No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[BhaktiK]

 

You misunderstand completely. Your impersonal understanding and interpretation of past Acharays is nonsense.

 

This is how Srila Prabhupada has described our 'fall down' from Goloka to us.

 

Srila Prabhupada says, (He rejects out-right Sridar Maharaj's idea that we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti), all living entities that have come to the material world, have all come down from Goloka some millions of years ago.

 

Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323- "It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God he begins to get back his pure essential nature"

Srila Prabhupada - “By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire.

Srila Prabhupada - However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life.

Srila Prabhupada - Milton in Paradise Lost nicely illustrates the living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krishnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility. . . However generally once one has experienced the misery of the material world, he keeps perfect intelligence to not misuse his free will again. It is these experienced souls who will never return or fall from Vaikuntha. Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Acyutananda: .....But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."

Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return.

Prabhupada: “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapura

Srila Prabhupada then cites the verse from Prema-Vivarta explaining the cause of the living beings original sub-conscious fall to the material world:

Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-Vivarta:

 

 

 

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

 

“We are eternal servant of Krishna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krishna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krishna—so Krishna has got full independence, but we are minute.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore, we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krishna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 Hyderabad, April 11, 1975

 

 

 

Prabhupada said, Prabhupada said, if you really knew what Prabhupada said then you wouldn't have caused all the havoc you caused when you did what you did at New Govardhana.

 

Nakula used to call you Gaura go perv. He had his ribs broken for saying what he knew as true, as you may remember....

 

That's my reply to you, Gauragopala.

[Sarva gattah]

An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his/hers individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of helping others become Krishna Conscious

 

The ultimate measure of a man/women is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he/she stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only Krishna Consciosness can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

We have come down from Goloka and can eventually go BACK home, back to Godhead (Goloka)

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha, our 'real unending' home

Srila Prabhupada - "Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state"

This nitya-baddha consciousness is due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation.

We therefore forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

 

We have all had millions of lives dreaming in the material world and have performed so many horrible and sinful acts other than this life.

 

Somehow we must humbly understand we are not this material body instead of wollowing in what has been done. We cannot change what we have done in the past but by the causeless mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya, WE can change the future so we can go back home, back to Godhead.

[BhaktiK]

 

We have all had millions of lives dreaming in the material world and have performed so many horrible and sinful acts other than this life.

 

 

The things youv'e done that are on your mind don't go away do they Gauragopala?

[Beggar]

Why did Srila Prabhupada use the phrase, "back to Godhead"? Why didn't he phrase it, "back to Goloka"? Why didn't he call his magazine, "Wake up Your Already in Goloka"? - Speaking of apparent contradictions, "back" to somewhere you really "are"? You philosophy is like a bad sequel to a great movie, like Back to the Future III!

[BhaktiK]

This man Gauragopala is never going to accept the truth. The sins he has committed are of such great magnitude that the Truth must remain hidden from him for lifetimes. Consequently he will stick with a mistaken concept of life like that other monster who attacks children named Putana

[Vedesu]

 

Srila Prabhupada says, (He rejects out-right Sridar Maharaj's idea that we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti), all living entities that have come to the material world, have all come down from Goloka some millions of years ago.

 

There he goes again, falsely attributing quotes to Srila Prabhupada which are nothing more than sg's own ill-conceived words. He's been called out on this dishonest tack more than once, but still he continues.

 

Apart from that, I have yet to find any quotes in Srila Prabhupada's books which claim that we fell from Goloka. The Spiritual Sky, yes. But not Goloka. And nowhere in Srila Prabhupada's books, lectures, letters are there any quote(s) where Srila Prabhupada states that he "rejects Srila Sridhar Maharaja's idea that we originate from the Brahmajyoti." Such cheating tactics may be effective in fooling naive cult-like followers who choose to believe Srila Prabhupada to be an Acarya who was independent of his Rupanuga Brahma-Madhva Gaudiya Vaishnava heritage who came to the West to teach something different from his predecessor Acaryas. Otherwise, such bhogus tactics are useless and nothing more than a disturbance to Lord Caitanya's Movement.

[Sarva gattah]

I think Gauragopala dasa has strong enough spiritual intelligence not to accept your bogus undertanding, by the blessing of his Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada.

 

Judging others by NONSENSE rumours and gossip and bitterness, just because someone does not accept Sridar Maharaj's idea that we come from the impersonal Brahman, is a very foolish hateful spiteful act.

 

Spreading nothing but 'blown out of proportion' lies and gossip will come back to haunt you and keep your mind always disturbed. What right have you to be judge and prosecutor based on innuendos and hearsay? You do not know what Krishna in the heart knows. Stop being so self rightious and judgemental

 

As one great saint said, "the one without sin, caste the first stone" and "hate the sin and not the sinner" - hating anything is dangerous

 

Keep hating, hating, hating, hating and you will come back in a similar body to the person you are disgusted with, just like the story of the brahmana & the prostitute - better to chant Hare Krishna and pray for sinners and saints and be a real devotee

 

Wake up to yourself BhaktiK and understand the causeless mercy of Lord Caitanya, it's the only hope for all of us in this sinful age of Kali yuga

 

 

Why did Srila Prabhupada use the phrase, "back to Godhead"?

 

Your post made me laugh. This part above simply means 'Back home with Krishna in the Vaikuntha planets serving His Vishnu-tattva form.

 

Or in Goloka-Vrndavana in a more intimate relationship with Krishna serving His original Shyamasundara form. Actually Back To Godhead MEANS back associating with Krishna personally in Goloka beyond the Vaikuntha planets.

[realist]

Stop being a snake in the grass BhaktiK, just because you can't defeat others, who ever they are, you go all snakey, we all see through imaturity. Try to keep to shastra

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by SHIVA

 

After reading the above, only a dumb fool or mischievous rascal will assert that the great acarya has not given a clear "conclusion" on the matter. Those who knowingly do not accept the above "conclusion" should not posture and parade themselves as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They are deviants from Srila Prabhupada's "conclusion". And it is their misinterpretation of certain particular statements of Srila Prabhupada that is the cause of any "apparent contradiction", not the original teachings of Srila Prabhupada. "

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

Now is there anything clearer than the above?

 

This kind of rhetoric gives us a taste of the dismal philosophical outlook to follow in Balavidya's thesis.

He simply dismisses everyone as fake disciples, rascals, and dumb fools, if they do not accept the above statement from Srila Prabhupada as the sole final word on the matter.

Well, what about the countless times Srila Prabhupada said that the jiva was originally in Vaikuntha?

I guess that doesn't matter to Balavidya dasa. Nevertheless those statements are real and are not the product of stupid people's fantasies. Do we get some type of reason to consider that all of those statements by Srila Prabhupada which are contradictory to the above statement should be neglected?

Or that they mean something other then what Srila Prabhupada said? In his own way I guess the next part of his thesis is Balavidya's attempt to reconcile the apparent contradictory claims on the origin of the jiva by Srila Prabhupada.

He takes to the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in order to prove his point, specifically Jaiva Dharma. First off I would like to know whose translation he is using. The translations available for free on the Internet (one by the Gaudiya Math and another by HH Narayana Maharaja) is not the translation he is using.

 

Both of those translations are similar, but they differ a bit in the wording. The translation Balavidya dasa is using differs profoundly from those translations. In fact, the translation he is using is putting forth a philosophy which seems to me to be contradictory to basic Gaudiya tattva.

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[BhaktiK]

Realist is Sarva gatah is Gauragopala

[BhaktiK]

Sarva gatah is the person who never answers facts with reasonable replies.

 

Look at the top of this page where Beggar wrote:

 

 

 

Can you prove this from quotes from sastra?

 

Look at the statements of Sri Chaitanya that I posted. Mahaprabhu told Sanatan Goswami that souls come from Brahman and go to Goloka. And then this criminal Gauragopal (sarva) abuses Srila Sridhara Maharaja for saying the same thing that Mahaprabhu said.

 

Like it says in the post from Caitanya Caritamrta on the previous page, people who oppose the teachings of Mahaprabhu but worship Krishna will get born again and again (bahu janma -- in Bengali). The FALL FROM GOLOKA people are of this category. They are presenting a philosophy different from what Mahaprabhu taught. They can do that of course, and people who have bad karma will listen and think that Krishna doesn't really protect his devotees. All this can happen. After all, this is Kali yuga.

[Vedesu]

 

Realist is Sarva gatah is Gauragopala

 

And Svarupa and Acutyananda and Bhakta Rod.... the list goes on. Oh wait!

There's 6 or 7 of them all sharing the same computer. Never mind then. My bad.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Swami B.V. Tripurari,"The partial expression of the svarupa sakti that the jiva is constituted of is insufficient to afford it standing in the lila of Bhagavan in and of itself." So this is a prime difference between how a baddha jiva and a jivan mukta in the spiritual world are "constituted".

 

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) as well as the impersonal Brahmajyoti from where some wrongly say we originate from as a plain sheet of consciousness.

The description of sparks in the effulgence or, a particle of living so called atom in a ray of individual dormant light particles, as one advanced humble Vaishnava puts it, is ONLY correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. This is because the living entity only 'sub-consciously' leaves Goloka in a 'dream-like' consciousness that IS the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entities identity.

 

This baddha-jiva dream state consciousness enters the mahat-tattva and is given foen by Maha-Vishnu. After many millions and millions of birtha throughout the three worlds of material existence, the baddha-jiva becomes fed up with the temporary nature of the material creation and takes refuge in the 'inactive dreamless' impersonal Btahmajyoti. And stays there until the next maha-tattva creation manifests.

 

In this way Sridar maharaj maybe refering to the baddha-jiva that is the 'dark side' of our marginal identity. The light side' of our maginal identity is eternally nitya-siddha and that is our perpetual 'svarupa' bodily identity that can never fall down from Goloka. It is something to be regained Prabhupada has told us.

The vast majority of creation is Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana where all living entities are aware of their nitya-siddha perpetual status.

 

On the other hand, those who choose not to be nitya siddha, which means being fully aware that they are Krishna’s eternal servants, ONLY 'consciously' leave Goloka, not as their nitya-siddha body, but as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the DREAMING mahat-tattva creation relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu.

 

Or can eventually EVEN EVENTUALLY after passing through the mahat-tattva, merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, which is true but only after we have ’sub-consciously’ come down from Goloka as our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming sub-conscious thoughts.

Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God’s creation is the three-fourths manifestation . . . This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions.

In the Sankhya-kaumudi it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . .

There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

[Beggar]

 

from where some wrongly say we originate from as a plain sheet of consciousness.

From where does the "plain sheet of consciousness" originate? Hint: sarva karna karanam.

[BhaktiK]

 

The description of sparks in the effulgence or, a particle of living so called atom in a ray of individual dormant light particles, as one advances Vaishnava puts it, is ONLY correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness

 

The Brahman effulgence is non-different from Bhagavan. It is a part of his Being.

 

Where in the scriptures does it say that Brahman is nitya-baddha?

 

Your ideas are totally idiotic. Krishna says in the Gita:

 

 

bhagavad GITA, Chapter 14.

 

TEXT 27

 

brahmano hi pratisthaham

amrtasyavyayasya ca

sasvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikantikasya ca

 

TRANSLATION

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.

 

PURPORT

The constitution of Brahman is immortality, imperishability, eternity, and happiness. Brahman is the beginning of transcendental realization. Paramatma, the Supersoul, is the middle, the second stage in transcendental realization, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate realization of the Absolute Truth. Therefore, both Paramatma and the impersonal Brahman are within the Supreme Person.

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Dear prabhus,

 

I hope you don’t mind this interjection here. As of yet there seems to be no finality to the ongoing discussion. Numerous quotes and verses have been used to bolster each presentation.

 

The ‘dream’ interpretation’ is disputed in a finely balanced way between it being real, or real but false and so on. No one will yield if they have sastra on their side.

Without resorting to sastric quotes, my understanding of the dream phenomenon can be put in a nutshell. It may be subject to wise scrutiny and I certainly do not claim to give a final say on the matter, lest I be a bold, brash know-it-all.

When Sri Maha-Vishnu goes into yoga-nidra, this act of sleeping His mystic slumber is real - for anything the Lord does is reality. Within this mystic dream, we the minute living entities are in fact participating in it.

 

How we choose to misuse our God-given independence determines whether we stay or leave this realm. Is it real? If it emanates from the Lord, the answer is yes.

Latching on to the false side of the argument as strenuously as has been presented does have some merit, but is not a substantial way of deducing reality from illusion.

 

In reality there is no outright illusion except the time factor - kala - that gives experiences of beginning and end, which is the main provider of the real but false logic.

When the worlds are created, that is reality. When they are annihilated that is reality. When the jiva souls are taken into the body of Maha-Vishnu that is reality. So why should Maha-Vishnu’s dream world be any less real?

As for whether the marginal living entities remain on the borderline or not, even when going back to Godhead, I heard a very nice answer given by HH Tamal Krishna Maharaja who inquired from Srila Prabhupada on the matter.

 

He said that Srila Prabhupada told him about a million dollars. One person may inherit the million dollars. Another person may earn a million dollars. Yet a benefactor may simply give another person a million dollars.

These three equate to the following: the inheritor of a million dollars is the nitya-siddha - he never falls from grace. The one who works and earns a million dollars is the sadhaka-siddhi.

 

The one who is given the million dollars is the krpa-siddhi. In all three cases they become or are millionaires. In the same way, the three spiritual perfectionists attain nitya-siddha status. According to this answer, the marginal living entity attains the same perfection.

I am not sure if I am somewhat off course here. The lecture is somewhere in my hard drive - I think. Otherwise I am sure someone will know of this example. So please do not interrogate me about hard facts and so on.

It is good to familiarize ourselves with these topics, but I feel again, that the going back and forth over the issue of reality, versus true but false, appears more a matter of semantics.

 

 

by Kesava Krsna dasa.

 

 

Kesava Krsna dasa writes - “When Sri Maha-Vishnu goes into yoga-nidra, this act of sleeping His mystic slumber is real - for anything the Lord does is reality. Within this mystic dream, we the minute living entities are in fact participating in it. How we choose to misuse our God-given independence determines whether we stay or leave this realm. Is it real? If it emanates from the Lord, the answer is yes”.

comment - 'The concept of ‘dreaming’ in the material sense has to be correctly understood as you have clearly explained. The word ‘material dream’ simply means mistaken ‘desires’ and ‘thoughts’ that are impermanent and outside the kingdom of a perpetual reality that is imperishable and never decays. It is that ‘eternal’ place of Goloka and Vaikuntha that all the marginal living entities are perpetually founded in their eternally spiritual body or svarupa.

Don’t identify the word ‘dream as explained by Prabhupada in relation to our existence in the material creation,’ with the dreaming of the biological body, for those dreams ARE illusion. On the other hand, the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity, or jiva-tatastha, are very real but are temporary, that’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming.

They are simply our non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are excluded from Goloka and can only find expression within the yoga-nidra dreams of Maha-Vishnu. It is there such desires, thoughts or dreams are given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies) that are the ornaments and decorations of the mahat-tattva.

These vessels not only belong to the mahat-tattva, but ARE the mahat-tattva, sometimes called mother nature, that the jiva-tatastha possess with their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness.

In this way, just like darkness appears when the sun is no longer visible, the nitya-baddha consciousness appears when one miss uses their free will to choose to ignore Krishna and their nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, which is their full potential. Nitya-baddha therefore is the secondary consciousness where one can experience their self centered mistaken dreams.

The reason the word ‘dream’ is used is because Prabhupada explains that Maha-Vishnu in His yoga-nidra state, is in a trance or dream, and that dream is the mahat-tattva or material universe.

Yoga nidra literally means ‘sleep’

 

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva.

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together.

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means ‘inconceivable’, bheda translates to ‘difference’, and abheda translates to ‘one-ness’.

The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some sects believe. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha.

Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time’ to ‘time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and ‘rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness

When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains -

“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”.

Chapter 3. Karma-yoga

text 27

“The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport.

Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

[Sarva gattah]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

There is only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

 

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Some jivas are eternally liberated, but they are still jivas. They may not at any time become shakti tattva any more than they may become Vishnu tattva. They are jiva tattva or “tatastha sakti” by their very nature.

Sakti-Tattva is not a category of living entity like tatastha-sakti or Visnu-tattva. In gaudiya vaisnavism it is a term which refers to the sakti principle. Jivas are part of the sakti principle, therefore jivas are sakti-tattva.

But Advaita Acarya is isvara-tattva. He’s not sakti-tattva. He’s isvara-tattva. And we are all sakti-tattva; therefore there is difference. Sakti-saktiman. Although there is no difference abhinna, but still, sakti-tattva is superior, er, saktiman tattva is superior than sakti-tattva. (ACBS Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.12 — Mayapur, April 5, 1975)

So jiva-bhuta, we jivas, we are all prakrti. Purusa is only Krsna. All living entities… Visnu-tattva is purusa-tattva, and we are sakti-tattva, sakti, energy, marginal energy of Krsna. So energy is prakrti. The prakrti is not purusa. (ACBS Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 1.13-14 — London, July 14, 1973)

The idea of sakti-tattva is that whatever belongs in the sakti category can be called sakti-tattva. I have seen where some people claim that sakti-tattva refers solely to Sri Radha’s personal expansions or to expansions of the swarupa or cit-sakti.

In that conception they teach the idea that there is a type of living entity which can be called sakti-tattva in the same sense that jiva’s are called tatastha-sakti and Bhagavan is called Visnu-tattva or Isvara-Tattva.

They have created a third type of living entity besides God and the jiva with that type of philosophy. In reality there are only two types of living entities. There is God and there is the jiva. Jiva Goswami makes thise clear in Krsna Sandarbha Anuccheda 27

TEXT 17

This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:

” The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.

TEXT 18

” There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them.”

And also in the Caitanya Caritamrta Mahaprabhu says:

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.8-9

 

 

 

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara

 

ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

 

 

 

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

 

 

 

svamsa-vistara — catur-vyuha, avatara-gana

 

vibhinnamsa jiva — tanra saktite ganana

 

 

 

Expansions of His personal self — like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva — descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities. Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies.

PURPORT

The personal expansions are known as visnu-tattva, and the separated expansions are known as jiva-tattva. Although the jivas (living entities) are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are still counted among His multipotencies.

 

 

 

So there are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva.

 

 

The people who claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva usually claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva.

 

The fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva. Because sakti-tattva refers to the general principle of being a sakti of the Lord, and not to a specific type of living entity, therefore they are both. Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

From Srimad Bhagavatam 6.19.13

 

 

 

guna-vyaktir iyam devi

 

vyanjako guna-bhug bhavan

tvam hi sarva-sariry atma

srih sarirendriyasayah

nama-rupe bhagavati

pratyayas tvam apasrayah

 

 

 

Mother Lakshmi, who is here, is the reservoir of all spiritual qualities, whereas You manifest and enjoy all these qualities. Indeed, You are actually the enjoyer of everything. You live as the Supersoul of all living entities, and the goddess of fortune is the form of their bodies, senses and minds. She also has a holy name and form, whereas You are the support of all such names and forms and the cause for their manifestation.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

Madhvacarya, the acarya of the Tattvavadis, has described this verse in the following way: “Vishnu is described as yajna personified, and mother Lakshmi is described as spiritual activities and the original form of worship.

 

In fact, they represent spiritual activities and the Supersoul of all yajna. Lord Vishnu is the Supersoul even of Lakshmidevi, but no one can be the Supersoul of Lord Vishnu, for Lord Vishnu Himself is the spiritual Supersoul of everyone.”

According to Madhvacarya, there are two tattvas, or factors. One is independent, and the other is dependent. The first tattva is the Supreme Lord, Vishnu, and the second is the jiva-tattva. Lakshmidevi, being dependent on Lord Vishnu, is sometimes counted among the jivas. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas, however, describe Lakshmidevi in accordance with the following two verses from the Prameya-ratnavali of Baladeva Vidyabhushana. The first verse is a quotation from the Vishnu Purana.

 

 

 

nityaiva sa jagan-mata

 

vishnoh srir anapayini

yatha sarva-gato vishnus

tathaiveyam dvijottama

vishnoh syuh saktayas tisras

tasu ya kirtita para

saiva sris tad-abhinneti

praha sishyan prabhur mahan

 

 

 

“O best of the brahmanas, Lakshmiji is the constant companion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, and therefore she is called anapayini. She is the mother of all creation. As Lord Vishnu is all-pervading, His spiritual potency, mother Lakshmi, is also all-pervading.” Lord Vishnu has three principal potencies — internal, external and marginal. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has accepted para-sakti, the spiritual energy of the Lord, as being identical with the Lord. Thus she is also included in the independent vishnu-tattva.”

In the Kanti-mala commentary on the Prameya-ratnavali there is this statement:

nanu kvacit nitya-mukta jivatvam lakshmyah svikritam, tatraha — praheti. nityaiveti padye sarva-vyapti-kathanena kalakashthety adi-padya-dvaye, suddho ‘pity ukta ca mahaprabhuna svasishyan prati lakshmya bhagavad-advaitam upadishtam. kvacid yat tasyas tu dvaitam uktam, tat tu tad-avishta-nitya-mukta jivam adaya sangatamas tu.

“Although some authoritative Vaishnava disciplic successions count the goddess of fortune among the ever-liberated living entities (jivas) in Vaikuntha, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in accordance with the statement in the Vishnu Purana, has described Lakshmi as being identical with the vishnu-tattva.

The correct conclusion is that the descriptions of Lakshmi as being different from Vishnu are stated when an eternally liberated living entity is imbued with the quality of Lakshmi; they do not pertain to mother Lakshmi, the eternal consort of Lord Vishnu.”

In his his Govinda Bhasya commentary on the Vedanta Sutra, Baladeva Vidhyabhusana adds some more to this:

The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

The Lord’s forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

“Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.”

To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted. As Lord Visnu has limitless transcendental qualities, so does Goddess Laksmi. In the scriptures it is said:

“O Goddess, even if we had tongues like the demigod Brahma, we still could not describe all Your transcendental qualities. O Lotus-eyed Goddess Laksmi, please do not ever abandon your devotees.”

When Lord Visnu assumes different forms, Goddess Laksmi also assumes different forms and follows Him. In the scriptures it is said:

“When Lord Visnu assumes the form of a demigod, Goddess Laksmi assumes the form of a demigoddess. When He assumes the form of a human man, she assumes the form of a human woman. In this way she assumes a form to match the form of Lord Visnu.”

Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi. Sri Krsna is the origin of all the forms of Lord Visnu. In the Purusa-bodhini Upanisad it is said:

“In the land of Gokula in Mathura-mandala, Lord Krsna resides. At His two sides are Radha and Candravali.”

There it is also said:

“Laksmi, Durga, and the Lord’s potencies are expansions of Sri Radha.”

So the plenary expansions of Sri Radha do not belong to a third category of living entity called sakti-tattva. They are sakti-tattva but that refers to the principle of their being the hladini-sakti and the swarupa-sakti of the Lord, which are identical to the Lord.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in his Sri Tattva Sutra:

In Visnu Purana (1.22.53) it is said:

“Just as the illumination of a fire, which is situated in one place, is spread over, the energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Parabrahman, are spread all over the universe.”*

In the Markandeya Purana, Devi-mahatmya, the sage explains:

“O king, now I will describe to you the glories of the goddess. By her power she sustains the entire world.

“She is the potency of Lord Visnu. From her comes transcendental knowledge. You and many others have attained transcendental knowledge by her grace.”

In the Narada-pancaratra, Second Night, Third Chapter, Lord Siva explains:

“The Supreme Lord is one. Still, He is manifested in two forms. One form is female: the potency of Lord Visnu. The other form is male: Lord Visnu.”

From the intro to Srila Prabhupada’s Teachings of Lord Caitanya:

Radha and Krsna are one, and when Krsna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krsna (Radha’s display).

Although we speak of “when” Krsna desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditional life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in the absolute or spiritual life there is neither beginning nor end.

Yet in order to understand that Radha and Krsna are one and that they also become divided, the question “When?” automatically comes to mind. When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested himself in the separate form of Radharani.

From Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi Lila

CC Adi 4.72: “I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency [hladini]. Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa.”

CC Adi 4.73: Now please listen to how Lord Krsna’s consorts help Him taste rasa and how they help in His pastimes.

CC Adi 4.74-75: The beloved consorts of Lord Krsna are of three kinds: the goddesses of fortune, the queens, and the milkmaids of Vraja, who are the foremost of all. These consorts all proceed from Radhika.

CC Adi 4.76: Just as the fountainhead, Lord Krsna, is the cause of all incarnations, so Sri Radha is the cause of all these consorts.

CC Adi 4.77: The goddesses of fortune are partial manifestations of Srimati Radhika, and the queens are reflections of Her image.

CC Adi 4.78: The goddesses of fortune are Her plenary portions, and they display the forms of vaibhava-vilasa. The queens are of the nature of Her vaibhava-prakasa.

CC Adi 4.79: The Vraja-devis have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

CC Adi 4.80: Without many consorts, there is not such exultation in rasa. Therefore there are many manifestations of Srimati Radharani to assist in the Lord’s pastimes.

CC Adi 4.81: Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas.

Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions.

All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna’s pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

The plenary expansions of Krsna’s personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha’s expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilasa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakasa forms.

The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety.

The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Radharani, who are also known as gopis or sakhis. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Sri Krsna, and therefore these expansions from Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krsna.

Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vrndavana. By these expansions of Srimati Radharani’s personal body, She helps Lord Krsna taste the rasa dance and other, similar activities. Srimati Radharani, being the central petal of the rasa-lila flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

Thanks to Shiva prabhu for all this research

[BhaktiK]

The antaranga-shakti is different from the jiva-shakti

 

This is what Mahaprabhu taught.

 

 

krsnera svarupa ara sakti traya jnana

yanra haya, tanra nahi krsnete ajnana

cic-chakti svarupa-sakti antaranga-nama

tahara vaibhava ananta vaikunthadi dhama

maya sakti bahiranga jagat-karana

yahara vaibhava ananta brahmandera gana

jiva sakti tatasthakya nahi yara anta

mukhya tina sakti tara vibheda ananta

ei ta' svarupa gana ara tina sakti

sabara asraya krsna, krsne sabara sthiti


 

One who knows the real feature of Sri Krsna and His three different energies cannot remain ignorant about Him. The cit sakti, which is also called svarupa sakti or antaranga sakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia. The external energy, called maya sakti, is the cause of innumerable universes with varied material potencies. The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

 

C.C.Adi. 2.96, 101-104

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Wow! It's a good thing I've been avoiding this particular thread. Even *I* don't have the stomach for all this.

 

Gaura Hari!!

 

Keep up the good fight, BhaktiK, Beggar, et. al.!!!!

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah, are you saying that Mother Yasoda, Nanda Maharaj, Subal, Sridama, Madhumangal, Lalita, Visaka, Tungabhadra, Candravali and other parisads are ordinary jiva souls? Are you saying that they don't have a special position?

[BhaktiK]

Good point

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

So there are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva.

 

 

Are you people completely dumb

 

 

 

And the Caravan contines on -

 

 

 

 

The people who claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva usually claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva. (they ARE Vishnu tattva)

 

 

 

 

The fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva. Because sakti-tattva refers to the general principle of being a sakti of the Lord, and not to a specific type of living entity, therefore they are both. Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - "Mother Lakshmi, who is here, is the reservoir of all spiritual qualities, whereas You manifest and enjoy all these qualities. Indeed, You are actually the enjoyer of everything. You live as the Supersoul of all living entities, and the goddess of fortune is the form of their bodies, senses and minds. She also has a holy name and form, whereas You are the support of all such names and forms and the cause for their manifestation". Srimad Bhagavatam 6.19.13

 

 

Many of the Cowheard boys and Gopis are expansions of Krishna (Vishnu-tattva) yet many are jiva-tattva

 

When Lord Caitanya came, the caitanya Caritamrita explains that many personalities were Vishnu tattva, for example out of the panca-tattva, only one is Jiva tattva (Sri Vas or Narada Muni) the rest are Vishnu tattva

 

So yes, in many cases in Krishna Lila Mother Yasoda is jiva-tattva, the same for some of the cowherd boys and gopis.

 

Remember that our rasa in Goloka can change as Srila Prabhupada explains.

 

However while we only see the material body or vessel one is in, foolishly thinking that vessel is who one is, as most of us are doing on these threads, then we will NEVER understand until we First understand we are not the material body we are All presently trapped in

[Sarva gattah]

 

From where does the "plain sheet of consciousness" originate? Hint: sarva karna karanam.

 

Hint??

 

 

 

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

[bs. 5.1]

 

 

So these Bhagavans... There are expansion of Bhagavan. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [bs 5.33]. Bhagavan has got unlimited number of expansions. It is stated, "Just like you cannot count in the river how many waves are flowing, similarly, you cannot count even how many expansions are there of Bhagavan."

 

 

(Especially in Krishna and Caitanya Lila).

 

 

Anyway

 

The description of sparks in the effulgence or, a particle of living so called atom in a ray of individual dormant light particles, as one advanced humble Vaishnava puts it, is ONLY correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. This is because the living entity only 'sub-consciously' leaves Goloka in a 'dream-like' consciousness that IS the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entities identity.

 

This baddha-jiva dream state consciousness enters the mahat-tattva and is given foen by Maha-Vishnu. After many millions and millions of birtha throughout the three worlds of material existence, the baddha-jiva becomes fed up with the temporary nature of the material creation and takes refuge in the 'inactive dreamless' impersonal Btahmajyoti. And stays there until the next maha-tattva creation manifests.

 

In this way Sridar maharaj maybe refering to the baddha-jiva that is the 'dark side' of our marginal identity. The light side' of our maginal identity is eternally nitya-siddha and that is our perpetual 'svarupa' bodily identity that can never fall down from Goloka. It is something to be regained Prabhupada has told us.

The vast majority of creation is Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana where all living entities are aware of their nitya-siddha perpetual status.

 

On the other hand, those who choose not to be nitya siddha, which means being fully aware that they are Krishna’s eternal servants, ONLY 'consciously' leave Goloka, not as their nitya-siddha body, but as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the DREAMING mahat-tattva creation relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu.

 

Or can eventually EVEN EVENTUALLY after passing through the mahat-tattva, merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, which is true but only after we FIRST have ’sub-consciously’ come down from Goloka as our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming sub-conscious thoughts.

[BhaktiK]

krsnera svarupa ara sakti traya jnana

yanra haya, tanra nahi krsnete ajnana

cic-chakti svarupa-sakti antaranga-nama

tahara vaibhava ananta vaikunthadi dhama

maya sakti bahiranga jagat-karana

yahara vaibhava ananta brahmandera gana

jiva sakti tatasthakya nahi yara anta

mukhya tina sakti tara vibheda ananta

ei ta' svarupa gana ara tina sakti

sabara asraya krsna, krsne sabara sthiti

 

One who knows the real feature of Sri Krsna and His three different energies cannot remain ignorant about Him. The cit sakti, which is also called svarupa sakti or antaranga sakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia. The external energy, called maya sakti, is the cause of innumerable universes with varied material potencies. The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

 

C.C.Adi. 2.96, 101-104

[Sarva gattah]

Thank you for keeping up the interest on this thread.

 

Many are understanding that our original position is with Krishna and always has been because of the interest this thread iS generating.

 

Hari Bol!!

 

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness".

 

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila”

Live with it, these quotes are not going to go away

 

Live with it prabhu's, these quotes are not going to go away!!

 

The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some nonsense sects believe.

 

This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented AS their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state of a clear sheet of consciousness that is in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha.

 

Tatastha is the jiva tattva.

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah, you still have not answered this question:

 

Sarva gattah, are you saying that Mother Yasoda, Nanda Maharaj, Subal, Sridama, Madhumangal, Lalita, Visaka, Tungabhadra, Candravali and other parisads are ordinary jiva souls? Are you saying that they don't have a special position?

 

Can such persons "fall down" or at least "dream" their way into the mahat-tattva? Can they temporarily (for millions of lifetimes) forget Krsna?

Can Mother Yasoda forget Krsna? Can Srimati Radharani forget Krsna? Who are these persons? Are they jivas or not?