All Incarnation of God Comes from Supersoul?

[CCC]

Hare Krsna!

 

I heard in this forum that all incarnation of God comes from Paramatma, what does it really mean?

[Beggar]

Summary of Srimad Bhagavatam

by Bhurijana Prabhu

Canto One, Chapter Three, Krsna is the Source of All Incarnations

Suta Goswami describes the three roles of the Purusa avataras in the creation of both the total cosmos and the individual universes. (1-4) Suta then briefly describes twenty-two incarnations of God that appear within this universe, but explains that the Lord actually has unlimited incarnations. (5-27) Although innumerable incarnations exist, Krsna is Their fountainhead and is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (28) Suta Goswami explains that the material forms (gross and subtle) of both the Lord (Virata Rupa) and the living beings are actually imaginary. Therefore, learned men describe the glories and pastimes of the Lord's incarnations so that the conditioned souls can be freed from ignorance and achieve ecstatic love for the Supreme Lord. (29-39) Suta Goswami then glorifies the Srimad Bhagavatam as the incarnation of Lord Krsna meant for delivering the conditioned souls of Kali Yuga. He also describes how the Bhagavatam was transferred from Srila Vyasadeva to Sukadeva to Himself (40-44)

1. The Lord, through His Purusa incarnations-- Karanadaksayi Visnu, Garbodaksayi Visnu, and Ksiradaksayi Visnu-- creates the material world to facilitate the misguided ambitions of the Jiva souls. One can perceive the spiritual nature of these incarnations, as well as all the Lord's other incarnations, if one is qualified through his devotional service. (1-4)

2. Through Garbodaksayi Visnu comes innumerable incarnations which are manifested on different planets and in different universes constantly, without cessation, as water flows continuously from a waterfall. (5-27)

3. But Sri Krsna is not an incarnation. Rather He is the original, complete, Supreme Personality of Godhead. (28)

4. One should hear how the Lord descends into the material world, while having no connection with the material world, from bonafide sources like the Srimad Bhagavatam and thus become enriched with knowledge. One should then take shelter of the Lord, become self realized, and see the Lord face to face. (29-39)

5. To reach this stage of perfection, one should hear this Srimad Bhagavatam, the cream of Vedic literatures, with rapt attention from a bonafide spiritual master, and thus learn who is God, what one's relationship is with Him, and what one's ultimate destination is after leaving his body. Such a qualified reader of the Bhagavatam will see Sri Krsna, in person, within the Bhagavatam's pages. (40-44)

[gauragopala dasa]

 

Hare Krsna!

 

I heard in this forum that all incarnation of God comes from Paramatma, what does it really mean?

 

No that is not correct. The three Vishnu's that fascilitate the mahat-tattva of Maha-vishnu - Karanodakasiayi-vishnu, Garbodakasayi-vishnu and Ksirodakasiayi-vishnu (Paramatma), all are expansions of Krishna the original source and cause of all causes. Many Hindu's believe Krishna is the seventh incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

 

When Krishna comes to the material world for sport to kill demons, he manifests as His Vishnu form with the bodily appearance of Krishna (there is no difference) while the original Krishna remains in Goloka Vrndavan and never leaves His pastimes.

 

 

 

 

[shvu]

 

No that is not correct....Many Hindu's believe Krishna is the seventh incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

 

Ah! The all-familiar arrogance again...

 

Yes, what millions of Hindus have believed for a couple of thousand years becomes nonsense when a little Bengali cult with a handful of affiliates quotes a johnnie-come-lately Bengali book about the "real truth".

 

And while you are at it, try 8th incarnation instead of 7th and you may just get slightly closer to the truth.

 

Cheers

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by gauragopala dasa

No that is not correct....Many Hindu's believe Krishna is the eighth incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

CCC This is correct. Krishna is the original cause of all Causes. Being a follower of Prabhupada I think you understand that.

[gHari]

 

Ah! The all-familiar arrogance again...

 

Yes, what millions of Hindus have believed for a couple of thousand years becomes nonsense when a little Bengali cult with a handful of affiliates quotes a johnnie-come-lately Bengali book about the "real truth".

 

And while you are at it, try 8th incarnation instead of 7th and you may just get slightly closer to the truth.

 

Cheers

The Srimad-Bhagavatam is johnnie-come-lately? It is sometimes manifest and sometimes covered but it is eternal. krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [<a href=http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/28/en target=new>SB 1.3.28</a>] establishes Lord Krishna as the greatest incarnation for He comes in the 8th advent in His original most intimate form.

[gHari]

" The philosophical conclusions on the path of bhakti available in the Srimad Bhagavatam have no parallel in any other scripture. Just as all the incarnations of the Lord, like Matsya, Kurma and so on are self manifest and appear and disappear at will similarly, the Srimad Bhagavatam is not a text composed by ordinary mortals. It is transcendental, hence it also appears and disappears by God's will. The Bhagavatam having disappeared has once again appeared on the tongue of Srila Vedavyasa by the causeless mercy of Lord Krsna. The esoteric truth about the Supreme Lord is inconceivable as is the Srimad Bhagavatam. This is the verdict of all the scriptures."

[mahak]

Johnny come lately? Not likely, as Srimad bhagavatam is the very first sound vibration uttered, for all intents and purposes. Srimad bhagavatam is originally seven verses uttered to Lord Brahma by Lord Narayana. How many years ago? Sorry, this computer does not have enough gigabytes to write all the zeroes following the one. Using sacred math, it was nine years ago, and nine is reserved for the Supreme Lord. Back then, there was Lord Narayana, his only begotten son Lord Brahma, and Narada Muni.

 

For the best of informatrions, read the answers by citing the lords version:

 

SB 2.9.31: The Personality of Godhead said: Knowledge about Me as described in the scriptures is very confidential, and it has to be realized in conjunction with devotional service. The necessary paraphernalia for that process is being explained by Me. You may take it up carefully.

SB 2.9.32: All of Me, namely My actual eternal form and My transcendental existence, color, qualities and activities -- let all be awakened within you by factual realization, out of My causeless mercy.

SB 2.9.33: Brahma, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I, the Personality of Godhead.

SB 2.9.34: O Brahma, whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness.

SB 2.9.35: O Brahma, please know that the universal elements enter into the cosmos and at the same time do not enter into the cosmos; similarly, I Myself also exist within everything created, and at the same time I am outside of everything.

SB 2.9.36: A person who is searching after the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, most certainly search for it up to this, in all circumstances, in all space and time, and both directly and indirectly.

SB 2.9.37: O Brahma, just follow this conclusion by fixed concentration of mind, and no pride will disturb you, neither in the partial nor in the final devastation.

 

The purports can be attained by entering the highlighted verse numbers.

[matarisvan]

 

Hare Krsna!

 

I heard in this forum that all incarnation of God comes from Paramatma, what does it really mean?

 

According to Vaishnava traditions Vishnu descends from his abode Vaikunta several times in different forms to protect the righteous. Ten avatars of Vishnu are specially noted and classified. They are

 

Matysa (fish)

Varaha (boar)

Kurma (tortoise)

Narasimha (half human, half lion)

Vamana (Brahmin dwarf and first human form)

Parashurama (Brahmin warrior)

Rama

Krishna

Buddha

Kalki (yet to arrive)

[matarisvan]

 

No that is not correct. The three Vishnu's that the mahat-tattva of Maha-vishnu - Karanodakasiayi-vishnu, Garbodakasayi-vishnu and Ksirodakasiayi-vishnu (Paramatma), all are expansions of Many Hindu's believe Krishna is the seventh incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

When Krishna comes to the material world for sport to kill demons, he manifests as His Vishnu form with the bodily appearance of Krishna (there is no difference) while the original Krishna remains in Goloka Vrndavan and never leaves His pastimes.

 

 

You are the one who is posting nonsense. Who has heard of the Brahma Samhita? You are quoting some unknown source to reject the widely accepted version of Vishnu and his avatars.

 

Maybe you are not from India and do not know these things. You can read the Mahabharata, Vishnu Purana and the Bhagavatam to learn more about Vishnu's avatars.

[gHari]

Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.6.16:

 

<center>

tvattaH pumAn samadhigamya yayAsya vIryaM

dhatte mahAntam iva garbham amogha-vIryaH

so 'yaM tayAnugata Atmana ANDa-kozaM

haimaM sasarja bahir AvaraNair upetam

</center>

tvattaH--from You; pumAn--the puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu; samadhigamya--obtaining; yayA--along with which (material nature); asya--of this creation; vIryam--the potential seed; dhatte--He impregnates; mahAntam--the mahat-tattva, the raw amalgamation of matter; iva garbham--like an ordinary fetus; amogha-vIryaH--He whose semen is never wasted; saH ayam--that same (mahat-tattva); tayA--with the material nature; anugataH--joined; AtmanaH--from itself; ANDa-kozam--the primeval egg of the universe; haimam--golden; sasarja--produced; bahiH--on its outside; AvaraNaiH--with several coverings; upetam--endowed.

My dear Lord, the original puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu, acquires His creative potency from You. Thus with infallible energy He impregnates material nature, producing the mahat-tattva. Then the mahat-tattva, the amalgamated material energy, endowed with the potency of the Lord, produces from itself the primeval golden egg of the universe, which is covered by various layers of material elements.

PURPORT

 

In the previous verses the supremacy of the Personality of Godhead has been established in relation to the living entity and material nature. In this verse it is clearly stated that Lord KRSNa is the source of the greatest ViSNu incarnation, MahA-ViSNu, and that MahA-ViSNu acquires His creative potency from Lord KRSNa. It would therefore be foolish to surmise that Lord KRSNa is an expansion of ViSNu. In this regard the opinion of the demigods, headed by BrahmA, can be taken as final.

 

 

 

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 2.110-114:

 

Therefore Lord Caitanya is the Supreme Absolute Truth. To call Him KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu does not add to His glory.

 

 

But such words from the lips of a sincere devotee cannot be false. All possibilities abide in Him, for He is the primeval Lord.

 

 

All other incarnations are situated in potential form in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations.

 

 

Some say that SrI KRSNa is directly Nara-NArAyaNa. Others say that He is directly VAmana.

 

 

Some say that KRSNa is the incarnation of KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu. None of these statements is impossible; each is as correct as the others.

 

 

 

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 5.128-131:

 

They know that there is no difference between the incarnation and the source of all incarnations. Previously Lord KRSNa was regarded in the light of different principles by different people.

 

 

Some said that KRSNa was directly Lord Nara-NArAyaNa, and some called Him Lord VAmanadeva incarnate.

 

 

Some called Lord KRSNa an incarnation of Lord KSIrodakazAyI. All these names are true; nothing is impossible.

 

 

When the Supreme Personality of Godhead KRSNa appears, He is the shelter of all plenary parts. Thus at that time all His plenary portions join in Him.

 

 

In whatever form one knows the Lord, one speaks of Him in that way. In this there is no falsity, since everything is possible in KRSNa.

 

 

 

The Avataras in Detail ----- http://vedabase.net/tlc/8/en

 

 

 

Overview from a AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada lecture:

 

 

In Bhagavad-gItA also it is confirmed,

 

 

athavA bahunaitena

 

kiM jJAtena tavArjuna

 

viSTabhyAham (idaM kRtsnam)

 

ekAMzena sthito jagat

 

[

Bg. 10.42

]

 

 

EkAMzena. "One My plenary portion..." MahA-ViSNu. For creation of this material world. EkAMzena sthito jagat. And what is that ekAMza? That is described also. Yasyaika-nizvasita-kAlam athAvalambya jIvanti loma-vilajA jagad-aNDa-nAthAH [bs. 5.48]. Loma-vilajA. And innumerable universes are coming out from the hair holes of the body of MahA-ViSNu. Nizvasita-kAlam athAvalambya. His breathing. He is, within the KAraNa Ocean, Causal Ocean, He is sleeping. YaH kAraNArNava-jale bhajati sma yoga-nidrAm [bs. 5.47]. Yoga-nidrA. And while He's sleeping in His yoga-nidrA, innumerable universes are coming out through His breathing and from the air holes. (sound of child yelling) Can you stop that child?

 

 

So this is greatness of KRSNa. This MahA-ViSNu is only kalA-vizeSaH. ViSNur mahAn sa iha yasya kalA-vizeSaH. KalA means portion of the plenary portion. That is called kalA. AMza means plenary portion. And kalA means... So all the incarnation of ViSNu... And KRSNa described in the SrImad Bhagavad, SrImad-BhAgavatam, First Canto, Third Chapter. And at the conclusion it is said, ete cAMza-kalAH puMsaH kRSNas tu bhagavAn svayam [sB 1.3.28]. KRSNa's name is also there, but just to make distinction between all the avatAras and KRSNa, it is concluded: ete, all of them are, ca aMza, some of them are plenary portions, some of them, portion of the plenary portion. In this, they are situated. But the name KRSNa which is there, kRSNas tu bhagavAn svayam... That is stated.

 

 

So we have to study. If we are serious student of KRSNa, then in the zAstras everything is there. So when we understand the greatness of KRSNa, then we become more attached. More attached. The greatness attracts. Suppose a man is very exalted position. He attracts the attention. Similarly, if we know the greatness of... One who does not know the greatness of KRSNa, he thinks KRSNa, "Yes,... That kUpa-maNDUka-nyAya, Doctor Frog: "Maybe little greater than me. That's all." AvajAnanti mAM mUDhAH [bg. 9.11]. Such person thinks KRSNa as one of them, and therefore it has become a very fashionable thing to become KRSNa's avatAra, very cheaply. No. They do not know actually what is KRSNa's position.

 

 

KRSNa's position, if one understands, then he is liberated person. TyaktvA dehaM punar janma naiti mAm eti [bg. 4.9]. He's liberated person. Even in this body. Simply by knowing how great KRSNa is. Simply by knowing this fact, how KRSNa... Then one understands that mattaH sarvaM pravartate. Iti matvA bhajante mAm... Then our bhajana for KRSNa's service will become very much fixed-up and determined. BudhA bhAva-samanvitAH [bg. 10.8]. This is bhAva. BhAva means... One can understand very easily. When you are fully conscious of something, greatness, "Oh, KRSNa is so great," that is called bhAva. That can be understood. It is not very difficult. Because in the zAstras everything is there about KRSNa. Simply we have to take it, accept it.

 

 

And if we do not believe zAstras, then there is no, I mean, use of understanding KRSNa. SAstra-cakSusA. You have to see... KRSNa is adhokSaja, beyond the perception, sense perception. But through the zAstra we can understand little bit of KRSNa. It is very difficult to know. We cannot understand. KRSNa is unlimited. We are limited. Still, whatever limited power we have got, we can understand KRSNa if we follow the zAstra, sAdhu and guru. SAdhu-zAstra-guru-vAkya tinete kariyA aikya.

 

 

So this bhAva stage has to be attained. It is not that artificially we come to the bhAva stage. No. VIta-rAga-bhaya-krodhA man-mayA mAm upAzritAH [bg. 4.10]. These are the qualifications. KRSNa is personally saying. Not all of a sudden we can understand KRSNa. VIta-rAga. The first qualification is to be detached from... Our present qualification is we are too much attached to this material sense enjoyment. Material life means sense enjoyment. Therefore we have to reduce the sense enjoyment by tapasya. Tapasya. Sense enjoyment is not controlled all of a sudden. TapasA brahmacaryeNa tyAgena zauca...zaucena yamena niyamena [sB 6.1.13]. These are the statements. But if you take the devotional service, then everything become very easy to follow, tapasA. BrahmacaryeNa [sB 6.1.13].

 

 

Just like we are advising our student not to have illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. This is tapasya. Because everyone is prone to all these things. Everyone likes illicit sex. Everyone likes to eat meat. Loke vyavAyAmiSa-madya-sevA nityA hi jantoH. JantoH, jantu means animal, or ignorant person. A person who has no knowledge, he also a jantu, animal. So vyavAyAmiSa-madya-sevAH. Sex life and meat-eating, AmiSa, and madya-sevAH, intoxicant, and natural tendency. PravRttir eSA bhUtAnAm. This is pravRtti. They have got inclination. That is material life. AmiSa-madya-sevAH. But they have to be controlled by tapasya. That is tapasya. If because I have got this inclination, I have got a desire to drink or have intoxication, therefore I shall take it.... There is a Bengali song, cakSe yadi lAge bhAla kena dekha nA:(?) "Now if I, my eyes like to see it, why shall I not see?" This is sense enjoyment. This is animalism.

 

 

But when you can control them, that is humanity. Therefore laws are made for the human being, not for the animals. I have several times explained. When there is law on the street, "Keep to the left," it is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs and cows. Say, if the cat, dog, goes to the left or right against the police direction, he's not punished. Because he's animal. Or a child. If he trespasses. But if an adult person transgresses the law, he'll be punished. So the human life has got responsibility.

 

 

What is that responsibility? Tapasya. Here it is said, jJAna-tapasA pUtAH, purified. JJAna, knowledge, and tapasya. Then he's purified. Not that "You can do whatever you like. It has nothing to do with the religion." There are so many rascals" program. "You can eat anything. You can do anything, and still you become a Vedantist." This kind of rascal Vedantists are going on. But here it is said by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, jJAna-tapasA. JJAna-tapasA pUtA mad-bhAvam. Without knowledge, without tapasya, you cannot make any spiritual progress. Not by simple words. That is not possible. Because in the previous verse it has been said that janma karma me divyaM yo jAnAti tattvataH, tyaktvA dehaM punar janma naiti mAm eti kaunteya [bg. 4.9]. So how one can come to KRSNa? MAm eti. That is being described. VIta-rAga-bhaya-krodhAH. VIta-rAga-bhaya-krodhA man-mayA mAm upAzritAH [bg. 4.10]. MAm upAzritAH, to take shelter of KRSNa. To become a devotee of KRSNa, to become KRSNa conscious.

 

 

[matarisvan]

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.6.16:

tvattaH pumAn samadhigamya yayAsya vIryaM

dhatte mahAntam iva garbham amogha-vIryaH

so 'yaM tayAnugata Atmana ANDa-kozaM

haimaM sasarja bahir AvaraNair upetam

 

tvattaH--from You; pumAn--the puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu; samadhigamya--obtaining; yayA--along with which (material nature); asya--of this creation; vIryam--the potential seed; dhatte--He impregnates; mahAntam--the mahat-tattva, the raw amalgamation of matter; iva garbham--like an ordinary fetus; amogha-vIryaH--He whose semen is never wasted; saH ayam--that same (mahat-tattva); tayA--with the material nature; anugataH--joined; AtmanaH--from itself; ANDa-kozam--the primeval egg of the universe; haimam--golden; sasarja--produced; bahiH--on its outside; AvaraNaiH--with several coverings; upetam--endowed.

 

My dear Lord, the original puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu, acquires His creative potency from You. Thus with infallible energy He impregnates material nature, producing the mahat-tattva. Then the mahat-tattva, the amalgamated material energy, endowed with the potency of the Lord, produces from itself the primeval golden egg of the universe, which is covered by various layers of material elements.

 

 

What a funny and incorrect translation! Did you write this yourself or did you copy it from someone?

 

This verse is praising Vishnu as the supreme source of power where puman means Purusha or the male aspect of creation. You are translating puman to 'the original puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu'and completely twisting the verse to mean something else.

 

Why dont you learn sanskrit and come back in a year or two?

Go to a Vaishnava forum like dvaita or ramanuja and ask them if you do not believe me. Many people there know sanskrit and will point out the same error in your translation. The Bhagavatam never says Krishna is the source of Vishnu. Only an unknown book like Brahma Samhita will make such a false statement.

[Beggar]

Only an unknown book like Brahma Samhita will make such a false statement.

Srila Bhakti Rasaka Sridhar Maharaj said that if in fact the Brahma Samhita was written by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Himself, as some people allege, then it would even be more valuable.

[theist]

 

Why dont you learn sanskrit and come back in a year or two?

Go to a Vaishnava forum like dvaita or ramanuja and ask them if you do not believe me. Many people there know sanskrit and will point out the same error in your translation. The Bhagavatam never says Krishna is the source of Vishnu. Only an unknown book like Brahma Samhita will make such a false statement.

 

One thing is obvious is that there are different opinions on this held by different vaisnava lines. The truth will come out eventually to each of us personally and until then why argue about it? It is enough for us now to accept that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate source of all incarnations.

 

It makes for interesting conversation but if we can't keep it cordial then that is nothing more than a sign of our immaturity.

 

The heart will rule in the end anyway no matter who is technically correcr or not.

 

Who can tell the story of one of Mahaprabhu's followers whose heart belonged to Lord Rama and could not be turned to Krsna even though he eventually accepted the Krsna form as the original?

 

I can't remember the detail's so some help would be appreciated.

[shvu]

 

What a funny and incorrect translation! Did you write this yourself or did you copy it from someone?

 

This verse is praising Vishnu as the supreme source of power where puman means Purusha or the male aspect of creation. You are translating puman to 'the original puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu'and completely twisting the verse to mean something else.

 

Why dont you learn sanskrit and come back in a year or two?

Go to a Vaishnava forum like dvaita or ramanuja and ask them if you do not believe me. Many people there know sanskrit and will point out the same error in your translation. The Bhagavatam never says Krishna is the source of Vishnu. Only an unknown book like Brahma Samhita will make such a false statement.

 

This concept of Krishna being the original was not invented by Hare Krishnas. It has been around since the 12th century AD and possibly earlier in North Eastern India along with Radha worship, though in small numbers as both these beliefs do not find a place in literature and therefore are not part of mainstream Vaishnavism.

 

The translation is incorrect, alright. But then, this is not uncommon in Hare Krishna literature. There are instances where they tried to interpret certain Upanishads completely out of context to mean predictions of avatarhood of Chaitanya, etc. If you use the search feature, you may find connected topics. However, right or wrong, the fact that this literature is certified by Prabhupada is good enough for them as most of them are westerners lacking sanskrit knowledge and more importantly they lack knowledge of Hinduism to be aware of mainstream beliefs. They mostly come from Christian backgrounds and are more interested in aligning their Hare krishna beliefs with the bible than with established streams of Vaishnavism.

 

I am inclined towards the Hare Krishna version. Most of the Gods worshipped today (Shiva, Ganesha, Krishna, Rama, Durga) are non-Aryan/non-Vedic in origin and I believe there is a good chance that they are just as old as the Aryan God Vishnu or maybe older. In connection, wikipedia writes Hinduism grew out of the Vedic religion which some of us feel is incorrect and there is a discussion topic open. Today's practices such as idol worship, temples and the popular Gods have nothing to do with the Vedas, but belong to a completely parallel stream which eventually became Hinduism.

 

Cheers

[gHari]

 

What a funny and incorrect translation! Did you write this yourself or did you copy it from someone?

 

This verse is praising Vishnu as the supreme source of power where puman means Purusha or the male aspect of creation. You are translating puman to 'the original puruSa-avatAra, MahA-ViSNu'and completely twisting the verse to mean something else.

Why dont you learn sanskrit and come back in a year or two?

Go to a Vaishnava forum like dvaita or ramanuja and ask them if you do not believe me. Many people there know sanskrit and will point out the same error in your translation. The Bhagavatam never says Krishna is the source of Vishnu. Only an unknown book like Brahma Samhita will make such a false statement.

If one cannot accept the good fortune of the finding of the Sri Brahma Samhita then one can amuse his intellect with this verse from the Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.3.28} which somehow for some reason was missed on this thread:

 

<center>

ete cAMza-kalAH puMsaH

kRSNas tu bhagavAn svayam

indrAri-vyAkulaM lokaM

mRDayanti yuge yuge

</center>

ete--all these; ca--and; aMza--plenary portions; kalAH--portions of the plenary portions; puMsaH--of the Supreme; kRSNaH--Lord KRSNa; tu--but; bhagavAn--the Personality of Godhead; svayam--in person; indra-ari--the enemies of Indra; vyAkulam--disturbed; lokam--all the planets; mRDayanti--gives protection; yuge yuge--in different ages.

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord SrI KRSNa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.

 

 

 

As for the translation of 11.6.16 one needs to follow backwards the context of these praises offered by the demigods. We discover to whom they are specifically offered in His very presence in Srimad-Bhagavatam verse 11.6.5:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>tasyAM vibhrAjamAnAyAM

samRddhAyAM maharddhibhiH

vyacakSatAvitRptAkSAH

kRSNam adbhuta-darzanam

</CENTER>

tasyAm--in that (DvArakA); vibhrAjamAnAyAm--resplendent; samRddhAyAm--very rich; mahA-RddhibhiH--with great opulences; vyacakSata--they saw; avitRpta--unsatisfied; akSAH--whose eyes; kRSNam--Lord KRSNa; adbhuta-darzanam--wonderful to behold.

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In that resplendent city of DvArakA, rich with all superior opulences, the demigods beheld with unsatiated eyes the wonderful form of SrI KRSNa.

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So it would appear that sanskrit learning requires also intelligence and devotion to reach the final proper understanding of the Bhagavatam, otherwise it is simply a mundane skill.

[gHari]

SB 11.6.5: In that resplendent city of Dvārakā, rich with all superior opulences, the demigods beheld with unsatiated eyes the wonderful form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa.

 

SB 11.6.6: The demigods covered the Supreme Lord of the universe with flower garlands brought from the gardens of heaven. Then they praised Him, the best of the Yadu dynasty, with statements containing charming words and ideas.

 

SB 11.6.7: The demigods began to speak: Our dear Lord, advanced mystic yogis, striving for liberation from the severe bondage of material work, meditate with great devotion upon Your lotus feet within their hearts. Dedicating our intelligence, senses, vital air, mind and power of speech to Your Lordship, we demigods bow down at Your lotus feet.

 

SB 11.6.8: O unconquerable Lord, You engage Your illusory energy, composed of three modes, to unleash, maintain and devastate the inconceivable manifest cosmos, all within Your own self. As the supreme superintendent of māyā, You appear to be situated in the interaction of the modes of nature; however, You are never affected by material activities. In fact, You are directly engaged in Your own eternal, spiritual bliss, and thus You cannot be accused of any material infection.

 

SB 11.6.9: O greatest of all, those whose consciousness is polluted by illusion cannot purify themselves merely by ordinary worship, study of the Vedas, charity, austerity and ritual activities. Our Lord, those pure souls who have developed a powerful transcendental faith in Your glories achieve a purified state of existence that can never be attained by those lacking such faith.

 

SB 11.6.10: Great sages, desiring the highest benefit in life, always cherish Your lotus feet within their hearts, which are melted by love for You. Similarly, Your self-controlled devotees, desiring to cross beyond the material kingdom of heaven to achieve opulence equal to Yours, worship Your lotus feet in the morning, at noon and in the evening. Thus, they meditate upon Your Lordship in Your quadruple expansion. Your lotus feet are just like a blazing fire that burns to ashes all the inauspicious desires for material sense gratification.

 

SB 11.6.11: Those about to offer oblations into the fire of sacrifice in accordance with the Ṛg, Yajur and Sāma Vedas meditate on Your lotus feet. Similarly, the practitioners of transcendental yoga meditate upon Your lotus feet, hoping for knowledge about Your divine mystic potency, and the most elevated pure devotees perfectly worship Your lotus feet, desiring to cross beyond Your illusory potency.

 

SB 11.6.12: O almighty Lord, You are so kind to Your servants that You have accepted the withered flower garland that we have placed on Your chest. Since the goddess of fortune makes her abode on Your transcendental chest, she will undoubtedly become agitated, like a jealous co-wife, upon seeing our offering also dwelling there. Yet You are so merciful that You neglect Your eternal consort Lakṣmī and accept our offering as most excellent worship. O merciful Lord, may Your lotus feet always act as a blazing fire to consume the inauspicious desires within our hearts.

 

SB 11.6.13: O omnipotent Lord, in Your incarnation as Trivikrama, You raised Your leg like a flagpole to break the shell of the universe, allowing the holy Ganges to flow down, like a banner of victory, in three branches throughout the three planetary systems. By three mighty steps of Your lotus feet, Your Lordship captured Bali Mahārāja, along with his universal kingdom. Your lotus feet inspire fear in the demons by driving them down to hell and fearlessness among Your devotees by elevating them to the perfection of heavenly life. We are sincerely trying to worship You, our Lord; therefore may Your lotus feet kindly free us from all of our sinful reactions.

 

SB 11.6.14: You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the transcendental entity who is superior to both material nature and the enjoyer of nature. May Your lotus feet bestow transcendental pleasure upon us. All of the great demigods, beginning with Brahmā, are embodied living entities. Struggling painfully with one another under the strict control of Your time factor, they are just like bulls dragged by ropes tied through their pierced noses.

 

SB 11.6.15: You are the cause of the creation, maintenance and destruction of this universe. As time, You regulate the subtle and manifest states of material nature and control every living being. As the threefold wheel of time You diminish all things by Your imperceptible actions, and thus You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

SB 11.6.16: My dear Lord, the original puruṣa-avatāra, Mahā-Viṣṇu, acquires His creative potency from You. Thus with infallible energy He impregnates material nature, producing the mahat-tattva. Then the mahat-tattva, the amalgamated material energy, endowed with the potency of the Lord, produces from itself the primeval golden egg of the universe, which is covered by various layers of material elements.

 

SB 11.6.17: O Lord, You are the supreme creator of this universe and the ultimate controller of all moving and nonmoving living entities. You are Hṛṣīkeśa, the supreme controller of all sensory activity, and thus You never become contaminated or entangled in the course of Your supervision of the infinite sensory activities within the material creation. On the other hand, other living entities, even yogīs and philosophers, are disturbed and frightened simply by remembering the material objects that they have supposedly renounced in their pursuit of enlightenment.

 

SB 11.6.18: My Lord, You are living with sixteen thousand exquisitely beautiful, aristocratic wives. By their irresistible coy and smiling glances and by their lovely arching eyebrows, they send You messages of eager conjugal love. But they are completely unable to disturb the mind and senses of Your Lordship.

 

SB 11.6.19: The nectar-bearing rivers of discussions about You, and also the holy rivers generated from the bathing of Your lotus feet, are able to destroy all contamination within the three worlds. Those who are striving for purification associate with the holy narrations of Your glories by hearing them with their ears, and they associate with the holy rivers flowing from Your lotus feet by physically bathing in them.

 

SB 11.6.20: Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued: After Brahmā, along with Lord Śiva and the other demigods, thus offered prayers to the Supreme Lord, Govinda, Lord Brahmā situated himself in the sky and addressed the Lord as follows.

[realist]

 

Quote:Originally Posted NOT by gauragopala dasa!!

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted ......

No that is not correct. The three Vishnu's that the mahat-tattva of Maha-vishnu - Karanodakasiayi-vishnu, Garbodakasayi-vishnu and Ksirodakasiayi-vishnu (Paramatma), all are expansions of Many Hindu'sbelieve Krishna is the seventh incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

When Krishna comes to the material world for sport to kill demons, he manifests as His Vishnu form with the bodily appearance of Krishna (there is no difference) while the original Krishna remains in Goloka Vrndavan and never leaves His pastimes.

 

 

 

 

 

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Hey matarisvan, I really don't know why you are on these threads speaking your nonsense, at least get your quote right! This is what Gauragopala dasa wrote

 

 

No that is not correct. The three Vishnu's that fascilitate the mahat-tattva of Maha-vishnu - Karanodakasiayi-vishnu, Garbodakasayi-vishnu and Ksirodakasiayi-vishnu (Paramatma), all are expansions of Krishna the original source and cause of all causes. Many 'Hindu's' believe Krishna is the eighth incarnation of Vishnu, that is nonsense and incorrect as the Brahma Samhita tells us

 

When Krishna comes to the material world for sport to kill demons, he manifests as His Vishnu form with the bodily appearance of Krishna (there is no difference) while the original Krishna remains in Goloka Vrndavan and never leaves His pastimes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vigraha]

 

Johnny come lately? Not likely, as Srimad bhagavatam is the very first sound vibration uttered, for all intents and purposes. Srimad bhagavatam is originally seven verses uttered to Lord Brahma by Lord Narayana. How many years ago? Sorry, this computer does not have enough gigabytes to write all the zeroes following the one. Using sacred math, it was nine years ago, and nine is reserved for the Supreme Lord. Back then, there was Lord Narayana, his only begotten son Lord Brahma, and Narada Muni.

 

For the best of informatrions, read the answers by citing the lords version:

 

SB 2.9.31: The Personality of Godhead said: Knowledge about Me as described in the scriptures is very confidential, and it has to be realized in conjunction with devotional service. The necessary paraphernalia for that process is being explained by Me. You may take it up carefully.

SB 2.9.32: All of Me, namely My actual eternal form and My transcendental existence, color, qualities and activities -- let all be awakened within you by factual realization, out of My causeless mercy.

SB 2.9.33: Brahma, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I, the Personality of Godhead.

SB 2.9.34: O Brahma, whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness.

SB 2.9.35: O Brahma, please know that the universal elements enter into the cosmos and at the same time do not enter into the cosmos; similarly, I Myself also exist within everything created, and at the same time I am outside of everything.

SB 2.9.36: A person who is searching after the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, most certainly search for it up to this, in all circumstances, in all space and time, and both directly and indirectly.

SB 2.9.37: O Brahma, just follow this conclusion by fixed concentration of mind, and no pride will disturb you, neither in the partial nor in the final devastation.

 

 

The purports can be attained by entering the highlighted verse numbers.

 

Wonderful and 'confidential' quotes mahak prabhu that only aspiring devotees of Krishna can understand and accept. Hari Bol

[matarisvan]

 

The translation is incorrect, alright. But then, this is not uncommon in Hare Krishna literature. There are instances where they tried to interpret certain Upanishads completely out of context to mean predictions of avatarhood of Chaitanya, etc. If you use the search feature, you may find connected topics. However, right or wrong, the fact that this literature is certified by Prabhupada is good enough for them as most of them are westerners lacking sanskrit knowledge and more importantly they lack knowledge of Hinduism to be aware of mainstream beliefs. They mostly come from Christian backgrounds and are more interested in aligning their Hare krishna beliefs with the bible than with established streams of Vaishnavism.

 

I will not waste my time trying to correct them. If they are interested, they can find someone who knows sanskrit and find out for themselves.

 

I cannot accept a false translation just because it was written by my Guru.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Bhagavat Prabhu (direct disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada),

 

After Srila Prabhupada's departure there is a little known pastime, where Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj helped to reveal the unrivalled perfection of Srila Prabhupada's masterful translation of Bhagavad Gita. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj was given the service by Srila Prabhupada of translating all of His books into the Orissan language. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj was a great scholar who could write and speak in five languages, Orissan, Hindi, Bengali, English, and Sanskrit. He got his degree in English from the University with a minor in Sanskrit. I lived with Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj in the same room for nearly 3 years. He translated Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita with the greatest love and devotion and attention for detail. Because of His vast command of languages He was able to notice little details that others may have overlooked. One thing that was a cause of great transcendental concern for Him was the fact that when Srila Prabhupada translated a word from Sanskrit to English it would not be the same if Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj translated the Sanskrit word directly to Oriya. In other words the English word that Srila Prabhupada used to explain the Sanskrit word had an entirely different meaning than the Oriya word that would normally be used as a translation of this same Sanskrit word. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj was concerned that in translating the literal English into Oriya that many Pandits and Scholars would complain that this was not an accurate translation.

 

 

 

Since Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj did not want to change one single word of His beloved Spiritual Masters books but at the same time be able to defend the scholarships of His Guru Maharaj beyond the shadow of a doubt, He devised a plan for writing down all of the so called contradictions in a list until he completed the entire work. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj then went to a little village to see the now retired Sanskrit professor who had taught Him Sanskrit in college. This man was considered one of the foremost authorities on the Sanskrit Language in India having one of the largest personal libraries on the subject, including one of the best collections of Sanskrit to English Dictionaries. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj knew that this scholars grasp of Sanskrit to English translation would provide him with the evidence he needed to prove the authority of Srila Prabhupada's work.

 

 

After about ten days Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj returned to the little mud hut that we lived in with the Sanskrit professor in tow. The Sanskrit professor introduced himself (I apologize but unfortunately I cannot remember his name) and began glorifying His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada's masterful translation work. The Professor told me that he started studying Sanskrit when he was five years old, now in his late 70's he had been studying the language for over 70 years. He told me how on the first review of his dictionaries he could not find the translations that Srila Prbhupada had made from Sanskrit to English, but he said that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj kept encouraging him to keep looking, assuring him that he would find the translation if he looked long and hard enough. The professor said he would have given up if it were not for Srila Gour Govinda Maharajs insistence that His Guru Maharaj had been accurate and that if he looked hard enough he would find it. Then the professor told me that he found each and every translation that Srila Prabhupada had made. The professor told me that these translations that your Guru has made are the most obscure and brilliant explanations of these words from Sanskrit to English that he had ever seen. The professor admitted that with all of his education and training he could not have thought of these obscure and brilliant meanings that so perfectly expressed the inner truths of the mysteries of the Bhagavad Gita. The professor then said having seen this translation work of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada he was convinced that Srila Prabhupada was the greatest Sanskrit scholar in the history of civilization and must have been directly enlightened by the Supreme Lord Krishna to accomplish this work.

 

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Amazing!!!

 

Of course, being a fan of Shakespeare, who often took liberties with his mother tongue (inventing words and using words in novel ways), I wouldn't care one bit if Srila Prabhupada used meanings not found in *any* dictionary. He was being guided by the Lord from within.

[indulekhadasi]

 

According to Vaishnava traditions Vishnu descends from his abode Vaikunta several times in different forms to protect the righteous. Ten avatars of Vishnu are specially noted and classified. They are

 

Matysa (fish)

Varaha (boar)

Kurma (tortoise)

Narasimha (half human, half lion)

Vamana (Brahmin dwarf and first human form)

Parashurama (Brahmin warrior)

Rama

Krishna

Buddha

Kalki (yet to arrive)

 

According to Jayadeva Goswami's Dasavatara Stotra the 10 avatars are the following:

 

Matsya

Kurma

Varaha

Narasimha

Vamana

Parashurama

Rama

Baladeva

Buddha

Kalki

[Shakti-Fan]

http://bvml.org/SBTP/JD/index.html#1

From Jaiva dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, quoting Bhakti Rasmrta Sindhu by Srila Rupa Goswami,

 

"Apart from these sixty transcendental qualities, Krishna has an additional four qualities, which are not manifest even in the personality of Narayana. These are: 1. Krishna is like an ocean filled with waves of pastimes that evoke wonder within everyone in the three worlds. 2. In His activities of conjugal love, He is always surrounded by His dear devotees who possess unequalled love for Him. 3. He attracts the minds of all three worlds by the melodious vibration of His flute. 4. His personal beauty and opulence are beyond compare. No one is equal to Him, and no one is greater than Him. Thus the Supreme Personality of Godhead astonishes all living entities, both moving and non moving, within the three worlds. He is so beautiful that He is called Krishna."

"Above Narayana, Krishna has four specific transcendental qualities - His wonderful pastimes, an abundance of wonderful associates who are very dear to Him (like the gopis), His wonderful beauty and the wonderful vibration of His flute. Lord Krishna is more exalted than ordinary living beings and demigods like Lord Shiva. He is even more exalted than His own personal expansion Narayana."

[Shakti-Fan]

<table><tbody><tr><td align="center">Madhya-līlā</td><td class="m" align="center">

 

Chapter 23: Life's Ultimate Goal — Love of Godhead</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 23.84-85

 

 

līlā premṇā priyādhikyaḿ

mādhuryaḿ veṇu-rūpayoḥ

ity asādhāraṇaḿ proktaḿ

govindasya catuṣṭayam

evaḿ guṇāś catur-bhedāś

catuḥ-ṣaṣṭir udāhṛtāḥ

 

SYNONYMS

līlā — pastimes; premṇā — with transcendental love; priya-ādhikyam — an abundance of highly elevated devotees; mādhuryam — sweetness; veṇu-rūpayoḥ — of the flute and the beauty of Kṛṣṇa; iti — thus; asādhāraṇam — uncommon; proktam — said; govindasya — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; catuṣṭayam — four special features; evam — thus; guṇāḥ — transcendental qualities; catuḥ-bhedāḥ — having four divisions; catuḥ-ṣaṣṭiḥ — sixty-four; udāhṛtāḥ — declared.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

"'Above Nārāyaṇa, Kṛṣṇa has four specific transcendental qualities — His wonderful pastimes, an abundance of wonderful associates who are very dear to Him [like the gopīs], His wonderful beauty and the wonderful vibration of His flute. Lord Kṛṣṇa is more exalted than ordinary living beings and demigods like Lord Śiva. He is even more exalted than His personal expansion Nārāyaṇa. In all, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has sixty-four transcendental qualities in full.'