Jesus is the Reason - Part II

[HerServant]

 

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." Mathew 10.34

 

"For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" Mathew 10.35

 

All this makes Jesus look violent, nothing peaceful here?

 

True. Your response is a form of violence. You are using scripture to "argue" and create division as opposed to unity on a "Spiritual Topics" thread enjoyed by devotees.

 

Your presentation of scripture is similar to what I've seen from fundamentalist bible thumping preachers, that you seem to despise.

 

In fact your response above bears the Truth of Jesus words.

 

You wouldn't happen to be also at odds over religious matters with someone in your family, circle of friends, or extended family?

[suchandra]

 

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." Mathew 10.34

 

"For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" Mathew 10.35

 

All this makes Jesus look violent, nothing peaceful here?

 

Oh, yet another candidate who lost faith in God - poor boy.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

right here:

Jesus is indifferent from His words (teachings).

 

nondifferent? even if that was true, which teachings would those be? King James version or the Nag Hamadi gnostic version? how do we know what he really taught?

[mahak]

same way you know what prabhupada taught, use discernment and the tri-criteria of guru shastra and sadhu. How about the version of revelation? This is how it works, because all publications and movements are manipulated (ie polluted by opinion of those who are not devotee).

 

Any teaching of Jesus, Prabhupada, et al, must be heard from devotee. The coptic Pope Shenouda III teaches that THEISM can only be discussed by those who love God and their disciples. So, how do we know? Ask, hes there.

 

haribol, mahaksadasa

[theist]

I would find it very hard to misunderstand the instructions of Jesus in the Bible. He made them so simple and they are conduct orientated rather than philosophical. What He told His close disciples may be another thing.

 

Pray to the Father that He forgive us as we forgive others. Yeah sounds real simple and not much interest to the jnani's. But real Christianity lives in the carrying out of that instructions and others like it. Living within that prayer day to day.

 

If we drop the critic garb for a while and try to live it ourselves most of us will not find it that easy.

 

Look at Christianity with external eyes and you won't see much. Not any pomp and circumstance in that path. They have only one ritual and that is baptism as a symbol of rebirth or being born of the Holy Spirit. The old nature dies when emmersed and the new nature arises. Beautiful in it's simplicity I think. The rest is all service orientated through atruistic acts. Seeing God in others and serving there.

 

In Sri Isophanishad Srila Prabhupada writes that "Altruistic activities carried out in the spirit of Sri Isopanishad are another form of karma yoga." Couple those acts with the devotional life He taught and you have karma/bhakti-yoga.

 

Karma/bhakti-yoga as well as jnana/bhakti yoga lead to the same place... suddha bhakti.

 

It is a very simple thing really but if we chose to look through the eyes of sectarianism we won't be able to see it.

[Kulapavana]

 

I would find it very hard to misunderstand the instructions of Jesus in the Bible.

 

Yes, I wonder why so many Christians misunderstood them so badly over the centuries to cause religious wars, crusades, and Inquisition...

[HerServant]

 

Yes, I wonder why so many Christians misunderstood them so badly over the centuries to cause religious wars, crusades, and Inquisition...

 

By The Supreme Lord Krsna's arrangement!

 

He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.'"

- Mark 4:11

 

Read Jesus' complete answer (Mark 4:1-34) below:

 

On another occasion he began to teach by the sea. A very large crowd gathered around him so that he got into a boat on the sea and sat down. And the whole crowd was beside the sea on land.

 

And he taught them at length in parables, and in the course of his instruction he said to them,

 

"Hear this! A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and the birds came and ate it up.

 

Other seed fell on rocky ground where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep.

 

And when the sun rose, it was scorched and it withered for lack of roots.

 

Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it and it produced no grain.

 

And some seed fell on rich soil and produced fruit. It came up and grew and yielded thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."

 

He added, "Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear." And when he was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables.

 

He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.'"

 

 

Jesus said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables?

 

The sower sows the word. These are the ones on the path where the word is sown. As soon as they hear, Satan comes at once and takes away the word sown in them.

And these are the ones sown on rocky ground who, when they hear the word, receive it at once with joy. But they have no root; they last only for a time. Then when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Those sown among thorns are another sort. They are the people who hear the word, but worldly anxiety, the lure of riches, and the craving for other things intrude and choke the word, and it bears no fruit.

But those sown on rich soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit thirty and sixty and a hundredfold."

He said to them, "Is a lamp brought in to be placed under a bushel basket or under a bed, and not to be placed on a lampstand? For there is nothing hidden except to be made visible; nothing is secret except to come to light. Anyone who has ears to hear ought to hear." He also told them, "Take care what you hear. The measure with which you measure will be measured out to you, and still more will be given to you.

To the one who has, more will be given; from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." He said,"This is how it is with the kingdom of God; it is as if a man were to scatter seed on the land and would sleep and rise night and day and the seed would sprout and grow, he knows not how. Of its own accord the land yields fruit, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. And when the grain is ripe, he wields the sickle at once, for the harvest has come." He said, "To what shall we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable can we use for it? It is like a mustard seed that, when it is sown in the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on the earth.

But once it is sown, it springs up and becomes the largest of plants and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the sky can dwell in its shade."

 

With many such parables he spoke the word to them as they were able to understand it. Without parables he did not speak to them, but to his own disciples he explained everything in private.

[tackleberry]

 

Jesus has an answer to your every question

 

Suuure, he's got an answer for everything, ranging from why his followers went on crusades to witch hunting to genocides and inquisition, and the rest. Let's stop kidding ourselves, please. Jesus has done more harm than good, and the sooner so-called Vaishnavas get rid of this 'Jesus preached KC' line, the better it's for Mahaprabhu's movement.

[Kulapavana]

 

Jesus has an answer to your every question

 

actually I was just making a sarcastic comment to this statement:

 

Originally Posted by theist

I would find it very hard to misunderstand the instructions of Jesus in the Bible.

--

Turns out it is NOT hard to misunderstand these instructions, as Christians do it all the time.

[theist]

 

actually I was just making a sarcastic comment to this statement:

 

Originally Posted by theist

I would find it very hard to misunderstand the instructions of Jesus in the Bible.

 

--

 

Turns out it is NOT hard to misunderstand these instructions, as Christians do it all the time.

 

I said I would find it hard.

 

Aham Brahmasmi is not hard to understand but we see the entire universe is filled with souls that don't understand. Why? Motive.

 

And motive is why you don't understand the simple truths of Christ. You feel you need any enemy in terms of "my religion is better than yours." That is why you cannot honor the same dawning impulse to find God as it arises in another who is not a member of your chosen group, as you feel within yourself.

 

As if the Lord in the heart hearing the prayer of the soul to reunite with Him makes some distinction based on if that soul is identifying with some religion other than Kulapavana's or not.

 

"Oh, sorry. You are not with Kulapavana's accedpt group so even though in reality you are my intimate part and parcel I must ignore you."

 

Sectarianism is a fools platform.

[Kulapavana]

 

And motive is why you don't understand the simple truths of Christ. You feel you need any enemy in terms of "my religion is better than yours." That is why you cannot honor the same dawning impulse to find God as it arises in another who is not a member of your chosen group, as you feel within yourself.

 

 

I certainly dont find Christians ("true" or "fake") to be my enemies (i.e people I would like to see hurt). Sometimes they act in a very inimical way to others (including devotees of Krsna), but I know that Krsna has His plan for them.

 

I asked you several times about precisely what concept of Jesus Christ you find true. From what you write I see it is the "King James version". I used to think that this was a true version as well (Catholic edition). Today I am not so sure and I explained that to you at least twice.

 

As to the charge of sectarianism. It is you, my friend, who feels the need to impose your beliefs on others ("The fact that you see a difference between the truth of Lord Jesus Christ and Bhakti says to me you do not have a clear idea of either"). It is you who condemns polytheists and monists ("Christ's teachings are devotional not the poison spewed forth by 95% of the so-called "hindu" poly-theists and monists") even as Krsna in Bhagavad Gita does not make such condemnations. Yet you call me sectarian because I am not interested in the "tuth" of Jesus Christ (or rather what you think is that truth)?

 

thats some chutzpah, brother..

[theist]

 

I certainly dont find Christians ("true" or "fake") to be my enemies (i.e people I would like to see hurt). Sometimes they act in a very inimical way to others (including devotees of Krsna), but I know that Krsna has His plan for them.

 

How generous of you. Yes and Krsna even has a plan for you and I.

 

 

I asked you several times about precisely what concept of Jesus Christ you find true. From what you write I see it is the "King James version". I used to think that this was a true version as well (Catholic edition). Today I am not so sure and I explained that to you at least twice.

 

Yes you speak but you do not listen. What part of "love God with all you heart mind and strength" do you consider to be the King James version or the Catholic version. The fact that you are still talking like this means you havent read a single thing I wrote. So let this be the end of this so-called conversation.

 

 

As to the charge of sectarianism. It is you, my friend, who feels the need to impose your beliefs on others ("The fact that you see a difference between the truth of Lord Jesus Christ and Bhakti says to me you do not have a clear idea of either"). It is you who condemns polytheists and monists ("Christ's teachings are devotional not the poison spewed forth by 95% of the so-called "hindu" poly-theists and monists") even as Krsna in Bhagavad Gita does not make such condemnations. Yet you call me sectarian because I am not interested in the "tuth" of Jesus Christ (or rather what you think is that truth)?

 

thats some chutzpah, brother..

 

Shows you do not know the difference between sectarianism and opposing philosophical teachings. Yes I am openlyopposed to voidism monism and polytheism because they all deny the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I do feel a unity with other theists who recognize the Supreme Lord and I don't care what religious flag they walk under...or no flag at all as I do. Any other philosophical differences are miniscule compared to the ideal of attaining love for God.

[Kulapavana]

 

Shows you do not know the difference between sectarianism and opposing philosophical teachings. Yes I am openlyopposed to voidism monism and polytheism because they all deny the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I do feel a unity with other theists who recognize the Supreme Lord and I don't care what religious flag they walk under...

 

Yes, your sectarianism is limited to your own sect: "General theists who appreciate all "true" religions just like I do". All others are "poisoned trash", including monists who are glorified in the Bhagavatam, simply because they do not share your idea of the Supreme.

 

All sectarian people only respect members of their sect. The only difference is how they define their sect.

 

And yes, this concludes that exchange on my part as well.

[theist]

Now we all have to consider if being conscious of the Supreme Person is a sectarian pursuit or not. Theists can only be sectarian when they are not God conscious but have an inkling that God exists but can only appreciate that fact in the familar jargon of their chosen religion.( reference Bhaktivinode) The purport to the saying, "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

 

We hear them talking all the time about the other religions praying to "their" God while we pray to "our" God as if there is more than one God. Many Hindus say this about Islamists and Christians while Christians say this about Islamists and Hindus. Islamists talk the same way. There are exceptions but this is a common happening. Of course with many of those under the Hindu flag it may be true as they pray to demigods instead of Krsna. But the point is if someone tells me they pray to the one Supreme God I accept that. I may not accept their descriptions or conceptions about that Supreme God but that is another thing and also is not a sectarian consideration. Rather it is one of realization.

 

Krsna conscious souls are so far above this type of thinking. They see even the polytheist as connecting with Krsna, only in a wrong way as Krsna teaches in the Gita. The monists also are connected to Krsna but as they are advocating entering His aura in a state of suspended animation devoid of loving Krsna their teaching must be rejected also by those seeking Bhakti.

 

Rejecting the goals of the polytheists and monists is essential for one wishing to enter in to devotional service. This is not sectarianism it is common sense.

[tackleberry]

 

Rejecting the goals of the polytheists and monists is essential for one wishing to enter in to devotional service. This is not sectarianism it is common sense.

 

Those rejecting christ will also argue that it's not sectarianism but common sense to reject it for one wishing to enter into devotional service. As you can see, two can play this game. Anyway, Happy New Year, Theist.

[theist]

 

Those rejecting christ will also argue that it's not sectarianism but common sense to reject it for one wishing to enter into devotional service. As you can see, two can play this game. Anyway, Happy New Year, Theist.

 

Not understanding or even caring about what you mean. You play alone.

[raghu]

 

Suuure, he's got an answer for everything, ranging from why his followers went on crusades to witch hunting to genocides and inquisition, and the rest. Let's stop kidding ourselves, please. Jesus has done more harm than good, and the sooner so-called Vaishnavas get rid of this 'Jesus preached KC' line, the better it's for Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

How will it be better? If there is one thing history teaches, it is that you can rally more people by telling them sweet lies than unvarnished truth. The Jesus myth will always be a part of iskcon canon, because it's a hook by which they attract Western people raised in Judeo-Christian civilization who would otherwise be uninterested in what appears to them to be nothing more than a foreign, hindu movement.

 

I for one have always been amazed at how iskcon devotees can claim to know about the "real" Jesus and the "real" christianity, which modern Christians supposedly do not. Who here has the original teachings of the historic Jesus in their original Aramaic? The fact of the matter is that iskcon people imagine jesus according to their own tastes and preferences, with hardly any consistent, factual evidence to support their claims.

[CCC]

 

I would find it very hard to misunderstand the instructions of Jesus in the Bible. He made them so simple and they are conduct orientated rather than philosophical. What He told His close disciples may be another thing.

 

Pray to the Father that He forgive us as we forgive others. Yeah sounds real simple and not much interest to the jnani's. But real Christianity lives in the carrying out of that instructions and others like it. Living within that prayer day to day.

 

If we drop the critic garb for a while and try to live it ourselves most of us will not find it that easy.

 

Look at Christianity with external eyes and you won't see much. Not any pomp and circumstance in that path. They have only one ritual and that is baptism as a symbol of rebirth or being born of the Holy Spirit. The old nature dies when emmersed and the new nature arises. Beautiful in it's simplicity I think. The rest is all service orientated through atruistic acts. Seeing God in others and serving there.

 

In Sri Isophanishad Srila Prabhupada writes that "Altruistic activities carried out in the spirit of Sri Isopanishad are another form of karma yoga." Couple those acts with the devotional life He taught and you have karma/bhakti-yoga.

 

Karma/bhakti-yoga as well as jnana/bhakti yoga lead to the same place... suddha bhakti.

 

It is a very simple thing really but if we chose to look through the eyes of sectarianism we won't be able to see it.

 

thanks theist, your words are very valuable and true

[krishnadasa]

Thy shall not kill christianity??????? Guess Bible has been distorted to a level of nothing ... So, it doesnt really matter if Christ told something or not as long as he is not been portrayed genuinly in Bible...Had bible been so pure and reverable, we wouldnt have seen millions getting massacred in south america on the name of this book.. Its coz Krishna has a special grace on Bharath, spanish couldnt come inside India...