No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

krsna · January 8, 2008

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

Jan 7, USA (SUN) — In the 'fall of the jiva' discussion, Deenanath dasa has asserted that "Prabhupada made apparently contradictory statements regarding the origin of the jiva". Such assertion that the statements of the great Acarya on this topic are somehow or other "contradictory" is quite thoughtless. At the very least, upon hearing apparently contradictory statements, we should intellectually step back and consider the possibility that the "contradiction" might be within our understanding, not the statements of Srila Prabhupada. However, few writers on this topic do so, and so it has become a common assertion that the statements of Srila Prabhupada on this topic actually are "contradictory". However those that have studied Srila Prabhupada over many years will know that his teachings are certainly characterized by a brilliant clarity, rather than any "apparent contradiction". In fact, an undoubted genius of Srila Prabhupada was his ability to present Vedic siddhanta with striking precision and lucidity. With this in mind, writers on this topic would do better to consider with humility that the source of the apparent contradiction is within their immature grasp of siddhanta rather than the statements of Srila Prabhupada.

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."
Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

Now is there anything clearer than the above? After reading the above, only a dumb fool or mischievous rascal will assert that the great acarya has not given a clear "conclusion" on the matter. Those who knowingly do not accept the above "conclusion" should not posture and parade themselves as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They are deviants from Srila Prabhupada's "conclusion". And it is their misinterpretation of certain particular statements of Srila Prabhupada that is the cause of any "apparent contradiction", not the original teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

These confused deviants have invented a phrase to serve their egoistic motives; this term is "Prabhupada siddhanta". Like the bogus Rtviks, they claim that because Srila Prabhupada is such a great acarya he can give a conclusion that is in opposition to the Vedas. These deviants are so stupid that they cannot see that this idea is not praise, but rather an insult to a great acarya. Great acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra. And to imply that Srila Prabhupada invented a new original "Prabhupada siddhanta" that differs from the Vedas is offensive and ridiculous. Moreover, in the light of the above quotation from his purport, it is groundless.

The Vedic conclusion is that no-one upon attaining the spiritual world will fall from that Supreme Eternal Abode:

"That which the Vedantists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns-that is My supreme abode."
Bhagavad-gita 8.21

Sri Krsna's above statement is one of a great many throughout the Vedas that consistently elucidate that no one falls from that Supreme Eternal Abode. The Vedanta-sutra of Veda-Vyasa even ends on this very point. [Kindly see Appendix One as below.]

Therefore, the intelligent faithful devotee will understand that there are no internal contradictions within Srila Prabhupada's teachings, and furthermore no contradiction between the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada and the Vedic conclusion. Of course.

However, for the thoughtful devotee upon reading the appendix below and the previous quotes, a question may arise: Srila Prabhupada certainly explains that the jiva "falls" into the grip of the material energy. Therefore, if he has not fallen from the spiritual world, then from where has he fallen?

For those who consider that there is only (1) the spiritual world; and (2) the material world, this question certainly creates a conundrum. With their poor fund of knowledge, they consider that the only place to fall into the material world is from the spiritual world. Thus they perceive a "contradiction". Actually, with this perception, the "contradiction" they perceive is not only in Srila Prabhupada's writing but also within the Vedas. To put it simply, the perceived contradiction is that if no one falls from the spiritual world, then how are souls falling into the material world?

The root of this perceived contradiction is the mistaken premise is that there is only (1) the spiritual world; and (2) the material world. This dual division is in fact a very immature and crude vision of the Lord's multifarious creation. The acaryas and the Vedas do not propound such a simplistic paradigm. In the Jaiva-dharma, Chapter Thirty-One, Srila Bhaktivinoda elucidates the actual divisions through which a devotee should view the Lord's creation:

"This is an extremely esoteric subject. You already know that Krsna's vibhuti, divine opulence, is divided into four parts. Three parts are displayed in the spiritual world and the remaining one part in the material world. This single part, the domain of the maya-sakti, manifests the entire material cosmos, consisting of the fourteen planetary systems. Between the material world, on one side, and the spiritual world, on the other, a mass of water churns known as the Viraja River. The cit-jagat, spiritual world, is surrounded on all sides by the brilliant peripheral zone known as Brahma-dhama, beyond which, in the paravyoma, spiritual sky, the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha are situated."

Srila Bhaktivinoda thus gives four distinct divisions of creation: (1) the material world; (2) the Viraja, the Casual Ocean; (3) Brahma-dhama, the abode of the brahmajyoti; (4) the Paravyoma, the spiritual sky, wherein the various abodes of the Lord are situated, which culminate in the Goloka planet.

No one, of course, falls from (1) the material world, for that is the already fallen condition. No one falls from (4) the spiritual world, the Paravyoma, for that is the abode of the Lord from where no one falls, as the Vedas and Srila Prabhupada inform above. This leaves (2) and (3). The errant souls fall into the material world from both these places. Having attained (3) Brahma-dhama through impersonal sadhana in the material world, or through being killed by the Lord, souls fall from this region of the brahmajyoti to the material world, for they lack devotion to the Lord. However, this is not their initial fall. The initial fall takes place from (2), the Casual Ocean.

In Jaiva-dharma, Chapter Fifteen, Srila Bhaktivinoda describes three points of origin for the jiva. The jivas manifest (1) from Balaram in Goloka; (2) from Ananta in Vaikuntha; and (3) from Maha-Visnu in the Casual Ocean [see Appendix 2]. Those emanated from Balarama and Ananta-Sesa within the Paravyoma, the spiritual world, never fall for they have "attained the abode of the Lord". However, those emanated by Maha-Visnu within the Casual Ocean are not within the planetary "abodes of the Lord". They are the tatastha-sakti-jivas, who are balanced between the material world and the higher spiritual region, which are on either side of the Casual Ocean. Amongst them, those jivas that choose service to the Lord go directly to the spiritual world and thus never fall. And those jivas that choose service to themselves in rebellion to the Lord's supremacy "fall" to the material world [see Appendix 3]. Thus the initial fall of the tatastha-sakti-jiva is from the Casual Ocean, wherein the tatastha-jiva manifests from Maha-Visnu as an individual soul situated within His brahman effulgence.

When the above paradigm of the creation is understood, then we can see that all Srila Prabhupada's statements concerning the "fall of the jiva" must be related to those jivas either within (2) the Casual Ocean, or (3) within Brahma-dhama, according to their particular context. If these "fall statements" are applied to the jivas within (4) the Paravyoma, the Abode of the Lord, then we will misunderstand and as a result perceive apparent contradictions within the teachings of the Vedas and Srila Prabhupada. A number of persons are obviously in this mistaken condition and are foolishly asserting that the contradictions are caused by Srila Prabhupada statements. Actually, their confusion is rooted in their immature realization based on a poor fund of knowledge. Instead of humbly accepting this lack of knowledge as the cause of the apparent contradiction, they foolishly challenge the authority of the Vedas by declaring that jivas are falling from the transcendental abode of the Lord and compound their misbehavior by then declaring that Srila Prabhupada's teachings are "apparently contradictory".

For the sake of brevity, we have tried to be as concise as possible in this essay. The following appendixes expand and support the matter. However those who are interested in contemplating this interesting point of siddhanta in even more depth are encouraged to read the Jaiva-dharma, particularly the Fifteenth Chapter. Srila Prabhupada recommends the Jaiva-dharma:

"So Bhaktivinoda Thakura happens to be acaryas, one of the acaryas. And he has left behind him many books. Caitanya-siksamrta, Jaiva Dharma. These are very important books."
Srila Prabhupada, London, 9.3.1971

Finally, one should note that those persons who do not accept the conclusions of the acaryas and the Vedas are known as pasandis, atheists. And thus their association should be avoided.

We hope this is found helpful, Your servant,

Balavidya dasa

<CENTER>Appendix 1

Vedanta-sutra, 4th Adhaya, Pada 4, Adhikarana 11

The Liberated Soul Never Returns</CENTER>

Introduction by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

Now will be explained the truth that the liberated soul has the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead eternally.

Visaya (the subject to be discussed): All scriptural statements describing the soul's entrance into the spiritual realm of the Supreme Lord are here the subject of discussion.

Samsaya (doubt): Does the liberated soul stay in the spiritual world eternally, or does he not stay there eternally?

Purvapaksa (the opponent speaks): The spiritual world is a place like Svargaloka or any other place. As one may fall down from Svargaloka, so one may also fall down from the spiritual world. Therefore the liberated soul does not necessarily stay in the spiritual world eternally.

Siddhanta (conclusion): In the following words the author of the sutras gives His conclusion.

Sutra 22

<CENTER>anavrttih sabdad anavrttih sabdat </CENTER>

an-without; avrttih-return; sabdat-because of the scriptures.

No return, because of the scriptures. No return, because of the scriptures.

Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

A devotee who faithfully worships and serves the Supreme Lord and then goes to the Lord's spiritual world, never returns. How is that known? The sutra explains, "sabdat" (because of the scriptures). In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.6) it is said:

<CENTER>etena pratipadyamana imam manavam avartam navartante </CENTER>

"They who enter the spiritual world never return to the world of men."

In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.1) it is said:

<CENTER>sa khalv eva vartayan yavad ayusam brahmalokam abhisampadyate. na ca punar avartate. </CENTER>

"Leaving this life, he enters the spiritual world. He never returns."

In the Bhagavad-gita (8.15 and 16) Lord Krsna declares:

<CENTER>mam upetya punar janma

duhkhalayam asasvatam

napnuvanti mahatmanah

samsiddhim paramam gatah </CENTER>

"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.*

<CENTER>a-brahma-bhuvanal lokah

punar avartino 'rjuna

mam upetya tu kaunteya

punar janma na vidyate </CENTER>

"From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again."*

In the Bhagavad-gita (8.15 and 16) Lord Krsna also declares:

Here someone may express the following fear: Lord Hari is all-powerful, the master of all, perhaps at some point in time He may throw the liberated soul out of the spiritual world. Or perhaps the liberated soul may at some time voluntarily leave the spiritual world.

There is no need to fear in this way, for Lord Krsna has explained in Bhagavad-gita (7.17):

<CENTER>priyo hi jnanino tv artham

aham sa ca mama priyah </CENTER>

"Of these, the wise one who is in full knowledge in union with Me through devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is very dear to Me."

Lord Krsna also declares in Srima-Bhagavatam (9.4.68):

<CENTER>sadhavo hrdayam mahyam

sadhunam hrdayam tv aham </CENTER>

"The pure devotee is always in the core of My heart, and I am always in the heart of the pure devotee. My devotees do not know anything else but Me, and I do not know anyone else but them."

In these words the mutual love of the Lord and His devotee is described.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (9.4.65) Lord Krsna declares:

<CENTER>ye daragara-putraptan

pranan vittam imam param

hitva mam saranam yatah

katham tams tyaktum utsahe </CENTER>

"Since pure devotees give up their homes, wives, children, relatives, riches, and even their lives simply to serve Me, without any material improvement in this life or in the next, how can I give up such devotees at any time?"

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.8.6) it is also said:

<CENTER>dhautatma purusah krsna-

pada-mulam na muncati

mukta-sarva-pariklesah

panthah sva-saranam yatha </CENTER>

"A pure devotee of the Lord whose heart has once been cleansed by the process of devotional service never relinquishes the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, for they fully satisfy him, as a traveler is satisfied at home after a troubled journey."

In this way the scriptures explain that the Supreme Personality of Godhead will never abandon His devotee and the devotee will always ardently love the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is always truthful and His desires are always at once fulfilled. He is an ocean of love for they who take shelter of Him. He washes away the ignorance that made His devotees turn from Him. Once He brings back to Himself His dear devotees, who are His parts and parcels, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will not again let them go.

In the same way the individual soul, who had been searching for happiness and who finally has turned from the pathetic, wretched, pale reflection of happiness he had for many births sought in the material world in many ways, and who now, by the mercy of the bona-fide spiritual master has understood the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, of whom he is a part and parcel, who now has no desire apart from the Supreme Lord, who is now purely engaged in devotional service to the Supreme Lord, and who has now attained the Supreme Lord, whose spiritual form is filled with limitless bliss, and who is the merciful friend and master, will never desire to leave such a Lord. In this way the truth is understood from the scriptures. This truth is understood only by taking shelter of the scriptures. The words of the sutra are repeated to indicate the conclusion of the book.

<CENTER>Appendix 2

Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 15</CENTER>

"As Sri Krsna, in Vraja, He brings into existence everything that is fully and wholly spiritual. In Vraja, expanded as Sri Balarama, He generates the nitya-siddha-parsada, the eternally liberated associates and servitors, who execute the eight types of devotional service to Him as Sri Krsna in Vraja. In Vaikuntha, Sri Balarama expands as Saìkarsana, Ananta Sesa, to generate the nitya-siddha-parsada of Sri Narayana who accomplish the eight kinds of service to Him as Sri Narayana in Vaikuntha. Sri Saìkarsana then further expands as Maha Visnu to preside over the maya-sakti. Maha Visnu generates the tatastha-sakti-jivas, borderline potency souls, who are susceptible to the influence of maya, and further expands accepting the form of Paramatma as the heart of the tatastha-sakti-jivas."

<CENTER>Appendix 3

Jaiva-dharma, Chapter Fifteen</CENTER>

In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 2.2.20, we find:

<CENTER>yathagneh ksudra visphuliìga vyuccaranti evam

evasmad atmanah sarvani bhutani vyuccaranti </CENTER>

"'Just as innumerable sparks cascade out of a flame, similarly, from Sri Krsna, who is the Atma, the Universal Soul, the jivas emanate who are His separated parts and parcels.'

"In another part of the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9, we find:

<CENTER>tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane bhavata

idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam

svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete

ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca </CENTER>

"'The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm. He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds. From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds.'

"Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva:

<CENTER>tad yatha maha matsya ubhe kule'

nusancarati purvam ca param caivam

evayam purusa etav ubhav antav

anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </CENTER>

"'The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly, the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."

Sarva gattah · January 8, 2008

Great acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra, indeed there is absolutely no contadiction in Prabhupada's teachings

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

It appears BALAVIDYA DASA does not fully comprehend what this actually means

Great acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that the jivas come under the influence of maya “only when they forget their natural function as Krsna’s servitors.” Srila Prabhupada says we have forgotten our relationship as Krsna’s eternal servants, Srimad-Bhagavatam says it, and now we find Bhaktivinoda Thakura saying the same thing. So guru, sastra, and sadhu are in agreement on this fundamental point.

Just as God has His Svarupa Vigraha, so Jiva has eternal chit Vigraha. That chit body is manifested in Vaikuntha. Being in material world, it is hidden under two coverings . . . . The conceit [the dictionary meaning of conceit is “thought”] of chit body of Jiva which was existent prior to its contact with matter is just and natural. But after the contact with matter, the conceit of self has become foreign and unjust. [Shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, pp. 156-157]

The jiva has chosen to forget that he is the eternal servitor of Krsna; for this fault Maya has tied him at the neck. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 44]

The reason of the jiva’s bondage is the forgetfulness of his essential svarup as servant of God. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 160]

“When he forgets Krsna he is averse to serve Krsna”

"The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krsna in their nitya-siddha origin thay never falls down from Vaikuntha. A nitya-baddha-jiva exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity. In other words when one chooses to forget Krsna, one is unwilling to serve Krsna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the the living entity to imagine, think or dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha. That secondary self is the nitya-baddha jiva condition that enters the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given material form (vessels) by Maha -Vishnu to live out their non Krishna conscious imagination"

Srila Prabhupada - "“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”

In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti.

According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance.

Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents.

In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva,

Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society:

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state (nitya-syddha) and the final state of liberation. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself (nitya-siddha). He creates a dream identity (nitya-baddha). And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position.

There are two states. The free state and the covered state. The free state is “with Krsna.” There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free state that is different from the final free state.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

Sarva gattah · January 8, 2008

Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

The idea that we were always conditioned (nitya-baddha) is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport.”

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure.

There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead.

This is the position. So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Here Srila Prabhupada directly compares the history of the souls in this material world with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. He speaks of “keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord.”

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease.

Here Srila Prabhupada directly rejects the idea that the conditioned soul was originally in the brahmajyoti. Srila Prabhupada then recommends that we not waste time with the question of our origin. But note that he first gave clear answers to the question. We should follow the same policy. Answer the question as above, and then suggest we not waste further time with it.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some panditas, big big learned scholars, saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila—both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead.

The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila?

The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

What about the statement “Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila—both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery.” Is Srila Prabhupada taking away everything he has said up to this point, and leaving the matter once more in confusion? Does he mean that we really could originally be from the brahmajyoti? No. This statement has to be considered in light of what has come before, in such a way that all the statements remain true. Srila Prabhupada has made two points absolutely clear.

First, the original position of the soul is with Krsna in His lila, or sport. Second, the souls are not originally from the brahmajyoti, but impersonalists in this material world, themselves fallen from their original position in Krsna’s pastimes, may enter and fall down from the brahmajyoti many times during the course of successive creations of the universe. Therefore, for any particular soul it may be said that we do not know if it is coming, during this particular creation, from Krsna’s eternal lila or from the brahmajyoti.

Taken in this way, all the statements remain true in a consistent way. Of course, we know from other statements by Srila Prabhupada, quoted elsewhere in this paper, that the jiva is not from the brahmajyoti and was originally with Krsna in His spiritual abode. At the very end, Srila Prabhupada puts things in clear perspective when he says that we are always part and parcel of Krsna, just as a finger is always part of the body although it may be diseased. So in the same way we are always in touch with Krsna, either in his eternal lila or his lila of manifesting this material creation.

mud · January 8, 2008

It appears BALAVIDYA DASA does not fully comprehend what this actually means

It appears this way to you in your dream.

When you wake up from your dream of thinking you have understood this philosophy, you will wake up to the eternal reality that you are conditioned in this material world and have been here anadi. Unfortunately the rest of us are here imprisoned in this particular jail cell with you, and this dreamy philosophy makes me oh so tired. Won't you give a guy a break? Get some sleep pal. yawn. zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz

Shakti-Fan · January 8, 2008

Our Relationship With Balarama

Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj,

OUR ROOT CAUSE IS BALADEVA
The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world. They have always served Radha and Krsna in madhurya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. From Baladeva comes Mula Sankarsana in Dvaraka. Asanka (innumerable) jivas come from Baladeva in His form as Mula Sankarsana, and they serve Dvarkadhisa and Mathuresa Krsna in so many ways. From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva.

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Sarva gattah · January 8, 2008

It appears this way to you in your dream.

When you wake up from your dream of thinking you have understood this philosophy, you will wake up to the eternal reality that you are conditioned in this material world and have been here anadi. Unfortunately the rest of us are here imprisoned in this particular jail cell with you, and this dreamy philosophy makes me oh so tired. Won't you give a guy a break? Get some sleep pal. yawn. zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz

Balavidya prabhu read carefully - Explained in all humility, this is what is going on in Krishna's creation-

"The perpetual nature of a Jiva is perpetually being the eternal active servant of Krsna as their nitya-siddha bodily origin that never falls down from Vaikuntha. The nitya-baddha-jiva however, exists simultaneously as a separate yet non-separated entity. In other words when one chooses to forget Krsna, one is unwilling to serve Krsna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self, therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the the living entity to imagine, think or dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha. That secondary self is the nitya-baddha jiva condition that enters the mahat-tattva of divided time and space, and given material form (vessels) by Maha -Vishnu to live out their non Krishna conscious imagination"

Srila Prabhupada - "“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”

indulekhadasi · January 8, 2008

Another fall of the jiva thread?

This is not exactly Krishna katha, although it may be a spiritual topic.

I hope I don't sound offensive but talking about this all the time is quite dry and boring.

Beggar · January 8, 2008

Reintarnation!!!!

$yosemite.gif$

Sarva gattah · January 8, 2008

Another fall of the jiva thread?
This is not exactly Krishna katha, although it may be a spiritual topic.

I hope I don't sound offensive but talking about this all the time is quite dry and boring.

Agree but don't blame me, I did not bring the subject up, I just believe it is nessessary to respond.

bhaktajan · January 8, 2008

As Posted by Mud

Quote:

<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.25in; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0.25in; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">It appears Balavidya dasa does not fully comprehend what this actually means

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>It appears this way to you in your dream.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Re: Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

Balavidya dasa has cut-off the quoted sloka just as Srila Prabhupada was completing his statement:

Balavidya dasa quoted Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26, thus:

" The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

The correct except [the above truncating may be the root of this perceived contradiction] is thus:

Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26:

. . . The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. . . .

Ys,

Bhaktajan

PS: Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami always counted the number of times

apparently contradictory statements;

immature grasp of siddhanta;

dumb fool;

mischievous rascal;

posture and parade themselves;

misinterpretation of certain particular statements of Srila Prabhupada;

confused deviants ;

These confused deviants have invented a phrase to serve their egoistic motives; this term is "Prabhupada siddhanta". Like the bogus Rtviks, they claim that because Srila Prabhupada is such a great acarya he can give a conclusion that is in opposition to the Vedas.;

These deviants are so stupid;

the intelligent faithful devotee will understand that there are no internal contradictions within Srila Prabhupada's teachings, and furthermore no contradiction between the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada and the Vedic conclusion. Of course.

suchandra · January 8, 2008

Another fall of the jiva thread?
This is not exactly Krishna katha, although it may be a spiritual topic.

I hope I don't sound offensive but talking about this all the time is quite dry and boring.

In this case it would be advisable to fully cast away the effects and to get release from the clutches of the material energy.

"TRANSLATION: You are the original Personality of Godhead who expands

Himself all over the creations and is transcendental to material

energy. You have cast away the effects of the material energy by dint

of Your spiritual potency. You are always situated in eternal bliss

and transcendental knowledge.

PURPORT

The Lord states in the Bhagavad-gita that one who surrenders unto

the lotus feet of the Lord can get release from the clutches of

nescience. Krsna is just like the sun, and maya or material existence

is just like darkness. Wherever there is the light of the sun,

darkness or ignorance at once vanishes. The best means to get out of

the world of ignorance is suggested here. The Lord is addressed herein

as the original Personality of Godhead. From Him all other

Personalities of Godhead expand. The all-pervasive Lord Visnu is Lord

Krsna's plenary portion or expansion. The Lord expands Himself in

innumerable forms of Godhead and living beings, along with His

different energies. But Sri Krsna is the original primeval Lord from

whom everything emanates. The all-pervasive feature of the Lord

experienced within the manifested world is also a partial

representation of the Lord. Paramatma, therefore, is included within

Him. He is the Absolute Personality of Godhead. He has nothing to do

with the actions and reactions of the material manifestation because

He is far above the material creation. Darkness is a perverse

representation of the sun, and therefore the existence of darkness

depends on the existence of the sun, but in the sun proper there is no

trace of darkness. As the sun is full of light only, similarly the

Absolute Personality of Godhead, beyond the material existence, is

full of bliss. He is not only full of bliss, but also full of

transcendental variegatedness. Transcendence is not at all static, but

full of dynamic variegatedness. He is distinct from the material

nature, which is complicated by the three modes of material nature. He

is parama, or the chief. Therefore He is absolute. He has manifold

energies, and through His diverse energies He creates, manifests,

maintains and destroys the material world. In His own abode, however,

everything is eternal and absolute. The world is not conducted by the

energies or powerful agents by themselves, but by the potent

all-powerful with all energies. ~ Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.7.23

Murali_Mohan_das · January 9, 2008

I'm truly laughing out loud!! Good one!!

Reintarnation!!!!

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krsna · January 9, 2008

Contradictory Statements on Fall of Jiva

BY: SHIVA DASA

Jan 8, MAUI, HAWAII (SUN) — Balavidya dasa has written what he considers to be the final word on the topic of the "Origin of The Jiva". He starts by first excoriating Deenanath dasa for this claim:

"It is a documented fact that Prabhupada made apparently contradictory statements regarding the origin of the jiva. Why he did so, only he knows. In such cases, it is not only prudent but essential to refer back to the statements of previous acaryas to resolve the issue. In terms of this issue, no other acaryas I am aware of have indicated that the origin of the jiva was in Krishna lila, other than those jivas who have been specifically deputed by Krishna for a specific purpose, as in the example of Jaya and Vijaya. Kailasa Candra prabhu's article documents that fact that there are no sastric verses to support the fall from Vaikuntha argument. Based on the sastric evidence and collated statements of various acaryas, one can conclude that his presentation is unbalanced and not a correct representation of the philosophy."

He then goes into a harangue about how there is really no contradiction in what Srila Prabhupada has spoken and written. Deenanath dasa was responding to Kailasa Candra dasa, who was making the case that the jiva was originally in Goloka or Vaikuntha. The first major problem is Balavidya's assertion that there are no contradictory statements by Srila Prabhupada on this topic. There are many quotes from Srila Prabhupada saying that the jiva was originally in Vaikuntha, there are also many quotes from Srila Prabhupada, other acaryas, and sastra which say that no one falls from the spiritual world. Clearly there are contradictory statements. But Balavidya dasa says those seeming contradictory statements are really not so. He then tries to prove his point. He says:

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26
Now is there anything clearer than the above? After reading the above, only a dumb fool or mischievous rascal will assert that the great acarya has not given a clear "conclusion" on the matter. Those who knowingly do not accept the above "conclusion" should not posture and parade themselves as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They are deviants from Srila Prabhupada's "conclusion". And it is their misinterpretation of certain particular statements of Srila Prabhupada that is the cause of any "apparent contradiction", not the original teachings of Srila Prabhupada. "

This kind of rhetoric gives us a taste of the dismal philosophical outlook to follow in Balavidya's thesis. He simply dismisses everyone as fake disciples, rascals, and dumb fools, if they do not accept the above statement from Srila Prabhupada as the sole final word on the matter. Well, what about the countless times Srila Prabhupada said that the jiva was originally in Vaikuntha? I guess that doesn't matter to Balavidya dasa. Nevertheless those statements are real and are not the product of stupid people's fantasies. Do we get some type of reason to consider that all of those statements by Srila Prabhupada which are contradictory to the above statement should be neglected? Or that they mean something other then what Srila Prabhupada said? In his own way I guess the next part of his thesis is Balavidya's attempt to reconcile the apparent contradictory claims on the origin of the jiva by Srila Prabhupada.

He takes to the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in order to prove his point, specifically Jaiva Dharma. First off I would like to know whose translation he is using. The translations available for free on the Internet (one by the Gaudiya Math and another by HH Narayana Maharaja) is not the translation he is using. Both of those translations are similar, but they differ a bit in the wording. The translation Balavidya dasa is using differs profoundly from those translations. In fact, the translation he is using is putting forth a philosophy which seems to me to be contradictory to basic Gaudiya tattva. For example he writes:

"In Jaiva-dharma, Chapter Fifteen, Srila Bhaktivinoda describes three points of origin for the jiva. The jivas manifest (1) from Balaram in Goloka; (2) from Ananta in Vaikuntha; and (3) from Maha-Visnu in the Casual Ocean [see Appendix 2]. Those emanated from Balarama and Ananta-Sesa within the Paravyoma, the spiritual world, never fall for they have "attained the abode of the Lord". However, those emanated by Maha-Visnu within the Casual Ocean are not within the planetary "abodes of the Lord". They are the tatastha-sakti-jivas, who are balanced between the material world and the higher spiritual region, which are on either side of the Casual Ocean. Amongst them, those jivas that choose service to the Lord go directly to the spiritual world and thus never fall. And those jivas that choose service to themselves in rebellion to the Lord's supremacy "fall" to the material world [see Appendix 3]. Thus the initial fall of the tatastha-sakti-jiva is from the Casual Ocean, wherein the tatastha-jiva manifests from Maha-Visnu as an individual soul situated within His brahman effulgence."

Here he is making a distinction between "tatastha-sakti-jivas" and other types of jivas. He asks us to refer to the following quote from the translation of the Jaiva Dharma he is using in order to validate his claim:

Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 15
"As Sri Krsna, in Vraja, He brings into existence everything that is fully and wholly spiritual. In Vraja, expanded as Sri Balarama, He generates the nitya-siddha-parsada, the eternally liberated associates and servitors, who execute the eight types of devotional service to Him as Sri Krsna in Vraja. In Vaikuntha, Sri Balarama expands as Saìkarsana, Ananta Sesa, to generate the nitya-siddha-parsada of Sri Narayana who accomplish the eight kinds of service to Him as Sri Narayana in Vaikuntha. Sri Saìkarsana then further expands as Maha Visnu to preside over the maya-sakti. Maha Visnu generates the tatastha-sakti-jivas, borderline potency souls, who are susceptible to the influence of maya, and further expands accepting the form of Paramatma as the heart of the tatastha-sakti-jivas."

In the 2 other translations of the Jaiva Dharma we get a completely different understanding. This is the Gaudiya Math version of the above:

"In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krishna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-shakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord's spiritual hladini-shakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya's three modes. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-shakti. They are not manifested by the cit-shakti."

And here is HH Narayana Maharaja's translation:

"In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupa as sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan's mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas."

Of the above 3, the first one of unknown origin presents obvious apasiddhanta, as will be shown. The other 2 have some difference between them, but neither makes the implication that the jivas in the spiritual world are not tatastha-sakti, and that tatastha-sakti refers solely to conditioned souls.

Let's examine Balavidya's version. The part I put in bold above reads:

"Maha Visnu generates the tatastha-sakti-jivas, borderline potency souls, who are susceptible to the influence of maya, and further expands accepting the form of Paramatma as the heart of the tatastha-sakti-jivas."

This idea being put forth is that there is something called "tatastha-sakti-jivas" who are a different type of jiva from other types of jivas. The problem with this siddhanta is that is is explicitly rejected within the Gaudiya tradition.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109:

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krsnera 'nitya-dasa' krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa' suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

SYNONYMS

jivera -- of the living entity; svarupa -- the constitutional position; haya -- is; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa -- eternal servant; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tatastha -- marginal; sakti -- potency; bheda-abheda -- one and different; prakasa -- manifestation; surya-amsa -- part and parcel of the sun; kirana -- a ray of sunshine; yaiche -- as; agni-jvala-caya -- molecular particle of fire; svabhavika -- naturally; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara -- three varieties; sakti -- energies; haya -- there are.

TRANSLATION

"It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

PURPORT
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna's marginal potency. There are two worlds -- the spiritual world and the material world -- and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire." Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96."

Here we are being told in no uncertain terms that the "constitutional position", the "svarupa" of the jiva, is tatastha-sakti. What is meant by "constitutional"? Since it is describing the jiva, it is being used as an adjective, which has the following meaning:

Forming an essential element, as arising from the basic structure of an individual, inherent, constituting or forming part of the essence of something.

The word "constitutional" is used as a translation of "svarupa" within the context of the verse. Usually svarupa is translated as "form' or "true self" or "identity" etc. The basic idea of the verse is in telling us that the jiva's true self or identity, or that which is inherent and essential to the jiva, is that the jiva is a servant of the Lord because the jiva is the tatastha-sakti of the Lord.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 2.96:

krsnera svarupa, ara sakti-traya-jnana yanra haya, tanra nahi krsnete ajnana

SYNONYMS

krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; sva-rupa -- the real nature; ara -- and; sakti-traya -- of the three energies; jnana -- knowledge; yanra -- whose; haya -- there is; tanra -- of him; nahi -- there is not; krsnete -- in Lord Krsna; ajnana -- ignorance.

TRANSLATION

"One who knows the real feature of Sri Krsna and His three different energies cannot remain ignorant about Him.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami states in his Bhagavat-sandarbha (16) that by His potencies, which act in natural sequences beyond the scope of the speculative human mind, the Supreme Transcendence, the summum bonum, eternally and simultaneously exists in four transcendental features: His personality, His impersonal effulgence, particles of His potency (the living beings), and the principal cause of all causes. The Supreme Whole is compared to the sun, which also exists in four features, namely the personality of the sun-god, the glare of his glowing sphere, the sun rays inside the sun planet, and the sun's reflections in many other objects. The ambition to corroborate the existence of the transcendental Absolute Truth by limited conjectural endeavors cannot be fulfilled, because He is beyond the scope of our limited speculative minds. In an honest search for truth, we must admit that His powers are inconceivable to our tiny brains. The exploration of space has demanded the work of the greatest scientists of the world, yet there are countless problems regarding even fundamental knowledge of the material creation that bewilder scientists who confront them. Such material knowledge is far removed from the spiritual nature, and therefore the acts and arrangements of the Absolute Truth are, beyond all doubts, inconceivable.

The primary potencies of the Absolute Truth are mentioned to be three: internal, external and marginal. By the acts of His internal potency, the Personality of Godhead in His original form exhibits the spiritual cosmic manifestations known as the Vaikunthalokas, which exist eternally, even after the destruction of the material cosmic manifestation. By His marginal potency the Lord expands Himself as living beings who are part of Him, just as the sun distributes its rays in all directions. By His external potency the Lord manifests the material creation, just as the sun with its rays creates fog. The material creation is but a perverse reflection of the eternal Vaikuntha nature.

These three energies of the Absolute Truth are also described in the Visnu Purana, where it is said that the living being is equal in quality to the internal potency, whereas the external potency is indirectly controlled by the chief cause of all causes. Maya, the illusory energy, misleads a living being as fog misleads a pedestrian by blocking off the light of the sun. Although the potency of maya is inferior in quality to the marginal potency, which consists of the living beings, who are part and parcel of the Lord, it nevertheless has the power to control the living beings, just as fog can block the actions of a certain portion of the sun's rays although it cannot cover the sun. The living beings covered by the illusory energy evolve in different species of life, with bodies ranging from that of an insignificant ant to that of Brahma, the constructor of the cosmos. The pradhana, the chief cause of all causes in the impersonal vision, is none other than the Supreme Lord, whom one can see face to face in the internal potency. He takes the material all-pervasive form by His inconceivable power. Although all three potencies -- namely internal, external and marginal -- are essentially one in the ultimate issue, they are different in action, like electric energy, which can produce both cold and heat under different conditions. The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa. One who is able to understand the intricacies of all these energies of the Supreme Lord can no longer remain an empiric impersonalist under the influence of a poor fund of knowledge."

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 2.101-104:

cic-chakti, svarupa-sakti, antaranga nama tahara vaibhava ananta vaikunthadi dhama

SYNONYMS

cit-sakti -- spiritual energy; svarupa-sakti -- personal energy; antah-anga -- internal; nama -- named; tahara -- of that; vaibhava -- manifestations; ananta -- unlimited; vaikuntha-adi -- Vaikuntha, etc.; dhama -- abodes.

TRANSLATION

"The cit-sakti, which is also called svarupa-sakti or antaranga-sakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia

maya-sakti, bahiranga, jagat-karana tahara vaibhava ananta brahmandera gana

SYNONYMS

maya-sakti -- the illusory energy; bahih-anga -- external; jagat-karana -- the cause of the universe; tahara -- of that; vaibhava -- manifestations; ananta -- unlimited; brahma-andera -- of universes; gana -- multitudes.

TRANSLATION

The external energy, called maya-sakti, is the cause of innumerable universes with varied material potencies.

jiva-sakti tatasthakhya, nahi yara anta mukhya tina sakti, tara vibheda ananta

SYNONYMS

jiva-sakti -- the energy of the living entity; tata-stha-akhya -- known as marginal; nahi -- there is not; yara -- of which; anta -- end; mukhya -- principal; tina -- three; sakti -- energies; tara -- of them; vibheda -- varieties; ananta -- unlimited.

TRANSLATION

The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

e-mata svarupa-gana, ara tina sakti sabhara asraya krsna, krsne sabhara sthiti

SYNONYMS

e-mata -- in this way; svarupa-gana -- personal forms; ara -- and; tina -- three; sakti -- energies; sabhara -- of the whole assembly; asraya -- the shelter; krsna -- Lord Krsna; krsne -- in Lord Krsna; sabhara -- of the whole assembly; sthiti -- the existence.

TRANSLATION
These are the principal manifestations and expansions of the Personality of Godhead and His three energies. They are all emanations from Sri Krsna, the Transcendence. They have their existence in Him."

The idea that tatastha-sakti only refers to a jiva in the material world is a concoction. All jivas are the tatastha-sakti of the Lord.

From Mahaprabhura Siksa: The Teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

Sri Jiva says:

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah tatra tasam varga-dvayam eko vargo' nadita

eva bhagavad-unmukhah anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paranmukhah svabhavatas tadiya-jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavat ca tatra prathamo' ntaranga- sakti vilasanu grhito nitya-bhagavat-parikara rupo garudadikah asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravesat aparam tu tat paranmukhatva- dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah samsari
"The number of jivas is unlimited. They are divided into two classes. One class is favorable to the Lord without beginning. The other class is averse to the Lord without beginning. The first class is favorable to the Lord because of knowledge of relationship with the Lord. The second class is averse to the Lord because of lack of that knowledge. The favorable jivas are all recipients of the Lords splendid internal energy. They are the eternal associates of the Lord, such as Garuda. They are not in the category of the Lord, as in shown by the scriptures. They are still tatastha or jiva. The second class of jivas is devoid of the help of the internal energy as they are averse to the Lord. Because of this lack, they are overwhelmed by maya and take repeated birth in the material world."

krsna · January 9, 2008

Here is what he is referring to in the writings of Sri Jiva Goswami from Paramatma Sandarbha:

evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante.

evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.

"In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord's separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). The Lord's personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord's lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo 'nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.

Thus the Lord's marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord's glories and the other group is not aware of them.

tatra prathamo 'ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.

tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord's potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.

The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord's internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:

"Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation."

Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord.

tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate

tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.

In this way we have described the Lord's marginal potency. we have already described the Lord's internal potency."

This is from the 14th chapter of the Jaiva Dharma version from the Gaudiya Math:

"Lord Krishna is the master of potencies in His perfect, original form. Srimati Radhika is the potency in its perfect, original form. Srimati Radhika is the original manifestation of the Lord's internal, spiritual potency. As musk is not different from its fragrance, and as fire is not different from its power to burn, so Radha and Krishna, who enjoy the nectar of transcendental pastimes together, are eternally different and not different from each other. From the internal potency, Sri Radha, are manifested the three potencies 'cit-shakti' (spirit), 'jiva-shakti' (the individual souls), and 'maya-shakti' (matter). These three are seen to be three different kinds of kriya-shakti (potency of action). The cit-shakti is also called 'antaranga-shakti', and the jiva shakti is also called 'tatastha-shakti'."

And this is the same from HH Narayana Maharaja:
- "As Sri Krsna is the complete saktiman-tattva, Srimati Radhika is His complete sakti. She can be called the complete svarupa-sakti. So that They can enact and relish Their lila, Srimati Radhika and Krsna are eternally separate, but They are also eternally inseparable, just as musk and its scent are mutually inseparable, and fire and its heat cannot be separate from each other. That svarupa-sakti, Srimati Radhika, has three kinds of potency of activity (kriya-sakti). They are known as: cit-sakti, jiva-sakti and maya-sakti. The cit-sakti is also called the internal potency (antaranga-sakti); maya-sakti is called the external potency (bahiranga-sakti); and the jiva-sakti is called the marginal potency (tatastha-sakti)."
So Balavidya Dasa presents a convoluted concoction as the basis for his thesis that there are no contradictions in what Srila Prabhupada wrote and said. He then tells us:
- "When the above paradigm of the creation is understood, then we can see that all Srila Prabhupada's statements concerning the "fall of the jiva" must be related to those jivas either within (2) the Casual Ocean, or (3) within Brahma-dhama, according to their particular context. If these "fall statements" are applied to the jivas within (4) the Paravyoma, the Abode of the Lord, then we will misunderstand and as a result perceive apparent contradictions within the teachings of the Vedas and Srila Prabhupada."
How does this from a letter to Jagadisa fit into the above scenario:
- "Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no 'new' soul. 'New' and 'old' are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul?"
Or this from a Bhagavad-Gita class:
- "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago... "
Or this letter:
- "We are all originally situated on the platform of Krsna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krsna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world or Maya. As soon as one chants the Hare Krsna Mantra with sincerity and without offense (you know there are ten kinds of offenses to the Holy Name which we are to avoid very, very carefully) his original Krsna consciousness is immediately revived. Krsna consciousness means to be always remembering Krsna in some way or other, just like we are immediately thinking of Krsna when we chant His Name, Krsna, and we are always thinking how we can do something nice to please Krsna with some service or other, or we are reading literature about Krsna or speaking about Krsna. In this way we are always remembering Krsna and that is our natural conscious state. So naturally everything about Krsna is originally known to us all and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His Holy Name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krsna in different ways."
Or this from Bhagavad-Gita class:
- "After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down."
I don't think that devotees who see a contradiction in what Srila Prabhupada wrote or said, or who believe that Srila Prabhupada taught that the jivas in the material world have fallen from lila pastimes, should be seen as rascals and fools. This topic of the origin of the jiva is not so easily understood. If you strongly believe that the jivas were all originally in lila pastimes, then everything Srila Prabhupada wrote on this topic, even if it is deeply metaphorical (which oftentimes it is) you will see there what you want to see. And the places where Srila Prabhupada was more straightforward and literal when claiming the jiva came from Vaikuntha, if you strongly disagree with that, then you will see what you want to see. From my perspective this whole controversy is Krsna's arrangement in order that devotees will study very deeply the philosophy so that they can become better educated and more deeply in tune with the teachings brought by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Whether or not we came from lila doesn't change anything about our present circumstances, but studying the controversy can. So there should be no animosity between Vaisnavas over this topic, it is really just a philosophical exercise, and shouldn't be taken or used as some political tool in some foolish ego driven agenda.

Shakti-Fan · January 9, 2008

Repeating post #5, not to beat everyone down with endless repetition but as a request for volunteers to try to explain the implications of this angle of vision, spoken the last paragraph which is italicized.

Our Relationship With Balarama
Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj,

OUR ROOT CAUSE IS BALADEVA

The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world. They have always served Radha and Krsna in madhurya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. From Baladeva comes Mula Sankarsana in Dvaraka. Asanka (innumerable) jivas come from Baladeva in His form as Mula Sankarsana, and they serve Dvarkadhisa and Mathuresa Krsna in so many ways. From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva.

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Sarva gattah · January 9, 2008

We are not these biological vessels nor are we the underlining ethereal body that houses the nitya baddha jiva, such containments belongs to the mahat-tattva that is ultimately created and facilitated by Maha-Vishnu.

Actually this material world and all the physical bodies in it (mahat-tattva) is the dream of Maha-Vishu, that we can choose to enter and take one of HIS bodily creations if we choose, simply by forgetting Krishna and who we really are as nitya-siddha-jiva outside of this temporary mahat-tattva creation.

The point is WE are NOT these biological vessels. We are not even, what many say, that is on the ‘other side’, meaning the ethereal bodies that can appear in a heavenly, hellish or ghostly material reality that is often referred to as sub-space and mistaken as spiritual.

Many religions and spiritual groups including the Buddhist 'heaven' is simply a higher sub-space aspect of the material creation or mahat-tattva. In other words, one is still contained in a material body which is ethereal on the heavenly planets however, like the rest of the mahat-tattva, that 'heavenly place' is also perishable.

Also it is important you know that the sub-space ethereal vessels (referred to as the subtle body) are ALSO a material reality yet, even though material, such bodies can NEVER be discovered by the grosser material secular biological reality of the mahat-tattva.

In other words, one CANNOT see or experience the sub-space ethereal aspect or dimension of the mahat-tattva by using secular space matter, which includes the biological bodily vessel. This means that sub-space can never be discovered by the electron microscope or the Hubble telescope.

And this is just explaining the perishable the material world that is a dark temporary cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

There are also two schools of Vaishnava thought that explain this -

1. 'In the spiritual perpetual world of Vaikuntha, no biological body or its underlining ethereal body does not exist, nor does even the nitya-baddha-jiva impure consciousness subsist that possesses those bodily vessels. This is because the nitya-baddha-jiva consciousness is the temporary imaginary non Krishna Conscious state of the marginal living entity, WHILE our real eternal bodily identity and self, always remains nitya siddha in the eternal ‘present’ beyond the ‘past, present and future’ of the material creation or mahat-tattva'

2. 'The devotees who believe we came from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti ALSO believe that our ultimate goal is to become an eternal servant of Krishna in either Goloka or Vaikuntha and ultimately see this material world, along with both the biological (earthly) and ethereal (that can be heavenly, hellish or ghostly) vessels, AS not the real identity of our full SPIRITUAL potential or individual identity'.

The full potential and constitution of the marginal living entity is an eternal servant of servant of the servant of beautiful Krishna, KRISHNA-BHAKTA.

Therefore ultimately we are eternal nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna and are not from or this material world (mahat-tattva), we are only visitors.

That devotional selfless body is NOT a container, vessel or vehicle, IT IS WHO WE REALLY ARE ETERNALLY AS KRISHNA’S SERVANT.

Quote:Shakti-Fan

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Great acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra, indeed there is absolutely no contadiction in Prabhupada's teachings

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

This is confirmed by Prabhupada as follows

Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state (nitya-siddha) and the final state of liberation. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself as nitya-siddha. He creates a dream identity (nitya-baddha). And when one wakes from that dream identity, one is once more in one's original position as one's eternal Krsna Conscious nitya siddha body that is always within the devotional realm of Vaikuntha established within the eternal 'present' of Krsna lila.

There are two states. The free state (nitya siddha) and the covered state (nitya baddha). The nitya siddha's are “with Krsna.” There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free state that is different from the final free state.

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Shakti-Fan · January 9, 2008

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

So what is generally given in the scriptures, the idea that the jivas manifest from Baladeva and His expansions like Maha Visnu is what is given for conditioned souls in this world "to convince ordinary jivas". "Whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way". But are we not realized souls, no matter where you believe that we are dreaming from, are we actually realizing our real spiritual existence? Remember, as stated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, real Krsna bhakti or Krsna Consciousness is not "empiric Knowledge". So basically we are discussing something of which we have no realization and sometimes not discussing but rather fighting. We need to really pursue our bhajan life and just know that when we actually attain the higher levels of Krsna Consciousness we will really "see" things the way they are. Then if we are in the position to "preach" we will do so without false-ego and ulterior motives actually becoming the well wisher of all conditioned souls. To imitate this is to invite disaster in our own bhajan.

gHari · January 9, 2008

In the 'fall of the jiva' discussion, Deenanath dasa that "Prabhupada made apparently contradictory statements regarding the origin of the jiva". Such assertion that the statements of the great Acarya on this topic are somehow or other "contradictory" is quite thoughtless. At the very least, upon hearing apparently contradictory statements, we should intellectually step back and consider the possibility that the "contradiction" might be within our understanding, not the statements of Srila Prabhupada. However, few writers on this topic do so, and so it has become a common assertion that the statements of Srila Prabhupada on this topic actually are "contradictory". However those that have studied Srila Prabhupada over many years will know that his teachings are certainly characterized by a brilliant clarity, rather than any "apparent contradiction". In fact, an undoubted genius of Srila Prabhupada was his ability to present Vedic siddhanta with striking precision and lucidity. With this in mind, writers on this topic would do better to consider with humility that the source of the apparent contradiction is within their immature grasp of siddhanta rather than the statements of Srila Prabhupada.

Arrogant or illterate - this rant lost me with this mickey mouse intro.

From http://education./reference/dictionary/entry/apparent;_ylt=Ai6r8gFr3JXdQ7RWuuzJeHGugMMF

ap·par·ent

(

-p

r

nt,

-pâr

-)

KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Readily seen; visible.
Readily understood; clear or obvious.
Appearing as such but not necessarily so; seeming:

an apparent advantage.

ETYMOLOGY:

Middle English, from Old French <tt>aparant</tt>, present participle of <tt>aparoir</tt>,

to appear

; see

appear

OTHER FORMS:

ap·par

ent·ly

(Adverb)

,

ap·par

ent·ness

(Noun)

SYNONYMS:

apparent

, clear

, clear-cut

, distinct

, evident

, manifest

, obvious

, patent

, plain

These adjectives mean readily seen, perceived, or understood:

angry for no apparent reason; a clear danger; clear-cut evidence of tampering; distinct fingerprints; evident hostility; manifest pleasure; obvious errors; patent advantages; making my meaning plain.

Usage Note:

Used before a noun,

apparent

means "seeming":

For all his apparent wealth, Pat had no money to pay the rent.

Used after a form of the verb

be,

however,

apparent

can mean either "seeming" (as in

His virtues are only apparent

) or "obvious" (as in

The effects of the drought are apparent to anyone who sees the parched fields

). One should take care that the intended meaning is clear from the context.

Beggar · January 9, 2008

So what is generally given in the scriptures, the idea that the jivas manifest from Baladeva and His expansions like Maha Visnu is what is given for conditioned souls in this world "to convince ordinary jivas". "Whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way". But are we not realized souls, no matter where you believe that we are dreaming from, are we actually realizing our real spiritual existence?

But we have been told that the material world is not false but temporary. The followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore reject the idea of brahma satya jagan mithya. Consequently we should conceive that our locus or position of dreaming is actually from within the material world. Although it is possible for us to intellectually accept the point of view of a self realized soul in the mood of Vraj (Goloka) we cannot imitate it, for do so would be to enter the realm of genuine Prakrta Sahajiyaism.

Vedesu · January 9, 2008

It appears this way to you in your dream.

When you wake up from your dream of thinking you have understood this philosophy, you will wake up to the eternal reality that you are conditioned in this material world and have been here anadi. Unfortunately the rest of us are here imprisoned in this particular jail cell with you, and this dreamy philosophy makes me oh so tired. Won't you give a guy a break? Get some sleep pal. yawn. zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz

Now that was funny!!!

Vedesu · January 9, 2008

And there you have it.

suchandra · January 9, 2008

Contradictory Statements on Fall of Jiva
BY: SHIVA DASA

Jan 8, MAUI, HAWAII (SUN) There are many quotes from Srila Prabhupada saying that the jiva was originally in Vaikuntha, there are also many quotes from Srila Prabhupada, other acaryas, and sastra which say that no one falls from the spiritual world. Clearly there are contradictory statements.

Why is Krishna blue? Clearly there are contradictory statements. But who cares, looks like people live quite happily with all these contradictions.

Kulapavana · January 9, 2008

The "river" Viraja which envelops the material quarter is usually understod as a stream of living entities, or in essence a particular region of Brahmajyoti. Just like Gulfstream is a particular region of the Atlantic Ocean. Thus a claim that we fell from Brahmajyoti is the same as the claim we fell from Viraja. At least that is how I understand this issue.

suchandra · January 9, 2008

The "river" Viraja which envelops the material quarter is usually understod as a stream of living entities, or in essence a particular region of Brahmajyoti. Just like Gulfstream is a particular region of the Atlantic Ocean. Thus a claim that we fell from Brahmajyoti is the same as the claim we fell from Viraja. At least that is how I understand this issue.

Looks the only result of this debate will be to make people in general 100% fully convinced that Vaishnavas are quite caught up and entangled in fog and mist when it comes to even the most simple questions, don't have the answers, are lost in speculations and should be sent home. Something like spaced out policemen.

Kulapavana · January 9, 2008

Looks the only result of this debate will be to make people in general 100% fully convinced that Vaishnavas are quite caught up and entangled in fog and mist when it comes to even the most simple questions, don't have the answers, are lost in speculations and should be sent home.

that is not my experience from talking to people. and besides, this is not a simple issue.

IMO insisting on using only dogmatic statements and pretending that there is no contradictions does a lot more damage than an open and honest debate.

and if there is an issue that seriously undermined our credibility, it is the guru issue and the nasty debates among devotees on this subject.

No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

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