No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

From Lecture at Bega Southern NSW

 

Question – “Could this mean as our nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness dissipates, as the awareness of our nitya-siddha body is gradually re established and realized?”

Answer – “Yes, through our Krishna Conscious endeavour and selfless humble service, even while we are so called 'eternally conditioned' (nitya-baddha consciousness), our pathway back home can begin.

 

In this way while confined or trapped in our dreaming nitya-baddha comatose consciousness, we all have the opportunity to again re-establish our Krishna Conscious bodily active devotional self in our original perpetual position as nitya-siddha.

This fullness of the marginal living entity is a transcendental body without beginning or end blossoming within the devotional personal pastimes of Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna or Vishnu beyond mundane time and space.

The mundane realm is outside the Personal active pastimes of Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha. Such impermanence is only found within both the temporary mahat-tattva and also within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (Brahma-sayuyja etc).

In this way all living entities are originally nitya-siddha and have a perpetual bodily form serving Krishna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

Above is a painting of Gods/Krishna's creation of the Lord Krishna Conscious Personal Spiritual Sky. Also shown above in one corner of that Spiritual Sky, there also exists the mostly non-Krishna conscious material creation (mahat-tattva) that is built and facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion of the Lord.

The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam (or Vedic text called the Bhagavat-Purana) teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, referred to as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana, is the original source of all creation and all living entities which areal eternal devotees of Lord Krishna.

This central planet further radiates a living effulgence of living entities (devotees) that encircles the Goloka-Vrndavana Planet with the imperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets Krishna’s innumerable (countless) expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside, along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) that takes up the entire 100% of the Lords creation.

In Krishna’s phenomenal Spiritual universe, which is also known as the Brahmajyoti, occasionally a dark cloud (material creation or mahat-tattva jada-jagat- lifeless world) appears in one corner of the Spiritual Sky.

This cloud is initially devoid of life, built by the gigantic Maha-Vishnu to accommodate the independent dreams, thoughts and desires of a small minority of the nitya-siddha devotees who choose to live in their extended nitya-baddha dreams that ignores both Krishna and their own authentic perpetual body they serve Krishna as.

The Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha feature of the Spiritual Sky is always 100% populated with all of the marginal living entities as their original svarupa Krishna Conscious body which is the full expression of their marginal identity, individuality and personality.

Generally when Maha Vishnu creates the mahat-tattva or material creation, most of the inhabitants of Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha do not desire to enter His perishable abode through their dreams because they choose to remain serving Krishna.

Therefore the majority of the marginal living entities ‘remain aware’ of their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa bodily (vigraha) form that is forever in the immortal Spiritual Sky which is the sum total of the imperishable creation of Lord Krishna.

In other words every living entity in all the creation is represented in the Kingdom of Krishna with an ever-lasting bodily identity serving Krishna.

The dark imperishable cloud on the other hand, that every so often appears in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, caters for the un-godly and non-devotional dreams, desires and thoughts of a small minority of marginal living entities devotees in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, who choose to activate their baddha jiva consciousness and enter the dreams of the sleeping Maha Vishnu as shown above.

[Sarva gattah]

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha and is always in Goloka.

We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation however; no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation.

We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

[Sarva gattah]

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) eternally, even if we are dreaming as jiva-baddha in the material world.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad Gita as it is 4.6

 

The true facts of Spiritual life and the identity, personality, individuality of all marginal living entities, is their full Svarupa, expression of Vigraha (bodily form) eternal loving selfless devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna, the cause of all causes.

 

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krishna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relationship with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Krishna... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?

HANSADUTTA: I see.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No. That is not... Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Chaitanya-charitamrita. Why don't you see?

HANSADUTTA: And Nectar of Devotion.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with Krishna is the best."

HANSADUTTA: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some--

Srila Prabhupada – ‘No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve Krishna silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Krishna comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, 10 February 1971, Gorakhpur

It is stated in the Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya Lila, Chapter 22 "The Process of Devotional Service, text 107,

nitya-siddha krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

Srila Prabhupada – “"Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. com/madhya/22/...http://caitanyacaritamrta

Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti -- love for Krishna -- and in the association of genuine devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107): sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

Srila Prabhupada – “Dormant devotional service to Krishna is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, dormant love for Krishna is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service”. Guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija.http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/madhya/19/...

Srila Prabhupada – “Dormant love for Krishna exists in everyone's heart, and it simply has to be awakened by the regulative process of devotional service. One has to learn to use a typewriter by following the regulative principles of the typing book. One has to place his fingers on the keys in such a way and practice, but when one becomes adept, he can type swiftly and correctly without even looking at the keys. Similarly, one has to follow the rules and regulations of devotional service as they are set down by the spiritual master; then one can come to the point of spontaneous loving service”.

 

This love is already there within the heart of everyone (nitya-siddha krishna-prema). http://caitanyacaritamrta/.

com/madhya/22/...

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna consciousness is dormant in everyone's heart, and when one comes in contact with devotees, it is awakened. Krishna consciousness is not artificial. Just as a young boy awakens his natural attraction for a young girl in her association, similarly, if one hears about Krishna in the association of devotees, he awakens his dormant Krishna consciousness”.

Jayapataka Swami - "The Caitanya-caritamrta describes that pure love of Godhead can never be obtained externally, but it is internally present within us. It is simply covered over. By clearing the contamination covering the heart that love of God will arise. But how do you cleanse the heart? By sravanadi-by hearing and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra.

 

Everyone in the world is already Krishna conscious.

 

In the context of this understanding, we don't convert anyone. It is just a question of removing the covering. Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita that everyone is Krishna conscious, but that there are different stages of ignorance. Some are covered like the embryo in the womb, some are like smoke covering a fire and some like dust on a mirror. Living beings like animals in the gross mode of ignorance are like the child in the womb—completely covered. Those who are in the mode of passion are like the smoke covering the fire. The fire is there, but because of the smoke we cannot see it clearly. And others, who are only slightly covered, are like the dusty mirror. By wiping off the dust you can see things as they are.

So everyone is already a member of this movement. Everyone is already internally related to Krishna. It is only a question of purifying the mind of all materialistic contamination. Then, freed from all materialistic misconception, we can realize Krishna as our eternal master and shelter". From the book "Vaishnava Khe? by Jayapataka Swami

Also, even though one can enter the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya as a spark of inactive effulgence, this state of temporary dreaming inactive or comatose consciousness is not ones original or perpetual fullness.

The fullness of the jiva soul is sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA or ones nitya-siddha-svarupa bodily identity that is eternally situated in Goloka or Vaikuntha beyond of mundane concept of divided time that only exists within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Only ones nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva. It is only after much struggle trapped in ethereal and biological vessels, ones nitya-baddha consciousness may find the mistaken illusionary freedom within the impersonal characteristic of ones marginal consciousness known as the collective (along with other nitya-baddha consciousnesses) impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha. Individuality is never lost within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti nor is the connection to ones original authentic nitya-siddha bodily self ever broken, it is only forgotten.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal svarupa Krishna Conscious body, which is ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ nitya-baddha secondary conscious state is nothing other than a dreaming phenomenon emanating from ones ‘imperishable’ marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha personality.

Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned" Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada – "Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a... Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under--...That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada – “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album 1966)

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord.

 

Every living being. . . has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa.

 

By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one’s constitutional position . . . We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity . . .

 

The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Introduction to Bhagavad-gita asa it is,

 

Srila Prabhupada: “Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason....

 

Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy...

 

It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. This illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna. That’s all. It is...

 

In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Krsna and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us”.

So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation.

 

 

In our original situation we were with Krsna in Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up Krsna.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, or the Viraja River, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed relationship with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada repeats these points throughout his lectures lecture

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream.

Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness.

As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with— I am simply Krsna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated.

Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable.

Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. “Oh, Krsna is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all.

This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming.

 

 

Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming.

 

We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly”

The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

 

[Sarva gattah]

Trivikrama: Srila Prabhupada? You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read ...

Prabhupada: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, “Oh, tiger is there.” It is simply dreaming condition.

Trivikrama: But so many Vaisnavas are praying...

Prabhupada: So as soon as you understand that “This is not... I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .

Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen...

Prabhupada: That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of maya. You see?

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada: "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud.

There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya.

This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you.

You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

[Vedesu]

 

I'm a wisened, grizzled, veteran armchair philosopher and I can "out-Muni" you and anyone here everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Look.... all I'm doing is taking statements of Srila Prabhupada about the origin of the soul and about how our fallen condition is like a dream, mixing them together, extrapolating and inventing a new philosophy and then packaging it with Srila Prabhupada's face on the label. What's the big deal? If you got a problem with that, you need to watch more CSPAN.

[Kulapavana]

after 23 pages of discussion some people still think:

 

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION in teachings of SP on this issue! just accept my point of view and it will be clear that black is white and white is black

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Only ones nitya-baddha secondary mundane consciousness enters the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

It is only after much struggle trapped in ethereal and biological vessels, ones nitya-baddha consciousness may find the mistaken illusionary freedom within the impersonal characteristic of ones marginal consciousness, similtaniously known as the collective dormant dreamless (along with other nitya-baddha consciousnesses) impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

 

Individuality is never lost within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti nor is the connection to ones original authentic nitya-siddha bodily self ever broken, it is only forgotten like one forgets ones present body while dreaming.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

“The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two conditions or states of consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of consciousness is eternally in a bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self. The covered state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is actually the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that forgets their perpetual or endless nitya-siddha bodily self serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva. In other words the free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either with Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation), or merged as a dormant state of individual consciousness. This characteristic of individual consciousness formulates their nitya-baddha perceptiveness appear like a ‘spark of effulgence’ that IS, along with other dormant nitya-baddha consciousnesses, the collective Impersonal feature we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. This is what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti really is – simply the marginal living entities inferior nitya-baddha consciousness existing in a dormant inactive dreamless state of awareness.

This Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is also a temporary dreaming dreamless state. In other words this Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is the temporary dreaming dreamless state of the marginal living entity.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”.

Also there is no suggestion that the original (nitya-siddha) position is ever “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free ‘svarupa’ condition that is different from the final perpetual liberated position because ones ‘svarupa’ is always in Goloka and never leaves, we cannot say therefore we are not with Krishna when our true identity is always with Krishna even if we are not aware of this fact.

This is because as soon as we choose to try to become Lord, Maya immediately covers us due to activating our inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, forgetting our ‘Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha svarupa’ perpetual identity that is eternally there in Krishna Lila. In this way we enter the mahat-tattva as the inferior nitya-baddha lower self, unaware of our original position in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya within the mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations within the mahat-tattva are coming and going.

Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness and wakes up from their nitya-baddha condition and realizes their nitya-siddha body.

Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

The idea that we were always conditioned is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, “Formerly we were with Krishna in His lila, or sport.” LETTER TO Australian devotees 1972

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal svarupa Krishna Conscious body, which is ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ nitya-baddha secondary conscious state is nothing other than a dreaming phenomenon emanating from ones ‘imperishable’ marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha personality.

Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned" Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada – "Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a... Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – "Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under--...That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

ALL marginal living entities have a two fold consciousness;

 

 

One is the nitya-siddha perpetual body which is the real permanent fullness of all marginal living entities, being their genuine svarupa personality, identity and bodily form in Goloka in the perpetual present, while the other is the inferior nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming non-Krishna consciousness, that can only exists in divided time of past, present and future in the mahat-tattva. Or unaware of past, present and future in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti condition of consciousness.

This inferior nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness exists at the same time as ones nitya-siddha body; yet in a different dimensions of time, (the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka adjacent to the ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva’) actually there is never a time when the nitya-siddha-svarupa body did not exist as its originally fullness serving Krishna.

Just like one is dreaming in their present and so absorbed in those dreams that they forget their present body, in a similarly way the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness is the dreaming state of the marginal living entity when they forget their nitya-siddha body. Such nitya-baddha dreams are out of sync with the eternal time their nitya-siddha body serves Krishna in which is also known as the ‘perpetual present’.

When the nitya-baddha consciousness extends from ones constitutional nitya-siddha marginal identity, it enters into the mahat-tattva (material creation) and into the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. The nitya-baddha consciousness is then provided first with an ethereal or celestial containment and then eventually the further covering of biological vessels so one can seek out their independent desires and dreams.

All ethereal and biological bodily vessels in the mahat-tattva are like ornaments and decorations that are part and parcel of a lounge room or house.

 

In a related way such vessels or containers that carry the nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva soul, are also permanent fixtures that not only decorate the mahat-tattva, but ARE the mahat-tattva or material creation.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

MORE REVELATIONS FROM THE SECRET BOOK OF THE JIVA SOULS ORIGINS

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that the jivas come under the influence of maya “only when they forget their natural function as Krsna’s servitors.”

 

Srila Prabhupada says we have forgotten our relationship as Krsna’s eternal servants, Srimad-Bhagavatam says it, and now we find Bhaktivinoda Thakura saying the same thing. So guru, sastra, and sadhu are in agreement on this fundamental point.

Just as God has His Svarupa Vigraha, so Jiva has eternal chit Vigraha. That chit body is manifested in Vaikuntha. Being in material world, it is hidden under two coverings . . . . The conceit [the dictionary meaning of conceit is “thought”] of chit body of Jiva which was existent prior to its contact with matter is just and natural. But after the contact with matter, the conceit of self has become foreign and unjust. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, pp. 156-157]

The jiva has chosen to forget that he is the eternal servitor of Krsna; for this fault Maya has tied him at the neck. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 44]

“Jiva takes recourse to chit

i.e. transcendental everlasting time in Vaikuntha”

But many cannot understand distinctly how karma has no beginning. Time pertaining to matter is only material reflection of chit-time and is a material thing suited to the performance of karma. Jiva takes recourse to chit i.e. transcendental everlasting time in Vaikuntha, where there is no past and future; only the present exists.

 

When Jiva in bondage enters in material time [it] becomes subject to past, future and present and, being server of Trikala, suffers pleasure and pain.

 

Material time originating from Chit kala and Chit kala having no beginning, the origin of Jiva’s Karma—i.e., aversion to God—is coming even prior to material time. Therefore judged impartially with regard to Jadakala, the root of Karma lies prior to this time and therefore Karma has been designated as Anadi, i.e. without any beginning. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam p. 158]

The reason of the jiva’s bondage is the forgetfulness of his essential svarupa as servant of God. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 160]

 

“When he forgets Krsna he is averse to serve Krsna”

This translation of the Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktivinoda Thakura quotes Lord Caitanya from Caitanya-caritamrta:

The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krsna as their nitya-siddha-svarupa origin. A Jiva as the nitya-baddha-consciousness exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity.

 

In other words when one chooses to forget Krsna, one is unwilling to serve Krsna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the selfish nitya-baddha conscious condition to exist.

 

The nitya-baddha consciousness originates from his nitya-siddha body that has no beginning as it dates perpetually before his nitya-baddha manifestation within the mahat-tattva, divided time and space. (Jaiva Dharma, p. 8)

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)

[Vedesu]

 

Pyle!!! Ten HUT!!! It is so VERY hard for me to believe that just trying to use one's personal intelligence to decypher one's eccentric gobbly-dook is so incredibly taxing and exhausting! Perhaps my ever-so-long attendance in this transient madness is the key of understanding which is hidden under our numerous rocks??? Of course, none are to blame for not having the buried clue. Even the Wild Man of Borneo whom I dined with last week found to his and my amazement that we were on the very same page on our world assessments (including global warming), what to speak of the soul's origin. Narcissism, that crazy li'l unknowner which will belittle everything else we have ever known will upset all systems on which humans depend for organization. Begging the question, does one go it solo or will altruistic team work begin for survival's sake? Or do we have more in common than those trite aspects which seperate us? Pyle??! What sayeth you!!! Pyle!!! Ten HUT!!!

[Beggar]

Dear Administrator, It is I Beggar who posted numerous absurd posts on this thread, essentially rattling Sarva gattah's cage. This in turn caused him to quite rapidly post a ton of pre-written posts. We should ask him if he likes his cage rattled, maybe it inspires him. As for myself I was totally obsessed all morning and even forgot to take my bath. Now one thing about deleting my ridiculous posts is that now no one will know what inspired Sarva gattah to make around 50 posts in one day. In fact this may be the record. Anyway I must admit that I am addicted to this thread. I quit my job and left my family, just so I can sit in front of this computer all day and wait for another post from Sarva gattah so that I can respond. Hari bol

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

 

Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. lecture washington DC Temple 1976

 

[BhaktiK]

Krishna has a halo around his face when he walks along the riverbank of the Yamuna in Vrindaban.

 

The halo is Brahman. Brahman exists in Vaikuntha.

[Sarva gattah]

It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna’s lila.

 

By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements.

 

The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna’s lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna because his perpetual nitya-siddha bodily form is permantly in Goloka. In the same way, we are never out of GOLOKA, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere in the mahat-tattva or material impermanant creation.

[Admin5]

Most likely, there is nothing new to be said on this topic. If anyone wants to, they could post, or repost, what they think best explains their understanding.

 

Anybody who wants to do this, please limit yourself to no more than three posts (per person ) (from this point on) and then the thread will be closed.