No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies -

1. internal,

2. marginal and

3. external.

 

1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities.

 

3. And by means of His Lifeless external energy which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (also known as the mahat-tattva)

 

Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha by clearly understanding the following -

 

The three varieties of energies of Lord Krishna are therefore

 

Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. It is important to undertand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy, they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha.

 

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be inbetween the Superior and inferior. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual creation or Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation.

 

Inferior - The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies. The life force from the Superior plain (Krishna and His expansions like Maha-Vishnu) and the marginal plain (the jiva-tatastha in their secondary nitya-baddha DREAMING conscious projection [except of course a nitya-siddha devotee in Krishna's lila in the mahat-tattva like Srila Prabhupada]) ALL move the inferior energies (material) that has no life.

 

 

</FONT]

[Beggar]

 

...Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. It is important to undertand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy, they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha.

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.6

 

na tad bhāsayate sūryo

na śaśāńko na pāvakaḥ

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaḿ mama

SYNONYMS

na — not; tat — that; bhāsayate — illuminates; sūryaḥ — the sun; na — nor; śaśāńkaḥ — the moon; na — nor; pāvakaḥ — fire, electricity; yat — where; gatvā — going; na — never; nivartante — they come back; tat dhāma — that abode; paramam — supreme; mama — My.

TRANSLATION

That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.

 

 

 

Never? Does never really mean never and what are the implications of this. If the souls who go there "never return" how would they still be marginal. Prabhupada in some conversations and letters stressed how they always have a choice, but never means they never choose to come back to this material world. If in an infinite number of possibilities something that has a possibility of occuring never occurs then what would the odds of this happening. The answer is zero, yes - 0. So Prabhupada has given a circular argument, not that he is illogical, but that he wants to illustrate that love is based on freedom.

 

 

 

 

From class on Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.28.21

Nairobi, Novewmber 1, 1975 by Srila Prabhupada

So actually we are in the darkness. This whole world is dark. It is... It requires, therefore, the sunlight, the moonlight, the electric light, the fire, the lamp, because it is dark. Because it is dark. But there is a spiritual world where here is no need of. Na yatra bhasyate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll find, na yatra bhasyate suryah. There is no need of this surya. There is no need of surya. Surya is required, the sun is required, because this world, material world, is dark, very, very dark, dense darkness. And we are born in this darkness. Our heart is full of darkness. Simply by the Krsna's grace there is sun, there is moon, there is fire, there is electric... Therefore we can see. Otherwise you remain in the darkness. But if you go to the spiritual world... Tamasi ma: "You don't keep yourself in this darkness; come to the light.What is that? There is also the sun, moon?" No. There is no need. Na yatra bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [bg. 15.6]. These are there. Where is Bhagavad-gita? Find out. Na yatra bhasayate suryah. Who will find out? This is spiritual world. There is no need of sun, moon, electricity, fire. We are inviting, or, rather, trying to go to that world where there is no need of sun, there is no need of moon, there is no need of electricity. And somehow or other, if we can go there, yad gatva na nivartante [bg. 15.6], then you'll haven't got to come back again in this darkness. This is Krsna consciousness movement.

 

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:His holiness Beggar

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>And somehow or other, if we can go there, yad gatva na nivartante [bg. 15.6], then you'll haven't got to come back again in this darkness. This is Krsna consciousness movement. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Most inhabitants of Goloka and Vaikuntha never come to the material world and those that do, on return never come again however, the choice is always there but they choose to never again fall down

We are always marginal, tatastha s'akti. This means we have our choice to serve Krishna instead of loosing our individuality and free will, if we didn't we would simply be robots. Have you ever seen Star trek? The Spiritual world is not like the Borg where we are assimilated into Vaikuntha and are simple programmed servants.

How can there be love under those conditions?

Our marginal tatastha status actually allows us to show love ever expanding affection to Krishna in our own personal way because being marginal allows us to do that.

Now if we do not use that marginal independence to serve Krishna, then we serve our own desires that places us in the mahat-tattva

It’s very important to understand we are marginal tatastha even in Vaikuntha or Goloka. Remember the marginal is in-between the superior and inferior which really means we have the choice to associate with the superior (Krishna, Radha, all the eternal inhabitants of Goloka, or the inferior (the mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu).

Your right about such inhabitants in Goloka, even though many are in the assembly of Vishnu tattva like Radha, Balarama many of the Gopis and cowherd boys etc, the majority of marginal nitya-siddha’s also never fall down to nitya baddha because that is their choose.

My point is they have a choice but choose to serve the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Beggar who serves the servants of Krishna (being a little humorous)

[Beggar]

So again we come to the point where we can see that if what you say is true, then the divine servitors who have never fallen (or dreamed that they have fallen, however you view it) are really in a lesser position than a conditioned soul who eventually goes to the spiritual world. In fact if you consider that in the spiritual world time is eternal then that infinitely increases the possibility that that the divine servitors will indeed fall, in fact over an infinite amount of time in would almost insure it whereas since the "new" divine servitors have already "stuck their hand in the fire" and have learned their lesson. So now you have a philosophy where fallen souls have a higher position than Krsna's eternal servitors; IOW a brand new bhakta would be in better shape than the eternal divine servitors of Krsna. You can twist it around and say that we are ALL divine servitors by nature, but we are talking about divine servitors who are FIXED UP in that position. What do you think, that some brahmacari in the temple is fixed up but the eternal servitors of Krsna who have never fallen are not? What an absurd philosophy. If your understanding (misunderstanding) becomes dominant in ISKCON, then they will eventually be completely eclipsed by "outside" Gaudiya Groups.

[Sarva gattah]

 

So again we come to the point where we can see that if what you say is true, then the divine servitors who have never fallen (or dreamed that they have fallen, however you view it) are really in a lesser position than a conditioned soul who eventually goes to the spiritual world.

 

They are still marginal regardless of whether they fall down to nitya baddha or not.

 

A better word than 'being lesser' is that some marginal living entities simply choose to fall down, while others never fall down and forget their nitya siddha status and act as nitya baddha.

 

Now there is a Sanskrit word for those who choose never to fall down, but is does not change the fact that they are marginal.

 

There are only two kinds of living beings -

 

1. Krishna and His Vishnu-tattva expansions that includes the special features of Vishnu -tattva that puts them in a different prospective

 

2. Marginal (tatastha) living entities that includes those exclusive nitya-siddhas who never fall to nitya baddha. And it also includes those who do fall down to nitya baddha consciousness that enter the dreams of Maha Vishnu within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

 

There are different categories of nitya-siddhas that some say are not in the category of ordinary marginal living entities however, never the less, they ARE marginal, they are tatastha s'akti regardless of what ever category they are in within Krsna Lila.

It is important to clearly understand that tatastha s'akti (marginal) living beings can never become Vishnu tattva

[Beggar]

Your right about such inhabitants in Goloka, even though many are in the assembly of Vishnu tattva like Radha, Balarama many of the Gopis and cowherd boys etc,the majority of marginal nitya-siddha’s also never fall down to nitya baddha because that is their choose.

Going back a post - You are still referring to "Radha" as Vishnu tattva which is like calling Her a purusha or a man, a definite rasa-bhasa as well as an inaccuracy.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Going back a post - You are still referring to "Radha" as Vishnu tattva which is like calling Her a purusha or a man, a definite rasa-bhasa as well as an inaccuracy.

 

Lord Caitanya is the combination of Radha and Krishna, they in the category of Vishnu tattva however Krishna is the original and along with Srimati Radharani, are separate (in a league of their own) from His other Vishnu tattva expansions.

This is highly very highly spiritual topic. Radharani is actually more than Vishnu tattva because she is Krishna’s beloved consort. I am not pure enough nor certainly advanced enough to jump to the 10th Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

But it is a fact that Srimati Radharani is in the exclusive consortium within in the Vishnu-tattva coalition. Radha and Krishna are non different (except in mood loving exchanges) as Lord Caitanya exhibits

Krishna and His Vishnu-tattva expansions, that includes the special features of Vishnu-tattva, puts some expansions like Radha, in a different prospective within the realm of highly advanced pure devotional loving exchanges.

[Beggar]

Visnu or Narayana is purusa and Laksmi is prakrti. Krsna is the Supreme, original purusa and Srimati Radharani is the Supreme, original prakrti. Sakti saktiman abheda. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur uses the terms the Predominating and the Predominated moiety (moiety means half). Saktiman is the purusa or predominator and sakti is the prakrti or predominated. They are abheda or non-different but they are simultaneously different. It is polar, Krsna is the Supreme positive and Radharani is the Supreme negative. She is drawing Krsna's attention by her infinite capacity to sacrifice Herself for Him. Pure devotees have this negative charge or capacity for self sacrifice but not to the infinite degree of Srimati Radharani. This is essentially Srila Sridhar Maharaj's explanation in my words.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Visnu or Narayana is purusa and Laksmi is prakrti.

 

Krsna is the Supreme, original purusa.

 

Srimati Radharani is the Supreme, original prakrti. Sakti saktiman abheda.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur uses the terms the Predominating and the Predominated moiety (moiety means half).

 

Saktiman is the purusa or predominator

 

sakti is the prakrti or predominated.

 

They are abheda or non-different but they are simultaneously different.

 

It is polar, Krsna is the Supreme positive and Radharani is the Supreme negative. She is drawing Krsna's attention by her infinite capacity to sacrifice Herself for Him.

 

Pure devotees have this negative charge or capacity for self sacrifice but not to the infinite degree of Srimati Radharani.

 

This is essentially Srila Sridhar Maharaj's explanation in my words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur "One who is desirous of entering into the esoteric pastimes of Krsna will have to practice His transcendental service along with the culture of the devotional knowledge relative to Him.

(1) Krsna-svarupa--the proper Self of Krsna;

(2) Krsna cin-maya-vraja-lila-vilasa-svarupa--the true nature of Krsna's transcendental pastimes in Vraja;

(3) Tat-parikara-gopijana-svarupa--the true nature of His spiritual associates in Vraja, viz., the spiritual milkmen and the milkmaids;

(4) Tad-vallabha--the true nature of self-surrender to Krsna in the footsteps ofthe spiritual milkmaids of Vraja;

(5) suddha-jivasya cid-(jnana)-svarupa--the true nature of the spiritual knowledge of the unalloyed individual soul;

(6) Cit-prakrtir arthat krsna-seva-svabhava--the true nature of transcendental service to Krsna is this that the esoteric relation is established on the awakening of one's pure cognition.

The meaning is that rasa is only the transcendental service of the central refuge Sri Krsna, as predominating aspect of the Absolute, by one's ego as the spiritual maid of the predominated moiety of the absolute integer, attended with pure devotion in the shape of one’s entire self-surrender.

The pastime in Goloka or in Gokula during the stage of devotional progress is the meditative worship through the mantra, and during the stage of perfection the pastimes manifest themselves as the unrestrained transcendental jubilations.

This is the real aspect of Goloka or Gokula, which will be made more explicit in due course.

 

The meaning of the words jyoti-rupenamanuna is that the transcendental meaning is expressed in the mantra by means of which, on transcendental desire of love for Krsna and the service of Krsna be in gadded, one is established in the eternal love of Krsna.

Such eternal pastimes are eternally manifested in Goloka". From the Brahma samhita

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by tackleberry

Why do most people have a problem accepting the "fall down" theory, when it can be explained quite easily. OTOH, the opposite cannot be explained with logic and shastra.

Every jiva is dreaming this material world, which is similar to a king dreaming he's a his holiness Beggar.

 

In reality, the king is not a Beggar , but the intensity of the dream is so strong that he IS a Beggar for all practical purposes.

 

Likewise, every jiva is nitya siddha, but maya is so powerful he's also a badha jiva (even though, technically, he's not).

 

Obviously, this puts an end to the apparent contradiction as to how a jiva can be both, or whether there can be a fall down. Fall down IS and ISN'T, going by the dream analogy.

 

So simple and easy to understand.

 

Why can't people accept this, instead of fighting over this like petty minded people?

 

 

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[BhaktiK]

 

 

Why do most people have a problem accepting the "fall down" theory, when it can be explained quite easily.

 

 

Why?

 

Because Mahaprabhu taught Sanatan Goswami that souls emerge from Brahman and enter Goloka. This is the Teaching of Lord Chaitanya - not the dream/fall theory.

 

OTOH, the opposite cannot be explained with logic and shastra.

 

 

Have you studied the shastra?

 

Look at the teachings of Sri Chaitanyadeva to Sanatan Goswami in Chaitanya Charitamrta. There in that shastra you will find that Mahaprbhu explains, in the Atmarama verse chapter, that souls emerge from Brahman and enter the path of bhakti.

 

Scriptural evidence is totally in support of what Srila Sridhar Maharaj taught and there is no evidence in scripture at all that souls fall from Vaikuntha and become embroiled in Maya.

 

As Maharaj Yudhisthira said to Narad Muni "For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall into this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this." (SB 7.1.34)

 

 

Every jiva is dreaming this material world, which is similar to a king dreaming he's a his holiness Beggar.

 

In reality, the king is not a Beggar , but the intensity of the dream is so strong that he IS a Beggar for all practical purposes.

 

Likewise, every jiva is nitya siddha, but maya is so powerful he's also a badha jiva (even though, technically, he's not).

 

Obviously, this puts an end to the apparent contradiction as to how a jiva can be both, or whether there can be a fall down. Fall down IS and ISN'T, going by the dream analogy.

 

So simple and easy to understand.

 

Why can't people accept this, instead of fighting over this like petty minded people?

 

Why can't people accept this? Because the fall theory is a NEW theory that was dreamed up rather recently. It is not what the Predecessor Acharyyas taught.

[BhaktiK]

Katha Upanishad 4.4

 

स्वप्नान्तं जागरितान्तं चोभौ येनानुपश्यति ।

महान्तं विभुमात्मानं मत्वा धीरो न शोचति ॥ ४ ॥

The calm soul, having comprehended the great Lord, the omnipresent Higher Self by Whom one beholds both dreams and the waking state, that calm soul ceases grieving forever.

 

य इमं मध्वदं वेद आत्मानं जीवमन्तिकात् ।

ईशानं भूतभव्यस्य न ततो विजुगुप्सते ।

एतद्वै तत् ॥ ५ ॥

5. A person who knows that the individual self is not the enjoyer but instead a dependent being, that person sees things as they really are. The individual self is dependent on the Supreme Self, the Lord of what was and what shall be. He who realizes the individual self is dependent on the Lord will never again feel fear. This is That which you seek.

 

--------

 

Vishnu causes us to experience dreams and waking states. But someone who has realized Vishnu, he never falls down.

 

If it is true that souls in Vaikuntha can fall into a false dream state and experience mental pain, then the souls in Vaikuntha must be fearful that they can enter into that sort of suffering.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by tackleberry

 

So simple and easy to understand.

Why can't people accept this, instead of fighting over this like petty minded people?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></I></B>

 

As has already been clearly revealed by the Guru Sadhu and shastra, all living entities originally came down from Vaikuntha, it is a mistake to believe they had an impersonal origin and came from the dormant Brahmajyoti,

Those who believe in an impersonalism origin, or that we emerge from the Brahman dormant effulgence, have misunderstood shastra and are reading various versions and translations that do not give the correct picture of how we all originate from Goloka

 

The marginal living entity or jiva soul is beginningless and endless so we certainly do NOT fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, nor are their new souls being created

Srila Prabhupada- "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

George Harrison - "Swamiji, can you tell us why we're in this material contamination? Why is is that the spirit soul has material contamination"?

Srila Prabhupada- "Just like many boys gives up the association of the parents and he wants to enjoy this material world in his own way, without the sanction of the father and mother. He has got the right. Similarly, although we are all sons of God, or Krsna, we have got the independence to give up His company and enjoy this material world. That is contamination". Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1971 710730SB.LON

Srila Prabhupada- “We have given up the company of Krsna, and we wanted to be happy in this material world;Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

Srila Prabhupada- “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment”. Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Srila Prabhupada- "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Srimad Bhagavayam – “The brahmana says My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.” Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53

From the Fourth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, where a brahmana gives instruction to Queen Vaidarbhi after the death of her husband.

 

It is clear from this text that the original home of the living entity is Goloka

The brahmana says to Vaidarbhi:

 

 

 

"Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man laying there? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body.

Don't you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.

My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend?

Unfortunately, you gave up My Company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Manasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home." (SB 4.28.52-54)

 

"The Jiva may possess one of two states. He may be either in the conditioned state nitya-baddha) or in the pure spiritual state (nitya-siddha).

 

 

In respect of his spiritual function the Jiva is great, undivided, whole, pure and eternal. As long as the Jiva retains his pure spiritual condition he exhibits his spiritual function in his uneclipsed form.

When the Jiva is contaminated by relationship with the eclipsing potency (Maya) only then, by reason of the perversion of his proper function, he is not fully pure and feels helpless and afflicted with mundane pleasure and pain.

The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the Jiva’s loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krishna." Jaiva Dharma p.12.

 

"In his true nature the jiva is the devoted servant of Krishna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs due to their seeking after their own pleasure, turned away from Krishna and as such, became punishable." Jaiva Dharma p. 240

Srila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Srila Prabhupada Originally the living entity is a spiritual being, but when he actually desires to enjoy this material world, he comes down to the material creation.

 

From this verse we can understand that the living entity first accepts a body that is human in form, but gradually, due to his degraded activities, he falls into lower forms of life into the animal, plant and aquatic forms.

 

By the gradual process of evolution, the living entity again attains the body of a human being and is given another chance to get out of the process of transmigration.

 

If he again misses his chance in the human form to understand his position, he is again placed in the cycle of birth and death in various types of bodies. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53

 

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - ""The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world.

 

In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world.

 

However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28 54.

[Beggar]

The brahmajyoti is only impersonal if it is viewed as separate from Krsna. Even Krsna's effulgence is made up of unlimited spiritual persons. The only reason that Srila Prabhupada uses the term "impersonal brahmajyoti" is to illustrate how it is not the goal of bhakti yoga for no active rasa is possible there. When the brahmajyoti is given as the source of the jivas by sastra and the previous acaryas it is understood that the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For the personalist even the so-called impersonal aspect of the Lord is not seen as separate from his personal form but rather an extension, i.e. His effulgence. This is a key fault in your analysis.

[Sarva gattah]

The impersonal Brahman effulgence is full of jiva-baddha's in a dormant non-active dreamless state. It is a temporary state for the jiva-baddha consciousness while inactive or free from the temporary bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

However this jiva baddha condition is actually the secondary conscious projection of the living entity that manifests within the sub-consciousness of the living entity when they choose to not serve Krishna, but instead chase their own delusional desires for pleasure.

As soon as the living entity chooses to withdrawal into to their sub-conscious altered dreaming state, due to choosing to forget Krishna, they simultaneously forget their eternal nitya-siddha body and Krishna.

 

Instead, they now live within their own imaginary thoughts and dreams that place their sub-consciousness (nitya-baddha or baddha jiva lower self) within the mahat-tattva dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu.

They can stay in this dream mahat-tattva creation for an almost eternity if they desire.

The paradox here is when the baddha jiva chooses to come back home to Goloka and stop wondering the material universes and constantly entering the Brahman effulgence to escape the mahat-tattva, where the jiva-baddha experiences merging into a collective with other individual souls (baddha-jivas) that are all in an inactive dreamless impersonal consciousness (which is also temporary),

The paradox is, that on return to their Krishna conscious awareness and waking from the dreaming baddha-jiva-coma state of material and impersonal existence, back to who they really are as their nitya-siddha body, it will be as if they never left Goloka.

 

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that this is too difficult to understand all this and how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha, and the subject is best not discussed. Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire.

Here is Srila Prabhupada's response.

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974

 

Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is NITYA-SIDDHA. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Srila Prabhupada – “In the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Krsna? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately.

Srila Prabhupada – “So there is potency of thinking like that. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare, pasate maya tare japatiya dhare. As soon as one forgets the service of the Lord and he wants to become himself Lord, immediately maya will capture. This maya means this material world. 2 March 1975 Atlanta

Srila Prabhupada – Because we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama phale. Anadi means before the (mahat-tattva) creation. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Lectures Bhagavad-gita 1973 730806BG.LON

[Beggar]

All these things come alive when we are really engaging in devotional service and preaching to others; then it is a living thing. When we are just arguing and rehashing amongst those who at least intellectually accept Prabhupada and Krsna, transcendental knowledge can become transformed into empiric knowledge and we can be likewise transformed into arm chair philosophers. Unfortunately too much free time and the internet facilitates such activity and I am drawn to it like a moth to the fire. When we cannot tolerate that a section of devotees cannot accept my realization and we go on an endless campaign to convince others, then our empiric knowledge of Krsna Consciousness becomes fodder for a political agenda which is neither Krsna katha or preaching. I think that we are both guilty of this and it would be a step to admit it. How much longer do we have in these bodies anyway? Even if we live out our average life expectancies we are on a kind of death row. And who knows if we'll even make it that long. We are just really reflections of each other, for whatever reason one person's mind works one way and another's in a different way. But Krsna Consciousness is beyond the mental and intellectual platforms and this is actually good news for us. So we are not without hope if we can continue to chant Hare Krsna, serve guru and Vaisnavas and eliminate offenses.

Signing out for now, Beggar

[Sarva gattah]

I agree with most of what you say, I pray to Prabhupada that I can, EVERYONE I talk too, even the check out girl at the Super Market, I tell them about Krishna, somehow or other bringing Krishna into the conversation

 

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Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974

 

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Originally Posted by theist

 

 

 

Lord Caitanya was being quite literal when He exhorted ,

 

 

"Jiv Jago Jiva Jago"

Awaken sleeping souls!"

 

 

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Always in kali-yuga,

 

 

 

 

harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam kalau nasteva nasteva nastera gatir anyatha!!

 

In kali-yuga, neither yoga, nor tapasya, nor any other process is required. Among the limbs of bhakti, this maha-mantra, nama sankirtana of -

 

 

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

 

is the most prominent and only way in this degraded age to go back home, back to Godhead and regain our original position as eternal servant of Krsna. Everything is in the name.

 

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - "However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas." Prema-pradipa, p. 83

The description Padmalochan Prabhu gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move.

 

It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all. In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection.

 

When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is"

Svarupa Damodara: "The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material".

Srila Prabhupada: "He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies." .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

Many believe we are 'literally' living individual sparks in some effulgence, believing we are actual atoms or molecules in the living impersonal Brahmajyoti that is really only an aspect or secondary characteristic of jiva tatastha known as the nitya-baddha consciousness.

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our "Old" consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

The correct understanding of even using the word 'seed form' that really means that our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within the eternal imperishable realm Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words 'we' are already there and we just have to become 'Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it'

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

So what is the marginal living entity (jiva tatastha)? What is the jiva soul? What is the nitya-siddha perpetual body? What is nitya-baddha consciousness? What is tatastha? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Tatastha s'akti therefore refers to the jiva soul's sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have 'our' identity, personality, individuality and desires that are in the catorgory of marginal, which is situated in an independent realm that is subject to superior (Vaikuntha) and inferior (mahat-tattva) CHOICE that our own way of thinking exists eternally.

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place, plane or area of living 'sparks and atoms' in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation as some 'plain sheet' of dormant individual consciousness.

 

The correct understanding is we are eternally under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable Vaikunthas (Serving Lord Krishna perpetually as ones eternal nitya-siddha body), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva's ethereal and biological vessels)

This is an important point for all of us to understand.

Therefore jiva tatastha refers to us, the marginal living entity that is presently in the baddha-jiva covered condition that is further contained by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels) that covers our 'awareness’ of our nitya siddha body, which is the full expression, or potential of the jiva-tatastha

Srila Prabhupada – "Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leave Vaikuntha, they only 'think' they are fallen or 'dream' they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down". Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second". Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

The jiva tatastha certainly does not originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

At present, due to being in the material creation, the marginal living entity is manifested as the jiva baddha soul that can also manifest dormantly or inactively in a dreaming dreamless consciousness state that becomes another spark of living individual light that makes up the impersonal Brahman

 

This living force (the secondary baddha-jiva consciosness) is projected from the greater (personal) Brahmajyoti (the Spiritual Sky of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana) where the living entities eternal nitya siddha svarupa body is eternally manifest.

Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea of impersonal origins and personal told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness that is facilitated by Maha-Vishnu, which is true but only after we have come down from Goloka.

There is an example below where the shastra states our origin is from the body of Maha Vishnu, but what that really means is we enter that condition only AFTER we have used our free will to leave Goloka, not as our perpetual body, because that is not possible, but rather as our dreams and thoughts manifesting as a sub-conscious projection called the nitya-baddha consciousness.

No marginal living entity (jivas) originates from the body of Maha-Vishnu or the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Technically there is no origin to the jivas or living entities because they all have an eternal bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is there without beginning or end.

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea of impersonal origins...

 

So does Srila Sridhar Maharaj for he knew that the brahmajyoti emanates from the transcendental body of Bhagavan.

 

 

In other words 'we' are already there and we just have to become 'Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it'

 

That's like saying that we are chanting the name of Krsna but do not realize that He is non-different from His name. And what keeps us from realizing that Krsna is non-different from His name? Our nama aparadha or offenses, but from another angle of vision, we are actually chanting nama aparadha rather than suddha nama (the pure name) or what Srila Sridhar Maharaj calls "the name proper". The same thing is true of the different angles of vision on the origin of the soul. It is not that one angle of vision cancels out the other.

[Sarva gattah]

Beggar Prabhu you misunderstand Srila Prabhupada’s point which is really the basic foundation of this thread

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974

 

Srila Prabhupada: "He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Svarupa Damodara wedsite

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - "The imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas." Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada – "Because we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago". Bhagavad-gita 1973 730806BG.LON

 

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[Beggar]

The discussion was really initially how to see that there is no contradiction in Srila Prabhupada's teachings about the origin of the soul. The only reason some devotees see a contradiction is because two different angles of vision are there. Here is a simple example: The concept of "back to godhead". How can you go "back" to a place where you already are? So from one angle we are in the material world and from another we are already there. In sastra it says that we were in the brahmajyoti part of godhead, it appears that Prabhupada said at least several times that we were in the spiritual planets. So we must go back to godhead. Some times Srila Prabhupada say that going back means to understand that you are already there. But that viewpoint does not supercede the others to the extent that you should conclude that Srila Prabhupada writing that "no one falls from Vaikuntha" is part of the "we are already there" scenerio. You have to calm down and stop propagandizing. We have gotten to the point that we have begun a real discussion and that is a small breakthough. In some ways we have already agreed to disagree on certain points but sometimes you lapse back into putting up a wall of rhetoric.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The correct understanding is we are eternally under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable Vaikunthas (Serving Lord Krishna perpetually as ones eternal nitya-siddha body), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva's ethereal and biological vessels) as our baddha-jiva mundane consciousness

This is an important point for all of us to understand.

Therefore jiva tatastha refers to us, the marginal living entity that is presently in the baddha-jiva covered condition that is further contained by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels) that covers our 'awareness’ of our nitya siddha body, which is the full expression, or potential of the jiva-tatastha

Srila Prabhupada – "Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leave Vaikuntha, they only 'think' they are fallen or 'dream' they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down". Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second". Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah has regressed based on the fear that if he shows some understanding of another position he will lose his own.

[Sarva gattah]

No, I just got carried away with a few realization. Sorry about that. I just read an old BTG aricle, number 37 (1970) where Sridar Maharaj discribes how sound vibrations are the cause of all diseases, very interesting.

 

It makes you wonder what the mudane present day music is doing to people, well we already know that, the gratefuful dead and the Beatles are just the same except for a few mentions of Krishna.

 

If you know where that artcle is on the web, tell me or you start a new thread with it. Hari Bol

[gHari]

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya 22.107:

 

<center>

nitya-siddha kRSNa-prema ‘sAdhya' kabhu naya

zravaNAdi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

</center>

nitya-siddha--eternally established; kRSNa-prema--love of KRSNa; sAdhya--to be gained; kabhu--at any time; naya--not; zravaNa-Adi--by hearing, etc.; zuddha--purified; citte--in the heart; karaye udaya--awakens.

"Pure love for KRSNa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

Lecture SB 1.5.25:

PrabhupAda: So many. There are different terms. So this is the process. We are eternally related with KRSNa, nitya-siddha kRSNa-bhakti, and we're eternally very affectionate and obedient servant of KRSNa. That is our position. Somehow or other, it is covered. So that garbage that's covering has to be moved. Therefore Caitanya MahAprabhu said, ceto-darpaNa-mArjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This is the process of cleansing the mirror of the heart. Mirror, when it is covered by dust you cannot see your face nicely. But as soon as it is nicely brushed and cleansed, you see exactly what you are. Similarly, this KRSNa consciousness movement means cleansing the heart of all the dirty things that is accumulated life after life. It is not an artificial thing, we are learning to become devotee of KRSNa. We are already devotee of KRSNa, but we have forgotten, or the consciousness is covered. Now, by this process, devotional process, especially by kIrtana, by chanting, glorifying the holy name of the Lord, the cleansing process is accelerated. Very soon it takes place.

 

 

 

Lecture BG 4.21:

When one becomes yogi.... Our real purpose of life is to become yogi. Yogi means to reestablish our connection, our lost connection, with God. At the present moment, in our material condition, we have forgotten our relationship, our eternal relationship with KRSNa, or God.

 

nitya-siddha kRSNa-bhakti sAdhya kabhu naya

zravaNAdi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

The kRSNa-bhakti, our love for KRSNa, is there eternally. But on account of our contamination with this material world, we have forgotten our relationship.

Just like a madman, he forgets his relationship with the family. He loiters in the street. He eats anywhere and everywhere and all rubbish things. Although he may have a very rich father, well-to-do family, but forgetting.... Madness means forgetfulness of his real life. So we are now forgetful of our real life.

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah, try:

http://bvml.org/SBRSM/tdothn.html