reread my post. I emphasised the fact that I do not care one way or the other for those who want to be Krishna devotees whilst remaining embedded in what they were before getting acquainted to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. I was simply putting forward an opinion. I have better things to do than waste my time on Jesus. He is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. Sorry.

 

Then why are you talking about Him at all?

 

 

 

 

I think that that charge applies to you more than to me. Prabhupada unambiguously let on many a time what he really thought of the Semitic/Abrahamic faiths. He never put Christ's teachings on a par with the Vedic canon. It is pure demagoguery to insist that he did. Anyways, I won't squander my scarce resources arguing about this. You wanna have the final say, please be my guest.

He clearly said on more than one occasion that Lord Jesus Christ was a Krsna incarnation. Christ's teachings are devotional not the poison spewed forth by 95% of the so-called "hindu" poly-theists and monists.

[theist]

Spiritual Discussions is the name of this forum. Not Hinduism or even Vaisnavism.

 

Hindu forums are located elsewhere on the Audarya Fellowship site.

[suchandra]

 

Spiritual Discussions is the name of these forum. Not Hinduism or even Vaisnavism.

 

Hindu forums are located elsewhere on the Audarya Fellowship site.

Thanks theist, good points, seems to quarrel is an unsolvable generation gap?

 

Priests brawl at Bethlehem birthplace of Jesus

 

Same thing as occurs in ISKCON, "priests or gurus fighting over control of the real estate."

Priests brawl at Bethlehem birthplace of Jesus

 

Dec 27 08:34 AM US/Eastern

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071227133441.5ue4z6fy&show_article=1

BETHLEHEM, West Bank (AFP) - Seven people were injured on Thursday when Greek Orthodox and Armenian priests came to blows in a dispute over how to clean the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem.

 

Following the Christmas celebrations, Greek Orthodox priests set up ladders to clean the walls and ceilings of their part of the church, which is built over the site where Jesus Christ is believed to have been born. But the ladders encroached on space controlled by Armenian priests, according to photographers who said angry words ensued and blows quickly followed.

 

 

For a quarter of an hour bearded and robed priests laid into each other with fists, brooms and iron rods while the photographers who had come to take pictures of the annual cleaning ceremony recorded the whole event. A dozen unarmed Palestinian policemen were sent to try to separate the priests, but two of them were also injured in the unholy melee. "As usual the cleaning of the church afer Christmas is a cause of problems," Bethlehem Mayor Victor Batarseh told AFP, adding that he has offered to help ease tensions.

 

"For the two years that I have been here everything went more or less calmly," he said. "It's all finished now." The Church of the Nativity, like the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem's Old City, is shared by various branches of Christianity, each of which controls and jealously guards a part of the holy site. The Church of the Nativity is built on the site where Christians believe Jesus was born in a stable more than 2,000 years ago after Mary and Joseph were turned away by an inn.

 

[Flix Kandish]

Hello this is my first post on this forum. I would like to throw in my two cents on this matter.

 

The message that Jesus the Christ was spreading has been twisted into what the people are told to beleive today. I think his teachings were more similar to that of the Buddha than the modern day Christians. Being that, many Christians I know go against what their own religion teaches, it would make sense that it has been based upon a twisting of what Jesus actually taught. As for him dying on the cross, I have not nice things to say about that. It sounds more like a sacrafice to me. And, who is to say, that just by being born I have committed a wrong- doing? This concept of 'sin' does not leave much incentive for doing good, only for not doing evil.

 

Many are the problems I have with this modern teaching of the Bible. The emphasis of certain things are all in the wrong place.

 

Anyone ever heard of the vote that took place under the rule of Constantine, to decide which prophet should be known as the 'Son of God'? The information is online somewhere, I'll have to dig it up.

 

Another fact, the Koran and the Bible are over 50% the same. These people are fighting over the same story! Sounds like children... eh?

[Kulapavana]

 

Who cares if you accept the bvhakti of Christ or not. Why do you even approach the subject? So many posts saying you are not interested in the subject yet you start this thread.

 

No one is trying to convert you to anything.

Check the facts before you speak. I did not start this thread. I merely posted a comment to it.

 

Many devotees cling to their previous religious tradition for years after joining the movement. I understand their reasons, but ultimately that approach holds them back in understanding Krsna Consciousness. At least that is my observation.

 

The subject matter has some interest to me because people like Ananda Bhakti Goswami create a bogus version of our tradition.

[tackleberry]

 

Christ's teachings are devotional not the poison spewed forth by 95% of the so-called "hindu" poly-theists and monists.

 

Christ's teaching, which resulted in crusades, slavery, and the rest, is NOT poison, then? I am shocked!

[HerServant]

 

Christ's teaching, which resulted in crusades, slavery, and the rest, is NOT poison, then? I am shocked!

 

Unlike many other religious texts, the account of Christ's teachings (Gospels) are non violent. Jesus teaches:

 

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matt. 5:44

 

Therefore Jesus' teachings are embraced by sattvic followers of other faiths.

 

For some reason, there are members on this forum that repeatedly attack Jesus Christ for actions of maya covered sinners.

 

This antichrist sentiment among "vaisnavas" is paradoxical. So many religious scholars, (including Srila Prabhupada consider) Jesus a Vaisnava.

 

I am reminded of Gandhi's embrace of Jesus' teaching of non violence to break the bonds of British rule in India.

 

 

In relation to the well known fact that Gandhi read from the New Testament everyday and often quoted the Christian Scriptures, a reporter once asked him why he had never become a Christian. He answered, "If I had ever met one, I would have become one." In his own way, Gandhi was saying, "Don't tell me, show me!" and simultaneously revealing his yearning for an example of an authentic life.

source : http://www.catholicdestination.com/article_info.php?articles_id=36

[davidbrucehughes]

Well I am shocked at the vitriol which has erupted on this thread. So much for high thinking. Intelligent people should be able to discriminate between the real presence and teachings of Jesus and the devolution of the same in so-called religious organizations. Spiritually advanced people do not treat others offensively.

[Kulapavana]

 

For some reason, there are members on this forum that repeatedly attack Jesus Christ for actions of maya covered sinners.

 

This antichrist sentiment among "vaisnavas" is paradoxical. So many religious scholars, (including Srila Prabhupada consider) Jesus a Vaisnava.

 

 

please show us where Jesus was attacked on this thread.

 

btw. I appreciate the nonviolence in teachings of Jesus. too bad his followers did not reject the Old Testament concepts like some of his early followers proposed.

[Kulapavana]

Originally Posted by theist

Christ's teachings are devotional not the poison spewed forth by 95% of the so-called "hindu" poly-theists and monists.

----

Poison in polytheism and monism? Look for the real poison in the Old Testament. Millions slaughtered over the centuries and more are killed every day thanks to the twisted ideas about God and religion from that set of books.

It's easy to spot crusaders in this crowd, especially when daggers come out.

[tackleberry]

 

Unlike many other religious texts, the account of Christ's teachings (Gospels) are non violent.

[url="http://www.catholicdestination.com/article_info.php?articles_id=36"]

 

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." Mathew 10.34

 

"For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" Mathew 10.35

 

All this makes Jesus look violent, nothing peaceful here?

[theist]

 

Christ's teaching, which resulted in crusades, slavery, and the rest, is NOT poison, then? I am shocked!

 

And which teaching of Christ resulted in the crusades slavery etc. ? Was it, Love your enemies" or "Do good to those that despitefully use you."

 

I am shocked that you could ask such a stupid question.

[theist]

 

Originally Posted by theist

Christ's teachings are devotional not the poison spewed forth by 95% of the so-called "hindu" poly-theists and monists.

----

 

Poison in polytheism and monism? Look for the real poison in the Old Testament. Millions slaughtered over the centuries and more are killed every day thanks to the twisted ideas about God and religion from that set of books.

 

It's easy to spot crusaders in this crowd, especially when daggers come out.

 

I don't accept the Old Testament as scripture. When I am speaking of the teaching of Christ I am speaking of the teaching of Christ.

[theist]

 

Well I am shocked at the vitriol which has erupted on this thread. So much for high thinking. Intelligent people should be able to discriminate between the real presence and teachings of Jesus and the devolution of the same in so-called religious organizations. Spiritually advanced people do not treat others offensively.

A natural by-product of trying to bring transcendental bhakti down to level of a religion of one certain region culture and a certain time and place in history. Once that is done then the next step is to see that which comes from another region, culture, time and place as a competing force.

 

This is not the presentation of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada.

[HerServant]

 

please show us where Jesus was attacked on this thread.

 

btw. I appreciate the nonviolence in teachings of Jesus. too bad his followers did not reject the Old Testament concepts like some of his early followers proposed.

 

right here:

 

Christ's teaching, which resulted in crusades, slavery, and the rest, is NOT poison, then? I am shocked!

 

Jesus is indifferent from His words (teachings).