He Will Suffer For Us

[suchandra]

This is of course what attracts people to become member - a religion that says, “You do something, and I suffer for that.”

 

"Just like sometimes foolish persons, they say that “Krishna, God, has kept me in this way. According to His desire, I am now in this position because nothing can happen without His desire.” This argument they say. That is another rascaldom. So Prahlāda Mahārāja clears, therefore, that baddhah sva-karmabhih: “It is not desired by You. I have created this situation.” Baddhah sva-karmabhih. I have been put into this condition by my own work, sva-karmabhir. Baddhah sva-karmabhir usattama. You cannot overcome this resultant action of your karma. You must suffer. The same example: just like if you infect some contaminous disease, you must suffer, similarly, we are creating karma and we are suffering. Baddhah sva-karmabhih. My work. Śāstra does not say that you steal. Nobody says. Neither śāstra says, nor the moral codes say, nor the law, government law, say that “You can steal whatever you like.” No. Everybody says… The government says, “Don’t steal.” The śāstra, scriptures, they also say, “Don’t drink. Don’t steal. Don’t do this. Don’t.” All forbidden. But I steal. So that is sva-karmabhih. There is forbidding everywhere, but still, I steal. Then whose fault it is? It is government’s fault or my fault? If I kill, I’ll be hanged. “Thou shall not kill.” Lord Christ says, “Thou shall not kill.” But if I kill, then I must suffer. But they say, give some false argument, “Lord Christ says, ‘Thou shall not kill’ and if I kill, Christ has taken the contract that whatever sinful activities we do, he will excuse.” This is Christian document. They say that “Our Christ is so kind that whatever sinful activities we do, he will suffer for us.” Is it not? This is Christian theory. Just see foolishness. “You do something, and I suffer for that.” No. You have to suffer. You have done something wrong; you must suffer. This is the real philosophy, sva-karmabhih uśattama te ’nghri-mūlam prītah apavarga-śaranam.

 

 

So we are very much entangled in this material world. One should be very much afraid. Prahlāda Maharaja says… Prahlada Maharaja was not afraid of Nrsimha-murti, but he is very much afraid of this material existence. It is really very, very fearful. People do not know the seriousness of material existence, and they continue and waste their, the chance, human being. Human form of life is a chance to rectify, but they do not care. Therefore the Krishna consciousness movement is so important. Everyone, door to door, a devotee has to go and teach them that “You are leading a very, very irresponsible life. Be responsible to your consciousness and be a devotee of Krishna. That will save you.”

 

Thank you very much. (end)

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.9.16

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Māyāpur, February 23, 1976

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760223SB.MAY.htm?i=1976

[theist]

Yes this is a very dangerous and foolish mentality. There was this James Watt who was the Secretary of the Interior in the Reagen administration. That means in charge of the wilderness and parks etc. for the US. This guy was also a so-called Christian and he publically said that it didn't matter what we did to the environment because no matter how badly we screwed it up Jesus was going to fix like new when He comes again.

 

Yes we can choose to suffer on another's behalf. Like a mother who suffers so much taking care of a sick child. That is the nature of love. It is this self sacrifice that Jesus showed the world was the way to please God. Not as the Christians say that God was pleased by Jesus dying on the cross. What a demonic view of God they present.

[HerServant]

 

Yes this is a very dangerous and foolish mentality. There was this James Watt who was the Secretary of the Interior in the Reagen administration. That means in charge of the wilderness and parks etc. for the US. This guy was also a so-called Christian and he publically said that it didn't matter what we did to the environment because no matter how badly we screwed it up Jesus was going to fix like new when He comes again.

 

Yes we can choose to suffer on another's behalf. Like a mother who suffers so much taking care of a sick child. That is the nature of love. It is this self sacrifice that Jesus showed the world was the way to please God. Not as the Christians say that God was pleased by Jesus dying on the cross. What a demonic view of God they present.

 

 

 

Yes this is a very dangerous and foolish mentality. There was this James Watt who was the Secretary of the Interior in the Reagen administration. That means in charge of the wilderness and parks etc. for the US. This guy was also a so-called Christian and he publically said that it didn't matter what we did to the environment because no matter how badly we screwed it up Jesus was going to fix like new when He comes again.

 

Yes we can choose to suffer on another's behalf. Like a mother who suffers so much taking care of a sick child. That is the nature of love. It is this self sacrifice that Jesus showed the world was the way to please God. Not as the Christians say that God was pleased by Jesus dying on the cross. What a demonic view of God they present.

 

 

Yes. Very demonic. Some of this logic comes from the history of blood (animal) sacrifice prior to the coming of Jesus. You've heard the expression "scape goat".

 

This expression comes from the animal sacrifice traditions related to "atonement" and "forgiveness".

 

The high priest would "transfer" the sins of people to the "goat" or "lamb" then kill it and spill its blood, hence "killing the sins" of those that offered the animal.

 

When Jesus came, He offered His life to end the bloody sacrifice. This is obvious and easy to prove because He was not given over to authorities until the very night He ended the Passover and replaced it with "The New Covenant".

 

You don't need a new covenant if you still have an old covenant. Hence, when He said "this is the new covenant" in regards to eating bread and wine on Passover, it cost Him is mortal body.

 

That is, this ending of the animal sacrifice meat eating ritual of Passover, is what caused Judas to betray Jesus and hand him over. According to the Jews, only God could end or change "The Law" that required a spotless lamb to be slaughtered, then eaten during the Passover feast.

 

This is why to this day, Jesus is called the Paschal Sacrifice.

 

Unfortunately, there is a vast misconception in Christian interpretation of St. Paul's writings (on Jesus as sacrifice), particularly among evangelical Christians. (when disciplic succession is broken, knowlege is lost)

 

St. Paul's intended audience , to a large extent, were Jews engaged in such sacrifice rituals.

 

The Lord of Unending Love however continually seeks the jiva soul to lift it up above rajistic and tamasic activities and tendencies. He , the one who lays down His Life for the fallen, the Reservoir of Compassion, the fountainhead of Compassion, suffers awaiting our awakening.

 

At the same time, one must be sincere to approach His feet. Therefore the Crucifixion of Christ is very difficult to comprehend.

 

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. - 1st Corinthians 1:18

 

but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness - 1 Corinthians 1:23

 

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up" - John 3:14

 

".Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said to Maharaja Parikshit: My dear King, approximately 240,000 miles beneath the planet Patala lives another incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is the expansion of Lord Vishnu known as Lord Ananta or Lord Sankarshana. He is always in the transcendental position, but because He is worshiped by Lord Siva, the deity of tamo-guna or darkness, He is sometimes called tamasi. Lord Ananta is the predominating Deity of the material mode of ignorance as well as the false ego of all conditioned souls. When a conditioned living being thinks, "I am the enjoyer, and this world is meant to be enjoyed by me," this conception of life is dictated to him by Sankarshana. Thus the mundane conditioned soul thinks himself the Supreme Lord. - Srimad Bhagavatam 5.25.1

 

"The foremost manifestation of Krishna is Sankarshana, who is known as Ananta. He is the origin of all incarnations within this material world.

Previous to the appearance of Lord Krishna, this original Sankarshana will appear as Baladeva, just to please the Supreme Lord Krishna in His transcendental pastimes." - Srimad Bhagavatam 10.1.24

 

"That Ananta Sesha is the devotee incarnation of Godhead. He knows nothing but service to Lord Krishna." - Sri Chaitanya Caritamrita Adi-lila 5.120

 

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. - Mark 4:11-12

[theist]

 

When Jesus came, He offered His life to end the bloody sacrifice. This is obvious and easy to prove because He was not given over to authorities until the very night He ended the Passover and replaced it with "The New Covenant".

 

I want to make sure I understand you correctly. I understand the idea behind passover but I am not sure of the date it took place. As far as I know Jesus was taken to be judged then crucified after he overturned the tables of those selling lambs and goats to be sacrificed at the temple grounds. He could have escaped if He wanted to but instead stayed in the area, Gethsemane, and prayed and waited until they came for Him.

 

Now they were lead there by Judas so it makes sense that was soon after passover. I never made that connection before.

 

The fact that He went to the temple to run out those selling animals for sacrifice right after passover only strengthens what you say about Him trying to cleanse Judaism from animal sacrifice and hearld in a new era of understanding.

 

Animal sacrifice is so horrific. I just can't fathom how that started. The vedas also have this ghastly component. We read in Krsna book about the brahmanas and their wives. The spiritualy blind brahmanas were engaging in animal sacrifice while their wives made offerings to Krsna and His friends.

[HerServant]

 

I want to make sure I understand you correctly. I understand the idea behind passover but I am not sure of the date it took place. As far as I know Jesus was taken to be judged then crucified after he overturned the tables of those selling lambs and goats to be sacrificed at the temple grounds. He could have escaped if He wanted to but instead stayed in the area, Gethsemane, and prayed and waited until they came for Him.

 

Now they were lead there by Judas so it makes sense that was soon after passover. I never made that connection before.

 

The fact that He went to the temple to run out those selling animals for sacrifice right after passover only strengthens what you say about Him trying to cleanse Judaism from animal sacrifice and hearld in a new era of understanding.

 

 

Jesus and the disciples were actually together at the Passover meal on the same night of His "agony in the garden" of Gethsemene.

 

"The disciples then went off, entered the city, and found it just as he had told them; and they prepared the Passover. When it was evening, he came with the Twelve. And as they reclined at table and were eating, Jesus said, "Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me." They began to be distressed and to say to him, one by one, "Surely it is not I?"

He said to them, "One of the Twelve, the one who dips with me into the dish. For the Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, 6 but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born." While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which will be shed for many. -- Mark 14:16-25

 

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. - 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 23

 

 

The Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus. It is logical to conclude that they had to have "something on Jesus" .. they had to have a reason.

 

"So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, "What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs. If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our land and our nation." But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing, nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish." He did not say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also to gather into one the dispersed children of God. So from that day on they planned to kill him. - John 11:47-53

 

 

Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him. - Matt. 26:14-16

 

From that time on, Judas began looking for the right time and place to betray Jesus. - Matt 26:16 (NLT translation)

 

Therefore, Judas was spying on behalf of the Pharisees and looking for something could be used to hand over Jesus to Jewish authorities.

 

Breaking Jewish law would certainly be an incident that would present Judas with "the right time and place".

 

 

Jesus KNEW that Judas would betray Him at the meal because Jesus was ending the bloody animal sacrifice of passover and replacing it with His own life.

 

He layed down His life at that moment, that is .. that moment He said "This is my blood of the NEW COVENANT that will be poured out for many"

 

And this is why bread and wine offered in His remembrance are the body and blood of Jesus .. that is, the offering of bread and wine is indifferent from Jesus (His sacrifice and His lila (life).

 

It is clear. Jesus gave His life for many and the many includes the millions of innocent lambs that were slaughtered every year at passover.

 

 

Her Servant and yours.

[theist]

OK same night.

 

When did he overturn the animal sellers tables at the temple.

 

Please put the time line together for me. Temple incident- Passover meal- Gethsemene.

[HerServant]

 

OK same night.

 

When did he overturn the animal sellers tables at the temple.

 

Please put the time line together for me. Temple incident- Passover meal- Gethsemene.

 

The turning over the tables was shortly after Jesus entered Jerusalem. (He was preaching outside Jerusalem for most of His public minsitry). In the Gospel of Mark it is recorded in Chapter 11. There are quite a few events in between Chapter 11 and Chapter 14 (describing the events of the passover and Gethsemane).

 

Tradition, I think, tells us that there was a short period of time between Jesus entering the Temple in Jerusalem and the feast of passover. Perhaps even a week or two, but possibly a month. A great number of Jews would enter the city of Jerusalem in the few weeks before the passover because, by law, they (Jews) were required to bring a spotless lamb to the temple of Jerusalem to be slaughtered by priests for the passover.

 

Jesus in Gethsemane takes place the very night of the passover. Jesus goes to the garden to pray through the night knowing that Judas left the passover meal to turn him over to the Pharisees.

[theist]

Hmmm... Still not quite clear on the timeline so I'll let it go for now.

[Dharini]

Hi Theist-

 

The temple cleansing is said to have occurred the Monday before his death.

 

26 Ad Jesus was baptized

26 Ad Tempted in the Desert

27 AD The fishermen become his followers

27 AD Starts preaching in Gallilee

28 AD Chooses his disciples (Capernaum)

28 AD The disciples are sent out to teach

28 AD Calms the Storm-Sea of Gallilee

28 AD Brings Jairus's daughter back from the dead

28 AD Herod kills John the Baptist

29 AD Jesus feeds 5000 (Bethsaida)

29 AD Walks on water

29 AD Feeds 4000 people

29 AD Peter tells the Jesus is the son of God

29 AD Jesus tells that he will die soon

29 AD Pays his temple taxes

29 AD Raises Lazarus in Bethany

30 AD Blesses the Children near the Jordan

30 AD Tells of his death and resurrection

30 AD Heals a blind man, Bartimaeus, at Jerico

30 AD Visits Mary and Martha at Bethany

 

 

In the last week of his physical life in 30 AD: Sunday he entered Jerusalem the people cried out : "Hosanna [save now!] to the son of David: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.’ And when he was come into Jerusalem, the entire city was stirred, saying, ‘Who is this?’ And the crowds said, ‘This is the prophet, Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee’” This would be observed today as Palm Sunday.

 

Monday-Jesus cursed the fig tree and caused it to whither. Some say it was related to the temple with the animal sacrifice which looked fine from a distance but upfront it was without spiritual fruit-full of hypocrisy. Religion without substance. Some say it was representative of a faithless Israel. Others say it was a prophesy related to when Titus of Rome destroyed Jerusalem.

 

This was the day he cleansed the temple.

 

Tuesday-The authority of Jesus is questioned, he teaches in the temple and is anointed.

 

Wednesday-The plot to put Jesus to death comes to light-there are just two days before Passover. His trial is said to have occurred on Passover itself.

 

Thursday-The last supper is the Passover Meal. After which he is arrested and tried into Friday.

 

Friday-Jesus's crucifixion and death at Golgotha followed by his burial in Joseph's tomb.

 

Sunday-The empty tomb. Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene.

 

A week later in Jerusalem he appears to the 11 disciples and a week later speaks to some of them at the Sea of Gallilee.

 

AD 40 days later he ascends.

[mahak]

Haribol. This is a fact of both the ministry of Lord Jesus and the teachings of guru tattwa according to vaisnava tradition. That when one commits oneself to the process of the acarya, the acarya agrees to help in the area of karma heaped up from time immemorial.

 

However, when we speak of commitment, we speak of reciprocal relationship between guru and disciple. Lord Jesus teaches "Take up my yoke, it is light and bearable." So, perhaps the disciple should understand things from this angle. When we commit to guru (Jesus Chruist or other specifically empowered individualks acting on behalf of Lord Paramatma), we take on their karma, which is light. Our karma is not in question, because the wheels keep spinning even if we discontinue action that produces both negative and positive reaction. So, jesus christ also tells his followers to take up the cross as well.

 

There is no jesus or guru or god that allows us to wipe our bloody sins upon. There is absolutely no wevidence anywhere where one has done this. All the stories of libveration from the bonds of materilaism are about devotees who actively commit to guru. Even Ajamila, where it seems that someone relieved him of bad karma from a bad life, even the story of dismas,

 

http://geocities.com/mahaksadasa/dd.html

 

when studies carefully, one will see that such personas acted on instruction of acarya. Ajamila nameed his son Narayana because he had heard from acarya in the distant past. The thioef and murderer dismas also had taken on the yoke of Mary (according to the story, which authenticity can be rightfully questioned, but I personally do not).

 

The acarya will not suffer for us because the acarya is not suffering period. The acarya is beyond the duality of pleasure and misery. Tjhe father did not crucify Lord Jesus, fools who thought jesus christ was desiring their material kingdom assassinated him, but even their murder proved to be quite faulty, because Death has no need to approach one who is beyond the materialistic illusion of birth and death.

 

Just looking at things from a different angle, horrible suffering is undergone by those who have not committed and taken on the light load of the acarya. Only illusion will make one think he no longer has to pay his karmic bills by pledging allegiance to one where reciprocal commitment has not taken place. This reciprocal commitment is called initiation in its tangible form, beyond the scope of ritual and officiousness.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

Great.Thats gives me a lot to work with. Thanks Dharini.

[Dharini]

By Mahak

The acarya will not suffer for us because the acarya is not suffering period.

 

Good point-brilliant actually....

[suchandra]

 

The acarya will not suffer for us because the acarya is not suffering period. The acarya is beyond the duality of pleasure and misery. Tjhe father did not crucify Lord Jesus, fools who thought jesus christ was desiring their material kingdom assassinated him, but even their murder proved to be quite faulty, because Death has no need to approach one who is beyond the materialistic illusion of birth and death.

 

Just looking at things from a different angle, horrible suffering is undergone by those who have not committed and taken on the light load of the acarya. Only illusion will make one think he no longer has to pay his karmic bills by pledging allegiance to one where reciprocal commitment has not taken place. This reciprocal commitment is called initiation in its tangible form, beyond the scope of ritual and officiousness.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Good points, could be that this encloses the whole truth of how people become connected with the transcendental powerhouse of the disciplic succession and the opposite round, become immediately disconnected when disobeying the current link of Krishna's parampara system. And mistaking their present karmic situation of everything still being Krishna's plan.

 

"We have got this body and the mind. And with the mind we have created so many things—“This is my house. This is my wife. This is my children.” Nobody is your. You have come according to your karma, and they have come according to their karma, and it is a play only that one is father, one is mother, one is son. It is by arrangement of the material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ’sya. Everything will be finished in the twinkling of an eye. So actually it has no fact, but we think this is our possession. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said that “My possession means some mental concoction and this lump of body.” Mānasa deha geha. “So therefore, whatever possession I have got, I surrender unto You.” Mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora. This is surrender. Arpilun tuwā pade, nanda-kiśora.So the real process is to surrender to Krishna and act according to your… Yes, Krishna will give you intelligence. First of all we have to become sincere, heart and soul."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.9.12

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Māyāpur, February 19, 1976

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760219SB.MAY.htm?i=1976

[Dharini]

I think some of the conflict comes in as the message of the Christ does not appear much to do with liberation while living. His message seems to be Moksha or liberation from the cycle of births and deaths after death.

 

Although I am not a Bible scholar.