The spirit soul and the mind...

[Ananta Sesa]

Is it true that the spirit soul, atma, is only desiring and nothing more?

 

And that it is the mind which is perceiving (pains and pleasures) the world we live in, and not the spirit soul?

 

 

If it is the mind which is conscious about the pains and pleasures, and not the soul, does it then mean that it is actually the mind which is conscious, or?

 

But then what about the mind which is part of the 8 separate material energies?

 

 

Somebody who could clear this up for me?

[new---new]

 

Is it true that the spirit soul, atma, is only desiring and nothing more?

 

And that it is the mind which is perceiving (pains and pleasures) the world we live in, and not the spirit soul?

 

 

If it is the mind which is conscious about the pains and pleasures, and not the soul, does it then mean that it is actually the mind which is conscious, or?

 

But then what about the mind which is part of the 8 separate material energies?

 

 

Somebody who could clear this up for me?

 

yes mind only is conscious....... I am busy till tuesday 8th jan .....after that I can perhaps explain....

[Ananta Sesa]

 

yes mind only is conscious....... I am busy till tuesday 8th jan .....after that I can perhaps explain....

 

So we, spirit souls, atma, is not conscious?

[theist]

No that is not correct. It is mayavadi philosophy. Consciousness is a symptom of the spiritsoul. We are conscious of the conditon of our minds just like we are conscious of the conditions of our gross body.

 

Their idea of liberation is to go beyond the mind and extinquish consciousness. The vaisnavas teach us that this is suicide. Mayavadis have a death wish and consider death as life. We all have mayavadi tendencies because we identify with the material bodies subtle and gross and are suffering but impersonal liberation or merging into the brahmajyoti is not an acceptable solution any more than killing the body in order to cure a headach is.

 

Only the vaisnava knows what it really means to be alive.

[bhaktajan]

"Sub-consciouness"

--As per the modern psychiatry, does it exist? [Freud did, others did not]

--As per the Vedas, does it exist?

Are there any one who is learned regarding this?

[theist]

The unconscious or subconscious just refers to levels of the mind that we are not consciously aware of. Yes this exists. We are only conscious of the tip of iceberg when it comes to the mind.

 

The mind houses your past life experiences and memories in the same way it houses the impressions from your early childhood which you have consciously forgotten.

 

These impressions are called samskaras. If there was no continuity of the mind from one birth to another then we would all take birth with a blank slate but we see that doesn't happen.

 

When we leave this body it is the subtle body that we leave in and it is the nature of that subtle body that determines our next desitnation. The mind does not die when the body dies. Now picture how many births and deaths our minds have experienced and impressions and memories from all of them have left their mark.

 

This all makes up what we presently call the sub- conconsious.

 

Sub meaning below the surface.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Well said!!

 

I almost got kicked out of a college class for challenging Freud's notion that the split between the conscious, unconscious, and superconscious was permanent (if arbitrary). I cling to the belief that we can be one person, not three-in-one.

 

Sorry for the jackass comment on the other thread. Your heart is good (certainly better than mine).

 

 

The unconscious or subconscious just refers to levels of the mind that we are not consciously aware of. Yes this exists. We are only conscious of the tip of iceberg when it comes to the mind.

 

The mind houses your past life experiences and memories in the same way it houses the impressions from your early childhood which you have consciously forgotten.

 

These impressions are called samskaras. If there was no continuity of the mind from one birth to another then we would all take birth with a blank slate but we see that doesn't happen.

 

When we leave this body it is the subtle body that we leave in and it is the nature of that subtle body that determines our next desitnation. The mind does not die when the body dies. Now picture how many births and deaths our minds have experienced and impressions and memories from all of them have left their mark.

 

This all makes up what we presently call the sub- conconsious.

 

Sub meaning below the surface.

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by theist . . . The mind houses your past life experiences and memories . . . These impressions are called samskaras.[???] . . . When we leave this body it is the subtle body that we leave in [???] and it is the nature of that subtle body that determines our next desitnation. The mind does not die when the body dies.[???]

 

I inserted the "question marks" above into your excerpted posting.

 

The mind is material and thus dies with the body! the subtle body lives seperate from the gross body only in sudden seperation from the gross body [ghostly sphere] until one's past karma is exhausted [or until a Yamadhuta pulls you enroute to Yamaraj].

 

Please show textual references to explain Samskaras as impressions.

 

I feel that there is not sub-conscious --but, simply a multi-tasking capacity that may or may not be back-logged with "to do's" to do.

[theist]

 

I inserted the "question marks" above into your excerpted posting.

 

The mind is material and thus dies with the body! the subtle body lives seperate from the gross body only in sudden seperation from the gross body [ghostly sphere] until one's past karma is exhausted [or until a Yamadhuta pulls you enroute to Yamaraj].

 

Please show textual references to explain Samskaras as impressions.

 

I feel that there is not sub-conscious --but, simply a multi-tasking capacity that may or may not be back-logged with "to do's" to do.

 

 

"Mind dies with the body." I don't know where you got that. Go ask your guru to explain it to you.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

"Mind dies with the body." I don't know where you got that. Go ask your guru to explain it to you.

 

It's true that the mind is temporary, but it certainly *can* survive the body and accompany the soul to the next body. This is pretty basic reincarnation theory, which is evidenced by anecdotal evidence of children speaking languages to which they have never been exposed, recognizing places and objects from their previous lives, etc. It also can explain why people raised in almost identical environments can demonstrate such widely differing predelictions.

[bhaktajan]

Here are references that show the mind 'sets the criteria' for the next birth. But it does not survive the transistion.

SB 4.25.27 Purport: . . . The mind works under the intelligence, and under the mind are the ten senses, and under the ten senses are innumerable desires to be fulfilled. All these, however, depend on the vital life-force, . . . As long as the vital life-force is there, the mind works, and under the mind the senses work, and the senses give rise to so many material desires.

SB 4.29.61 Purport: . . . Although the root of distress and happiness is the mind, intelligence and ego, a gross body is still required as an instrument for enjoyment. The gross body may change, but the subtle body continues to act. Unless the living entity gets another gross body, he will have to continue in a subtle body, or a ghostly body. One becomes a ghost when the subtle body acts without the help of the instrumental gross body. . . . The gross body may lie on a bed and rest, and . . . go into a dream, and return to the gross body. When he returns to the body, he forgets his dream. Similarly, when the living entity takes on another gross body, he forgets the present gross body.

SB 4.29.62 Purport: . . . Narada Muni says in this verse that at death one takes his plans with him (grhniyat), and to execute these plans he gets another body. This is called punar bhavah. When the gross body is finished, the plans of the living entity are taken by the mind, and by the grace of the Lord, the living entity gets a chance to give these plans shape in the next life. This is known as the law of karma. As long as the mind is absorbed in the laws of karma, a certain type of body must be accepted in the next life.

. . . We have actually seen that when one man was about to die he requested his physician to give him a chance to live four more years so that he could finish his plans. This means that while dying he was thinking of his plans. After his body was destroyed, he doubtlessly carried his plans with him by means of the subtle body, composed of mind, intelligence and ego. Thus he would get another chance by the grace of the Supreme Lord, the Supersoul, who is always within the heart. . . . [bg. 15.15] In the next birth, one acquires remembrance from the Supersoul and begins to execute the plans begun in the previous life. . . . “The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone’s heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.” (Bg. 18.61) Situated on the vehicle given by material nature and reminded by the Supersoul within the heart, the living entity struggles all over the universe to fulfill his plans

SB 4.29.62 — O King, all good fortune unto you! The mind is the cause of the living entity’s attaining a certain type of body in accordance with his association with material nature. According to one’s mental composition, one can understand what the living entity was in his past life as well as what kind of body he will have in the future. Thus the mind indicates the past and future bodies.

PURPORT

The mind is the index of information about one’s past and future lives. . . . If a man is a devotee of the Lord, he cultivated devotional service in his previous life. Similarly, if one’s mind is criminal, he was criminal in his last life. In the same way, according to the mind, we can understand what will happen in a future life. . . .

SB 7.2.47 Purport: . . . The living entity is bound by the subtle body, consisting of the mind, intelligence and false ego. At the time of death, therefore, the position of the mind becomes the cause for the next body. . . . at the time of death the mind sets the criteria for the spirit soul’s being carried to another type of body.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

One becomes a ghost when the subtle body acts without the help of the instrumental gross body. . . .

 

 

The living entity is bound by the subtle body, consisting of the mind, intelligence and false ego.

 

On the contrary, you have helpfully found quotes which *confirm* that the mind (the subtle body) survives the death of the body. Thanks!!!

 

The "subtle body" is still material, it is not our "spiritual body".

[Beggar]

http://www.harekrishna.com/col/books/KR/cb/chapter5.html

Your Thoughts Create Your Next Body

That subtle forms exist in the ether has been proven by modern science by transmission of television, by which forms or photographs of one place are transmitted to another place by the action of the ethereal element. Within the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the potential basis of great scientific research work, for it explains how subtle forms are generated from the ethereal element, what their characteristics and actions are, and how the tangible elements, namely air, fire, water, and earth, are manifested from the subtle form. Mental activities, or psychological activities of thinking, feeling, and willing, are also activities on the platform of ethereal existence. The statement in Bhagavad-gita that the mental situation at the time of death is the basis of the next birth is also corroborated in many places in the Bhagavatam. Mental existence transforms into tangible form as soon as there is an opportunity.

Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.26.34)

Just a Few More Years!

Karma is the aggregate fruitive activities conducted to make this body comfortable or uncomfortable. We have actually seen that when one man was about to die he requested his physician to give him a chance to live four more years so that he could finish his plans. This means that while dying he was thinking of his plans. After his body was destroyed, he doubtlessly carried his plans with him by means of the subtle body, composed of mind, intelligence, and ego. Thus he would get another chance by the grace of the Supreme Lord, the Supersoul, who is always within the heart. In the next birth, one acquires remembrance from the Supersoul and begins to execute plans begun in the previous life. Situated on the vehicle given by material nature and reminded by the Supersoul within the heart, the living entity struggles all over the universe to fulfill his plans.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.29.62)

 

[bhaktajan]

One's next birth is determined at the moment of death by:

1) One's deeply engrained "desires"

2) What one is thinking of during one's last breath.

3) The culmination of all one's actions and work (Yamaraj sometimes attends to this).

The mind retains lingering desires that 'sets the criteria' (SB7.2.47) for the next birth.

 

So just as the body returns to ashes so does the mind.

The intelligence is far above the mind.

The mind is like a retarded person only able to choose their preference of enjoyment.

The material ego is further above the intelligence —and they are all vanquished at death.

You must likely conflating the nature of the mind with its cosmic source Mahatattva —[11.3.16P…From vaikarika, false ego in the mode of goodness, appears the eleventh sense, the mind, whose presiding Deity is Aniruddha].

One is conflating a living mind that doesn't die with statements that explain how the mind is a factor in the selection of one's future birth.

Karma is karma. The 'mind' is not 'karma' but they are connected through actions.

Great personalities [ie: King Bharata/jJada-Bharata] were all special circumstances.

For the common person, great dreams are not had by a 'mind from a last life' —their experience in the present life reflects past endeavors whose karmic reaction yielded a continuing path.

Einstein's dreams represented life times of analytic thought but his mind from his previous births are long gone during his famed life.

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BG 13.1-2 Purport . . . the body is called ksetra, or the field of activity for the conditioned soul.

Now, the person, who should not identify himself with the body, is called ksetra-jna, the knower of the field.

It is not very difficult to understand the difference between the field and its knower, the body and the knower of the body.

Any person can consider that from childhood to old age he undergoes so many changes of body and yet is still one person, remaining.

Thus there is a difference between the knower of the field of activities and the actual field of activities.

A living conditioned soul can thus understand that he is different from the body. . . . the knower is different from the body.

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BG 13.6-7 Purport . . .

First . . . earth, water, fire, air and ether. These are the five great elements (maha-bhuta).

Then . . . false ego, intelligence and the unmanifested stage of the three modes of nature. [pradhana]

Then . . . five senses for acquiring knowledge: the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and skin.

Then . . . five working senses: voice, legs, hands, anus and genitals.

Then . . . above the senses, there is the mind, which is within and which can be called the sense within.

Therefore, including the mind, there are eleven senses altogether.

Then . . . five objects of the senses: smell, taste, form, touch and sound.

Now the aggregate of these twenty-four elements is called the field of activity.

If one makes an analytical study of these twenty-four subjects, then he can very well understand the field of activity.

Then . . . desire, hatred, happiness and distress, . . . The living symptoms, represented by consciousness and conviction, are the manifestation of the subtle body—mind, ego and intelligence.

These subtle elements are included within the field of activities.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………

BG 13.8-12 Purport . . . The embodied soul is entrapped by the body, which is a casing made of the twenty-four elements, and the process of knowledge as described here is the means to get out of it. . . .

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SB 4.29.62 —The living entity labors under the bodily conception of “I am this, I am that. My duty is this, and therefore I shall do it.” These are all mental impressions, and all these activities are temporary; nonetheless, by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the living entity gets a chance to execute all his mental concoctions. Thus he gets another body.

SB 6.10.11 Purport . . . the material body made of eight elements—earth, water, fire, air, ether, false ego, mind and intelligence . . .

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SB 11.19.7 —My dear Uddhava, the material body and mind, composed of the three modes of material nature, attach themselves to you, but they are actually illusion, since they appear only at the present, having no original or ultimate existence. How is it possible, therefore, that the various stages of the body, namely birth, growth, reproduction, maintenance, dwindling and death, can have any relation to your eternal self? These phases relate only to the material body, which previously did not exist and ultimately will not exist. The body exists merely at the present moment.

SB 11.22.33 —When the three modes of nature are agitated, the resultant transformation appears as the element false ego in three phases—goodness, passion and ignorance. Generated from the mahat-tattva, which is itself produced from the unmanifest pradhAna, this false ego becomes the cause of all material illusion and duality.

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SB 11.22.39 —When the living entity passes from the present body to the next body, which is created by his own karma, he becomes absorbed in the pleasurable and painful sensations of the new body and completely forgets the experience of the previous body. This total forgetfulness of one’s previous material identity, which comes about for one reason or another, is called death.

. . . Death occurs when the specific karma allotted to a physical body is finished. Since that particular body’s karma is used up, it can no longer act upon one’s mind; in that way one forgets the previous body. The new body is created by nature so that one can experience the karma currently in effect.

 

 

Ys,

bhaktajan

[theist]

 

So just as the body returns to ashes so does the mind.

The intelligence is far above the mind.

The mind is like a retarded person only able to choose their preference of enjoyment.

The material ego is further above the intelligence —and they are all vanquished at death.

Please take this matter up with your guru. You are soooo far off base.

 

You say ahankara is vanquished at death along with the mind and intelligence. Do you know what that means. You are saying that at death all the soul's connection to matter is immediately vanquished which means that that soul must immediately become situated on the brahma-bhuta platform as an impersonalist because in that state he has not developed Suddha-bhakti so sayuja is the inly remaining choice.

 

A lot of inventive thinking on the board today.

[theist]

This question is more clearly understood when we learn the "material" mind is actually a projection or fume that comes off the self and what makes it "material" is the fact that it is not steadied on Krsna but is housing desires to enjoy apart from the Lord.

 

When one becomes Krsna conscious it is not a state of mindlessness, that is mayavad. It is a state mindfullness of Krsna.

 

The mind is not exactly a foriegn object that we eject as we become self-realized. It is a case of the mind becoming reintergrated into the soul proper from which it has it's source.

 

IMO of course.

[Beggar]

Again:

Just a Few More Years!

Karma is the aggregate fruitive activities conducted to make this body comfortable or uncomfortable. We have actually seen that when one man was about to die he requested his physician to give him a chance to live four more years so that he could finish his plans. This means that while dying he was thinking of his plans. After his body was destroyed, he doubtlessly carried his plans with him by means of the subtle body, composed of mind, intelligence, and ego. Thus he would get another chance by the grace of the Supreme Lord, the Supersoul, who is always within the heart. In the next birth, one acquires remembrance from the Supersoul and begins to execute plans begun in the previous life. Situated on the vehicle given by material nature and reminded by the Supersoul within the heart, the living entity struggles all over the universe to fulfill his plans.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.29.62)

Since when has this ever been a subject of debate?

 

[new---new]

 

So we, spirit souls, atma, is not conscious?

well let me put it this way .......the mind is the "conscious quality of the atma".......

 

 

for example heat and light are qualities of fire .......... when we say fire it automatically means fire has the qualities of heat and light ...........

 

in the same way when we say atma or soul ..it automatically means it has a mind ........for in the absence of mind there is no perciever ...and it would be impossible to speak of atma .......... can you think of any other quality of atma? besides its ablility to think???............

 

therefore it can be said tthat ultimately there is nothing to an atma besides the mind .....atleast in any " measurable terms ".....so this is as far as buddha went ............

 

however hindus ....and It was vivekananda in recent times .....who argued ...that just because what is beyond the mind is not measureable doesnt automatically mean that there is nothing beyond the mind .....and therefore the hindus propose the existance of brahman as the substratum ...the ONE SINGLE origin of alll the minds.......this brahman also equated with vishnu (which according to tatttva intrepretation is vishva + anu one that permeades every atom = space)........

 

 

now again the mind (as we understand in english)is further classified or rather qualified as

 

1)Ego= ahankara (self identifying thought of the mind)

2)buddhi = intellect ..(.discriminatory faculty of the mind=ultimately made up of thoughts only)

3)Manas = memory (store house of smaskaras,habits,i.e. memory... which is nothing but thoughts and impressions of previous experience as an individual...)

It needs to be NOTED that while originally the first thought of individuality was only a single thought "I" ...... it Become a very strong individuality because of ever expanding MANAS.. the storehouse of individual memory,samskaras and experiences........

 

 

the individual "SOULS" are the various many individual thoughts of "I" which arise in brahman ..and over a period of time become strongly individual because of an ever increasing "manas" the store house of past individual habits and experiences.........

 

 

I prefer not to speak any further on this topic atleast in this forum which is mainly vaishnava...........

 

the best thing to do is follow the rules ....and the guru ..... do the mantras ..and stick to sattvik diet........... following the rules will bring about experiences ...and the truth will reveal itself ........

 

why waste time on theory.........

 

Hare krishna is a powerful mahamantra ........and i have great respect for the the vaishnava path...........

 

hare krishna

 

PS ahankara(ego) buddhi(intellect) and manas(memory).... all survive the death of the gross body( gross body itself is a projected thought)...... though forgetfullness temporarily affects buddhi(intellect) and manas( memor) which is our original memory and which survives the physical destruction of brain..........................it can be revived in the next life by the means of sadhana and meditation...........

[theist]

 

I prefer not to speak any further on this topic atleast in this forum which is mainly vaishnava...........

You have given the advaita viewpoint and while this forum is mostly Vaisnava as you say, it is not forbidden to discuss from different angles though.

 

But i will respect your desire to leave it at that, understanding your reasons.

[mjan]

May i ask ---,

what do (how) advaitists talk with people?

if there is no I (false ego) from my side, only the source,

and if there is no I, you (false ego) from your side, only the source, then what?

silence?

[krishnadasa]

Mind thinks that you are this body and it doesnt know that it gets energy (consciousness) through the spirit soul, only until a Guru teaches and makes you realsies via proper intelligence that you are a soul and not this body ,, in this state you shall realise that the Soul is the real source and Mind is just a media...

 

Hari bol

 

 

 

Is it true that the spirit soul, atma, is only desiring and nothing more?

 

And that it is the mind which is perceiving (pains and pleasures) the world we live in, and not the spirit soul?

 

 

If it is the mind which is conscious about the pains and pleasures, and not the soul, does it then mean that it is actually the mind which is conscious, or?

 

But then what about the mind which is part of the 8 separate material energies?

 

 

Somebody who could clear this up for me?

[theist]

 

May i ask ---,

what do (how) advaitists talk with people?

if there is no I (false ego) from my side, only the source,

and if there is no I, you (false ego) from your side, only the source, then what?

silence?

 

Yes exactly. Advaita's preaching and teaching is a walking contradiction.

[new---new]

why bother with advaita......besides it is quite boring .....atleast i find it boring ........and besides i never claimed to be a follower of advaita......The difference between my beliefs and vaishnava beliefs is that vaishnavas belive that their philosophy is absolutely correct ..while i think it is "relatively" correct ...... but then the same applies to advaita and the buddhist philosophies which i believe are relatively correct ......

 

 

and why should anyone be surprised ...dont the vaishnava acharyas agree that the path of liberation for advaitans is a valid one ...though they believe that the path of personal bhakti is a superior one....... i too beleive that personal bhakti is superior to path of jnana ........

 

why dont you guys click on "---" and go through my other posts to understand what i believe in .......

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Yes exactly. Advaita's preaching and teaching is a walking contradiction.

 

So is achintya-bedAbedha.

 

The Gaudiya Vaishnavas aren't advaita, but they also aren't dvaita.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

If you can't summarize what you believe in a sentence or two, then you're probably hopelessly confused.

 

 

 

why bother with advaita......besides it is quite boring .....atleast i find it boring ........and besides i never claimed to be a follower of advaita......The difference between my beliefs and vaishnava beliefs is that vaishnavas belive that their philosophy is absolutely correct ..while i think it is "relatively" correct ...... but then the same applies to advaita and the buddhist philosophies which i believe are relatively correct ......

 

 

and why should anyone be surprised ...dont the vaishnava acharyas agree that the path of liberation for advaitans is a valid one ...though they believe that the path of personal bhakti is a superior one....... i too beleive that personal bhakti is superior to path of jnana ........

 

why dont you guys click on "---" and go through my other posts to understand what i believe in .......