No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Kulapavana]

 

This is where the origin of the jiva soul came up and Madhudvisa had to explain that we do not originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as many Hindu's believed, but have come down from Vaikuntha many millions of years ago.

 

Bruce Springsteen:

 

You'd better watch out, you'd better not cry

You'd better not pout, I'm telling you why

Santa Claus is coming to town

Santa Claus is coming to town

Santa Claus is coming to town

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave...

No matter how many quotes you post and how many times you write this, I believe that the great majority of Srila Prabhupada's followers on both sides of the origin issue would not agree with this. It is said that Krsna never leaves Vrindavana (vrindavanam parityajya padam ekam na gacchati). Padam means the lotus feet of the Lord not that of the conditioned jiva souls. No where is it ever stated in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sastras that the baddha jivas (conditioned souls) never leave Vrndavana (Goloka). All you are doing is taking statements of Srila Prabhupada about the origin of the soul and about how our fallen condition is like a dream, mixing them together, extrapolating and inventing a new philosophy and then packaging it with Srila Prabhupada's face on the label. Very risky business.

[bhaktajan]

 

Quote:

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Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave...

 

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Dear Mr. Begger,

Allow me to paraphrase:

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

As many quotes that are posted and how many times one write this, I believe that the great majority of Srila Prabhupada's followers on both sides of the origin issue would agree with this.

It is said that Krsna never leaves Vrindavana (vrindavanam parityajya padam ekam na gacchati). Padam means the lotus feet of the Lord not that of the conditioned jiva souls. Every where it is always stated in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sastras that the baddha jivas (conditioned souls) leave Vrndavana-Goloka and then return Back home, Back to Godhead.

All we are doing is taking statements of Srila Prabhupada about the origin of the soul and about how our fallen condition is like a dream, and together, presenting the philosophy as it is and then posting it with Srila Prabhupada's face on the label. Very nice service. Remember: The Jagat-Guru has spoken it, printed-it distributed it, purported it: "Back home, Back to Godhead"

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

PS: The Best Little Rascal's episode was the "Building of the Fire-Truck"

Ys,

Bhaktajan

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave...

 

[beggar]I believe that the great majority of Srila Prabhupada's followers on both sides of the origin issue would not agree with this (above)

 

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Srila Prabhupada clearly does -

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation" Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things". Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

 

There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way where we can understand that we never fall from Goloka, we only dream we do.

[Beggar]

 

 

 

Monsieur Bhaktajana Prabhu, I think only you, Sarva gattah (Svarupa et.al), and a hand full of Aussies believe that we are dreaming in our fully developed spiritual bodies in Goloka. Also it is quite clear from the film that the Wild Man from Borneo is also in your camp.

 

Monsieur Bhaktajana Prabhu, je vous pense seulement, gattah de Sarva (Svarupa et autres), et une main complètement d'Aussies croient que nous rêvons dans nos corps spirituels entièrement développés dans Goloka. En outre elle est tout à fait claire du film que l'homme Sauvage du Bornéo est également dans votre camp.

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

[Beggar]

 

 

 

Īśvara (the Supreme Lord), jīva (the living entity), prakṛti (nature), kāla (eternal time) and karma (activity) are all explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Out of these five, the Lord, the living entities, material nature and time are eternal. The manifestation of prakṛti may be temporary, but it is not false. Some philosophers say that the manifestation of material nature is false, but according to the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā or according to the philosophy of the Vaiṣṇavas, this is not so. The manifestation of the world is not accepted as false; it is accepted as real, but temporary. It is likened unto a cloud which moves across the sky, or the coming of the rainy season, which nourishes grains. As soon as the rainy season is over and as soon as the cloud goes away, all the crops which were nourished by the rain dry up. Similarly, this material manifestation takes place at a certain interval, stays for a while and then disappears. Such are the workings of prakṛti. But this cycle is working eternally. Therefore prakṛti is eternal; it is not false. The Lord refers to this as "My prakṛti." This material nature is the separated energy of the Supreme Lord, and similarly the living entities are also the energy of the Supreme Lord, although they are not separated but eternally related. So the Lord, the living entity, material nature and time are all interrelated and are all eternal. However, the other item, karma, is not eternal. The effects of karma may be very old indeed. We are suffering or enjoying the results of our activities from time immemorial, but we can change the results of our karma, or our activity, and this change depends on the perfection of our knowledge. We are engaged in various activities. Undoubtedly we do not know what sort of activities we should adopt to gain relief from the actions and reactions of all these activities, but this is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. From the Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita As It Is

[Sarva gattah]

Beggar prabhu, this entire conversation is really based on our entrance into Vaikuntha or Goloka (the eternal present) If the 'present' is eternal, it means we have always been there and have only imagined we are not there.

 

This is what Prabhupada is trying to tell us.

 

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never falling down, he is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

In fact most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha be covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state.

Therefore most marginal living entities do allow themselves to be covered by their baddha-jiva consciousness because of their desire to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha.

Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation.

The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine and dream they do, while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or nitya-baddha consciousness.

This cloud covering is all we are aware off because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover therefore, we are nitya-baddha.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity.

Therefore our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires.

Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna.

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

The Appearance Day of Srila Narottama das Thakura

Bali, Indonesia

February 22, 1997,

Sometimes Swamiji has written one thing in his books and sometimes he has written something opposite to that. But this should be reconciled. Like he has told that the jiva comes from Goloka Vrndavana. And sometimes he has told that any jiva cannot fall from Goloka Vrndavana; it will never be like so. Here we have seen that there are some contradictions. What should we try to follow? Don’t try to follow him by your own intelligence! Don’t! You should go on reading the books. What conclusion has he made? And that conclusion should be according to Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisidhhanta Saraswati Prabhupada. Any opinion that he is given on this, if it is resembling these Goswamis then you should accept that this is Swamiji’s will on this (siddhanta). Otherwise you will an be offender, offense will come. How we can reconcile that he has told that the jiva has fallen from Goloka? Actually he has told this for beginners and it is right to tell that. For beginners, they cannot take in their minds all these higher things. So at that time it was useless to try to tell them such big siddhanta. Like any young boy is weeping and asking where is the moon?" Where is the moon? I can’t find the moon!" "Oh, look the moon is here on the tree branch." It is not on the tree branch, but no philosophy is applicable here. You don’t give any philosophy to a little boy. He will not understand. Oh, the moon is on this branch of the tree? Yes, this is correct. But when he is grown and it is time for higher knowledge we will tell, ”No, no Chandra, the moon is not on the tree.” So when they will be qualified, they will know all these things and then they will read Srila Jiva Goswami, Srila Rupa Goswami and Srila Sanatana Goswami and see that, “Oh Swamiji has told everything in his books, everything is here”! He told all these other things for general persons in the beginning, but his own conclusion is this.” Those who have gone to Goloka Vrndavana and they are tasting rasa there, they are liberated from this world, or there are some kaya vyuha manifestations of Radhika or Baladeva Prabhu, nitya-siddha and tasting there, there is no Maha Maya there, only Yoga Maya is there then no bad thing will come in their heart. Always tasting, tasting, so how can he fall? Swamiji has told it, so many times not (that anyone falls from Vaikuntha), and I can show it to you, and all others (acaryas) have also told this. So don’t be in confusion! And you should not make any confusion (amongst others). So he has told, “you should not read any book that I have not written”. But why has he told this? Because first you must become qualified in these things and then you can go to the original books. If you go to the original literatures prematurely you will become confused and lose everything. So we have to reconcile all these things. So he has told all these things and reconciled them in his books. We will have to hear from any mahabhagavat, yaha bhagavat bada vaisnavera sthane, then you will know all these things. So there is nothing really contradictory in the books of Swamiji, but it is for so many different grades of devotees. In the Bhagavatam some times it is told that the world is false. But the world is not false but rather temporary. That we are making all these relationships and thinking, “Oh he is my father, she is my mother, I am this body, this is false. So we are creating this world by making all these relationships based on the body and this is illusory, this is what is false. The sun, the moon, the pastimes of Krsna and Rama are not false. So you must reconcile all these things, but it will not be possible unless you are associating with a higher class of Vaisnava. Otherwise you cannot.

[Kulapavana]

 

this entire conversation is really based on our entrance into Vaikuntha or Goloka (the eternal present) If the 'present' is eternal, it means we have always been there and have only imagined we are not there.

 

You have a very peculiar understanding of the words "eternal" and "present". Just because in Vaikuntha there is no passage of time as we know it here, that does not mean you are not really here in the material world. There is ZERO connection between the two. You are just using the "its inconcievable!" option to prop up your theory which makes no logical or shastric sense whatsoever. Using such "arguments" you can justify any nonsense you want. Here is an example:

 

"As soon as we distinguish here is a pure devotee, here is a non-pure

devotee, that means I am a nonsense. Why you only want to be in the

spiritual sky with Siddhasvarupa? Why not all? If Siddhasvarupa can go,

why not everyone? Siddhasvarupa will go, you will go, Syamasundara will

go, all others will go. We will have another ISKCON there."

 

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 14 December 1972)

 

That of course means that Iskcon is there all the time, and that it merely descends here to Mrityu-loka, perhaps once in a day of Brahma?

 

C'mon, lets come up with come really bizzare theory based on this statement... after all, it must be true because Prabhupada said it, right?

[Sarva gattah]

ISKCON is already there in Goloka and has always been there just like Lord Caitanya is always there in 'the eternal present' we simply have to wake up from this dream world to realize the truth

 

In all due respects, I have never accepted Narayana Maharaj's authority on this subject. He has written many wonderful Vaishavism articles, he was a very nice devotee when I meet him in 1978, I listened to many of his classes as well as Sridar Maharaj who I have great respect for,

 

However, both have miss-understood the real truth behind the mystery of how the baddha jiva came to the material world many millions of years ago and how our nitya siddha body is actually eternally in Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that no jiva soul originates from the dormant aspect of the Brahmajyoti. One can go there, but first they must come down from Vaikuntha. Both Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj have not understood this fact

 

It is pointless quoting Narayana Maharaj or Sridar Maharaj on this subject only, I know exactly what they believe and according to Srila Prabhupada they are both wrong when it comes to correctly understand the origin of the jiva soul.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

From Alachua, USA, May 23, 2001

A very small child did not want to go to school, but his father and mother forcibly took him in the car and drove him there. Even though he was weeping, they put that baby on the teacher's lap by force, and left him there. Throughout the day he was weeping, but his teacher was very merciful and very sweet to him. His teacher gave him a brightly colored book, and on the first page he saw so many pictures. He said, "A-apple, B-ball. Oh, see the football! C-cat, D-dog." The boy became very happy. Then the teacher asked him, "Can you read?Yes, A-apple." In this way he began, and his teacher praised him, "Oh, you are now a good student. You have read everything completely." The teacher also brought him an apple and said, "You can have this." Thus the boy became very happy, and the next day he was asking his mother, "When will I go to school?" After some days the child had to learn some difficult things, and when he could not learn, his teacher twisted his ear. He then became puzzled. The guru also acts like this. Somehow, even though you are fully unqualified, you should enter the school of diksa. If you do enter, you will see that our goal is very far away, but by those beginners' practices we can never achieve our goal. In the beginning the guru never tells the full reality. When does he tell him? He does so when the disciple is more advanced and he can tolerate the chastising of gurudeva and the chastising of the Vaisnavas. Then the disciple can realize something, and then the guru can tell him something. What will he tell him? He will reject his disciple's bad habits, saying, "This is not good. You should be like this."

[Sarva gattah]

Shakti-Fan that is a very nice and true story told by Narayana Maharaj. What I am writting here is not coming from me, its coming from my Spiritual Master His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

I don't know why I am compelled and being used to push this issue, but I believe my Siritual Master does, its basically all I write about.

 

In the beginning of this subject, for me at least, I did not even Know the correct sanskrit words to use as earlier writtings reveal, as also found around the web, I tried to explain the best way I could at what was revealed to me by Srila Prabhupada. I therefore began studing Prabhupadas books, lectures, letters to look for correct 'words' to explain.

 

Again I do not know why. All I know is that I feel Prabhupada very close to my heart

 

Maybe because very few where defending Prabhupadas stance on this issue due ISKCON's no open comment policy, that has allowed thousands to wrongly believe we have been born from the dormant aspect of the Brahmajyoti as found all over the web.

 

Maybe the rascal fool that I am, that has always been good with the media, is simply being used by Prabhupada to remind the devotee, all the devotees and non devotees that we have all come down from Goloka some millions of years ago.

 

In order to counteract the overwhelming nonsense found on the web that wrongly tells us we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and that we have never been to Goloka.

 

Even on this thread Prabhupada's correct teachings on this subject is out numbered 10 to 1. Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that no jiva soul originates from the dormant aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

 

One can go there, but first they must come down from Vaikuntha first. Both Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj have not understood this fact.

 

This is the reasons why this subject has to be always humbly kept alive in the way Prabhupada has taught us so we can again regain memory of our original old consciousness (nitya-siddha body)

 

Hare Krsna.

[CCC]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada Bhagavad Gita Introduction

The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky.

 

 

Uddhava Gita with commentary and Purport of Previous Acaryas

 

The Supreme Lord said: My dear Uddhava, the three modes of material nature work under My control, sometimes designating the living entities as conditioned and sometimes granting them liberation. Truthfully, the living entities are never really conditioned or liberated, just as I remain unchanged as the Supreme Absolute Truth, the master of all potencies.

 

 

 

 

COMMENTARY (Srila Vishvanatha Cackravarti Thakur)

 

 

In this chapter, the Lord describes to Uddhava characteristics of conditioned and liberated souls, the symptoms by which one can recognize saintly persons, and the limbs of devotional service. The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the materal body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream. Of course, materal nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter.

 

PURPORT (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati)

 

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of all potencies. It is only by speculation that the ignorant conditioned souls imagine that the Lord is devoid of variegatedness. Although the living entity is part and parcel of the Lord’s superior potency, he now identifies with the inferior potency of the Lord and thus experiences conditional life. The living entity is liberated when contacts the superior potency of the Lord, which has three divisions— hlädiné, or spiritual pleasure; sandhiné, or eternal existence; and saàvit, or all-pervading knowledge. The Lord’s existence is sac-cid-änanda and He never becomes forgetful. The living entities, however being minute in quantity, are sometimes conditioned and sometimes liberated.

The neutral state of the three modes of material nature is called

pradhäna. When the three modes of material nature interact, they compete for control over the tiny living entities, thus creating a variety of manifestations. When the conditioned soul desires to free himself from the entanglements caused by the modes of material nature, he must take to the devotional service of the Lord, which can elevate him to the spiritual world. In the spiritual sky, everyone possesses spiritual bodies that are not subject to change. In such a liberated state of existence, there is no possibility of being influenced by the three modes of material nature. After understanding one’s eternal nature, one can see that he was never really a part of this material world. On the spiritual platform, there is no existence of the conception of liberation and bondage. Being the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, one should use his minute independence to engage in the Lord’s devotional service and thus revive his original consciousness, which is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. In such a state, there is no chance of once again falling into illusion.

[Beggar]

When it comes down to it, who are we going to listen to? Nobody exists in a sterile environment and we are all influenced by different minds and intelligences that we associate with in books, person, websites and so on. Philosophers question whether any of us ever think an original thought. So the principle of guru is everywhere and at all times. Are we going to listen to neophyte devotees, no matter what color is their cloth who fall down continuously? Will we let those persons affect our thoughts? Or should we seek out those who have been stalwarts in the line for decades upon decades? Generally those stalwarts are not in ISKCON circles, this is just the plain fact. No matter what is our personal position, we will choose to listen to those stalwarts steeped in the siddhanta for a long, long time. We know by now what is their view of Srila Prabhupada's teachings, how they see his transcendental nature from their own transcendental nature, not skewed by a secret obsession of lusty thoughts but rather an obsession with the pastimes of Krsna. We will choose those who are most addicted to Krsna to understand that person who was so addicted to Krsna that he risked everything at a later age and came with only a few rupees to America to give Krsna Consciousness to all. We will not be fooled again.

[Sarva gattah]

My understaning of this has not changed since 1972.

 

When I eventually did go on the web, most of what I found was simply incorrect and was completely contary to the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Many innocent devotees ARE being miss lead by such mundane articles as 'Not even the leaves fall from Vaikuntha', 'Inconceivable topics - ORIGIN of the JIVA - Krsna Talk 54' and the Murwillumbah lecture by Narayana Maharaj, The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall '.

 

Fortunately the truth is there for those who want it

 

Srila Prabhupada – "We have all foolishly come to this material world from the wonderful pastimes of Lord Caitanya and Krsna, and now you have come back, when you eventually go back home back to Godhead, you will understand all this" Sydney Temple Febuary 1973

 

 

 

On learning that the material world is not our real home, we naturally wonder, “How did we get here?” by Jayadvaita Swami from Back to Godhead, May-June 1993

 

 

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen?

In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the Brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it.

As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the Brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, three generations before Srila Prabhupada in the line of spiritual teachers, put it this way: “Please avoid the misleading question ‘When were these jivas [living beings] created and enthralled?’

The Mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas, and you cannot, therefore, employ Mayik chronology in matters like these.”

“The Relationship is Eternal”

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it.

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated,

 

tad dure tad v antike:

 

‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya.

 

So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.

 

The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way:

 

“We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.”

 

But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived.

 

“So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships.

 

This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears.

 

“After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.” by Jayadvaita Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada emphasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because it is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity as their secondary non Krishna Conscious jiva-baddha state.

Once we awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness, which is eternally in Goloka as nitya-siddha, the dream-like mayik existence created by our baddha-jiva consciousness will dissolve like the sunlight dissipates the darkness.

[Kulapavana]

 

ISKCON is already there in Goloka and has always been there just like Lord Caitanya is always there in 'the eternal present' we simply have to wake up from this dream world to realize the truth

 

this is pure sentiment with zero basis in shastra. you don't even understand what Prabhupada actually tried to convey to Tusta in that letter. you are still a little child when it comes to understanding these matters, still wrapped up in your favourite fairy tales.

 

Iskcon has turned into sentimental apasampradaya because the teaching of the acharyas are interpreted by vaishyas and sudras.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

“The Relationship is Eternal” by Jayadvaita Swami

 

 

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall.

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya.

So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.

The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way:

“We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.”

But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived.

“So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships.

This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears.

“After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.” by Jayadvaita Swami

[Kulapavana]

 

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

many (actually MOST) of the letters attributed to Prabhupada were in fact written by his secretaries and were at best merely signed by him (cometimes the signatures were stamped or forged). look at the early Prabhupada letters (pre 1968) to see how Prabhupada really writes (language). All Prabhupada letters should be scientifically analyzed to determine if Prabhupada actually wrote them before they can be seen as any kind of evidence.

[bhaktajan]

 

this is pure sentiment with zero basis in shastra. you don't even understand what Prabhupada actually tried to convey to Tusta in that letter. you are still a little child when it comes to understanding these matters, still wrapped up in your favourite fairy tales.

 

Iskcon has turned into sentimental apasampradaya because the teaching of the acharyas are interpreted by vaishyas and sudras.

 

Kulapavana,

because because because.

 

You must awaken to your calling, Prabhu.

The choir is calling you to sing out the next refrain: You are a sage, you know it and you must nurture it.

Start your math, you have the requisite experience and enthusiasm.

Any misgivings you have will be vanquished by following your bliss and becoming self-actualized: Open your own Yoga-ashram and take the helm.

There are so many new comers for you to welcome to the Vedas etc.

 

Best wishes to your destiny to be an old wise guru 'who sees the truth'.

 

ys,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: remember the self-empowerment slogan: "A mana-buddhi is a terrible thing to waste"

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 16, 2002

[syamarani dasi] Someone wrote Prabhupada a letter and asked, "Did we ever see Krsna?" Prabhupada replied, "Yes, we saw Krsna, just as the child was with the father before coming out of the mother's womb."

["Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father." (Letter to Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970)]

In other words, he was saying that we never saw Krsna. We were with Krsna because we came from Krsna ö from His tatastha-sakti. That person who came out of his mother's womb never actually associated with the father previously. Later on he meets his father.

[Gokula dasa:] Actually, within ISKCON there was two or three

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I know. I have read them. Srila Swami Maharaja sometimes gave baby food to babies. When I give a baby medicine like quinine, I tell him, "Baby, baby, it is very sweet." I'm telling him something that is not true so that I can give him the medicine. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja has written to someone who was very low in bhakti. A letter cannot always be proof. What Srila Swami Maharaja has written in Caitanya-caritamrta and in his Gita and Bhagavata explanation is authentic. These are proofs. He can write something else for a little baby, but it is not proof.

[Gokula dasa:] Srila Gour-Govinda Maharaja said that he was doing it to encourage them. Otherwise

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes, certainly. Someone may say that Citraketu Maharaja fell down, and this is proof that the jiva fell from Goloka. Actually, however, he has never fallen down. He is a liberated soul. He came to see his friend, Sankara Mahadeva, when Sankara was sitting naked with the very beautiful Uma Parvati on His lap. Citraketu began joking with him, because a friend can joke with another friend when both on the same level. Citraketu Maharaja was not less than Sankara. He was Sankara's god-brother, and fully liberated. He told him, "What are you doing? You're quite naked, and at the same time you're taking this beautiful young lady on your lap. What will everyone think?" He was laughing, and Sankara was also smiling, but Parvati could not tolerate his joking statements. She at once cursed him, saying, "You should become a demon."

Sankara became upset and told Parvati, "You have done wrong. He is a liberated soul. Whether he is in this world, or here or there, he will be a devotee. He cannot be transformed at all. He has the power to resist your curse, but see how humble he is; because he is a Vaisnava. He is beyond hankering and lamentation, and therefore he tolerated your words and accepted your curse. If he wished, he could have also cursed you; but he did not do so."

Citraketu Maharaja willingly came to establish this truth ö that whether a devotee is in this world or in hell, he will glorify his Prabhu and give instructions to all to serve Krsna. It was for this reason that, for a very short time, he became the demon Vrtrasura. When he was in the body of that demon, his enemy, Indra, was in great wonder, thinking, "How can I kill him? He's telling me, 'Kill me. I cannot serve my Prabhu in this body. So kill me,' but I cannot." Even Indra's thunderbolt failed.

Vrtrasura prayed:

ajata-paksa iva mataram khagah

stanyam yatha vatsatarah ksudh-artah

priyam priyeva vyusitam visanna

mano 'ravindaksa didrksate tvam

["O lotus-eyed Lord, as baby birds that have not yet developed their wings always look for their mother to return and feed them, as small calves tied with ropes await anxiously the time of milking, when they will be allowed to drink the milk of their mothers, or as a morose wife whose husband is away from home always longs for him to return so that she can satisfy him in all respects, I always yearn for the opportunity to render direct service unto You." (SB 6.11.26)]

This is a highly elevated verse. Here, Vrtrasura's mood to serve Krsna is like that of the gopis. By this prayer, Srila Vyasadeva and Sukadeva Gosvami have glorified the love and affection of gopis. So Citraketu Maharaja did not fall from Goloka Vrndavana. He came only to establish these truths.

When Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya. They remained there in Vaikuntha and their manifestations came here to act like demons. Jaya and Vijaya can have so many forms, just as Yasoda has unlimited forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes, in each universe there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana. We cannot imagine this. Brahma has said that a person may be able to count the stars in the sky and the sands on the earth, but he will not be able to glorify the sweet pastimes of Krsna.

It is absurd to think that any jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana. Any liberated soul can come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious souls.

[Kulapavana]

 

Kulapavana,

because because because.

 

You must awaken to your calling, Prabhu.

The choir is calling you to sing out the next refrain: You are a sage, you know it and you must nurture it.

Start your math, you have the requisite experience and enthusiasm.

 

 

I have opened preaching centers and farms before, certainly I can do it again. I did it not for my own glorification, but for glorification of Krsna. over the years I have seen many Iskcon leaders - some were good, some were bad. The idea is to keep the good ones, and let the bad ones go back to washing pots. Just like there are terrible "managers" in Iskcon, there are also terrible "brahmanas".

 

Sudras were not allowed to study shastras on their own, because they make a total mess of their siddhanta. Vaishyas are not much better. Surely a bright lad like yourself can understand this simple point. Better have them wash pots and take care of the fields and cows than try to develop their own theories as to what shastras say.

 

I may not agree with everything Narayana Maharaja says but he has more sense and wisdom then 90% of Iskcon gurus put together, and his take on the fall issue is 100% shastric and tradition based.

 

Sudras playing with shastric conclusions are much more dangerous than little children playing with matches. A good part of Prabhupada's legacy has already been ruined by his foolish disciples.

 

I don't need my own "matha" to have roof over my head and a bowl of soup. Krsna blessed me with enough resources in this life. My concern is for what is left from Srila Prabhupada's legacy, including the temples and farms I helped to place in that legacy.

[Beggar]

 

Sudras playing with shastric conclusions are much more dangerous than little children playing with matches. A good part of Prabhupada's legacy has already been ruined by his foolish disciples.

 

 

If the shoe fits wear it! (just not in the temple room)

[CCC]

I know in the core of my heart that the impersonalist origin and fall down of the soul is not the final true or is not like the neo-gurus explain, and when I read such things cause me pain.

 

I think that Devotees who accept the conclusion that the jiva has never seen Krsna their lives are very embittered and become guru fanaticals and idolatrous, and I know this by facts, they enter in a hole and wants that all people enter with them. I would like to open a topic talking about what is the practical effect of such theories.

 

Two days ago a person asked to a guru how the jiva fall and why we are here? this guru instead of saying what Srila Prabhupada taught (we were rebellious, etc) , explain him the impersonal origin of the jiva and this person didn't accept this conclusion, I saw his face after the conversation and was like this .

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada Bhagavad Gita Introduction

The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky.

 

 

Uddhava Gita with commentary and Purport of Previous Acaryas

 

The Supreme Lord said: My dear Uddhava, the three modes of material nature work under My control, sometimes designating the living entities as conditioned and sometimes granting them liberation. Truthfully, the living entities are never really conditioned or liberated, just as I remain unchanged as the Supreme Absolute Truth, the master of all potencies.

 

 

 

 

COMMENTARY (Srila Vishvanatha Cackravarti Thakur)

 

 

In this chapter, the Lord describes to Uddhava characteristics of conditioned and liberated souls, the symptoms by which one can recognize saintly persons, and the limbs of devotional service. The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the materal body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream. Of course, materal nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter.

 

PURPORT (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati)

 

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of all potencies. It is only by speculation that the ignorant conditioned souls imagine that the Lord is devoid of variegatedness. Although the living entity is part and parcel of the Lord’s superior potency, he now identifies with the inferior potency of the Lord and thus experiences conditional life. The living entity is liberated when contacts the superior potency of the Lord, which has three divisions— hlädiné, or spiritual pleasure; sandhiné, or eternal existence; and saàvit, or all-pervading knowledge. The Lord’s existence is sac-cid-änanda and He never becomes forgetful. The living entities, however being minute in quantity, are sometimes conditioned and sometimes liberated.

The neutral state of the three modes of material nature is called

pradhäna. When the three modes of material nature interact, they compete for control over the tiny living entities, thus creating a variety of manifestations. When the conditioned soul desires to free himself from the entanglements caused by the modes of material nature, he must take to the devotional service of the Lord, which can elevate him to the spiritual world. In the spiritual sky, everyone possesses spiritual bodies that are not subject to change. In such a liberated state of existence, there is no possibility of being influenced by the three modes of material nature. After understanding one’s eternal nature, one can see that he was never really a part of this material world. On the spiritual platform, there is no existence of the conception of liberation and bondage. Being the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, one should use his minute independence to engage in the Lord’s devotional service and thus revive his original consciousness, which is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. In such a state, there is no chance of once again falling into illusion.