No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

Bhava that arises within the heart due to mercy is called hardabhava, and this is observed in the life history of Sukadeva Gosvami and other bhaktas. When Sri Krsna descended as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, there were many instances of these three kinds of bhava arising from His mercy. One cannot count the number of people who were filled with bhava when they saw Sriman Mahaprabhu. Jagai and Madhai are examples of those who obtained bhava because of the Lord’s words, and Jiva Gosvami obtained bhava from within his heart (harda-bhava), by Sri Gauranga’s mercy. Vrajanatha: What is bhava arising from the mercy of a bhakta?

Babaji: Dhruva and Prahlada obtained bhava for Bhagavan by Narada Muni’s mercy, and bhava-bhakti arose in the hearts of innumerable people by the mercy of Sri Rupa, Sanatana and other associates (parsada) of Krsna.

Vijaya: What are the symptoms of the appearance of bhava?

Babaji: The following characteristics begin to manifest in the sadhaka when bhava appears:

1. ksanti—tolerance,

2. avyartha-kalatva—concern that time should not be wasted,

3. virakti—detachment,

4. mana-sunyata—freedom from pride,

5. asa-bandha—bound by hope,

6. utkantha—deep longing,

7. nama-gane sada-ruci—taste to always chant sri-hari-nama,

8. asaktis tad-gunakhyane—attraction for hearing about Sri

Hari’s transcendental qualities, and

9. tad-vasati-sthale priti—affection for the places of Krsna’s pastimes.

 

Vijaya: What is ksanti (tolerance)?

Babaji: Ksanti means that one remains peaceful even when there

is cause for anger or mental agitation. Ksanti may also be called

ksama.

Vijaya: What is avyartha-kalatva (concern that time should not be wasted)?

Babaji: Avyartha-kalatva means that one does not let a moment pass in vain, and thus is incessantly engaged in hari-bhajana.

Vijaya: Please explain the meaning of virakti (detachment).

Babaji: Virakti is disinterest in sense gratification.

Vijaya: Can those who have taken vesa (renounced order, sannyasavesa or babaji-vesa) assert that they are detached?

Babaji: Vesa is a matter of social etiquette. When bhava appears within the heart, ruci for the spiritual world becomes very strong, and taste for the material world gradually diminishes. Finally, when bhava fully manifests, taste far the mundane world becomes practically nil (sunya-praya). This is called detachment (virakti). A detached Vaisnava is one who has attained virakti and then takes vaisnava-vesa to diminish his necessities. However, the sastras do not sanction taking vesa prior to the appearance of bhava; that is not real vesa at all. Sriman Mahaprabhu taught this lesson to the whole world when he punished Chota Haridasa.

Vijaya: What is mana-sunyata (freedom from pride)?

Babaji: Pride (abhimana) arises when one identifies with one’s wealth, strength, beauty, high position, high caste, good family, lineage, etc. Mana-sunyata means being free from pride in spite of possessing such material qualification. Padma Purana gives an excellent example of mana-sunyata. There was a wise emperor, who ruled all other prominent kings. However, when by good fortune krsna-bhakti arose within his heart, he gave up his opulence and his pride in being the emperor, and maintained his life by begging in the cities of his enemies. He offered respects to all, regardless of whether they were brahmanas or enemies.

Vijaya: What is asa-bandha (the bondage of hope)?

Babaji: Asa-bandha means to engage the mind in bhajana bound by

is cause for anger or mental agitation. Ksanti may also be called ksama.

Vijaya: What is avyartha-kalatva (concern that time should not be wasted)?

Babaji: Avyartha-kalatva means that one does not let a moment pass in vain, and thus is incessantly engaged in hari-bhajana.

Vijaya: Please explain the meaning of virakti (detachment).

Babaji: Virakti is disinterest in sense gratification.

Vijaya: Can those who have taken vesa (renounced order, sannyasavesa or babaji-vesa) assert that they are detached?

Babaji: Vesa is a matter of social etiquette. When bhava appears within the heart, ruci for the spiritual world becomes very strong, and taste for the material world gradually diminishes. Finally, when bhava fully manifests, taste far the mundane world becomes practically nil (sunya-praya). This is called detachment (virakti). A detached Vaisnava is one who has attained virakti and then takes vaisnava-vesa to diminish his necessities. However, the sastras do not sanction taking vesa prior to the appearance of bhava; that is not real vesa at all. Sriman Mahaprabhu taught this lesson to the whole world when he punished Chota Haridasa.

Vijaya: What is mana-sunyata (freedom from pride)?

Babaji: Pride (abhimana) arises when one identifies with one’s wealth, strength, beauty, high position, high caste, good family, lineage, etc. Mana-sunyata means being free from pride in spite of possessing such material qualification. Padma Purana gives an excellent example of mana-sunyata. There was a wise emperor, who ruled all other prominent kings. However, when by good fortune krsna-bhakti arose within his heart, he gave up his opulence and his pride in being the emperor, and maintained his life by begging in the cities of his enemies. He offered respects to all, regardless of whether they were brahmanas or enemies.

Vijaya: What is asa-bandha (the bondage of hope)?

Babaji: Asa-bandha means to engage the mind in bhajana bound by the unswerving faith that “Krsna will certainly bestow His mercy upon me.”

Vijaya: What is utkantha (deep longing)?

Babaji: Utkantha is extreme greed to obtain one’s heart’s desire.

Vijaya: What is nama-kirtana-ruci (taste for chanting sri-harinama)?

Babaji: Ruci in nama-kirtana means incessant engagement in harinama

with the faith (visvasa) that sri-nama-bhajana is the highest

of all the many types of bhajana. Ruci for nama-kirtana is the key to

attaining supreme auspiciousness. Another day I will explain the

truth regarding sri-hari-nama.

Vijaya: What is asaktis tad-gunakhyane (attachment to the descriptions of the transcendental qualities of Krsna)?

Babaji: It is said in Sri Krsna-karnamrta:

madhuryad api madhuram manmathata tasya kim api kaisoram

capalyad api capalam, ceto bata harati hanta kim kurmah

Sri Krsna, as the transcendental Cupid (manmatha), is sweeter than the most sweet, and His adolescence is more restless than the most restless thing. The qualities of that transcendental Cupid, which defy description, are stealing my mind. Alas! What shall I do now?

No matter how much one hears about Sri Krsna’s qualities, one never becomes satiated. The attachment to hearing goes on increasing incessantly, and one never stops wishing to hear more and more.

Vijaya: What is tad-vasati-sthale priti (affection for the places of Krsna’s pastimes)?

Babaji: When a bhakta performs parikrama of Sri Navadvipa-dhama, he inquires as follows: “O residents of the dhama, where is the birthplace of the dearmost Master of our life? In which direction would Mahaprabhu’s kirtana party pass? Please tell me where our Master used to perform his forenoon pastimes with the gopas.” residents of the dhama reply, “This place where we are standing is Sri Mayapura. The elevated place that you see directly in front of us, surrounded by the grove of tulasi plants, is the very place where the most precious appearance of Sriman Mahaprabhu took place. Just see the villages of Ganga-nagara, Simuliya, Gadigacha, Majida, and others. Sriman Mahaprabhu’s first sankirtana party passed through these very villages.” Hearing such sweet talks saturated with prema from the mouths of the residents of Gauda, his body thrills with horripilation, his heart becomes overwhelmed with bliss, and tears trickle from his eyes. In this way, he performs parikrama of all Mahaprabhu’s pastime places. This is called affection for the places where the Lord performed His pastimes (tadvasati-sthale priti).

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

Chapter Twenty Two (Continued- Part Three)

Vrajanatha: Should we understand that rati towards Krsna has arisen in every individual in whom we observe this kind of emotion?

Babaji: No. Rati is emotion (bhava) that arises spontaneously towards Krsna. Similar emotion may be observed in relation to other objects, but it cannot be called rati.

Vrajanatha: Will you kindly give one or two examples to make this subject clear?

Babaji: Suppose a man desires liberation, but the dry and difficult worship of the nirvisesa-brahma seems troublesome to him. Then he hears from somewhere that one can very easily attain mukti simply by uttering the names of Bhagavan. For example, Ajamila obtained mukti easily by uttering the name of Narayana. When the man hears this, he becomes overjoyed. As he remembers the power of sri-nama to give liberation, he becomes agitated with ecstasy, thinking that he will receive liberation easily. He chants sri-hari-nama, weeps continuously, and falls down unconscious. In this instance, the name uttered by the sadhaka who desires liberation is not suddha-nama, and the bhava that he displays is not krsna-rati (suddha-bhava), because his spontaneous feeling isnot directed towards Krsna. His main objective is to obtain mukti, and not krsna-prema. The name that he utters is called namaabhasa, and his emotional display (bhava) is called bhava-abhasa.

Another example is that of a person who worships Durga-devi in order to obtain material enjoyment. He prays, “Please give me benedictions! Please give me wealth!” Then, thinking that Durgadevi will fulfill his heart’s desire as soon as she becomes pleased, he exclaims, “O Durga!” and rolls on the ground before her, crying. This person’s bhava when he cries and falls on the ground is not suddha-bhava. It is sometimes described as bhava-abhasa, and sometimes as false or impure emotion (kubhava). Bhava cannot arise unless one performs unadulterated worship of Krsna (suddha-krsnabhajana). Bhava is known as kubhava or bhava-abhasa if it arises from a desire for material enjoyment (bhoga) or liberation (moksa), even if it is related to Krsna.

The word kubhava refers to any sort of bhava that may arise in the heart of one who is contaminated with Mayavada philosophy. Even if such a person lies unconscious for seven praharas, this display cannot be called bhava. Aho! Even the most elevated liberated souls, who are freed from all kinds of desires, incessantly search out bhagavad-rati. It is the supreme secret, and Krsna does not easily bestow it, even on completely sincere bhaktas whose practice of bhajana is fully accomplished. How, then, can it arise in the hearts of those who do not have suddha-bhakti, and who are contaminated with desires for material enjoyment and liberation? Vrajanatha: Prabhu, it is often observed that when those who desire material enjoyment and liberation perform hari-namasankirtana, they manifest the bodily symptoms of bhava that you have described. How is this to be understood?

Babaji: Only foolish people are astonished to see the external symptoms of bhava in such people; those who understand bhavatattva properly call this sort of bhava “the semblance of rati (ratyabhasa),” and they remain far away from it.

Vijaya: How many kinds of raty-abhasa are there?

Babaji: There are two kinds of raty-abhasa: reflected raty-abhasa

(pratibimba raty-abhasa) and shadow raty-abhasa (chaya raty-abhasa).

Vijaya: What is pratibimba raty-abhasa?

Babaji: People who desire liberation think that one can only obtain mukti through brahma-jnana, but the spiritual discipline of brahma-jnana is difficult and troublesome. Some of them come to understand that mukti may be achieved simply by performing harinama, and that one may obtain brahma-jnana in this way very easily, and without hard labor. When they think like this, they become blissful, expecting to obtain mukti without having to undergo great difficulty. Then this semblance (abhasa) of the bodily transformations, such as tears, horripilation, etc., appear in their bodies. Such transformations are known as pratibimba-abhasa.

Vrajanatha: Why are they called ‘reflected (pratibimba)’?

Babaji: If those who desire liberation or material sense enjoyment have the good fortune to associate with advanced bhaktas, they also begin to adopt the processes of hari-nama-kirtana and so on. At that time, some reflection of the bhava-moon in the sky of the suddha-bhakta’s heart also appears in the heart of those who are thirsty for liberation. This reflection is called pratibimba. Suddhabhava never arises in the hearts of those who desire material sense enjoyment or liberation, but bhava-abhasa arises in them when they see the bhava of suddha-bhaktas. That bhava-abhasa is known as pratibimba-abhasa, and it does not generally produce any enduring benefit. It only bestows material enjoyment and liberation, and then it disappears. Such bhava-abhasa may also be understood to be a kind of nama-aparadha.

Vrajanatha: Please explain the nature of chaya-bhava-abhasa.

Babaji: When a kanistha-bhakta who is unacquainted with knowledge of the self (atma-tattva) associates with activities, time, places, and bhaktas that are dear to Hari, a shadow (chaya) of rati may appear. Compared to rati itself, this shadow is insignificant by natureand unsteady, but it creates curiosity (as to the rati the suddhabhaktas experience), and it destroys sorrows. This is called chayaraty-abhasa. The bhakti of these bhaktas may be pure up to a certain limit, but it is not resolute, and that is why it gives rise to ratyabhasa. In any case, such chaya-bhava-abhasa only arises through the influence of many pious activities. By the association of Vaisnavas (sat-sanga), chaya-bhava-abhasa becomes pure, and subsequently gives rise to suddha-bhava. Nonetheless, one should bear in mind that, no matter how developed this bhava-abhasa may be, it gradually wanes like the moon in the dark half of a lunar month if one commits some offense towards a pure Vaisnava. What to speak of bhava-abhasa, even suddha-bhava will gradually vanish if one commits offenses towards Krsna’s bhaktas. If one repeatedly associates with those who desire liberation, his bhava will also become bhava-abhasa, or he may fall victim to the pride of thinking himself to be Isvara. This is why it is sometimes seen that when new bhaktas are dancing, they develop the desire for liberation. These new bhaktas do not think carefully and consider their situation, and so they associate with those who seek liberation, which results in disturbances. New bhaktas should, therefore, carefully avoid the association of people who aspire for liberation.

Occasionally the state of bhava is seen to arise in someone suddenly, and without apparent cause. The explanation for this is that he practiced sadhana extensively in his previous birth, but

that practice could not bear fruit until now because of various kinds of hindrances or impediments. However, suddha-bhava suddenly arose in his heart when these obstacles were removed. Sometimes, an excellent state of bhava like this may also arise suddenly because of Krsna’s causeless mercy. This kind of bhava is known as sri-krsna-prasada-ja-bhava.

One should not criticize a person in whom true bhava has manifested, even though one may observe some slight fault inhis behavior, for once bhava has arisen, the sadhaka becomes completely successful in all his endeavors. Under such circumstances, it is not possible for him to behave sinfully, but if any sinful behavior is sometimes observed, it should be understood in one of two ways. The maha-purusa-bhakta may have performed some sinful activity by force of circumstances, but he cannot possibly remain in that condition permanently. Alternatively, some semblance of sin (papa-abhasa) from his previous life has not been completely destroyed, and is still present even after bhava has arisen in him, although it will be destroyed very soon. One should think like this and not pay any attention to the commonplace faults that may be seen in bhaktas, for it is nama-aparadha to do so. The Nrsimha Purana forbids us to absorb our attention in such faults.

bhagavati ca harav ananya-ceta

bhrsa-malino’pi virajate manusyah

na hi sasa-kalusa-cchavih kadacit

timira-paro bhavatam upaiti candrah

Just as the moon is never obscured by darkness, even though covered with black spots, similarly, a person exclusively devoted to Sri Hari remains glorious, though by appearance he may be wicked and depraved.

It should not be concluded from this instruction that a bhakta repeatedly engages in sinful activities. Once a bhakta has developed nistha in bhakti, he will have no inclination to sin further. However, as long as the material body exists, there is a chance that sinful activity will occur unexpectedly. If a bhakta is exclusively devoted, the influence of his bhajana immediately burns to ashes all kinds of sins, just as a blazing fire easily consumes a small heap of cotton, and he becomes cautious not to become victimized by any sinful activity again.

All kinds of sinful actions are dissipated at the stage of steady, uninterrupted ananya-bhakti, so it may be clearly understood thatthose who repeatedly engage in sinful activities have not yet developed this type of bhakti. To engage repeatedly and knowingly in sinful activity while practicing bhakti-yoga is nama-aparadha, which uproots bhakti completely and casts it aside. Bhaktas therefore keep themselves distant from such offenses.

Rati is by nature restless (asanti), warm, vigorous, and blissful, because it is perpetually full of increasing spiritual longing (abhilasa). Although it produces warmth in the form of sancaribhava, it is more cooling than millions of moons, and it tastes as sweet as nectar.

When Vrajanatha and Vijaya Kumara heard this explanation of bhava-tattva, they were wonderstruck and sat silently for a while, absorbed in thoughts of bhava. After some time, they said, “Prabhu, the powerful rain of your nectarean instructions has created a flood of prema in our scorched hearts. Now what should we do? Where should we go? We cannot understand anything. It is very difficult for us to attain bhava because our hearts are bereft of humility. We are full of pride because of our brahmana birth, and the only thing that can save us is your abundant love and mercy. If you bestow a drop of prema on us we shall certainly achieve our objective. Our only hope is that we have been able to establish a spiritual relationship with you. We are extremely poor, wretched, and destitute, and you are Krsna’s dear associate, and supremely merciful. Please be merciful to us and instruct us as to our duty.”

Vijaya Kumara took advantage of the opportunity, and said, “At this very moment Prabhu, the desire is arising in me to renounce householder life and obtain residence as a servant of your lotus feet. Vrajanatha is just a boy, and his mother wants him to become a grhastha, but he does not desire to do so. Please give your instruction as to what he should do in this connection.”

Babaji: You have both received Krsna’s mercy. You should serve Krsna by transforming your household into Krsna’s household.Everyone should act according to the instructions which Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave to the world. He taught that there are two ways by which one may worship Bhagavan while in this world: one may live as a householder or in the renounced order. Until one is qualified to take up the renounced order, he should remain a householder and engage in Krsna’s service.

In the first twenty-four years of His manifest pastimes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu displayed the ideal for a grhastha Vaisnava, and during His last twenty-four years, He set the ideal for a renounced Vaisnava. Mahaprabhu’s example as a grhastha established the goal of householder life. In my opinion, you should also do the same. You should not think that one cannot obtain the goal of krsnaprema in householder life. Most of Mahaprabhu’s favored devotees were grhasthas, and even Vaisnavas in the renounced order of life pray for the dust from the lotus feet of those grhastha-bhaktas.

The night was far advanced. Vijaya Kumara and Vrajanatha spent the whole night in Srivasangana, chanting the glories of Sri Hari in the company of the other Vaisnavas. At dawn the next morning, they finished their ablutions, bathed in the Ganga, and then offered dandavat-pranama at the feet of their Gurudeva and the Vaisnavas. Then they again performed sankirtana, took mahaprasada, and returned home before noon. Vijaya Kumara called his sister and said, “Now Vrajanatha will marry, so you should make the necessary preparations. I am going to Modadruma for a few days. You can send news to me when you have fixed a date for the wedding. I shall come with other family members to enhance the auspicious marriage ceremony. I shall send my young brother Harinatha here tomorrow. He will stay here and arrange everything.”

Vrajanatha’s mother and paternal grandmother felt as if they had obtained sovereignty over the earth. Completely overjoyed, they presented Vijaya Kumara with new clothes and other gifts before they bade him farewell.

THUS ENDS THE TWENTY-SECOND CHAPTER OF JAIVA-DHARMA,

ENTITLED

“PRAMEYARAYOJANA-TATTVA”

Sarva gattah · February 24, 2008

Srila Prabhupada has explained to us that only when ones awareness is absorbed in ones secondary non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha conscious projection, which is an extension of the marginal living entities individuality, can one further manifest as a dormant Impersonal spiritual spark.

This can only happen AFTER the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness goes through the mahat-tattva, therefore what Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj see as ‘souls’ emerging from the Brahmajyoti, is seeing ONLY the impersonal aspect of Brahman where such soul are actually the jiva-baddha dreaming conscious condition of the marginal living entity.

Srila Prabhupada has made it very clear that our genuin real self, or nitya-siddha bodily form, never leaves Goloka, we only dream or imagine we leave, or that we are fallen.

The jiva-baddha is then becomes consciously part the Brahma-sayujya collective situated with unlimited others as single units within the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman.

The secondary mahat-tattva creation is a temporary phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of those who activate their jiva-baddha mundane consciousness.

Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the exact way one falls from Vaikuntha (keep in mind, most NEVER choose to set in motion the ability to activate their baddha-jiva consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada is very clear on this issue, the fact is. that all living entities already have their nitya-siddha svarupa bodily form in the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotees of Krishna) in the past.

The living entity is marginal due to the characteristics of free will that enables one to increase ones love for beautiful Krishna or abandon their devotional position in Goloka that includes the body they serve Krishna as, for the inferior secondary aspect of the marginal living entities character called the nitya-baddha consciousness.

The marginal living entities authentic continual individual bodily form is constitutionally a perpetual personal spiritual form (vigraha) originating emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body and engaged in unlimited moods of devotion (rasas).

Sarva gattah · February 24, 2008

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "Nitya siddha also means bodily form or our transcendental body"

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle of living LIGHT OR so called atoms in a ray as individual dormant light particles, as one advanced humble Vaishnava puts it, is ONLY correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. This is because the living entity only 'sub-consciously' leaves Goloka in a 'dream-like' consciousness that IS the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entities identity.

This baddha-jiva dream state consciousness enters the mahat-tattva and is given form by Maha-Vishnu. After many millions and millions of births throughout the three worlds of material existence, the baddha-jiva becomes fed up with the temporary nature of the material creation and takes refuge in the 'inactive dreamless' impersonal Brahmajyoti. And stays there until the next maha-tattva creation manifests.

In this way Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj, along with many others, ARE ONLY referring to the SECONDARY baddha-jiva state that is the 'dark side' of our marginal identity.

The ‘light side' of our marginal living identity is eternally nitya-siddha and that is our perpetual 'svarupa' bodily identity that can never fall down from Goloka. It is something to be regained Prabhupada has told us.

The vast majority of creation is Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana where all living entities are aware of their nitya-siddha perpetual status.

On the other hand, those who choose not to remember their eternal Krishna Conscious nitya siddha, which means being fully aware that they are Krishna’s eternal servants, ONLY 'consciously' leave Goloka, not as their nitya-siddha body, but as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the DREAMING mahat-tattva creation relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Or can eventually EVEN EVENTUALLY, after passing through the mahat-tattva, merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, but only after we FIRST have ’sub-consciously’ come down from Goloka as our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming sub-conscious thoughts.

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

Jaiva Dharma

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Chapter Fifteen

Prameya: Jiva-Tattva

The next day, Vrajanatha reached Srivasangana earlier than on previous days. The Vaisnavas from Godruma had also come before evening to take darsana of sandhya arati, and Sri Premadasa Paramahamsa Babaji, Vaisnava dasa, Advaita dasa, and other Vaisnavas were already seated in the arati-mandapa. When Vrajanatha saw the bhavas of the Vaisnavas from Godruma, he was struck with wonder, and thought, “I will perfect my life by having their association as soon as possible.” When those Vaisnavas saw his humble and devotional disposition, all of them bestowed their blessings on Vrajanatha.

When arati was over, Vrajanatha and the elderly Babaji began to walk southwards together in the direction of Godruma. Raghunatha dasa Babaji saw an incessant stream of tears flowing from Vrajanatha’s eyes and, feeling very affectionate towards him, asked lovingly, “Baba, why are you weeping?”

Vrajanatha said, “Prabhu, when I remember your sweet instructions, my heart becomes restless and the entire world seems to be devoid of all substance. My heart is becoming eager to take shelter at Sri Gaurangadeva’s lotus feet. Please be merciful to me and tell me who I really am according to tattva, and why I have come to this world.”

Babaji: My dear son, you have blessed me by asking such a question. The day that the jiva first asks this question is the auspicious day on which his good fortune arises. If you will kindly hear the fifth sloka of Dasa-mula, all your doubts will be dispelled.

sphulingah rddhagner iva cid-anavo jiva-nicayah

hareh suryasyaivaprthag api tu tad-bheda-visayah

vase maya yasya prakrti-patir evesvara iha

sa jivo mukto ‘pi prakrti-vasa-yogyah sva-gunatah

Just as many tiny sparks burst out from a blazing fire, so the innumerable jivas are like atomic, spiritual particles in the rays of the spiritual sun, Sri Hari. Though these jivas are non-different from Sri Hari, they are also eternally different from Him. The eternal difference between the jiva and Isvara is that Isvara is the Lord and master of maya-sakti, whereas the jiva can fall under the control of maya, even in his liberated stage, due to his constitutional nature.

Vrajanatha: This is an exceptional siddhanta, and I would like to hear some Vedic evidence to support it. Sri Bhagavan’s statements are certainly Veda, but still, people will be bound to accept the teachings of Mahaprabhu if the Upanisads can substantiate this principle. Babaji: This tattva is described in many places in the Vedas. I will cite a few of them:

 

yathagneh ksudra visphulinga vyuccaranti

evam evasmad atmanah sarvani bhutani vyuccaranti

 

Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.1.20)

 

Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny sparks from a fire.

tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane

bhavata idan ca paraloka-sthanan ca

sandhyam trtiyam svapna-sthanam

tasmin sandhye sthane tisthann ete ubhe

sthane pasyatidan ca paraloka-sthanan ca

Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.9)

 

There are two positions about which the jiva-purusa should inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a dreamlike condition (svapna-sthana), and is the juncture (tatastha) between the other two. Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet, he sees both the jada-jagat (inert world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

This sloka describes the marginal nature of jiva-sakti. Again, it is said in Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18):

tad yatha maha-matsya ubhe kule ‘nusancarati

purvan caparan caivam evayam purusa etav ubhav antav

anu sancarati svapnantan ca buddhantan ca

Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern bank and sometimes to the western bank, so the jiva, being situated in karana-jala (the water of cause that lies between the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness.

 

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency).

Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature).

Vrajanatha: Is there any material component in the jiva’s original constitution?

Babaji: No, the jiva is created solely from the cit-sakti. He can be defeated – that is, covered by maya – because he is minute by nature and lacks spiritual power, but there is not even a scent of maya in the jiva’s existence.

Vrajanatha: I have heard from my teacher that when a fraction of the conscious brahma is covered by maya, it becomes the jiva. He explained the sky to be always the indivisible maha-akasa, but when a part of it is enclosed in a pot, it becomes ghata-akasa. Similarly, the jiva is originally brahma, but when that brahma is covered by maya, the false ego of being a jiva develops. Is this conception correct?

Babaji: This doctrine is only Mayavada. How can maya touch brahma? The Mayavadis propose that brahma has no sakti (luptasakti), so how can maya – which is a sakti – possibly approach brahma, if sakti is supposed to be non-existent? The conclusion is that maya cannot possibly cover brahma and cause such a miserable condition. Conversely, if we accept the transcendental sakti (parasakti) of brahma, how can maya, which is an insignificant sakti, defeat the cit-sakti and create the jiva from brahma? Besides, brahma is indivisible, so how can such a brahma be divided? The idea that maya can act upon brahma is not acceptable. Maya plays no role in the creation of the jivas. Admittedly, the jiva is only atomic, but even so, it is still superior as a tattva to maya.

Vrajanatha: Once another teacher said that the jiva is nothing but a reflection of brahma. The sun is reflected in water, and similarly, brahma becomes jiva when it is reflected in maya. Is this conception correct?

Babaji: Again this is simply another example of Mayavada philosophy.

Brahma has no limits, and a limitless entity can never be reflected. The idea of limiting brahma is opposed to the conclusions of the Vedas, so this theory of reflection is to be rejected. Vrajanatha: A dig-vijaya sannyasi once told me that in reality there is no substance known as jiva. One only thinks of himself as a jiva because of illusion, and when the illusion is removed, there is only one indivisible brahma. Is this correct or not?

Babaji: This is also Mayavada doctrine which has no foundation at all. According to sastra, ekam evadvitiyam: “There is nothing apart from brahma.” If there is nothing except brahma, where has the illusion come from, and who is supposed to be in illusion? If you say that brahma is in illusion, you are saying that brahma is not actually brahma; rather, it is insignificant. And if you propose that illusion is a separate and independent element, you negate the undivided oneness (advaya-jnana) of brahma.

Vrajanatha: Once an influential brahmana pandita arrived in Navadvipa, and in a conference of intellectuals, he established that only the jiva exists. His theory was that this jiva creates everything in his dreams, and it is because of this that he enjoys happiness and suffers distress. Then, when the dream breaks, he sees that he is nothing but brahma. To what extent is this idea correct?

Babaji: This is, again, Mayavada. If, as they say, brahma is undifferentiated, how can it possibly produce the jiva and his dreaming state? Mayavadis use examples, such as, ‘the illusion of seeing mother-of-pearl in an oyster shell as gold’ and ‘the illusion of taking a rope to be a snake,’ but their philosophy cannot provide a consistent basis for advaya-jnana.

Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupa as sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9)

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha

The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him.

I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

Vrajanatha: You have explained that the jiva is like a spark of a burning fire, or an atomic particle in the rays of the spiritual sun. What is the role of jiva-sakti in this?

Babaji: Krsna, who in these examples is compared to the blazing fire or the sun, is a self-manifest tattva. Within the compass of that blazing fire or sun – in other words, Krsna – everything is a spiritual manifestation, and the rays spread far and wide beyond its sphere. These rays are the fractional function (anu-karya) of the svarupa-sakti, and the rays within that fractional function are paramanu (atomic particles) of the spiritual sun. The jivas are compared to this very localized, atomic tattva. Svarupa-sakti manifests the world within the sphere of the spiritual sun, and the function outside the sphere of the sun is carried out by jiva-sakti, which is the direct partial representation of cit-sakti. Therefore, the activities related to the jiva are those of jiva-sakti. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8), “That acintya-sakti is called para-sakti. Although it is one, this innate potency (sva-bhavikisakti) has manifold varieties based on jnana (spiritual knowledge), bala (spiritual strength), and kriya (spiritual activities).” According to this aphorism of sruti, the cit-sakti is a manifestation of the para-sakti. It emanates from its own sphere – the spiritual realm –as the jiva-sakti, and in the marginal region between the spiritual and the material worlds, it manifests innumerable, eternal jivas, who are like atomic particles in the rays of the spiritual sun.

Vrajanatha: A burning fire, the sun, sparks, and the atomic particles of sunshine – these are all material objects. Why has a comparison been made with these material objects in the discussion of cit-tattva?

Babaji: As I have already said, inevitably there are material defects in any material statements we make about cit-tattva, but what alternative do we have? We are obliged to use these examples, because we are helpless without them. Therefore, those who know tattva try to explain cid-vastu by comparing it to fire or the sun. In reality, Krsna is far superior to the sun; Krsna’s effulgence is far superior to the radiance of the sun; and Krsna’s rays and the atoms in them – that is the jiva-sakti and the jivas – are far superior to the rays of the sun and the atomic particles in the rays. Still, these examples have been used because there are many similarities within them.

Examples can explain some of the spiritual qualities, but not all. The beauty of the sun’s light and the ability of its rays to illuminate other objects are both qualities that compare with the cittattva, for it is the quality of spirit to reveal its own beauty and to illuminate other objects. However, the scorching heat in the sunrays has no counterpart in the cid-vastu, nor does the fact that the rays are material. Again, if we say, “This milk is like water,” we are only considering the liquid quality of water in the comparison; otherwise, if all the qualities of water were present in milk, why would the water not become milk? Examples can explain certain specific qualities of an object, but not all of its qualities and traits.

Vrajanatha: The spiritual rays of the transcendental Krsna-sun and the spiritual atoms within those rays are non-different from the sun, yet at the same time they are eternally different from it. How can both these facts be true simultaneously?

Babaji: In the material world, when one object is produced from another, either the product is completely different from its source, or else it remains a part of it. This is the nature of material objects. For example, an egg becomes separate from the mother bird once it is laid, whereas a person’s nails and hair remain part of the body until they are cut, even though they are produced from his body. However, the nature of cid-vastu is somewhat different. Whatever has manifested from the spiritual sun is simultaneously one with it, and different from it. The rays of the sun and the atomic particles in the rays are not separate from the sun, even after they have emanated from it. Similarly, the rays of Krsna’s svarupa, and the atoms in those rays – that is jiva-sakti and the jivas – are not separate from Him, even though they are produced from Him. At the same time, although the jivas are non–different from Krsna, they are also eternally different and separate from Him, because they have their own minute particle of independent desires. Therefore, the jiva’s difference and non-difference from Krsna is an eternal truth. This is the special feature of the cit realm.

The sages give a partial example from our experience of inert matter. Suppose you cut a small piece of gold from a large piece, and use it to make a bangle. From the perspective of the gold, the bangle is not different from the original piece of gold; they are nondifferent. However, from the perspective of the bangle, the two are different from each other. This example is not a completely correct representation of cit-tattva, but it illustrates an important aspect: from the point of view of cit-tattva, there is no difference between Isvara and the jiva, whereas from the perspective of state and quantity, these two are eternally different. Isvara is complete cit, whereas the jiva is atomic cit. Isvara is great, whereas the jiva is insignificant. Some people give the example of ghata-akasa and maha-akasa (the sky in a pot, and the unlimited sky) in this regard, but this example is completely inconsistent with regard to cit-tattva.

Vrajanatha: If transcendental entities and material objects belong to completely different categories, how can material objects be used as appropriate examples for understanding transcendental entities?

Babaji: There are different categories of material objects, and the panditas of the Nyaya school consider them eternal. However, there is no such categorical difference between the cit (transcendental) and jada (material). I have already said that cit is the only reality, and jada is simply its transformation (vikara). The vikara is different from the original source, but it is still similar to the pure, original object in many respects. For example, ice is a transformation of water, and it becomes different from water through this transformation, but the two remain similar in many of their qualities, such as coldness. Hot and cold water do not both have the quality of coldness, but their quality of fluidity is the same. Therefore, the transformed object certainly retains some similarity to the pure object. According to this principle, the transcendental (cit) world can be understood to some extent with the help of material examples. Again, by adopting the logic of arundhati-darsana1, one can use material examples to understand something about the spiritual nature.

Krsna’s pastimes are completely spiritual, and there is not even the slightest scent of a material mood in them. The vraja-lila described in Srimad-Bhagavatam is transcendental, but when the descriptions are read in an assembly, the fruits of hearing them are different according to the respective qualifications of the various listeners. Appreciating the ornamental figures of speech from the mundane perspective, those who are absorbed in material sense gratification hear it as a story of an ordinary hero and heroine. The madhyama-adhikaris take shelter of arundhati-darsana-nyaya, and experience the transcendental pastimes, which are similar to mundane descriptions. And when the uttama-adhikari bhaktas hear the descriptions of those pastimes, they become absorbed in the rasa of pure transcendental cid-vilasa, which is above all mundane qualities. The Absolute Truth is aprakrta-tattva, so how can we educate the jivas about it without taking help of the principles that I have just described? Can the conditioned jiva understand a subject that renders the voice dumb and stops the working of the mind? There doesn’t appear to be any method of explaining these subjects other than the principle of similarity, and the logic of arundhati-darsana1.

Material objects can be either different or non-different from each other, so difference and non-difference are not visible in them at one and the same time, but this is not the case with paramatattva. We have to accept that Krsna is simultaneously different and non-different from His jiva-sakti and from the jivas in it. This bhedabheda-tattva (simultaneous difference and oneness) is said to be acintya (inconceivable) because it is beyond the limit of human intellect.

1 Arundhati is a very small star, which is situated close to the Vasistha star in the Saptarsi constellation (the Great Bear). In order to view it, its location is first determined by looking at a bigger star beside it, then if one looks carefully one can see Arundhati close by.“Similarly, the madhyama-adhikari, although taking help from the senses and the language of the material world in describing the spiritual world, realizes and sees the aprakrta-tattva after having applied the anjana, ointment, of prema to the eyes of bhakti.”

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

Vrajanatha: What is the difference between Isvara and the jiva?

Babaji: First you should understand the non-difference between Isvara and the jiva, and after that, I will explain their eternal difference. Isvara is the embodiment of knowledge (jnana-svarupa), the knower (jnata-svarupa), one who considers or reflects (mantasvarupa) and the enjoyer (bhoktr-svarupa). He is self-effulgent (svaprakasa) and He also illuminates others (para-prakasa). He has His own desires (iccha-maya), and He is the knower of all (ksetra-jna). The jiva, too, is the form of knowledge, the knower, and the enjoyer; he too, is self-effulgent, and he illuminates others; and he too, has desires, and is the knower of his own field (ksetra-jna). From this perspective, there is no difference between them.

However, Isvara is omnipotent, and by dint of this omnipotence, He is the basis of all these qualities, which are present in Him in full. These qualities are also present in the atomic jiva, but only to a minute degree. Thus, the nature and form of Isvara and the jiva are eternally different from each other because one is complete and the other is minute; and at the same time, there is a lack of distinction between Isvara and the jiva because of the similarity between their qualities.

Isvara is the Lord of svarupa-sakti, jiva-sakti and maya-sakti because of the completeness of the internal potency (atma-sakti). Sakti is His maidservant, and He is the Lord of sakti, who is activated by His desire; this is the svarupa of Isvara. Though the qualities of Isvara are present in the jiva to a minute degree, the jiva is nonetheless under the control of sakti.

The word maya has been used in Dasa-mula not only to indicate material maya, but also to indicate svarupa-sakti. Miyate anaya iti maya, “Maya is that by which things can be measured.” The word maya refers to the sakti that illuminates Krsna’s identity in all the three worlds, namely, the cit-jagat, acit-jagat, and jiva-jagat. Krsna is the controller of maya and the jiva is under the control of maya. Therefore, it is said in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (4.9-10):

asman mayi srjate visvam etat

tasmims canyo mayaya sanniruddhah

mayan tu prakrtim vidyan mayinan tu mahesvaram

tasyavaya-bhutais tu vyaptam sarvam idam jagat

Paramesvara is the Lord of maya, He has created the entire world wherein the jivas are bound in the illusion of material identification. It should be understood that maya is His prakrti, and He is Mahesvara, the controller of maya. This entire world is pervaded by His limbs.

In this mantra, the word mayi is used to indicate Krsna, the controller of maya, and prakrti is used to indicate the complete sakti. His great qualities and nature are the special characteristics of Isvara; they are not present in the jiva, and he cannot attain them, even after liberation. It is stated in Brahma-sutra (4.4.17), jagatvyapara- varjjam prakaranasannihitatvat, “The creation, maintenance and control of the entire transcendental and inert world is the work of brahma only, and no one else.” Except for this activity in relation to the cit and acit worlds, all other activities are possible for liberated jivas. The sruti states, yato va imani bhutani jayante (Taittiriya Upanisad 3.1): “He is that by which all the jivas are created and maintained, and into which they enter and become unmanifest at the time of annihilation.” These statements have only been made in relation to brahma, and they cannot be applied to the jiva by any amount of manipulation, because there is no reference to liberated jivas here. The sastras state that it is only Bhagavan, and not the liberated jiva, who performs activities of creation, maintenance and annihilation. One may suppose that the jiva can also perform these activities, but this gives rise to the philosophy of many isvaras (bahv-isvara-dosa), which is defective. Therefore, the correct siddhanta is that the jiva is not qualified for the above-mentioned activities, even when liberated.

This establishes the eternal difference between the jiva and Isvara, and all learned people support this. This difference is not imaginary, but eternal; it does not disappear in any state of the jiva. Consequently, the statement that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna should be accepted as a fundamental statement (maha-vakya).

Vrajanatha: If one can only prove the eternal difference between Isvara and the jiva, how can one accept the oneness? Another point is that, if there is oneness, do we have to accept a state of merging with Isvara (nirvana)?

Babaji: No, not at all. The jiva is not one with Krsna at any stage.

Vrajanatha: Then why have you spoken about acintya-bhedabheda (inconceivable oneness and difference)?

Babaji: From the qualitative perspective of cid-dharma, there is oneness between Krsna and the jivas, but from the quantitative perspective of their essential nature and individual personalities (svarupa), there is eternal difference between them. Despite the eternal oneness, it is the perception of difference that is eternally prominent. Though the abheda-svarupa is an accomplished fact, there is no indication that any such state has independent existence. Rather, it is the manifestation of nitya-bheda (eternal difference) that is always prominent. In other words, where eternal difference and eternal oneness are present simultaneously, the perception of bheda is stronger. For example, let us say the owner of a house is called Devadatta, his house is simultaneously a-devadatta (independent of Devadatta) and sa-devadatta (identified with Devadatta). Even though from some points of view it may be considered independent of Devadatta, still its specific characteristic of being identified with Devadatta eternally exists. Similarly, in the case of Isvara and the jivas, non-difference, or oneness, is not part of the essential identity, even at the stage of svarupa-siddhi, just as the house can be called both a-devadatta and sa-devadatta.From one perspective it may be viewed as a-devadatta, but still, the real identity is sa-devadatta.

Let me give you another example from the material world. Sky is a material element, and there is also a basis for its existence, but even though the basis is present, only the sky is actually visible. Similarly, even within the abheda existence, the distinctive nityabheda, which is real, is found, and that is why nitya-bheda is the only definitive characteristic of the essential reality (vastu).

Vrajanatha: Please explain the eternal nature of the jiva even more clearly.

Babaji: The jiva is atomic consciousness and is endowed with the quality of knowledge and is described by the word aham (‘I’). He is the enjoyer, the thinker, and the one who comprehends. The jiva has an eternal form which is very subtle. Just as the different parts of the gross body, the hands, legs, nose, eyes and so on combine to manifest a beautiful form when established in their respective places, similarly a very beautiful atomic spiritual body is manifest, which is composed of different spiritual parts. However, when the jiva is entangled in maya, that spiritual form is covered by two material bodies. One of these is called the subtle body (linga-sarira) and the other is called the gross body (sthulasarira). The subtle body, which is the first to cover the atomic spiritual body, is unavoidable (apariharya) from the beginning of the jiva’s conditioned state until his liberation. When the jiva transmigrates from one body to the next, the gross body changes, but the subtle body does not. Rather, as the jiva leaves the gross body, the subtle body carries all its karmas and desires to the next body. The jiva’s change of body and transmigration are carried out through the science of pancagni (the five fires) which is delineated in the Vedas. The system of pancagni, such as the funeral fire, the fire of digestion and rain, has been described in the Chandogya Upanisad and Brahma-sutra. The jiva’s conditioned nature in the new body is the result of the influences from his previous births, and this nature determines the varna in which he takes birth. After entering varnasrama, he begins to perform karma again, and when he dies, he repeats the same process. The first covering of the eternal spiritual form is the subtle body, and the second is the gross body.

Vrajanatha: What is the difference between the eternal spiritual body and the subtle body?

Babaji: The eternal body is the actual, original body, and it is atomic, spiritual, and faultless. This is the real object of the ego – the real ‘I’. The subtle body arises from contact with matter, and it consists of three vitiated transformations, namely, of the mind, intelligence and ego.

Vrajanatha: Are mind, intelligence, and ego material entities? If they are, how do they have the qualities of knowledge and activity?

Babaji:

bhumir apo ’nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca

ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir astadha

apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param

jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat

etad-yonini bhutani sarvanity upadharaya

aham krtsnasya jagatah prabhavah pralayas tatha

 

Bhagavad-gita (7.4-6)

 

My separated eight-fold apara or maya-prakrti consists of the five gross elements – earth, water, fire, air and space – and the three subtle elements – mind, intelligence and false ego. Besides this, O mighty-armed Arjuna, I have a tatastha-prakrti, which can also be called para-prakrti (superior nature). That prakrti is in the form of consciousness, and the jivas. All the jivas who have manifested from this para-prakrti make the inert world full of consciousness. The jiva-sakti is called tatastha because it is eligible for both worlds; the spiritual world, which is manifest from My antaranga-sakti; and the material world, which is manifest from My bahriranga-sakti.

Since all created entities are manifested from these two types of prakrti, you should know that I, Bhagavan, am the sole original cause of creation and destruction of all the worlds of the moving and non-moving beings.

These slokas of Gita Upanisad describe the two types of prakrti of sarva-saktiman Bhagavan. One is called para-prakrti (the superior energy) and the other is called apara-prakrti (the inferior energy). They are also known as jiva-sakti and maya-sakti respectively. The jiva-sakti is called para-sakti, or srestha-sakti (the superior sakti), because it is full of spiritual atomic particles. The maya-sakti is called apara (inferior) because it is material and inert (jada).

The jiva is a completely separate entity from the apara-sakti, which contains eight elements: the five gross elements – earth, water, fire, air, and space – and the three subtle elements mind, intelligence and ego. These last three material elements are special. The aspect of knowledge that is visible in them is material, and not spiritual. The mind creates a false world by basing its knowledge of sensual objects on the images and influences that it absorbs from gross subjects in the mundane realm. This process has its root in mundane matter, not in spirit. The faculty that relies on that knowledge to discriminate between real and unreal is called buddhi, which also has its root in mundane matter. The ego, or sense of ‘I-ness’ that is produced by accepting the above knowledge is also material, and not spiritual.

These three faculties together manifest the jiva’s second form, which acts as the connection between the jiva and matter, and is called ‘the subtle body’ (linga-sarira). As the ego of the conditioned jiva’s subtle body becomes stronger, it covers the ego of his eternal form. The ego in the eternal nature in relationship to the spiritual sun, Krsna, is the eternal and pure ego, and this same ego manifests again in the liberated state. However, as long as the eternal body remains covered by the subtle body, the material self-conception (jada-abhimana) arising from the gross and subtle body remains strong, and consequently the abhimana of relation with spirit is almost absent. The linga-sarira is very fine, so that the function of the gross body covers it. Thus, identification with the caste and so on of the gross body arises in the subtle body because it is covered by the gross body. Although the three elements –mind, intelligence and ego – are material, the abhimana of knowledge is inherent in them because they are vitiated transformations of the function of the soul (atma-vrtti).

Vrajanatha: I understand the eternal svarupa of the jiva to be spiritual and atomic in nature, and within that svarupa is a beautiful body composed of spiritual limbs. In the conditioned state, that beautiful spiritual body remains covered by the subtle body, and the material covering of the jiva-svarupa in the form of the jadasarira causes its material transformation (jada-vikara). Now, I want to know whether the jiva is completely faultless in the liberated state.

Babaji: The atomic spiritual form is free from defect, but because of its minute nature, it is inherently weak and therefore incomplete. The only defect in that state is that the jiva’s spiritual form may be covered through association with the powerful maya-sakti.

It is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.2.32),

ye ’nye ’ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho ’nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

O lotus-eyed Lord, non-devotees, such as the jnanis, yogis and renunciants, falsely consider themselves to be liberated, but their intelligence is not really pure because they lack devotion. They perform severe austerities and penances, and achieve what they imagine to be the liberated position, but they still fall from there into a very low condition due to neglecting Your lotus feet.

This shows that the constitution of the jiva will always remain incomplete, no matter how elevated a stage the liberated jiva may achieve. That is the inherent nature of jiva-tattva, and that is why it is said in the Vedas that Isvara is the controller of maya, whereas the jiva remains eligable to be controlled of maya in all circumstances.

 

THUS ENDS THE FIFTEENTH CHAPTER OF JAIVA-DHARMA,

ENTITLED

“PRAMEYA: JIVA-TATTVA”

Beggar · February 24, 2008

Reintarnation!!!!

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Sarva gattah · February 24, 2008

Srila Prabhupada – “Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?

The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence.

But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not "fall" down.

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna?

Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned, each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father.

But at that time those conditioned souls who are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anaesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions. Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angele

Sarva gattah · February 24, 2008

Letter Madhudvisa (Swami) in Australia 1972

Srila Prabhupada - "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears.

But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there.

There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna.

As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport.

But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going.

Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only.

Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed". Letter Madhudvisa in Australia 1972

gHari · February 24, 2008

[...]
Vrajanatha: I understand the eternal svarupa of the jiva to be spiritual and atomic in nature, and within that svarupa is a beautiful body composed of spiritual limbs. In the conditioned state, that beautiful spiritual body remains covered by the subtle body, and the material covering of the jiva-svarupa in the form of the jadasarira causes its material transformation (jada-vikara).

Now, I want to know whether the jiva is completely faultless in the liberated state.

Babaji: The atomic spiritual form is free from defect, but because of its minute nature, it is inherently weak and therefore incomplete. The only defect in that state is that the jiva’s spiritual form may be covered through association with the powerful maya-sakti.

It is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.2.32),

ye ’nye ’ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho ’nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

 

O lotus-eyed Lord, non-devotees, such as the jnanis, yogis and renunciants, falsely consider themselves to be liberated, but their intelligence is not really pure because they lack devotion. They perform severe austerities and penances, and achieve what they imagine to be the liberated position, but they still fall from there into a very low condition due to neglecting Your lotus feet.

This shows that the constitution of the jiva will always remain incomplete, no matter how elevated a stage the liberated jiva may achieve. That is the inherent nature of jiva-tattva, and that is why it is said in the Vedas that Isvara is the controller of maya, whereas the jiva remains eligible to be controlled of maya in all circumstances.

 

THUS ENDS THE FIFTEENTH CHAPTER OF JAIVA-DHARMA,

ENTITLED

“PRAMEYA: JIVA-TATTVA”

This surely sounds exactly as Srila Prabhupada explains it. I think we should avoid rushing to a conclusion before accommodating both Babaji and Prabhupada.

Ashvatama · February 24, 2008

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "Nitya siddha also means bodily form or our transcendental body"

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle of living LIGHT OR so called atoms in a ray as individual dormant light particles, as one advanced humble Vaishnava puts it, is ONLY correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. This is because the living entity only 'sub-consciously' leaves Goloka in a 'dream-like' consciousness that IS the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entities identity.

This baddha-jiva dream state consciousness enters the mahat-tattva and is given form by Maha-Vishnu. After many millions and millions of births throughout the three worlds of material existence, the baddha-jiva becomes fed up with the temporary nature of the material creation and takes refuge in the 'inactive dreamless' impersonal Brahmajyoti. And stays there until the next maha-tattva creation manifests.

In this way Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj, along with many others, ARE ONLY referring to the SECONDARY baddha-jiva state that is the 'dark side' of our marginal identity.

The ‘light side' of our marginal living identity is eternally nitya-siddha and that is our perpetual 'svarupa' bodily identity that can never fall down from Goloka. It is something to be regained Prabhupada has told us.

The vast majority of creation is Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana where all living entities are aware of their nitya-siddha perpetual status.

On the other hand, those who choose not to remember their eternal Krishna Conscious nitya siddha, which means being fully aware that they are Krishna’s eternal servants, ONLY 'consciously' leave Goloka, not as their nitya-siddha body, but as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the DREAMING mahat-tattva creation relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Or can eventually EVEN EVENTUALLY, after passing through the mahat-tattva, merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, but only after we FIRST have ’sub-consciously’ come down from Goloka as our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming sub-conscious thoughts.

This surely sounds exactly as Srila Prabhupada explains it.

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

[babaji:]

This shows that the constitution of the jiva will always remain incomplete, no matter how elevated a stage the liberated jiva may achieve. That is the inherent nature of jiva-tattva, and that is why it is said in the Vedas that Isvara is the controller of maya, whereas the jiva remains eligable to be controlled of maya in all circumstances.

 

THUS ENDS THE FIFTEENTH CHAPTER OF JAIVA-DHARMA,

ENTITLED

“PRAMEYA: JIVA-TATTVA”

This means that the jiva is always under the control of either Mahamaya in the conditioned state or Yogamaya in the Paravyoma, spiritual world in the liberated state.

gHari · February 24, 2008

This means that the jiva is always under the control of either Mahamaya in the conditioned state or Yogamaya in the Paravyoma, spiritual world in the liberated state.

Then what does this mean and where is this "beautiful spiritual body"? ..........

In the conditioned state, that beautiful spiritual body remains covered by the subtle body, and the material covering of the jiva-svarupa in the form of the jadasarira causes its material transformation (jada-vikara).

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

Vrajanatha: You have explained that the jiva is like a spark of a burning fire, or an atomic particle in the rays of the spiritual sun. What is the role of jiva-sakti in this?

Babaji: Krsna, who in these examples is compared to the blazing fire or the sun, is a self-manifest tattva. Within the compass of that blazing fire or sun – in other words, Krsna – everything is a spiritual manifestation, and the rays spread far and wide beyond its sphere. These rays are the fractional function (anu-karya) of the svarupa-sakti, and the rays within that fractional function are paramanu (atomic particles) of the spiritual sun. The jivas are compared to this very localized, atomic tattva. Svarupa-sakti manifests the world within the sphere of the spiritual sun, and the function outside the sphere of the sun is carried out by jiva-sakti, which is the direct partial representation of cit-sakti. Therefore, the activities related to the jiva are those of jiva-sakti. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8), “That acintya-sakti is called para-sakti. Although it is one, this innate potency (sva-bhavikisakti) has manifold varieties based on jnana (spiritual knowledge), bala (spiritual strength), and kriya (spiritual activities).” According to this aphorism of sruti, the cit-sakti is a manifestation of the para-sakti. It emanates from its own sphere – the spiritual realm –as the jiva-sakti, and in the marginal region between the spiritualand the material worlds, it manifests innumerable, eternal jivas, who are like atomic particles in the rays of the spiritual sun.

Regarding Jaiva Dharma:

Srila Prabhupada's lecture on September 23, 1969, on the divine appearance day of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura,

Bhaktivinoda Thakura happens to be one of the acaryas, and he has left behind him many books. Caitanya-siksamrta and Jaiva Dharma are very important books. They are in Bengali and Sanskrit. And he has prepared many books of songs. We are trying to present Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books in English, and gradually you will get them. So our adoration, our worship is to Bhaktivinoda Thakura today so that he may bless us to peacefully make progress in Krsna consciousness. Acarya-upasana. Simply by the blessings of the acaryas we can make very rapid progress.

Regarding Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books in general, a conversation took place with Prabhupada on May 13, 1975:

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of the previous acaryas.

Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other acaryas. So I was just wondering· Prabhupada: I never said that.

Amogha: You didn't say that? Oh.

Prabhupada: How is that?

Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous acarya's books.

Prabhupada: No, you should read.

Amogha: We should.

Prabhupada: It is a misunderstanding..we are following the previous acaryas. I never said that.

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Jaiva Dharma is a very authentic book for understanding tattva (established philosophical truths), sadhana (the process to attain the perfection of krsna-prema), and sadhya (krsna- prema). Those who will read it under the guidance of any well-trained and qualified Vaisnava will know its glories.

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

When Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya. They remained there in Vaikuntha and their manifestations came here to act like demons. Jaya and Vijaya can have so many forms, just as Yasoda has unlimited forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes, in each universe there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana. We cannot imagine this. Brahma has said that a person may be able to count the stars in the sky and the sands on the earth, but he will not be able to glorify the sweet pastimes of Krsna.

It is absurd to think that any jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana. Any liberated soul can come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious souls.

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

OUR ROOT CAUSE IS BALADEVA

The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world. They have always served Radha and Krsna in madhurya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. From Baladeva comes Mula Sankarsana in Dvaraka. Asanka (innumerable) jivas come from Baladeva in His form as Mula Sankarsana, and they serve Dvarkadhisa and Mathuresa Krsna in so many ways. From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva.

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Gaura Premanande

Although the jivas are actually eternal and so many things are told about their origin, and there is a different viewpoint from Goloka Vrndavana, still:

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

It is absurd to think that any jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana.

And Srila Narayana Maharaja would never accept Sarva gattah's philosophy. If he thinks that he does then he should contact him:

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja

swamibvnarayan@gmail.com

Sarva gattah · February 24, 2008

Quote:

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana due to free will.

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

ALL FALL DOWN IS, IS SIMPLY A DREAM

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So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

Srila Prabhupada has explained to us that the answer is the time factor and not the division of the self.

The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal Krishna Conscious bodily form or higher self of ones marginal identity.

While the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.

It IS that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time.

These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada is actually telling us that Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time.

The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna.

The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is actively within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels so one can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva.

Or is conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm and outside the active mahat-tattva, within an Impersonal inactive dormant jiva-baddha dreamless condition known as the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman, where an unlimited number of 'jiva-baddhas' remain in that dormant state that appears and expands (due to souls constanly being liberated from the mahat-tattva) as an individual collective of living light particles, not aware of past, present and future.

As already explained, Srila Prabhupada has told us that the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay.

Both are temporary conditions because the DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha.

The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuine identity perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada is clearly telling us that the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and is given material ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams a temporary reality.

However, they are subject to decay and are transitory.

Srila Prabhupada is telling us that at the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka in the eternal 'present' similtaneously.

Unfortunately even many so called advanced devotees cannot understand this fact.

At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand.

It depends on the devotee

Shakti-Fan · February 24, 2008

[babaji:] All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas willbegin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor.

[babaji:] ...Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

Sarva gattah · February 24, 2008

The impersonal Brahman effulgence is full of jiva-baddha's in a dormant non-active dreamless state.

It is a temporary state for the jiva-baddha consciousness while inactive or free from the temporary bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

However this jiva baddha condition is actually the secondary conscious projection of the living entity.

This rebellious jiva-baddha condition manifests within the sub-consciousness of the living entity when they choose to not serve Krishna, but instead chase their own delusional desires for pleasure.

As soon as the living entity chooses to withdrawal into to their baddha-jiva sub-conscious altered dreaming state, due to choosing to forget Krishna, they simultaneously forget their eternal nitya-siddha body and Krishna.

Instead, they now live within their own imaginary thoughts and dreams that place their sub-consciousness (nitya-baddha or baddha jiva lower self) within the mahat-tattva dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu.

They can stay in this dream mahat-tattva creation for an almost eternity if they desire.

The paradox here is when the baddha jiva chooses to dispell its nitya-baddha selfish mundane illusionary self and come back home to Goloka, and stop wondering the material universes in bodily vessels and then foolishly constantly entering the Brahman effulgence to escape the such mahat-tattva vessels, where the jiva-baddha experiences merging into a collective with other individual souls (baddha-jivas) that are all in an inactive dreamless impersonal consciousness (which is also temporary), is, that on return to their Krishna conscious awareness and waking from the dreaming baddha-jiva-coma state of material and impersonal existence, back to who they really are as their nitya-siddha body, it will be as if they never left Goloka.

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that this is too difficult to understand all this and how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha, and the subject is best not discussed. Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka.

Without it how can there be genuine Love?

Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire.

Here is Srila Prabhupada's response.

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

Beggar · February 24, 2008

The impersonal Brahman effulgence is full of jiva-baddha's in a dormant non-active dreamless state.

Note that Srila Prabhupada, himself doesn't always refer to brahman or the bhramajyoti as "impersonal" as Sarva gattah does. Look at this statement from the following purport - "So the brahmajyoti is not independent or self-sufficient." But Sarva Gattah treats the brahmajyoti like it some independent, impersonal and inherently evil entity. It's a cornerstone of his concocted philosophy. Look at this statement by Srila Prabhupada- "All luminaries in the sky are creations of the sun, the sun is the creation of the brahmajyoti, and the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the Lord. Thus the ultimate cause of creation is the Lord." Sarva Gattah's technique is cut off part of the philosophy in order to hide it from us (really his own mind), whenever it doesn't seem to support his theory.

Heres the whole thing:

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.5.11

yena sva-rocisha visvam

rocitam rocayamy aham

yatharko 'gnir yatha somo

yatharksha-graha-tarakah

SYNONYMS

yena -- by whom; sva-rocisha -- by His own effulgence; visvam -- all the world; rocitam -- already created potentially; rocayami -- do manifest; aham -- I; yatha -- as much; arkah -- the sun; agnih -- fire; yatha -- as; somah -- the moon; yatha -- as also; riksha -- the firmament; graha -- the influential planets; tarakah -- the stars.

TRANSLATION

I create after the Lord's creation by His personal effulgence [known as the brahmajyoti], just as when the sun manifests its fire, the moon, the firmament, the influential planets and the twinkling stars also manifest their brightness.

PURPORT

Lord Brahmaji said to Narada that his impression that Brahma was not the supreme authority in the creation was correct. Sometimes less intelligent men have the foolish impression that Brahma is the cause of all causes. But Narada wanted to clear the matter by the statements of Brahmaji, the supreme authority in the universe. As the decision of the supreme court of a state is final, similarly the judgment of Brahmaji, the supreme authority in the universe, is final in the Vedic process of acquiring knowledge. As we have already affirmed in the previous verse, Naradaji was a liberated soul; therefore, he was not one of the less intelligent men who accept a false god or gods in their own ways. He represented himself as less intelligent and yet intelligently presented a doubt to be cleared by the supreme authority so that the uninformed might take note of it and be rightly informed about the intricacies of the creation and the creator.

In this verse Brahmaji clears up the wrong impression held by the less intelligent and affirms that he creates the universal variegatedness after the potential creation by the glaring effulgence of Lord Sri Krishna. Brahmaji has also separately given this statement in the samhita known as the Brahma-samhita (5.40), where he says:

yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-

kotishv asesha-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam

tad brahma nishkalam anantam asesha-bhutam

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

"I serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose transcendental bodily effulgence, known as the brahmajyoti, which is unlimited, unfathomed and all-pervasive, is the cause of the creation of unlimited numbers of planets, etc., with varieties of climates and specific conditions of life."

The same statement is in the Bhagavad-gita (14.27). Lord Krishna is the background of the brahmajyoti (brahmano hi pratishthaham). In the Nirukti, or Vedic dictionary, the import of pratishtha is mentioned as "that which establishes." So the brahmajyoti is not independent or self-sufficient. Lord Sri Krishna is ultimately the creator of the brahmajyoti, mentioned in this verse as sva-rocisha, or the effulgence of the transcendental body of the Lord. This brahmajyoti is all-pervading, and all creation is made possible by its potential power; therefore the Vedic hymns declare that everything that exists is being sustained by the brahmajyoti (sarvam khalv idam brahma). Therefore the potential seed of all creation is the brahmajyoti, and the same brahmajyoti, unlimited and unfathomed, is established by the Lord. Therefore the Lord (Sri Krishna) is ultimately the supreme cause of all creation (aham sarvasya prabhavah).

One should not expect the Lord to create like a blacksmith with a hammer and other instruments. The Lord creates by His potencies. He has His multifarious potencies (parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate). Just as the small seed of a banyan fruit has the potency to create a big banyan tree, the Lord disseminates all varieties of seeds by His potential brahmajyoti (sva-rocisha), and the seeds are made to develop by the watering process of persons like Brahma. Brahma cannot create the seeds, but he can manifest the seed into a tree, just as a gardener helps plants and orchards to grow by the watering process. The example cited here of the sun is very appropriate. In the material world the sun is the cause of all illumination: fire, electricity, the rays of the moon, etc. All luminaries in the sky are creations of the sun, the sun is the creation of the brahmajyoti, and the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the Lord. Thus the ultimate cause of creation is the Lord.

Sarva gattah · February 24, 2008

Color guide -

1. Blue = Krishna, Vishnu tattva, Vaikuntha, Goloka (Superior or internal)

2. Purple = tatastha s'akti, jiva tattva, nitya siddha/nitya baddha (marginal living entity)

3. Brown = mahat-tattva, material energy, mahat-tattva bodily vessels, lifeless energy (inferior or external)

The 22 details about Krishna and His tatastha s’akti

1. - By virtue of His internal energy, Krishna exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. - By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), Krishna exhibits Himself as the living entities.

3. - And by means of His external energy Krishna exhibits Himself as material energy.

4. - We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels of Krishna as His marginal energy, also known as His marginal living entities or Jiva-tatastha’s.

5. - Krishna is the cause of all causes, the personification of the internal energy and the facilitator and maintainer of His external material energy.

6 - Tatastha is not a region in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or impersonal location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation, tatastha means the marginal living entities.

7. - Living entities or jiva souls are not being constantly “impersonally” generated and created from the dormant aspect of the brahmajyoti. We are eternal independant thinking living beings with no beginning or end, as the Bhagavad gita tells us

8. - We are perpetual nitya-siddha (bodily) souls with no commencement or termination, as the Bhagavad gita tells us. All living entities have a dark side if they choose to awaken with lusty selfish desires, that dark side is the baddha-jiva imaginary secondary consciousness

9. - The marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) are endlessly under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or be a slave to His (as the Maha-Vishnu expansion) illusionary energy in His mahat-tattva or material creation.

10. - Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self-characteristic of our jiva tatastha, is always serving Krishna, regardless.

11. - However, we can choose to ignore Krishna and not be aware of who we really and (nitya-baddha) and take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

12. - This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

13. - There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva

14. - Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

15. - Tatastha s’akti is not a position; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being under the influence of either the Superior energy or the inferior energy eternally.

16. - The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha.

17. - The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

18. - The water represents the Cit Sakti and the land represents the Maya Sakti. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between being influenced by both the water and the temptations on the land.

19. - The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva (living entity) is always under the influenced and dominion of the Cit Sakti or can choose to take shelter of the Maya Sakti.

20. - Some claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva, they claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva, the fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva.

21. - Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord, She is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

22. - The full possible expression of the jiva tatastha, is within the eternal ‘present’ of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha are expressed there as who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as our perpetual identity, personality and individuality that is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna in our perpetual ‘svarupa’ as nitya siddha.

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Our Original Position

Perhaps one still has doubts about how a soul comes to think be independent.

It can be postulated that before the living entity in its secondary baddha-jiva state assumes the post of Brahma, that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of Goloka.

How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma in their imaginary baddha-jiva state?

The answer is that Krishna’s pastimes are expansive. As Krishna expands His pastimes, so also the souls expand within Him into further realms of His Divine Lila or play.

The creation of the material world (mahat-tattva) is one more expanded Lila. Thus the Lord Himself personally enters the material world as Maha-Vishnu, and so also does the devotees when Krishna personally appears.

Even the eternal nitya-siddha residents of Goloka Vrndavana enter the material world at the time Krishna personally descends Himself, as He did 5000 years ago in Bhauma Vrndavana (the Vrndavana on earth, in India, 90 miles south of New Delhi).

Some of these residents assume forms different than their Goloka nitya-siddha identities. Narada Muni, for instance, the sage who preaches bhakti throughout the 3 material worlds, is originally Madhumangala, a friend of Krishna’s in Goloka. And Narada is also the son of Brahma (Brahma - can also be Vishnu-tattva).

Brahma is a role a for mostly baddha-jivas however, a nitya- siddha or even a purified jiva-baddha can also get that role in the Lord’s pastime of creation if that jiva is interested in participating in the mahat-tattva-Lila.

Beggar · February 25, 2008

Corrected Color guide -

1. Blue = Krishna, Vishnu tattva, Vaikuntha, Goloka (Superior or internal)

2. Red = nitya siddha and kayah vyuha gopas and gopis, sakhas, parents of Krsna etc.(ragatmikas who never fall or dream that they fall down)

3. Purple = tatastha s'akti, jiva tattva, nitya baddha (marginal living entity)

4. Brown = mahat-tattva, material energy, mahat-tattva bodily vessels, lifeless energy (inferior or external)

BhaktiK · February 25, 2008

What about these quotes by Srila Prabhupada saying the spiritual body is not in Goloka?

Edinburgh, July 16, 1972

Your spiritual body is already there within this material body. And in that spiritual body you shall exist along with God. That is the highest perfection of life.

Bhagavad-gita 2.13

The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body. So how we are eternal, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:avināśi tu tad viddhi yena

Bhagavad-gita 4.9-11

The spiritual body is already existing. I am spirit; I have got my spiritual body, but that body is now covered by this matter.

Sarva gattah · February 25, 2008

“The Relationship is Eternal” by Jayadvaita Swami

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall.

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya.

So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.

The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way:

“We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.”

But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived.

“So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships.

This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears.

“After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.” by Jayadvaita Swami

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana due to free will.

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

ALL FALL DOWN IS, IS SIMPLY A DREAM

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BhaktiK · February 25, 2008

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana due to free will.

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

Prabhupada said the spiritual body is within this material body. The spiritual body and the soul are not in Goloka but in the world of Maya.

Edinburgh, July 16, 1972

Your spiritual body is already there within this material body. And in that spiritual body you shall exist along with God. That is the highest perfection of life.

Bhagavad-gita 2.13

The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body. So how we are eternal, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:avināśi tu tad viddhi yena

Bhagavad-gita 4.9-11

The spiritual body is already existing. I am spirit; I have got my spiritual body, but that body is now covered by this matter.

No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

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