Question: Through a book can you contact the spiritual master???

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Mathura, India Oct. 21, 1992

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Who will feel separation? Those special persons, who have realized their immense obligation and indebtedness to Gurudeva for all they have received, and who have rendered service to him with visrambha-bhava, they will weep.

Tamal Krsna Gosvami: Visrambha-bhava. What does that mean?

Bhurijana prabhu: Loyal?

Srila Narayana Maharaja:Visrambha-bhava means visrambhena-guror-seva

Giriraja Svami: Affectionate?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: The service will surely be with affection, but the meaning is somewhat different here. Visrambha-bhava means that there is no consideration, "I'm so low and my Gurudeva is in so high."

Dhanurdara Swami: Reverence.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Awe and reverence will not be there; otherwise one will not be able to weep.

Giriraja Svami: Intimate.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, Visrambha-bhava means intimate seva. The sevaka performs such intimate service to Gurudeva that Gurudeva remains always pleased with him. The Guru will not consider for even a moment that, "He is my servant and disciple." Instead he will feel, "He is so near and dear. He is my heart." Sri Isvara Puripada, the disciple of Srila Madhavendra Puri, and Govinda, the disciple of Isvara Puri, were servants of this caliber.

Tamal Krsna Gosvami: But that is a very rare relationship.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Although it is a rare relationship, it is absolutely necessary for raganuga-bhakti. Without a relationship like this, we cannot weep like Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.

Tamal Krsna Gosvami: How do we come to that stage?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Separation from Gurudeva will be experienced on different levels. When we consider how merciful he was and how much greater he is than ourselves, we feel a certain type of sentiment. However, when we remember how near and dear he was and how much he loved us, then we will weep profusely for him. The gopis can weep so much more than Nanda Baba. Yasoda Ma can also weep more than Nanda Baba, but the gopis can weep even more than.

Tamal Krsna Gosvami: Yasoda Maiya.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yasoda Maiya. This is because the gopis relationship with Krsna is more 'keen' or intimate. We should have this kind of relationship with Krsna, Srimati Radhika, and also with our Gurudeva, Sri Rupa Manjari, Srila Rupa Gosvami, and all others like them. Then we can weep for their mercy. If we have yet to develop an intimate service relationship with our Gurudeva, we cannot imagine our relationship with Sri Rupa Manjari or Srimati Radhika and Krsna. Our advancement depends upon on our 'keen' service - how intensely we serve our Gurudeva. All other relationships and experiences develop on that platform. If we can weep for Gurudeva, we can weep for Srimati Radhika. If we cannot weep for our Gurudeva, we cannot weep for Her. I have experience of that. Whatever we know, we know from Gurudeva, and therefore we should weep in our hearts for him.

[theist]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj, "There is gradation everywhere".

Srila Sridhar Maharaj to Bhargava Prabhu, "It is a system, if you understand the system you can answer all questions".

 

The answer: It IS association in general. There are different gradations of association. Do we desire to personally be in Srila Prabhupada's association at the time of death? Do we wish that we will be so qualified by pleasing him, or he will be so merciful that he will personally come for us? Or will we be satisfied that we already have it all just by reading? Do the pure devotees wish to eternally read about Krsna's pastimes or do they desire to desire to enter into those pastimes?

I refer you back to the quote I offered. That says it very clearly and I have better ways to waste my time then fielding all the questions and objections you may come up with.

 

Take the quote at face value, or not, as you choose. I have no need to convince you of anything.

[theist]

 

Does anybody know of a good home-study PhD. program in particle physics? I've been thinking about going back to school.

The difference Einstein is that the one and only Spiritual Professor lives within the heart of every living being. Not like your mundane school system. His campus is one of consciousness not a mundane location.

 

 

If you don't like the term "living guru", how about "personal guru"? Please don't tell me the books are a person (except in the general sense that everything is a person).

If you think the "personal guru" is his physical form then it doesn't seem you have learned anything about spiritual life yet. Or particle physics either for that matter.

 

Material particles are ever changing.

 

The only particle that has any value is the atma which doesn't change. The awakened atma transmits his message through transcendental sound vibration. Transcendental sound vibration is not material sound dependent on vocal chords and ears alone. Transcendental can be coded into any language which carries it to the hearing. Is it beyond your intelligence to grasp that that same transcendental vibration can also be encoded in written language as well as spoken? s that really so difficult for you guys?

 

You don't like it that others find guru in Prabhupada's purports. So who cares what you like. Better you mind your own business.

[Beggar]

 

Take the quote at face value, or not, as you choose. I have no need to convince you of anything.

The quote will be "taken at face" according to the consciousness of the receiver or reader. The quote may also be viewed from different angles of vision. The quote will have different levels or layers of truth within it. All these things and more are true of every aspect of Krsna Consciousness and every aspect will be one and different from itself and all other aspects of Bhakti. "A drop of the infinite is infinite" and "one drop can inundate the entire universe", eka bindu jagat dubaya.

 

 

C.C. Antya 15.19

 

 

krsna-rupamrta-sindhu, tahara taranga-bindu,

 

eka-bindu jagat dubaya

trijagate yata nari, tara citta-ucca-giri,

taha dubai age uthi' dhaya

 

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SYNONYMS

 

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krsna-rupa--of Krsna's transcendental beauty; amrta-sindhu--the ocean of nectar; tahara--of that; taranga-bindu--a drop of a wave; eka-bindu--one drop; jagat--the whole world; dubaya--can flood; tri-jagate--in the three worlds; yata nari--all women; tara citta--their consciousness; ucca-giri--high hills; taha--that; dubai--drowning; age--forward; uthi'--raising; dhaya--runs.

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TRANSLATION

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"The consciousness of each woman within the three worlds is certainly like a high hill, but the sweetness of Krsna's beauty is like an ocean. Even a drop of water from that ocean can flood the entire world and submerge all the high hills of consciousness.

 

 

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[theist]

 

Like cbrahma, in order to keep my sanity, I've had to step back from active ISKCON participation and mentally re-program.

 

Have I lost the baseline, essential aspects of faith? No.

 

Have I become (more) hard-hearted and inwardly critical and doubting? Unfortunately, I think so.

 

Is the above condition a transitional position? I pray that it is.

 

We should have harden hearts to falsehood and half truths. We should be critical and doubt that which is not true. We should even be critically considering the truth until we realize it for ourselves.

 

Lack of critical thinking keeps the doors of the guru business open for business.

[theist]

 

As Beggar was stating earlier, there are gradations. The Holy Name is considered non-different than Krsna. At the same time, the Holy Name is considered more merciful than Krsna Himself. Srila Prabhupada's purports are indeed profound and can provide immense benefit.

 

I stopped reading after these offensive statements. Prabhupada's puports(vani) are of a lower gradation than his vapuh. What nonsense.

 

The second line is just so much condemnation by cheap praise.

[Beggar]

What experience would one wish to have, that Prabhupada comes for us at the time of death in his Gaura lila form - the form of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada or the form of a sakha, sakhi or manjari, OR in the form of his books? If we are pure and we are hearing the devotees reading his books aloud to us, then if we are most fortunate then that vibration or remembrance will take the full form of a merciful and loving spiritual person to guide us beyond. At that point the vani and the vapu become one although they are always one and different. I only wish that I could be so qualified to have such a glorious passing.

[sanatan]

 

As Beggar was stating...

 

Just my humble opinion. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Both vapuh and vani have their value.

 

Absolutely.

 

 

We should have harden hearts to falsehood and half truths. We should be critical and doubt that which is not true. We should even be critically considering the truth until we realize it for ourselves.

 

Lack of critical thinking keeps the doors of the guru business open for business.

 

Sigh...seems like those who do the least critical thinking are the happiest, in any spiritual endeavor or material area of life.

 

Simple acceptance and subservience without even inward questioning...self-realization or zombiehood?

 

Surely, self-realization must include the facility to enter a transcendental-egoistic and critical state of consciousness at will, to become a madhyama-adhikari as circumstances dictate.

[Beggar]

 

Absolutely.

 

 

 

Sigh...seems like those who do the least critical thinking are the happiest, in any spiritual endeavor or material area of life.

 

Simple acceptance and subservience without even inward questioning...self-realization or zombiehood?

 

Surely, self-realization must include the facility to enter a transcendental-egoistic and critical state of consciousness at will, to become a madhyama-adhikari as circumstances dictate.

 

Sanatana Prabhu, is it theist or Vedesu who has simple acceptance? And which one is actually thinking critically in your opinion? IOW I'm not sure how you are seeing this.

[Malati dasi]

With due respect Theist, I will change the question a little bit. Through his physical person can you contact the Spiritual Master’s teachings ?

I ask the question above because I know, having followed this forum for years, that you mentioned you had physical association with Srila Prabhupad in the 70s. And I know, from a Prabhupad disciple, that you indeed attended a temple sometime during the 70s but DID NOT take initiation from SP.

I want to know if you wouldn’t mind, what made you decide that he was your guru after SP’s had left this planet. Did you NOT recognize him as a pure devotee of the Lord when he was in front of you as a walking, talking person talking about Krishna?

Many of the senior forummers here are his disciples who fully surrendered a part of their lives by serving SP and his mission.

I have noticed that you have written 12,000 + posts, the most amongst all of us. But you know, most of the time, TALK IS CHEAP !

[Ashvatama]

 

The great transcendental high tide of Krishna Conscious bliss, experienced in the mid sixties and very early seventies, can again be reached. Some older devotees say that if you look hard enough, especially in New York and San Francisco, where it all began in the West, you can still see high tide mark of that transcendental ocean of bliss Srila Prabhupada carried with him.

 

To have been there like Thiest was is the most fortunate thing that could happen to a living entity. Thiest is one of those devotee's that can see the high tide mark because he still carries it with him in his heart. The impressions he has of Prabhupada will stay with anyone who met him, eternally. With all due respects, this is something you should think about Malati dasi. The contribution Thiest has done on these threads are wonderdul. I know of people who have read his comments, started reading Prabhupada's books and have moved into the ISKCON Temple.

[theist]

 

With due respect Theist, I will change the question a little bit. Through his physical person can you contact the Spiritual Master’s teachings?

No offense but your question needs some tweeking. There is no such thing as a "physical person." All persons are spiritsoul.

You are talking of his human vehicle by which he made his presence known to us through our bodies senses.

And the answer to that is of course. But if you ananlyze what is special about association with a pure devotee in this human form it always comes back to his vani. Even if you are sitting in the same room where he is lecturing about Krsna you are there to absorb his vani. Is that not correct.

I don't discount thaat the mere presence of the pure devotee can be purifying but if we notice what Srila Prabhupada was always doing was speaking about Krsna and giving instructions about Krsna to those who found themselves in his presence.

Once you stop seeing the spiritual master as a "physical person" it all becomes much clearer.

 

I ask the question above because I know, having followed this forum for years, that you mentioned you had physical association with Srila Prabhupad in the 70s. And I know, from a Prabhupad disciple, that you indeed attended a temple sometime during the 70s but DID NOT take initiation from SP.

I was in his presence a few times like in Ratha-yatras and Srimad Bhagavatam class so that association was in a general way though very special and personal to me. I have said on this forum many times that I lived in a temple for about six months in 1971 and left because the of several factors not the least being I was a crazy kid spaced out from all the LSD and could not handle the rigorous discipline.

No I did not every take a formal intiation from Srila Prabhupada. Nor should I have seeing as I have never been able to keep up the proper practice of sadhana bhakti for more then a short period of time here and there.

 

I want to know if you wouldn’t mind, what made you decide that he was your guru after SP’s had left this planet. Did you NOT recognize him as a pure devotee of the Lord when he was in front of you as a walking, talking person talking about Krishna?

Srila Prabhupada is still a walking talking person. You must stop thinking of him as a human form that needs food water air and passing urine and stool and is subject to death.

In those 12,000 posts I am sure you will never find one where I call myself a disciple of Srila Prabhupada either while he was here as vapuh or now purely as vani. I am certainly not qualified as anything resembling a disciple. I am just a general theist who accepts Lord Caitanya as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unfortunately even while accepting on one level I remain envious on deeper levels.

The transcendental devotee is potent because his teaching on Krsna are coming from the liberated platform and thus are transcendenbtal vibration. That is why they can not only liberate us from matter but can awaken love for krsna within us through the principle of resonance.

There is no difference between the pure devotees spoken and written words. You may not care for that idea for some reason and that is your business. Perhaps you could give me a reason why what Srila Prabhupada told Paramahamsa in the quote below is incorrect.

Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.-conv. 1974

In those 12,000 posts I am sure you will never find one where I call myself a disciple of Srila Prabhupada either while he was here as vapuh or now purely as vani. I am certainly not qualified as anything resembling a disciple. I am just a general thesit who accepts Lord Caitanya as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unfortunately even while accepting on one level I remain envious on deeper levels.

 

 

Many of the senior forummers here are his disciples who fully surrendered a part of their lives by serving SP and his mission.

I have noticed that you have written 12,000 + posts, the most amongst all of us. But you know, most of the time, TALK IS CHEAP !

Yes I am a CHEAP TALKER as you have so kindly pointed out. But I might remind you that hearing and speaking what one has heard is the center piece of the process of sadhana bhakti called sravanam kirtan.

So talk is only cheap when it is sound vibration not associated with krsna consciousness or when using Krsna philosophy to pose as a devotee for cheap adoration.

[theist]

 

@theist: last time you said, you are not advaitist, but you talk now about swan, symbol of advaita... Is there a deeper meaning in this ?

 

i'm not argueing about the point you tryed to say, just interested in symbology- is there a deeper symbolic meaning in it

 

The swan is a metaphor for someone who is only interested in taking the very essence of something will leaving behind that which is nonessential. Taken from a swan's eating habit of taking only the nectar from the stem of the lotus flower. That's all. Nothing to do with advaita.

[Sarva gattah]

 

There is no difference between the pure devotees spoken and written words. You may not care for that idea for some reason and that is your business. In those 12,000 posts ..... I am just a general theist who accepts Lord Caitanya as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

There is a difference however, between being a Prabhupada disciple and being a Prabhupada disciple. In India many think they are Brahmana because they are born in a Brahmana family however, real authentic Brahmana qualities are firmly established within the heart and who acts like a Brahmana Similarly, a real disciple of Prabhupada is one who accepts him in their heart after personally meeting him.

 

It is not possible to take imitation from Prabhupada after his departure although, for those who previously met him personally before 1977, they also can/have accepted him as their Spiritual Master or teacher in their hearts because the words and chanting of Krishna's name imparted to them by a pure devotee, in Person, like Prabhupada (representing Krishna) is always with them beyond the biological and ethereal vessel Prabhupada disguised himself in. Therefore, the relationship for the many dedicated souls that did not take formal initiation off Prabhupada is different from the formal ceremonial initiation around 4,700 disciples of Prabhupada experienced. This is confirmed as follows

 

Srila Prabhupada – “I think George Harrison does not require to become my formal disciple because he is already more than my disciple”. Srila Prabhupada Letter to Syamasundara, Los Angeles, 12 April, 1970

If Prabhupada is our personal teacher (meaning when he was here in his physical presents 1965-77 in the West) then he is our Guru or Spiritual Master regardless, as in the case of George Harrison.

 

On the other hand, those who have not meet him personally, but associate with him through his books, they can contact Prabhupada personally through the Gaudiya disciplic succession, meaning they must find a suitable Prabhupada disciple or Gaudiya math Guru, test them to see if he or even she is genuine, and then take initiation off them. To be safe, the written must lead us to one who lives Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrita. GOOD ASSOCIATION IS SO IMPORTANT

[mjan]

@theist: ok

[sanatan]

 

Sanatana Prabhu, is it theist or Vedesu who has simple acceptance? And which one is actually thinking critically in your opinion? IOW I'm not sure how you are seeing this.

 

Beggar...I'm looking at this more in a self-critical/self analytical way than anything, lamenting my own lack of simple acceptance and my tendency to think over-critically. I wasn't referring to theist or vedusu prabhus at all.

 

But, now that you ask...I consider theist to be a critical and very insightful thinker.

 

Vedesu, I've only recently encountered here, and haven't formed an opinion about beyond that he seems intelligent, knowledgeable, and respectful of other members.

 

Simple acceptance can happen on a lot of levels...on some levels I do accept spiritual things simply, on others I don't, and that probably holds true for most of us here...otherwise, we wouldn't be hashing it out.

ys, sanatan

[theist]

Well Sarva we wil have to agree to disagree on many points while agreeing on others. No problem.

 

I am certainly no ritvik which I often get mistaking for, much to my displeasure.

 

One thing we can agree on is one is a disciple who follows the discipline. Without following the discipline there is no meaning to disciple. And that person is not me. So far in this life I am just someone whose curiousity about Krsna has lead my to accumulate some good sukriti ( for which I am thankful) and nothing more than that.

[theist]

—

 

Los Angeles

25 January, 1969

69-01-25

 

My Dear Kirtanananda,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 18, January 1969, and I have carefully noted the contents. I am encouraged to know that you are very enthusiastic about our projects for developing New Vrindaban. So far as the school goes, we have many qualified teachers, and they are all enthusiastic about going there and beginning their teaching work. The only thing is that there is as of yet no place to accommodate these teachers. So as soon as these facilities are constructed we can at once start at full force in setting up our Krishna Consciousness school program.

You have asked some questions, and I will answer them herewith. The first question is, "When making arati offerings, is it proper to meditate on the different parts of the Lord's Body?'' The answer is that there is no need to meditate in that way. The Lord is actually there with you, and you are seeing all of His parts of the Body, so there is no need to meditate in that way. In regard to the other questions, food should be offered before arati. In the morning, after arati, you can offer some food and then perform kirtana.

Regarding your question about the disciplic succession coming down from Arjuna, it is just like I have got my disciples, so in the future these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession. So in one line of disciples we may not see another name coming from a different line. But this does not mean that person whose name does not appear was not in the disciplic succession. Narada was the Spiritual Master of Vyasadeva, and Arjuna was Vyasadeva's disciple, not as initiated disciple but there was some blood relation between them. So there is connection in this way, and it is not possible to list all such relationships in the short description given in Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth. So there is no difference of opinion of understanding Krishna between ourselves and Arjuna. Another example is that a tree has many branches, and you will find one leaf here and another leaf there. But if you take this leaf and the other leaf and you press them both, you will see that the taste is the same. The taste is the conclusion, and from the taste you can understand that both leaves are from the same tree.

Regarding the problem with your father, it is not good to fight with one's father, but if he is not going to give you the money, it may be necessary to take legal steps. Since the money is to be used in Krishna's service, you should try to get it.

I have heard from Syama Dasi that she has infected her finger, and I will be glad to know of the particulars so I may give her advice in this matter. I hope this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

NB: I understand from Hayagriva that you have at New Vrindaban an edited manuscript of Easy Journey To Other Planets. Send this copy to me immediately because in London, Mukunda is attempting to have this published and I would like to read the edited version and send it on to him. So far as your idea of editing the lectures which you started to edit in Montreal, the idea is very nice. ACB

P.S. You will be pleased to know that I have got now my immigration visa card (___ Blue Card) ACB

 

"Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. "

If someone has a meaning to this statement other than the obvious please present it.

[Beggar]

 

—

 

"Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. "

If someone has a meaning to this statement other than the obvious please present it.

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Sri Guru and His Grace

Chapter Ten, Instructing Spiritual Masters

Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

Devotee: Can you explain how the principle of disciplic succession works? I Was under the impression that in your teaching there must ke an unkroken chain of disciplic succession beginning with God Himself, in order for the knowledge to be properly understood. But when I read Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I found that the disciplic succession contains only thirty-eight names, although it says that the system is fifty centuries old. Is this a complete list, or are some names left out? How are we to understand these apparent historical discrepancies? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Our guru parampara, disciplic succession, follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga janera jivana : the highest truth of Krsna consciousness comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus.

Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; the substantial thing is siksa, or spiritual instruction. And if our siksa and diksa gurus or instructing and initiating spiritual masters are congruent, then we are most fortunate. There are different gradations of spiritual masters. In the scriptures, the symptoms of the guru and the symptoms of the disciple have been described: the guru must be qualified in so many ways, and the disciple must also be qualified. Then when they come in connection, the desired result will be produced.

We are concerned with Krsna consciousness, wherever it is available. In the Bhagavad-gita and especially in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krsna says, "I start the Krsna consciousness movement, but gradually by the enervating influence of the material world, it weakens. When I find that it has diminished considerably, I return and begin a fresh movement. Again, when I find that it is becoming degraded by the adverse influence of the environment, I send one of my representatives to clear the path and give some fresh energy, invest some fresh capital in my Krsna consciousness movement."

What is Krsna consciousness? We must examine the standard of knowledge. The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading what Krsna consciousness really is. Krsna consciousness is not a trade; it is not anyone's monopoly. The sincere souls must thank their lucky stars that they can appreciate what Krsna consciousness is, wherever it may be.

Devotee: How are we to understand that in the history of our disciplic succession, it appears that there are gaps where there was no initiating guru present to formally accept disciples?

Spiritual Light Years

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We are not concerned with a material connection. The mediator is not this flesh and body as we generally think. In studying the development of scientific thought, we may connect Newton to Einstein, leaving aside many unimportant scientists. We may trace the development of science from Galileo to Newton, and then to Einstein, neglecting the middle points. If their contributions are taken into account, then the whole thing is taken into account, and lesser scientists may be omitted. When a long distance is to be surveyed, the nearest posts may be neglected. Between one planet and another, the unit of measurement is the light year; distance is calculated in light years and not from mile to mile, or meter to meter. In the disciplic succession, only the great stalwarts in our line are considered important.

Devotee: There was one question still in my mind on guru parampara which was not clarified. Between Baladeva Vidyabhusana and Jagannatha Dasa Babaji is a gap of almost a hundred years. How is it that between the two of them no one is listed in our guru parampara ?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We have to forget material consideration when we consider the spiritual line. Here in this plane, the spiritual current is always being disturbed and interrupted by material obstructions. Whenever truth is interrupted by a material flow and becomes mixed or tampered with, Krsna appears to again reinstate the truth in its former position of purity (yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata ). That attempt is always being made by the Lord and his devotees.

The flow of spiritual truth is a living thing, not a dead thing. The vigilant eye of the Lord is always over our heads, and whenever it is necessary to keep the current pure and flowing in full force, help descends from above. Krsna says to Arjuna, "What I say to you today, I spoke to Vivasvan many, many years ago. Now, by the influence of material conception, that very truth has become contaminated, and so again I say the same thing to you today."

Religious Mutations

Here in the material world, the material consideration is always tampering with the spiritual current; the purity of the truth is always being disturbed. So, sometimes Krsna has to come himself, and sometimes he sends his personal representative to again reestablish the truth in its former and pure state.

When the truth is sufficiently covered, disturbed, and mutilated by the influence of maya, the illusory energy, then an attempt is made by the devotees of the Lord, or by the Lord himself, to rejuvenate it and return it to the previous standard of purity. We cannot expect truth to continue here in this world of misunderstanding without any tampering or interruption. It is not possible.

The intelligent will understand how to apply these principles practically. Suppose we are writing a history: we will note the main figures in the history, set aside those who are not so qualified, and begin the dynasty in order of their importance. Those who are negligible will not be mentioned. In a similar way, those who are really thirsty for spiritual truth like to see the line of pure spiritual heritage. They search out where it is to be found, connect the dynasty of stalwart teachers together, and say "This is our line."

The disciplic succession is not a bodily succession. Sometimes it is present, and sometimes it is lost and only appears again after two or three generations, just as with Prahlada Maharaja. He was a great devotee, but his son was a demon; then again his grandson was a devotee. Even in the physical line we see such interruptions. In the spiritual line we also see the channel of truth affected by the influence of maya or misconception. So, the experts will seek out the important personages in the line.

Copernicus, Galileo, Newton and Einstein

Suppose a scientist researches some truth. After a few generations, another scientist comes and takes up that thread and continues his research. Then after a few more generations, another comes and takes up that thread and goes on. If we are to understand the real channel through which the particular research is progressing, we will have to study the important thinkers who helped bring it out.

We see that Copernicus has contributed something before Galileo began, then Newton came. Then there may be a gap for some time, and from Newton, we find that Einstein took it up. In this way, there may be a gap, but still that thread is continued. An intelligent man will see that it began with a particular person, and then it came to another, and then came here. That will be the proper line of research. So, in the spiritual line this also holds true.

Those who cannot understand this simple point are guided by physical considerations. They do not understand what is real spiritual truth. For them, the physical continuation is the guru parampara. But those who have their spiritual eyes awakened say, "No. What was there in the first acarya is not found in the second or the third. But again we find the same standard of purity in the fourth acarya. " The Gaudiya sampradaya of Mahaprabhu is one, and whoever contributes to that real line will be accepted.

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana's contribution to the sampradaya is no less important than that of the other great stalwarts in the line. He may be a member of another line, the Madhva sampradaya in the physical sense, but his contribution, especially in attracting people to Gaudiya Vaisnavism with his commentary on the Vedanta-sutra, cannot be neglected by the students of posterity. So, his contribution has been utilized by our acaryas, considering the degree, the essence and the purity of his thought in our spiritual line.

Sastra guru, siksa guru, diksa guru, and nama guru are all taken together; in this way, a real channel has been given to save us, to keep up the flow of the highest truth from that world to this world. This policy has been adopted by the acaryas. Wherever we have found any contribution that is, by the will of Krsna, the highest contribution to the line, we have accepted . So, we accept sastra guru, siksa guru, diksa guru, mantra guru, nama guru--we accept them all as our guru .

We give respect to Ramanuja, who is the head of another school of Vaisnavas, but we do not give respect to a sahajiya, an imitationist who is in the line of Mahaprabhu only in the physical sense, but who is mutilating and tampering with the real teachings of Mahaprabhu. The imitationists are not considered. Although in a physical sense, they are in the line of Mahaprabhu and Rupa and Sanatana, when we go to judge the very spirit of the line we see that they are nowhere. Their connection with Mahaprabhu is only a physical imitation.

On the other hand, we find that Ramanuja has made a substantial contribution to Vaisnavism, Madhvacarya has given a sufficient contribution to Vaisnavism, and Nimbarka has also made his contribution, so we accept them, according to our necessity. But we reject the physical so-called current-keepers because what is found there is all mutilated and tampered.

There is a proverb. "Which is more useful: the nose or the breath?" The intelligent will say that the breath is more essential than the nose. To sustain the life, the nose may be cut off, but if the breath continues, one may live. We consider the breath to have more importance than the nose. The physical form will misguide people to go away from the truth and follow a different direction.

We don't consider the body connection important in the acaryaship. It is a spiritual current, and not a body current. The disciple of a true devotee may even be a nondevotee. We admit that, because we see it, and the Lord Himself says in Bhagavad-gita, sa kaleneha mahata, yogo nastah parantapa : "The current is damaged by the influence of this material world." In the line, some are affected, go astray, and may even become nondevotees. So, the continuation through the physical succession is not a safe criterion to be accepted. We must trace only the current of spiritual knowledge.

[Beggar]

Sri Guru and His Grace

Chapter Ten, Instructing Spiritual Masters

Srila Sridhar Maharaj, (Continuation)

 

Wherever we can get that, we must accept it, even if it comes from the Ramanuja, Madhva, or Nimbarka sampradaya. As much as we get from them substantially, we accept, and we reject the so-called followers of our own tradition if they are mere imitationists. The son of a political leader may not be a political leader. A political leader may also have a political succession, and his own son, although brought up in a favorable environment, may be rejected. A doctor's son may not be a doctor. In the disciplic order also, we admit the possibility that they may not all come up to the same standard. Those who do not, should be rejected.

And if the truth is found in a substantial way somewhere else, that should be accepted. Wherever there is devotion and the correct consideration about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, our guru is there. Who is our guru? He is not to be found in the physical form; our guru is to be traced wherever we find the embodiment of the pure thought and understanding which Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu irnparted to save us.

Baladeva Vidyabhusana was very akin to the Madhva sampradaya. But when he came in connection with Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, he showed great interest in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. He has also commented on the Srimad-Bhagavatam and Jiva Goswami's Sat Sandarbha. And that enlightened thought is a valuable contribution to our sampradaya. We cannot dismiss him. He is our guru.

At the same time, if my own relatives do not give recognition to my guru or to the service of Mahaprabhu, I must eliminate them. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada has explained the siksa guru parampara in this way. Wherever we find the extraordinary line of the flow of love of God, and support for the same, we must bow down. That line may appear in a zigzag way, but still, that is the line of my gurudeva. In this way it is accepted. We want the substance, not the form.

The Zigzag Line of Truth

We have left all social concerns and so many other shackles. For what? For the Absolute Truth. And wherever I shall find that, I must bow down my head. And if a great soul shows us, "This is the path to where you will find your thirst quenched. The line is in this zigzag way," we must accept that for our own interest. We are worshipers not of form, but of substance. If the current of spiritual substance comes another way, but I think that I must try to go this way to reach my goal, it is only jealousy, blind tenacity to stick to the physical thing. We must free ourselves from this material contamination and try to understand the value of spiritual truth. We should always be prepared for that. We must follow what is necessary, for our own interest.

I am not a servant of A, B, C, or D. I am a servant of Mahaprabhu. I may have to turn this way or that way, or whatever way will be favorable to reach my Lord. Wherever I feel the presence of my Lord in an intense form, I must be attracted to that side. We are out for that thing, and not for any fashion or formality; that will hamper our cause.

Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya, mam ekam saranam vraja. Wherever we shall find him, we must run in that direction. The direction may not be always straight. It may go in a zigzag way, but if Krsna comes from that side, I must run there. Again if he appears on this side, I must run to this side. My interest is with him. Not that we can challenge, "Why did Krsna appear here, and why is he appearing there? That may be a doubtful thing, so I must stay on this side." No. If I have genuine appreciation for the real thing, the proper thing, I must go to that side, the side of Krsna.

If I am blind, that is another case. Then, I must have to suffer for my inability. But, if anyone has the ability to understand things properly, he will run wherever he finds help. If a man in a boat is passing through the current and finds himself in danger, then from whatever side help may come, he must run to that side.

If we are worshipers of Siva, when we understand the special superiority of Narayana, should we stick to Siva? And if we are worshipers of Narayana and are shown the superiority of Krsna, should we stick to our Narayana worship? And then should we not try to go from Krsna's Bhagavad-gita to Srimad-Bhagavatam ? One may think, "I have read the Bhagavad-gita, I like the Krsna who is the speaker of the Gita. " Then when the Srimad Bhagavatam is given to us, should we stick to that Gita Krsna, or should we try to go to the Krsna given in Srimad-Bhagavatam ? If we have our interest in Krsna, we must run to his side, wherever he appears.

In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta the story is told of how Gopa-kumara, by chanting his Gopala mantra, gradually leaves one stage and progresses to the next. There, the gradation of devotion is traced from the karma-kanda brahmana, to a devotee king, then to Indra, then to Brahma, then to Siva, from him to Prahlada, then to Hanuman, then the Pandavas, then to the Yadavas, to Uddhava, and finally to the gopis.

In this zigzag way he is passing. In the sincerity of his quest, his thirst is not being quenched. He is going from this side, to that side, and going up. So, all of them have their guru parampara. There is Prahlada's guru parampara, Hanuman's guru parampara, the Pandava's guru parampara, Mahadeva's guru parampara. They have their own guru parampara. Brahma and Mahadeva are gurus themselves; they are the creators of their own lines of guru parampara, but Gopa-kumara passes them also. Why? His thirst is not quenched until he goes to Vrndavana. So, the Brhad-bhagavatamrta has shown us the line of guru parampara, or the real line of our quest, of our search.

If we are sincerely searching after real truth, then wherever we go may be a contribution to our experience for further preaching in the future. If we go somewhere, hoping with all sincerity that our thirst may be quenched there, but find that it is not quenched, and feel some uneasiness, then, by the grace of the Lord, a connection with higher truth will comes, and we will go somewhere else, thinking that there our thirst will be quenched. Gradually we will again find dissatisfaction, the need for something higher, and again we will progress further. In this way, we may cross many guru paramparas before ultimately attaining the Vraja lila of Krsna, as given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

We are not interested in fashion or form; if we want the real truth, then wherever it will be found, we must accept it. Mahaprabhu says, "Kiba vipra, kiba nyasi sudra kene naya, yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya : Anyone, regardless of caste or social position, may become guru if he knows the science of Krsna." Sometimes the father may not be our guardian. Our uncle may be our guide, and not the father. It is possible. The line of interest is to be considered the most important. So, our line is the siksa guru parampara.

I am thankful to those that are helping my spiritual understanding not only in a formal way, but in the real sense. Whoever is untying the knots of our entanglement in this material world, giving us light, and quenching our thirst for inner understanding and satisfaction is our guru. In this way, we live on the contribution of all these spiritual masters. They are all our siksa gurus. All the Vaisnavas are more or less our instructing spiritual masters. Our spiritual life may live on their contribution. But we do not accept the imitationists. They are our enemies, asat-sanga, bad association. They will take us away from the real path of understanding and progress.

We must ask our sincere hearts, "From whom do I really get the benefit of spiritual life?" Our sincere conscience will be the best judge, not form. If in an earthen pot there is Ganges water, and in a golden pot there is ordinary water, which should we select? In a case like that, brahmanas, the intelligent class of men, take the holy Ganges water in the earthen pot. So, the substance contained, and not the container, should be given the real importance .

Am I This Body?

I am not this physical body. My own physical identification should be challenged if I am too much addicted to the physical guru parampara. "Who am l? Am I this physical body?" If I am spiritual, then in the spiritual sphere I shall have to look with spiritual eyes, and pursue whoever will come before me who is really following the path of Mahaprabhu.

When the Pandavas retired to the Himalayas, Yudhisthira Maharaja was going ahead. Nobody believed they would fall. Arjuna couldn't believe that his brothers had fallen. But even after Arjuna had fallen, a dog was going on, following Maharaja Yudhisthira. We may see many men fall down in the path of our journey towards the spiritual goal, but still we should try to reach the goal. And with the help of whoever comes along, I shall go.

Some may be eliminated; even a madhyama-adhikari guru may sometimes be eliminated when he falls down. It is not a happy thing, but it may even occur that my guru was going ahead, taking me forward and fell down. Then with fresh energy, invoking the help of the Lord, I shall have to go on. Even such a disaster may come in our journey. But still, we must not be cowed down. Sometimes alone, and sometimes with company we must go on.

First there must be sukrti, accumulated merit, and then sraddha, faith will guide us. The quality of faith must be examined. Sraddha, faith, is a general term, but sraddha may be defined into different classes. The high form of faith will be our fare on the way back to Godhead. Sometimes we may find co-workers, and sometimes we may have to go alone. What of that? We cannot but go to the goal because we shall have the grace of so many unseen gurus.

Unseen Gurus

There are others also who are working, and their ideal will inspire me, although physically I am not seeing any companion or any follower with me. The inspiration of the unseen gurus will be our fare. They will inspire us to go on with the journey. And our own sincere hankering for the truth will be our real guide. That is guru parampara.

Who is guru? Is guru a body? Or is the guru a vairagi, a renunciant? Or is the guru only a formal guise, a hypocrite who is showing the appearance of a sadhu, but within is doing something else? Who is a guru? Only one who will exclusively guide me to Krsna and Mahaprabhu, with devotion . He is my guru, whatever he may be.

Mahaprabhu told Ramananda Raya, "Ramananda, why do you shrink away? Do you think that I am a sannyasi and you are a grhastha ? You are always hesitating to reply to my questions. Do you think it does not look well for you to advise a sannyasi brahmana ? Don't hesitate. You know Krsna best. Give Krsna to me. Have courage." In this way, Mahaprabhu was encouraging Ramananda. "By the grace of Krsna, you have that capital. Give it to me. You are a real capitalist. I have come to preach to the world that you are the wealthiest capitalist of the spiritual world. And that must be used for the good of the public. Don't hesitate. Don't shrink away. Come out."

Ramananda said, "Yes, it is your capital. You have deposited it with me, and today you have come to withdraw it from me. It is your property. I understand. And you press and push me to take it out. All right. I am a mere instrument, used by you. Whatever you want me to say, I am ready to say." In this way, Ramananda was going on. But is Ramananda a member of a sampradaya ? We are so much indebted to Ramananda Raya, but he is not in the guru parampara. Still, he is more than many of the gurus who are in the guru parampara.

Srimati Radharani is not in the guru parampara. Should we dismiss her? First there should be guru, and then there is the question of parampara. The question of first importance is who is guru? And then there can be a chain of them coming down.

Alexander the Great--Formbreaker

Sometimes the formal must be left aside. Once, Alexander the Great was with his father, and they came upon a chariot with a thick knot tied in its rope. There was an inscription above the knot, and there it was written, "Whoever can untie this knot will be a great king in the future." The young Alexander asked his father, "What is it Papa?" His father replied, "This knot has been firmly tied here, and there it is written that whoever can unloose it will be a great king in the future." Alexander said, "I shall do it." He took out his sword and cut the rope. Is it clear? The formality was not kept. A man stood by the side. He came out and said, "Yes, he will be a great king. It cannot be otherwise." The formality was left aside, the realistic view taken, and immediately Alexander cut the Gordion knot. It is a famous story. Sticking to formality, he would have been lost. This happened also in the case of Columbus. Someone challenged, can you make an egg stand on a nail? Columbus pushed it in, a portion broke and he stood it on the nail and said, "Yes, I have done so." This is practical knowledge.

So, the real disciplic line provides practical knowledge in support of the divine love which is coming down. We must bow down our heads wherever we find support of that. We should not become formalists, but substantialists; not fashionists, not imitationists, but realistic thinkers. That should always be our temperament.

[theist]

I found this statement of Sridhar maharaja especially pertinent to this thread

 

 

 

The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading what Krsna consciousness really is.

[theist]

Further on we find this.

 

 

We see that Copernicus has contributed something before Galileo began, then Newton came. Then there may be a gap for some time, and from Newton, we find that Einstein took it up. In this way, there may be a gap, but still that thread is continued. An intelligent man will see that it began with a particular person, and then it came to another, and then came here. That will be the proper line of research. So, in the spiritual line this also holds true.

Those who cannot understand this simple point are guided by physical considerations. They do not understand what is real spiritual truth. For them, the physical continuation is the guru parampara. But those who have their spiritual eyes awakened say, "No. What was there in the first acarya is not found in the second or the third. But again we find the same standard of purity in the fourth acarya. " The Gaudiya sampradaya of Mahaprabhu is one, and whoever contributes to that real line will be accepted.

[Beggar]

 

I found this statement of Sridhar maharaja especially pertinent to this thread

I don't thinking he meant reading like reading words on a page. Srila Sridhar Maharaj uses phrases like, "reading the environment":

 

<cite></cite>

Dictionary.com 1.1

1.to look at carefully so as to understand the meaning of (something written, printed, etc.): to read a book; to read music.

So one can "look carefully so as to understand the meaning of" what he/she has also heard, or experienced etc. such as "reading the environment".

[theist]

Too many wonderful quotes are to be found in this compilation of Sridhar Maharaja's to post without simply copy and pasting the whole thing as Beggar has already done.

 

Let us read and reread his words over and over until the truth of them takes a firm hold in our consciousness.

[Shakti-Fan]

Eulogy of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

(The Harmonist, Dec. 1931, vol. XXIX No. 6)

It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase... The mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves... Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the powers of the pure devotee of Godhead.

His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought, the works of Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krishna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krishna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the transcendental sound appearing on his lips. Before we open any of the books penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude which serves as the indispensable prerequisite to approach its study. It is by neglecting to remember this fundamental principle that the empiric pedants find themselves so hopelessly puzzled in their vain endeavor to reconcile the statements of the different texts of the scriptures. The same difficulty is already in process of overtaking many of the so-called followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and for the same reason...

Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piecemeal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self-deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.

In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakura Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by the deceptive by-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.