No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Beggar]

Srila Prabhupada,

Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.

Sometimes it is said that only 10% of jivas turn away from Krsna and therefore 90% are forever wholesome and uninterruptedly engaged in His service. (Can't find the reference right now). Usually doesn't mean 10%, that's just too high of a number. Usually means "almost always", but here if you look closely you will see that it means always; This is because "independence is always there" but clearly they never choose to give up Krsna's divine service (seva). So the eternally liberated nitya siddhas must have independence if love is a free transaction but “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance...". Such spiritual personalities are infallible, for they never forget Krsna even for a moment.

Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text

The living entities [jivas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned. Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

 

Bhag. 11.2.53, text

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe.

On several occasions Srila Prabhupada said that he never forgot Krsna even for a moment. This is just like the gopas, gopis, friends, parents, servants and cows and calves of Krsna etc. To think that these spiritual personalities fall or dream that they have fallen is a big offense.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Maybe the following will help you understand the bonafide true facts of devotional life and Vedic Knowledge

 

Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu ‘ ‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position.

Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu -"We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the Acaryas.

Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu - "They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarupa dasa web site

Question - There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible (kshara), and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible (akshara).

In the purport to this verse Prabhupada says: "According to the statement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, there are two classes of living entities. The Vedas give evidence of this, so there is no doubt about it." This is confirmed by Lord Caitanya (CC Madhya 22.10-12)

"The living entities [jivas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

What does this mean??

Answer - Srila Prabhupada explains there are nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha, but what does this mean? Srila Prabhupada explains – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS that most never fall down, however he is ALSO saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being. Jiva tatastha therefore is us, ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, and individuality manifested perpetually as a marginal living entity that can choose Krishna’s permanent creation or Maha-Vishnu’s impermanent creation.

Jiva-tatastha is therefore the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva that can remain established in a loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka in full memory of being eternally nitya-siddha, or a loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in Vaikuntha. Nitya-siddha devotees have different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down however, some may think or dream they are fallen (nitya-baddha).

Question - "Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions."

How many actually fall down to this nitya baddha dreaming condition??

Answer - most devotee's in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by nitya baddha however, up some do allow their memory of being nitya siddha to be covered by their illusionary nitya baddha consciousness activated by free will.

Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate an endless Spiritual creation. The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however imagine they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity is originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

"If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96)

C - Free will – Allows us to communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotional service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of how to express and ones self, then how can there be love?

D - In-between the spiritual creation and the material creation. We therefore eternally exist independently as a part and parcel as marginal beings. We are not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation; we are under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna, or being a slave to His illusionary energy (mahat-tattva).

Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily self is always serving Krishna, regardless.

However, we can choose to ignore Krishna and not be aware of who we really and sub-consciously take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

This material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are as nitya siddha in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of nitya baddha under the influence of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness with the mahat-tattva vessels or bodies we are given to fulfil our selfish nonsense dreams within the DREAMS of Maha-Vishnu.

The space and time of the Vaikuntha and Goloka aspect of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert mahat-tattva creation.

Bhaktivinode Thakura. "Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinode Thakura.

E - Impersonal Brahmajyoti. We can also choose to enter impersonal Brahmajyoti in a dormant dreamless state, after becoming fed up with the temporary bodily vessels on offer within the mahat-tattva.

Hare Krishna prabhu's

[BhaktiK]

 

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana due to free will.

 

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

 

 

Prabhupada said the spiritual body is within this material body. The spiritual body and the soul are not in Goloka but in the world of Maya.

 

 

Edinburgh, July 16, 1972

Your spiritual body is already there within this material body. And in that spiritual body you shall exist along with God. That is the highest perfection of life.

 

Bhagavad-gita 2.13

The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body. So how we are eternal, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:avināśi tu tad viddhi yena

 

Bhagavad-gita 4.9-11

The spiritual body is already existing. I am spirit; I have got my spiritual body, but that body is now covered by this matter.

[BhaktiK]

 

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana due to free will.

 

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

 

 

Prabhupada said the spiritual body is within this material body. The spiritual body and the soul are not in Goloka but in the world of Maya.

 

 

Edinburgh, July 16, 1972

Your spiritual body is already there within this material body. And in that spiritual body you shall exist along with God. That is the highest perfection of life.

 

Bhagavad-gita 2.13

The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body. So how we are eternal, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:avināśi tu tad viddhi yena

 

Bhagavad-gita 4.9-11

The spiritual body is already existing. I am spirit; I have got my spiritual body, but that body is now covered by this matter.

 

 

 

[BhaktiK]

 

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana due to free will.

 

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

 

 

Prabhupada said the spiritual body is within this material body. The spiritual body and the soul are not in Goloka but in the world of Maya.

 

 

Edinburgh, July 16, 1972

Your spiritual body is already there within this material body. And in that spiritual body you shall exist along with God. That is the highest perfection of life.

 

Bhagavad-gita 2.13

The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body. So how we are eternal, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:avināśi tu tad viddhi yena

 

Bhagavad-gita 4.9-11

The spiritual body is already existing. I am spirit; I have got my spiritual body, but that body is now covered by this matter.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Yes, we are actually in the material world or mahat-tattva due to having only that awareness!

 

 

The paradox here is that both the siddha jiva body and the baddha jiva consciousness are as real as each other, thoughts, dreams and actions on the Absolute level are exactly the same, the baddha jiva is real and therefore is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair within our dimensional reality within the maha-tattva dream.

So clearly, we are IN the material world, even if, as Prabhupada explains, our eternal 'svarupa' is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha within the 'eternal present' that is only existent in Vaikuntha.

This is because as long as we remain in the material world, our 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is no longer remembered in our present state of conditioned consciousness.

Therefore it only 'appears' our nitya-siddha eternal body does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

The baddha jiva however, does not understand this because they are not aware they even have a eternal relationship with Krishna.

Therefore our attendance in the material world is very very real. And to each of us, it is not a dream state, our jiva baddha consciousness IS actually 10,000th the tip of a hair, we do not experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha or Goloka, however we experience everything as temporary.

[Vedesu]

Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

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"Always awake to Krsna Consciousness." This is the direct opposite of sometimes sleeping in material consciousness, i.e. daydreaming about maya, as if maha-maya could ever enter Goloka Vrndavana to begin with.

[Sarva gattah]

When one chooses to forget Krishna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self and therefore, it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the living entity to manifest a secondary version of themselves (nitya baddha) that imagines, thinks and dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha or even Goloka in there eternal nitya siddha body.

This is possible due to the marginal status of the living entity, where exists the free will to be, or not be with Krishna, eternally exists.

That secondary nitya-baddha jiva condition enters the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given material form (vessels) by Maha -Vishnu to live out their non Krishna conscious imagination"

Srila Prabhupada – "…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?" You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned' Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual 'svarupa' body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha within the realm of the 'eternal present' that is unaffected by the past, present and future of divided time that exists in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying 'svarupa' body is currently not realized by them within the 'perpetual present' of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

This is because of being consciously absorbed and restricted to their baddha jiva conscious imagination that is trapped within the divided time of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu"

Srila Prabhupada - You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation" Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things". Letter to Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport" Letter to Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only" (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada –"Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode”. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only dream, think or imagine we leave. That dream state consciousness is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such baddha jiva dreams go. It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada - "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entity should become purified and regain his svarupa, his original identity" Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada - "Kāla is exhibited in three features: past, present, and future. That is in the material existence. And if one becomes above the three kālas, in the eternal time… Time is eternal, but in the material existence there is past, present, and future.

In the spiritual existence there is no past, no future, only present. Only present. Everything is fresh, present, nitya-navayamāna, only feelings, new, new. That is spiritual existence, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, only present—no future, no past. That we cannot realize now, but we can get the knowledge from Vedic literature.

The time factor… In the material world there is past, present, and future. Otherwise, time factor is eternal". Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.26.16 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon we come to the spiritual plane, "only present", but: "That we cannot realize now."

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Lord Balarama Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka.

There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way where we can understand that we never fall from Goloka, we only dream we do.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

When Srila Prabhupada says that nitya siddhas never fall down, what does that mean?

 

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never falling down, Srila Prabhupada is not saying that nitya siddhas can never be covered over (so called fall down), he is saying the memory of being nitya-siddha is covered.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) this is in harmony with the letter below

Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

We are ALL nitya-siddha and are only DREAMING we are nitya baddha

 

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti

[Shakti-Fan]

 

...we never fall from Goloka, we only dream we do.

 

Babaji: As I have already said, inevitably there are material defects in any material statements we make about cit-tattva, but what alternative do we have? We are obliged to use these examples, because we are helpless without them.

There are always defects in material statements (made in material languages) when we try to describe spiritual reality. "We are obliged to use these examples", which are therefore material examples. It's almost like Sarva gattah believes that Srila Prabhupada's use of the English language transcended this limitation language but actually it did not and in fact, he never proposed such a thing. When we go to sleep at night in these material bodies, we dream. Our material existence is like a dream but at a certain point the analogy fails. For instance some people don't need an alarm clock to awaken in the morning, they just get up by themselves. But we are never told that although we are "dreaming" our material existence, that we can "wake up" without receiving the holy name of Krsna from Sri Guru and following his instructions. If we really were just dreaming then we could just wake up.

 

 

This is because of being consciously absorbed and restricted to their baddha jiva conscious imagination that is trapped within the divided time of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu"

In Sarva gattah's fertile imagination we propel ourselves into the mahat-tattva by our "conscious imagination". But the nature of the Lord and the living entities is thinking, feeling and willing. So on some level we have thought, felt and willed to be in the material creation. But that process of coming to the material world was carried out by the agency of the Lords, purusa avataras and the material energy, Mahamaya. So again the dream or imagination analogy falls short. This does not mean that there is not something very profound within the dream analogy that can give us some deep insight into our predicament. There certainly is, or the acaryas, including Srila Prabhupada would have not used such an analogy.

But because language is such a difficult and clumsy tool to describe cit-tattva we must be extremely careful about it's use in this respect. Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said that a sadhaka should not preach on his own until he has reach the level of attainment. Generally when I write about these topics I try to stick to the language style of the different acaryas whose siksa I am taking. Sarva gattah on the other hand has created his own style and terminolgy to try to describe the spiritual reality of how the jiva enters this world. This is because he needs to do this because he is stating things that Srila Prabhupada never meant him to say, only he imagines it is so.

[Sarva gattah]

“Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

Srila Prabhupada – “If one understands Krsna, then all the departments of knowledge are part and parcel of that understanding. Krsna is transcendental, for He is always situated in His eternal internal potency.

The living entities are manifested and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned (nitya baddha) and eternally liberated (nitya siddha) however, an eternally liberated can become an eternally conditioned and visa versa due to free will.

Such living entities are innumerable, and they are considered fundamental parts of Krsna. Material energy is manifested into twenty-four divisions. The creation is effected by eternal time, and it is created and dissolved by external energy. This manifestation of the cosmic world repeatedly becomes visible and invisible”. Bhagavad gita as it is Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation

"Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has turned his face away from the Lord from time immemorial". - Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila, 20.108.

Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.

But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain.

Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) but factually every marginal living entity has these two fold characteristics.

But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned.

Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities.

Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence.

But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.

The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-02-27 Los Angeles

"This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant". - Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.5.19, purport.

Srila Prabhupada - "This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) but factually every marginal living entity has these two fold characteristics.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The living entities are manifested and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned (nitya baddha) and eternally liberated (nitya siddha) however, an eternally liberated can become an eternally conditioned and visa versa due to free will.

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

It is absurd to think that any jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana. Any liberated soul can come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious souls.

Consequently the above statement by Sarva Gattah is quite absurd.

 

[Vedesu]

Our material existence is like a dream but at a certain point the analogy fails. For instance some people don't need an alarm clock to awaken in the morning, they just get up by themselves. But we are never told that although we are "dreaming" our material existence, that we can "wake up" without receiving the holy name of Krsna from Sri Guru and following his instructions. If we really were just dreaming then we could just wake up.

[Beggar]

 

If we really were just dreaming then we could just wake up.

 

 

 

I'm trying to wake up Moe, but nothing's happening!

P.S. Keep this thread going, we might eventually break the record for the most number of posts!!!!

nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!

 

 

[gHari]

 

[...] To think that these spiritual personalities fall or dream that they have fallen is a big offense.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

[Beggar]

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

If A = B and B = C, then A = C. IOW it's the logic of the argument that infers it. If every living entity can fall down (or dream that they do), even those who are directly serving Krsna as his father or mother, then how are they excluded? We have to be very clear on this siddhanta. Where does the exclusion take place in the spiritual world. Some cowherd boys can fall down (or dream it) and others can't? Where is the demarcation line between fallible and infallible?

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every entity is called infallible. B.G. 15.6

Why would they be called infallible if they fall. And if they are just dreaming that they are fallen, why is a distinction made between fallible and infallible? I would only employ such a strategy if I wanted to hopelessly confuse someone(If I always equated the two). It just doesn't make any sense.

Why would Krsna say?

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.

B.G. 15.6

If the badha-jiva's or conditioned souls of the material world have the potential to "reach" the abode of Krsna and are guaranteed by Him to never return to this material world; then according to the fall from Goloka theory (and the dream that we fell from Goloka theory) these previously baddha-jivas are in a better position than the nitya-siddha parikara, eternal servitors of the Lord. There's just no way around it. That's why such a philosophy was not taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Srila Sanatana Goswami nor by our previous acaryas.

[BhaktiK]

 

Originally Posted by Beggar

[...] To think that these spiritual personalities fall or dream that they have fallen is a big offense.

 

 

 

Gauragopala says all souls are either Visnu tattva or jiva tattva. He doesn't accept there is an difference between souls who are antaranga shakti or who are tatastha shakti.

 

According to his FALL theory the divine antaranga shakti beings (Gopis etc) have started dreaming about doing things like injecting heroin into their arms, eating hamburgers, homosexual activity, stock market speculation and so on and so forth. All the beings in the world are actually pure souls in Goloka, including beings such as vampire bats and rats that eat their children when they are hungry, as well as herpes germs and syphilis germs and the billions of krill and jellyfish that are mindlessly drifting around in the ocean. Mosquitoes are all residents of Goloka who are just dreaming about how they can get lucky and find somebody that they can suck blood from.

 

When we go to sleep at night we forget all about this material life and all our desires are deactivated. In that state where we are not involved in Maya, perhaps we are reawakened in our Goloka life. Is that what is going on? In the daytime in Goloka we are doing service to Krishna, and then we go off to sleep a material dream and start to dream that we are Gauragopala das ACBSP the pet of Srila Visnupada Bhavananda Maharaja.

[gHari]

 

[...]

If we really were just dreaming then we could just wake up.

[...]

 

Then there would be no alarm clocks.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada. - “The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972

Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets.

Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Vishnu.

These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The description Padmalochan gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move.

It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all. In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection. When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is”

I associated with Padmalochan Prabhu in Vrndavana. He was a very knowledgeable therefore his understanding of Vrndavana and Srila Prabhupada’s books can only have become more nectarine over the years.

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint within the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie; putting the DVD player on hold or pause, let me explain -.It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here. On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva.

In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies -

1. internal,

2. marginal and

3. external.

 

1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities.

 

3. And by means of His Lifeless external energy which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (also known as the mahat-tattva)

 

Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha by clearly understanding the following -

 

The three varieties of energies of Lord Krishna are therefore

 

Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. It is important to undertand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy, they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha.

 

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be inbetween the Superior and inferior. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual creation or Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation.

 

Inferior - The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies. The life force from the Superior plain (Krishna and His expansions like Maha-Vishnu) and the marginal plain (the jiva-tatastha in their secondary nitya-baddha DREAMING conscious projection [except of course a nitya-siddha devotee in Krishna's lila in the mahat-tattva like Srila Prabhupada]) ALL move the inferior energies (material) that has no life.

 

There are only two types of living beings in ALL of Krishna's perpetual creation, Vishnu tattva's and jiva tattva's (MARGINAL living beings

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. It is important to undertand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy, they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha.

 

Is the superior energy personal or impersonal? If it is personal, then it is really made up of spiritual personalities. Is it not? Of course the entire spiritual energy can be seen as Yogamaya, but does She perform her activities alone, does she expand Herself? Are these expansions persons? What about the blades of grass, bushes, creepers and trees in Goloka Vrndavana? What about the clouds? Why did Uddhava say that he wanted to take birth as a creeper in Vrndavana? Is it because he secretly wanted to fall down (or dream it). Srila Prabhupada tried to simplify the Gaudiya canon of theological truths so that the Judeo-Christian biased Westerners could understand something. The next logical step is for such persons to develop to the stage of approaching the study of the full Gaudiya siddhanta. Sarva gattah's approach is to step backwards and "Neanderthalize" the Krsna Conscious philosophy for the low brow crowd. In doing so he has given instead a reduction into absurdity.

[Sarva gattah]

It is not me saying we are eternally situated in Goloka and presently only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are not there, it is Srila prabhupada explaining to us that our original position is in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen..

Your argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”.In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

[Beggar]

The argument is with the Srila Prabhupada of Gauragopal's imagination!

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Where there is light, darkness does not exist

 

Similarly, when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.

Therefore ones svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna and not even aware that their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness even exists because factually it does not exist if one is fully Krishna conscious.

So it is due to the marginal living entitles non-Krishna conscious desires that ones secondary dreaming conscious characteristic of their marginal identity enters the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

This is made possible by ones choice to use their God given free will not to be with or remember Krishna as their devotional nitya-siddha form or body.

Such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness known as the nitya-baddha lower self’ to the temporary material manifestation known as the mahat-tattva, where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by Maha-Vishnu, the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

 

 

 

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

 

 

 

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka,

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation however; no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation.

We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

[Sarva gattah]

All of Gods/Krishnas’ subsidiary or marginal living entities are represented by an original devotional bodily form (vigraha) that is eternally ‘in attendance’ in the Kingdom of God serving Krishna in the perpetual ‘present’, devoid of past and future and therefore never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

This eternal jiva-siddha bodily form that all marginal living entities have is called ones nitya (eternally situated) –siddha (imperishable perfection of ones marginal constitution as an eternally devotionally liberated Krishna Conscious individual) - svarupa (one's perpetual Krishna Conscious individual form, shape, relationship and body) that never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana.

The ‘svarupa’ bodily form or ‘rasa’ relationship one has with Krishna is who one really is as they perpetually serve Krishna within His never ending pastimes, though within Goloka-Vrndavana ones rasa can change. Such intermit understanding can never be learnt on an academic level, they can only be realized by the grace of Srila Prabhupada (or his pure representative) and Krishna.

The time and space that we experience in this material world (mahat-tattva) are completely different from time and space in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha or the Kingdom of God.

Material time is divided into three aspects - past, present and future. On the other hand in the Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha planets there is only the one exclusive ‘eternal presents’ beyond our material concept of time.

Every experience in the Kingdom of Krishna (spiritual world) is everlastingly present within the rasa's and Lila's of Krishnas pastimes which further means every marginal living entity has an eternal nitya-mukta or nitya-siddha body.

 

Such a perpetual body is endlessly serving Krishna that they can realize if they choose to wake up from the material dream and go back home back to Godhead.