No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Beggar]

 

I know in the core of my heart that the impersonalist origin and fall down of the soul is not the final true or is not like the neo-gurus explain, and when I read such things cause me pain.

Perhaps you have had a vision of Krsna in a previous life while practicing bhakti, it is possible.

1. Since Krsna is the the cause of all causes then nothing in the creation

has an impersonal origin, including Krsna's effulgence. The only reason

that Srila Prabhupada refers to the brahmajyoti as impersonal is that

there is no possibility of active devotional service to the Lord there.

There is no Sanskrit word which is literally translated "impersonal

brahmajyoti". Brahmajyoti is literally the light of brahman.

 

2. Srila Jiva Goswami, Srila Rupa Goswami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati are not "neo-gurus". Srila Prabhupada's

godbrother, Srila Sridhar Maharaj who joined the Gaudiya Math in 1922

is not a neo-guru. Sripad Narayana Maharaj who joined with his guru in

1946 is not a neo-guru. It is Sarva gattah's apasiddhanta that is "neo"!

[Kulapavana]

 

I know in the core of my heart that the impersonalist origin and fall down of the soul is not the final true or is not like the neo-gurus explain, and when I read such things cause me pain.

 

there is nothing "impersonal" in the fall of jiva from the brahmajyoti - you, the person, made a free and personal choice to swim towards the material bank of the Viraja River when you wanted to taste something other than your existence in the brahmajyoti. what is impersonal about that? you make choices like that all the time now - are you not a person now? strip away the false ego and you are exactly the same person you were in the brahmajyoti.

[CCC]

 

Perhaps you have had a vision of Krsna in a previous life while practicing bhakti, it is possible.

1. Since Krsna is the the cause of all causes then nothing in the creation

has an impersonal origin, including Krsna's effulgence. The only reason

that Srila Prabhupada refers to the brahmajyoti as impersonal is that

there is no possibility of active devotional service to the Lord there.

There is no Sanskrit word which is literally translated "impersonal

brahmajyoti". Brahmajyoti is literally the light of brahman.

 

2. Srila Jiva Goswami, Srila Rupa Goswami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati are not "neo-gurus". Srila Prabhupada's

godbrother, Srila Sridhar Maharaj who joined the Gaudiya Math in 1922

is not a neo-guru. Sripad Narayana Maharaj who joined with his guru in

1946 is not a neo-guru. It is Sarva gattah's apasiddhanta that is

"neo"!

 

Thanks,

 

when I talk about neo gurus I am talking about post Srila Prabhupada, they started this issue

[Beggar]

 

I know in the core of my heart that the impersonalist origin and fall down of the soul is not the final true

 

there is nothing "impersonal" in the fall of jiva from the brahmajyoti - you, the person, made a free and personal choice to swim towards the material bank of the Viraja River when you wanted to taste something other than your existence in the brahmajyoti. what is impersonal about that? you make choices like that all the time now - are you not a person now? strip away the false ego and you are exactly the same person you were in the brahmajyoti.

 

1. Since Krsna is the the cause of all causes then nothing in the creation has an impersonal origin, including Krsna's effulgence. The only reason that Srila Prabhupada refers to the brahmajyoti as impersonal is that there is no possibility of active devotional service to the Lord there.There is no Sanskrit word which is literally translated "impersonal brahmajyoti". Brahmajyoti is literally the light of brahman.

 

How about a real, substantial response from CCC about "there is nothing "impersonal" in the fall of jiva from the brahmajyoti" and "The only reason

that Srila Prabhupada refers to the brahmajyoti as impersonal is that

there is no possibility of active devotional service to the Lord there."

Or is it that you cannot rebutt the truth?

[Kulapavana]

actually, Prabhupada's use of the word "impersonal" refers to the sanskrit word "nirvisesa" - see here: http://vedabase.net/n/nirvisesa

 

the word nirvisesa means without visesa, or differentiation.

 

sure you can say that it means "without differentiation between persons", or "impersonal", but it simply means that there is no differentiation between various persons, that they are all the same. Not that there is NO-persons there. just like we can say "he has no personality". that means he has no distinctively unique personality, and not that he is NOT a person.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

 

 

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Well on the way, head in a cloud

The man of a thousand voices talking percetly loud

But nobody ever hears him

Or the sound he appears to make

And he never seems to notice

But the fool on the hill

Sees the sun going down

And the eyes in his head

See the world spinning around

 

 

And nobody seems to like him

They can tell what he wants to do

And he never shows his feelings

But the fool on the hill

Sees the sun going down

And the eyes in his head

See the world spinning around

 

 

He never listen to them

He knows that they're the fools

They don't like him

The fool on the hill

Sees the sun going down

And the eyes in his head

See the world spinning around

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I know. I have read them. Srila Swami Maharaja sometimes gave baby food to babies. When I give a baby medicine like quinine, I tell him, "Baby, baby, it is very sweet." I'm telling him something that is not true so that I can give him the medicine. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja has written to someone who was very low in bhakti. A letter cannot always be proof. What Srila Swami Maharaja has written in Caitanya-caritamrta and in his Gita and Bhagavata explanation is authentic. These are proofs. He can write something else for a little baby, but it is not proof.

Same thing with a lecture. One has to wonder why there are no statements like this (quoted by Sarva gattah) in the books of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada? Could it just be that Srila Narayana Maharaja is correct and Sarva gatah is wrong?

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

In all due respects, I have never accepted Narayana Maharaj's authority on this subject. He has written many wonderful Vaishavism articles, he was a very nice devotee when I meet him in 1978, I listened to many of his classes as well as Sridar Maharaj who I have great respect for,

 

However, both have miss-understood the real truth behind the mystery of how the baddha jiva came to the material world many millions of years ago and how our nitya siddha body is actually eternally in Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that no jiva soul originates from the dormant aspect of the Brahmajyoti. One can go there, but first they must come down from Vaikuntha. Both Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj have not understood this fact

 

It is pointless quoting Narayana Maharaj or Sridar Maharaj on this subject only, I know exactly what they believe and speculate however, according to Srila Prabhupada they are both wrong when it comes to correctly understanding the origin of the jiva soul.

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada in black and Sarva gattah in red.

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

When Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya. They remained there in Vaikuntha and their manifestations came here to act like demons. Jaya and Vijaya can have so many forms, just as Yasoda has unlimited forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes, in each universe there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana. We cannot imagine this. Brahma has said that a person may be able to count the stars in the sky and the sands on the earth, but he will not be able to glorify the sweet pastimes of Krsna.

 

It is absurd to think that any jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana. Any liberated soul can come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious souls.

Here (in blue) is the part of the siddhanta previously uknown to the elementary school class that sends a knock out blow to their apasiddhanta. They place the jivas who descend to assist Krsna's pastimes or lila in the same position as the fallen jivas. When Srila Prabhupada said that the baddha jivas are already liberated it was part of the elementary education but also in a specific context. To apply it to every aspect of the siddhanta is a big mistake. The conditioned souls do not have a temporary swarupa or form here in the material world and an eternal form back in the Vaikunthas as did Jaya and Vijaya.

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada with Gauragopala dasa in background playing mrdanga drum, 1974 Rathayatra Melbourne Australia

PHOTO by satsvarupa Goswami

 

 

 

 

As has already been clearly revealed by the Guru Sadhu and shastra, all living entities originally came down from Vaikuntha, it is a mistake to believe they had an impersonal origin and came from the dormant Brahmajyoti,

 

 

Those who believe in an impersonalism origin, or that we emerge from the Brahman dormant effulgence, have misunderstood shastra and are reading various versions and translations that do not give the correct picture of how we all originate from Goloka

 

 

 

 

The marginal living entity or jiva soul is beginningless and endless so we certainly do NOT fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, nor are their new souls being created.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

 

 

 

 

George Harrison - "Swamiji, can you tell us why we're in this material contamination? Why is is that the spirit soul has material contamination"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- "Just like many boys gives up the association of the parents and he wants to enjoy this material world in his own way, without the sanction of the father and mother. He has got the right. Similarly, although we are all sons of God, or Krsna, we have got the independence to give up His company and enjoy this material world. That is contamination". Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1971 710730SB.LON

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- “We have given up the company of Krsna, and we wanted to be happy in this material world;Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

Srila Prabhupada- “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment”. Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Srila Prabhupada- "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Srimad Bhagavayam – “The brahmana says My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.” Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53

From the Fourth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, where a brahmana gives instruction to Queen Vaidarbhi after the death of her husband.

It is clear from this text that the original home of the living entity is Goloka

The brahmana says to Vaidarbhi:

 

 

 

"Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man laying there? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body.

 

Don't you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me. \

 

My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend?

 

Unfortunately, you gave up My Company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Manasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home." (SB 4.28.52-54)

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The Jiva may possess one of two states. He may be either in the conditioned state nitya-baddha) or in the pure spiritual state (nitya-siddha).

 

 

 

In respect of his spiritual function the Jiva is great, undivided, whole, pure and eternal. As long as the Jiva retains his pure spiritual condition, he exhibits his spiritual function in his uneclipsed bodily form.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When the Jiva is contaminated by relationship with the eclipsing potency (Maya) only then, by reason of the perversion of his proper function, he is not fully pure and feels helpless and afflicted with mundane pleasure and pain.

 

 

 

 

 

The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the Jiva’s loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krishna." Jaiva Dharma p.12.

"In his true nature the jiva is the devoted servant of Krishna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs due to their seeking after their own pleasure, turned away from Krishna and as such, became punishable." Jaiva Dharma p. 240

Srila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Srila Prabhupada Originally the living entity is a spiritual being, but when he actually desires to enjoy this material world, he comes down to the material creation.

 

 

 

 

From this verse we can understand that the living entity first accepts a body that is human in form, but gradually, due to his degraded activities, he falls into lower forms of life into the animal, plant and aquatic forms.

 

 

 

 

By the gradual process of evolution, the living entity again attains the body of a human being and is given another chance to get out of the process of transmigration.

 

 

 

 

If he again misses his chance in the human form to understand his position, he is again placed in the cycle of birth and death in various types of bodies. Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53

 

 

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - ""The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world.

 

 

 

 

In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world.

 

 

 

 

However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28 54.

 

 

[Beggar]

Sarva gattah again puts forth a slew of apparently contradictory statements by Srila Prabhupada like the following that has no reference:

 

 

"The Jiva may possess one of two states. He may be either in the conditioned state nitya-baddha) or in the pure spiritual state (nityera-siddha)"

Yet he constantly quotes statements like,

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

and

Srila Prabhupada - "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

This is intellectually dishonest. When questioned on the issue of origin of the jiva he says that the jiva falls from Goloka, when confronted on that he bobs an weaves and claims that we are still in Goloka. In other words, constantly changing the subject without really dealing with the issues. When he needs to, he quotes that the jiva is never really nitya-baddha but rather nitya-siddha. And now he posts something completely contradictory to try to save face.

[Vedesu]

 

I know in the core of my heart....

Anyone on both sides can say this due to their individual conditioning and sentiment. But that is not the criteria when debating spiritual topics. Guru, Sastra, Sadhu is the standard. Along with perhaps a healthy dose of logic, common sense, and objectivity. As well as the ability to debate the points which are being made in a timely and straightforward manner. I see very little of these things happening from the fall/dreamer side of the "debate."

[Kulapavana]

 

actually, Prabhupada's use of the word "impersonal" refers to the sanskrit word "nirvisesa" - see here: http://vedabase.net/n/nirvisesa

 

the word nirvisesa means without visesa, or differentiation.

 

sure you can say that it means "without differentiation between persons", or "impersonal", but it simply means that there is no differentiation between various persons, that they are all the same. Not that there is NO-persons there. just like we can say "he has no personality". that means he has no distinctively unique personality, and not that he is NOT a person.

 

one more comment to this point:

 

in the spiritual world EVERYTHING IS A PERSON - there is NOTHING but persons there. In the brahmajyoti effulgence enveloping spiritual planets every particle of light IS A PERSON. thus the term "impersonal" brahmajyoti has no direct sense. only in the sense of nirvisesa (absence of differentiation between each person forming the rays of brahmajyoti) this term is not misleading.

 

so to say that "fall from brahmajyoti" is an impersonal concept is a complete lie, meant to mislead and manipulate people by giving a bad name to a concept we oppose. it is a completely dishonest approach.

 

just like calling all impersonalists "mayavadis", or calling devotees who think differently than us "sahajiyas"... these are just cheap tricks and shameless propaganda.

[Beggar]

 

so to say that "fall from brahmajyoti" is an impersonal concept is a complete lie, meant to mislead and manipulate people by giving a bad name to a concept we oppose. it is a completely dishonest approach.

 

This is why we have been warned that this "origin in Goloka" theory will lead to offenses. The concept of the tatastha origins of the jiva is coming from the previous acaryas not so-called "neo-gurus". The Goloka Origin people want to hide behind their so-called loyalty to Srila Prabhupada thereby inferring that the other side on this issue is somehow disloyal. Then without any basis they constantly claim that the other side is putting forth that the jiva soul has impersonal origins. This is done by using the catch-phrase, "impersonal brahmajyoti" in the wrong context, in a way that Srila Prabhupada never employed. Srila Sridhar Maharaj said in this context, "the lower section is coming to oppose the higher section". The higher section being the previous acaryas.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

The marginal living entity or jiva soul is beginningless and endless so we certainly do NOT fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, nor are their new souls being created

Srila Prabhupada- "If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead." Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada- "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

"In his true nature the jiva is the devoted servant of Krishna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs due to their seeking after their own pleasure, turned away from Krishna and as such, became punishable." Jaiva Dharma p. 240

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[gHari]

I don't get it. Why should it affect me at all whether I came from here or there or just appeared in the womb? Let's look at the psychology behind the big preaching hoax.

[Sarva gattah]

 

I don't get it. Why should it affect me at all whether I came from here or there or just appeared in the womb? Let's look at the psychology behind the big preaching hoax.

 

It is natural to ask, why am I here, where did I come from, and where am I going.

 

Some of us are just not going to tolerate those who claim we came from the dormant Brahmajyoti, or a plain sheet of consciousness where other jivas are being constantly generated. The fact is we have all come down from Vaikuntha many millions of years ago as Srila Prabhupada tells us

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

"The Jiva may possess one of two states. He may be either in the conditioned or dream state (nitya-baddha) or in the pure spiritual state (nitya-siddha).

The pure state or nitya siddha is eternally present in Vaikuntha or Goloka and never falls down as the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam tells us

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

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[Gaurhari]

 

I don't get it. Why should it affect me at all whether I came from here or there or just appeared in the womb? Let's look at the psychology behind the big preaching hoax.

 

Because proper understanding of siddhanta is important in the progress of one's Krsna consciousness. As stated in Chaitanya Charitamrita(Adi 2.117):

 

siddhanta baliya citte na kara alasa

iha hai-te krishne lage sudridha manasa

TRANSLATION

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krishna.

Furthermore, as stated by HH BG Narasingha Maharaj:

If one wants to argue that the jiva falls down to this material world from eternal lila with Krishna in the spiritual world, then that is tantamount to Mayavada philosophy because that suggests the fallibility of the Vaikuntha plane. The Vaishnava acharyas never admit to even a remote chance of fallibility in Vaikuntha what to speak of Goloka Vrindavana.

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Sarva-gattah is quoting Srila Prabhupada here because he thinks that this analogy of a person dreaming that he is being eaten by a tiger is unique and supports his position that the soul originated in Goloka and that it is dreaming from there in it's full swaupa it's material existence. The analogy is actually traditional amongst Vaisnavas and Advaitans and shows how the soul is in a sense dreaming its material existence. Everyone on all sides of this issue accepts this but for some reason he cannot see that.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English, the very clear fact, that we all originate from Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Sarva gattah's interpretation of this statement by Srila Prabhupada is very indirect and secondary. In fact if his interpretation were true then many, many readers would be mislead by the above statement. Srila Prabhupada told and wrote many times, "read my books". Have you ever seen a statement where he wrote or said that we should look at his books in relation to his lectures, walks and letters? Of course there is a grey area because books such as "The Science of Self Realization" are compiled from lectures and conversations. So we may assume that sastric books with the Bhaktivedanta Purports are the most authoritative. If this is true then the statement that "no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha..." must be take literally or at face value. Also there is a hierarchy amongst the books with the Caitanya Caritamrta containing the most advanced and confidential tattvas and siddhantas. This is what Bhaktik was referring to last week. The sambandha jnana, (Sridhar Maharaj calls it "what is what")is explained by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Srila Sanatana Goswami who will then become the sambandha acarya.

 

From post #285:

 

 

Why?

 

Because Mahaprabhu taught Sanatan Goswami that souls emerge from Brahman and enter Goloka. This is the Teaching of Lord Chaitanya - not the dream/fall theory.

 

 

Have you studied the shastra?

 

Look at the teachings of Sri Chaitanyadeva to Sanatan Goswami in Chaitanya Charitamrta. There in that shastra you will find that Mahaprbhu explains, in the Atmarama verse chapter, that souls emerge from Brahman and enter the path of bhakti.

 

Scriptural evidence is totally in support of what Srila Sridhar Maharaj taught and there is no evidence in scripture at all that souls fall from Vaikuntha and become embroiled in Maya.

 

As Maharaj Yudhisthira said to Narad Muni "For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall into this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this." (SB 7.1.34)

 

 

 

Why can't people accept this? Because the fall theory is a NEW theory that was dreamed up rather recently. It is not what the Predecessor Acharyyas taught.

 

And the dreaming that we fall theory is an even NEWER theory that was dreamed up VERY recently and certainly is not what the predecessor acaryas taught.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has explained to us that the answer is the time factor and not the division of the self.

The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal Krishna Conscious bodily form or higher self of ones marginal identity

While the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.

It IS that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time.

These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada is actually telling us that Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time.

 

• The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna.

 

• The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is actively within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels so one can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva.

 

• Or is conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm and outside the active mahat-tattva, within an Impersonal inactive dormant jiva-baddha dreamless condition known as the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman, where an unlimited number of 'jiva-baddhas' remain in that dormant state that appears and expands (due to souls constanly being liberated from the mahat-tattva) as an individual collective of living light particles, not aware of past, present and future.

As already explained, Srila Prabhupada has told us that the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay.

 

Both are temporary conditions because the DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha.

The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuine identity perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada is clearly telling us that the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and is given material ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams a temporary reality.

However, they are subject to decay and are transitory.

 

Srila Prabhupada is telling us that at the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka in the eternal 'present' similtaneously.

Unfortunately even many devotees cannot understand this. At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand.

It depends on the devotee

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha.

Then why in the world would the Vaisnava scholars even use the terms nitya siddha and nitya baddha? If your theory was true then there would be no reason to use such terminology. When Srila Prabhupada was said that we are already nitya siddha, it was to make a particular point and that point was not the over-riding concept in Krsna Consciousness as you make it out to be. But then again I guess you have to choice since you have to completely ignore the common sense, plain and simple understanding of:

 

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

In the long run you will find very few customers for what you are selling. Most people are just too smart for that.

[gHari]

 

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya 22.107:

 

<center>

nitya-siddha kRSNa-prema ‘sAdhya' kabhu naya

zravaNAdi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

</center>

nitya-siddha--eternally established; kRSNa-prema--love of KRSNa; sAdhya--to be gained; kabhu--at any time; naya--not; zravaNa-Adi--by hearing, etc.; zuddha--purified; citte--in the heart; karaye udaya--awakens.

"Pure love for KRSNa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

 

 

It is the prema that is nitya-siddha, but what might be the implications of that?

[Shakti-Fan]

Jaiva Dharma

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Chapter Twenty Two

Prameya: Prayojana Tattva

 

It was Ekadasi, and the Vaisnavas were performing kirtana on the large raised platform beneath the Bakula tree in Srivasangana. Some were sighing heavily, saying, “Ha Gauranga! Ha Nityananda!” None of them could understand in what kind of bhava their revered, elderly Babaji was absorbed. Before their eyes, he became stunned. Then after some time he burst into tears, crying, “Woe is me! Alas! Where is my Rupa? Where is my Sanatana? Where is my Dasa Gosvami? Where is my Krsnadasa Kaviraja, the dearmost brother of my heart? Where have they gone, abandoning me all alone? Fie on me that I remain alive, simply tolerating the pain of their separation! I am undone by their separation. Even the remembrance of Radha-kunda is troublesome to me. My lifeforce writhes in agony. Only the vision of Rupa-Sanatana will save my forlorn life. I have not given up my life, even though separated from them! I am simply condemned in every way!” Speaking in this way, he began to roll in the dust of the courtyard. All the Vaisnavas there said, “Babaji, be patient. Rupa and Raghunatha are in your heart. Look here, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu are dancing before you.”

“Oh! Oh, where?” Babaji suddenly leapt to his feet, and saw before him Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Advaita Prabhu, Sri Gadadhara, Srivasa and all the devotees performing kirtana. They were all dancing, completely absorbed in mahabhava. Seeing this scene, he said, “Blessed is Mayapura! Only Sri Mayapura can remove the grief of separation from Vraja.”When the scene disappeared, he went on dancing for a long time.Later, becoming peaceful, he sat in his cottage.

Just then, Vijaya Kumara and Vrajanatha came and offered obeisances at his lotus feet. Seeing them, Babaji Maharaja was very pleased and said, “How is your bhajana?”

Both of them humbly folded their hands and said, “We need your mercy, for it is everything to us. It is only because of so much sukrti (pious activities) accumulated over many births that we could so easily attain the shelter of your lotus feet. Since it is Ekadasi today, with your permission we will observe nirjala fasting. We have come to take your darsana.”

Babaji: You two are blessed. Very soon you will attain the state of bhava.

Vijaya: Prabhu, what is the state of bhava? So far, you have not told us anything about this. Kindly bestow your mercy upon us by speaking on this subject.

Babaji: Up to this point, I have only given you instructions concerning the practice of sadhana. By continually practicing sadhana, one gradually comes to the perfected stage. Bhava is the preliminary condition which heralds the stage of perfection (siddhaavastha). Sri Dasa-mula (10a) gives the following description of this perfected state:

 

 

svarupavasthane madhura-rasa-bhavodaya iha

 

 

 

vraje radha-krsna-svajana-jana bhavam hrdi vahan

 

 

 

paranande pritim jagad-atula-sampat-sukham aho

 

 

 

vilasakhye tattve parama-paricaryam sa labhate

 

In the mature stage of sadhana-bhakti, when the jiva becomes situated in his svarupa, then by the influence of the hladini potency, the state of bhava in madhura- rasa arises within him. In other words, the mood to follow in the footsteps of the dearmost associates of Sri Sri Radha Krsna in Vraja arises in his heart. Gradually he obtains happiness and prosperity that is unsurpassed in this world, in the form of the supreme service of paramananda-tattva, which is known as vilasa. There is no greater gain than this for the jiva.

This sloka describes prayojana-tattva, the stage of prema. The first stage of prema is bhava.

 

 

prabhuh kah ko jivah katham idam acid-visvam iti va

 

 

 

vicaryaitan arthan hari-bhajana-krc chastra-caturah

 

 

 

abhedasam dharman sakalam aparadham pariharan

 

 

 

harer namanandam pibati hari-daso hari janaih

 

 

 

Dasa-mula (10b)

 

 

 

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Who is Krsna? Who am I, the jiva? What is this temporary material (acit) world, and the eternal spiritual (cit) world? He, who is exclusively devoted to the bhajana of Sri Hari and has made an intelligent analysis of the Vaisnava sastras under the guidance of suddha-bhaktas, who has abandoned all offenses and attachment to dharma and adharma, and who can consider and dispose of all questions, that servant of Sri Hari drinks the sublime beverage of sri-hari-nama in the company of other hari-janas.

This Dasa-mula is a compilation of unparalleled beauty, in which all of Sriman Mahaprabhu’s instructions have been expressed concisely.

Vijaya: I would like to hear the exalted position of Dasa-mula in brief.

Babaji: Then listen.

 

 

samsevya dasa-mulam vai hitva ‘vidyam ayam janah

 

 

 

bhava-pustim tatha tustim labhate sadhu-sangatah

 

 

 

Dasa-mula-mahatmya

 

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When the jiva studies and carefully follows this Dasa-mula, he throws far away material disease in the form of ignorance. Thereafter, through the association of sadhus, he obtains the nourishment of bhava, and becomes fully satisfied.

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Vijaya: Prabhu, may all of us wear the necklace of this incomparable Dasa-mula about our necks. We will recite this Dasa-mula every day, and offer respectful obeisances unto Sriman Mahaprabhu. Now kindly elaborate on the subject of bhava (bhava-tattva).

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Babaji: The characteristic feature of bhava is that it is situated in unalloyed goodness (suddha-sattva-visesa-rupa-tattva). It can be compared to a tiny ray of the prema sun.

The constitutional characteristic (svarupa-laksana) of bhava is that it is situated in unalloyed goodness (visuddha-sattva). Bhava is also known by the name rati, and is sometimes called a sprout of prema (premankura). The propensity for divine knowledge (samvitvrtti) is an aspect of the all-enlightening internal potency (svarupasakti), and is the state of unalloyed goodness (suddha-sattva), having no connection with maya. When this samvit-vrtti combines with the propensity for unalloyed bliss (hladini-vrtti), the essential aspect of that combination is called bhava.

One obtains knowledge of an object (vastu) by means of the propensity for consciousness (samvit-vrtti), and one tastes that object through the propensity for unalloyed bliss (hladini-vrtti). Krsna is the supreme object, and His svarupa can only be known through the all-enlightening propensity of svarupa-sakti, and not by the mental faculty of the marginal jivas. When the svarupa-sakti manifests herself within the heart of the jiva by the mercy of Krsna or of His bhakta, then the cognitive faculty (samvit-vrtti) of the svarupa-sakti begins to act within the heart. When that happens, knowledge of the spiritual realm (cid-jagat) is revealed. The spiritual world is constituted of suddha-sattva, whereas the material world is constituted of a combination of the three material modes of sattva, rajah and tamah. The essential combination of hladini with the knowledge of the spiritual world enables one to taste the sweetness of that spiritual realm, and when that taste attains fullness, it is called prema.

If prema is compared to the sun, bhava can be compared to a ray (kirana) of the sun. The constitutional nature (svarupa) of bhava is that it is a ray of the sun of prema, and its unique characteristic (visesata) is that it purifies the heart of the jiva and thus causes the heart to become softened or melted (masrna). The word ruci signifies three desires. These are 1) the desire to attain the service of Radha and Krsna (prapty-abhilasa), 2) the desire to do that which is favorable for Krsna’s pleasure (anukulya-abhilasa), and 3) the desire to serve Krsna with love and affection (sauharda-abhilasa).

Bhava can be described as the first glimpse of prema. The word masrna means ‘softness and melting of the heart.’ Bhava has been described in the tantra as the preliminary state of prema, and when it arises, horripilation and other transformations of ecstasy (sattvika-vikara) are manifested slightly. However, the state of bhava is self-established (svatah-siddha) in the nitya-siddha-bhaktas, which means that suddha-sattva is eternally present in them, so there is no question of it becoming manifest in them.

In the baddha-jiva, this state of bhava first manifests in the mental faculties (mano-vrtti) and then becomes identified (svarupata) with them. Therefore, although bhava is self-manifest (svayam-prakasa), it appears that it did not exist previously, and that its manifestation was brought about by something else (prakasya). The natural function of bhava is to reveal the intrinsic identity (svarupa) of Krsna and His sweet pastimes. Bhava manifests in the mental faculties (mano-vrtti), yet it appears to have been manifested by some other faculty of knowledge. In reality, the nature (svarupa) of rati is self-tasting (svayam-asvadanasvarupa); in other words, it is itself the object of taste and enjoyment for the bhakta, and yet at the same time it becomes the cause of the baddha-jiva relishing Krsna and His lila.

Vrajanatha: How many types of bhava are there?

 

Babaji: There are two types of bhava, arising from two different causes. The first is bhava that has arisen as a result of ardent spiritual practice (sadhana-abhinivesa-ja-bhava); and the second is bhava that has arisen due to Krsna’s mercy or the mercy of Krsna’s bhakta (prasada-ja-bhava). Bhava that arises from the practice of sadhana is the most commonly observed; bhava arising from special mercy is very rare.

Vrajanatha: What is bhava arising from practice (sadhana-abhinivesa-ja-bhava)?

Babaji: There are two kinds of bhava arising from practice, one on the vaidhi-marga and the other on the raganuga-marga. Ruci appears first, before bhava, and it is followed by attachment (asakti) to Krsna, and finally rati. I consider bhava and rati to be the same because this is the opinion of the Puranas and the sastras concerning the performance of the dramatic arts (natya-sastras).

In the case of bhava arising from vaidhi-sadhana, sraddha comes first, and then gives rise to nistha, which in turn develops into ruci. However, in the case of bhava arising from raganuga-sadhana, ruci is produced immediately.

Vrajanatha: What is bhava arising from the mercy of Krsna or His bhakta (prasada-ja-bhava)?

Babaji: Bhava arising from the mercy of Krsna or His bhakta (prasada-ja-bhava) is bhava that occurs spontaneously, without the performance of any kind of sadhana.

Vrajanatha: Please explain this further.

Babaji: Krsna’s mercy is bestowed in three ways: 1) by words (vacika), 2) by granting vision (aloka-dana), and 3) by grace manifest in the heart (harda). Suppose that Krsna bestows His mercy upon some brahmana by saying, “O best of the twice-born, may supremely auspicious, blissful, and uninterrupted bhakti arise within you.” Simply by such words, vacika-prasada-ja-bhava arises within the heart.

The rsis residing in the forest had never previously seen Krsna, but when they attained His darsana, bhava arose within their hearts. Such is the power of Krsna’s mercy. This is an example of bhava arising due to Krsna’s granting His vision (aloka-dana).