No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. (baddha jiva) And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position (siddha jiva).

There are two conditions or states of consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha.

 

The free state of consciousness is eternally in a bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self.

The covered state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is actually the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that forgets their perpetual or endless nitya-siddha bodily self serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva.

 

This Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is also a temporary dreaming dreamless state.

 

In other words this Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is the temporary dreaming dreamless state of the marginal living entity.

[Sarva gattah]

In other words the free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation), or merged as a dormant state of individual consciousness (only after going through mahat-tattva bodily vessels).

 

This dormant characteristic of individual consciousness formulates their nitya-baddha perceptiveness appear like a ‘spark of effulgence’ that IS, along with other dormant nitya-baddha consciousnesses, the collective Impersonal feature we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

This is what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti really is – simply the marginal living entities inferior nitya-baddha consciousness existing in a dormant inactive dreamless state of individual awareness.

[gHari]

Sarva gattah, thank you for finding so many relevant quotes of Srila Prabhupada. This thread has become a valuable resource.

[bhaktajan]

The first birth of a Jiva in the material Brahmanda is the birth of Brahma, the great-great grand father of all the living entities.

 

Krsna is the seed giving father of all living entities.

 

Brahma was 'very pious' and thus his birth--he was given the Vedas directly from Krsna's Mouth--he still is subject to thinking he is independent from Krsna [due to association with the material world en toto].

 

Brahma's piety and position in the material world is not so advantageous to the Jiva's destiny.

 

The first born being in the material world came first before other souls were born.

 

"The spirit soul has real, living responsiblities to perform in the spiritual world" but now as long "as the spirit soul manipulates the dead matter of the material world--the material world appears to be alive"

 

The spirit soul is what activates and moves the material elements. The Brahmajyoti is the covered illumination of God's all-prevassive presence.

 

The soul acquires his human position from pious acts that have acculturated the soul to a material body with responsibilities.

 

Now get to work,

Bhaktajan

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The safest thing is to follow Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

So somebody might say the Sastras and Acaryas say souls are eternally conditioned, but we can always say with complete confidence, yes, that might be true, yet at the same time it can also be said with equal confidence that such souls have forgotten their eternal service to Krishna and thus become conditioned.

The way that the contradiction is resolved, is the way that Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Prabhupada, and others have done, by saying that the conditioning is called nitya, because it took effect outside material time, which is divided into past, present, and future.

Everything said by Srila Prabhupada is completely in line with the parampara system.

 

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

1. We can confidently say that the soul is constitutionally the eternal servant of Krishna. (Nitya-siddha)

2. The jiva soul has minute independence. (That allows their nitya-baddha consciousness)

3. The jiva soul, although eternally the servant of Krishna, is eternally jiva tatastha that means one can always choose between the Vaikuntha and the mahat-tattva material energies (that can lead to a further choice of entering the dormant Brahman effulgence.

4. The jiva soul that exercises its independence properly remains with Krishna.

5. The jiva soul that misuses its independence is placed in the material world.

6. Such conditioned souls can be said to be eternally conditioned, because the inner event that led to their conditioning took place outside the material time, with its divisions of past, present, and future, so originally all living entities are eternally nitya-siddha.

[BhaktiK]

King Yudhisthira:

 

For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall into this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this. (SB 7.1.34)

 

 

The sanskrit shows something more:

 

hari-dāsābhimarśanaḥ aśraddheya ivābhāti harer ekāntināḿ bhavaḥ

 

Hari-dasa (the devotees of Hari) ābhimarśanah (being overcome) aśraddheya (defeating their faith [sRADDHA]) iva (as if) ābhāti (it appears) hareḥ (of Hari) ekāntinām (of those exclusively devoted as exalted attendants) bhavaḥ (taking birth in a material body)

 

i.e.

"It appears that the faith of the exclusively devoted attendants of Visnu is crushed and they had to take birth in the material world after being cursed by impersonalist sages who had never had darshan of Narayana"

[BhaktiK]

C'est Iskcon malheureux favorise une philosophie aliénée qui empoisonne la terre où nous essayons de prêcher.

[Vedesu]

 

 

 

 

Je ne veux pas tenter d'entrer dans un supposé "parfait" royaume où les résidents ont tendance à avoir des cauchemars infernale qui durera pour une durée de vie de Brahma. Existe-t-il un autre endroit plus élevé que Goloka que je peux aspirer , où les mal rêves ne se produisent pas?

[BhaktiK]

Yes Vedesu, if their philosophy is true then maybe souls need to search for a world higher than Goloka since the souls in Goloka have painful dreams and see themselves burning in the inferno.

 

But their philosophy is false....

[Beggar]

Now Sarva gattah is using the quotes that seem to show that jivas fall from the Vaikunthas (for preaching purposes). Then if confronted with the Bhagavatam statements by Srila Prabhupada that no one falls from Vaikuntha, he barrages us with things like,

 

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha and is always in Goloka.

 

I guess that you can use the doctrine of simultaneous oneness and difference to justify any sort of gobbly-gook concoction (if you like taking big risks).

[gHari]

Hey you guys, you've already used up your three bullets. It is in the hands of the jury now.

 

I'll use my second last bullet to call to the witness stand, Monsieur Babaji:

<blockquote>Vrajanatha: That is a wonderful conclusion! I wish to hear the evidence the Vedas give for it. The words of the Supreme Lord (Bhagavad-gita) are worthy evidence by themselves. However, when they are supported by the words of the Upanisads, they are more easily accepted by the people in general.

 

Babaji: These truths are revealed in many passages of the Vedas. I will recite one or two of them. Please listen carefully. In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.2.20 and 4.3.9) it is said:

 

"As tiny sparks fly from a fire, so all individual souls have come from the Supreme."

 

"A person has two places: the spiritual world and the place where the spiritual world meets another world. There is also a third place, a place of dreams. Standing between them, the soul sees on one side the spiritual world and on the other side the place of dreaming."

 

This passage describes the individual soul's (jiva-sakti), which can reside in either the spiritual or material worlds (tatastha). In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18) it is also said:

 

"As a large fish in a river may go to one shore or the other, so a person may go to one world or another. He may go to a world where he is awake, or may go to a world made of dreams."

 

Vrajanatha: How does the Vedanta philosophy define the word "tatastha?"

 

Babaji: The place where a river's waters meet with the land of the shore is called the 'tata'. The 'tata' is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this 'tata'? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A 'tata' is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it . In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the 'tata'. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-sakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-sakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-sakti of Lord Krsna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit).

 

Vrajanatha: What is this 'tatastha' nature of the individual souls?

 

Babaji: Standing between them, the soul can see these two worlds. The 'tatastha' nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the 'tata' (shore may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land. If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krsna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krsna's spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krsna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya's trap. That is what is meant by 'the soul's tatastha nature'. </blockquote>

[Beggar]

 

 

Redemption Values

BY: JAGABANDHU DASA

 

Feb 26, FORT WHITE, FLORIDA (SUN) —

Srila Saraswati Thakur enjoins all of Mahaprabhu's true followers for all time to not become discouraged or disappointed by the fact that most souls of this world do not approach the Supreme Deity of Absolute Affection without selfish motivations. Indeed, the sophists and professional religionists of this world are pre-occupied with their own perceived so-called redemption and a reputed place in "heaven." As a secondary consideration to "cement" or "insure" their own alleged position of ostensible spiritual priory, such

dharma-dvajis

presume to market rubber-stamped religiosity to the masses, "selling" a dubious salvation which they themselves are unable to deceitfully achieve. With little real help to the countless suffering souls of this world.

 

Without genuine inner conviction, professional religionists require continual external validation of their own apparent belief system in order to facilitate their deficit of real faith and true awakened understanding of

jaiva-dharma

, the real inner and ultimate religion of all souls. Fear and superstition are used as tools to contrive a socialized redemption of the masses. Instead of even a semblance of salvation, what results is a slave pen of superstitious fear wherein the ecclesiastical collective are controlled by their own terror of failing to achieve "officially" approved "divine" deliverance in order to 'escape' the results of their own misdeeds. Such "redemption values" are the heart and soul of organized "religion."

 

From the true followers of Srila Saraswati Thakur and their genuinely Transcendental Mood we can understand that such mercenary transactions in the name of spirituality are not the real religion of unalloyed devotion, as perfectly exemplified by the

suddha-bhakta

.

 

• "Personally, I have no hope for any direct service for the coming crores of births of the sojourn of my life, but I am confident that some day or other I shall be delivered from this mire of delusion in which I am at present so deeply sunk. Therefore, let me with all my earnestness pray at the Lotus feet of my Divine Master to allow me to suffer the lot for which I am destined due to my past misdoings, but to let me have this power of recollection; that I am nothing but a tiny servant of the Almighty Absolute Godhead, realized through the unflinching Mercy of my Divine Master. Let me therefore bow down at His Lotus Feet with all the humility at my command."
  
  
  (Excerpted from a speech given by Abhay Charan Das - Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada in February 1936, before the members of the Sri Gaudiya Math in Bombay, on the Occasion of the Appearance Day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur)
  
  

 

 

[BhaktiK]

Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Fifteen

 

 

Vrajanatha: Another time a brahmana pandita of Nabadwip said that only the individual soul exists. In a dream he experiences material happiness and suffering. When he wakes up from the dream, he discovers that he is Brahman. What does this mean?

 

Babaji: That is also impersonalism. Brahman has a dream and becomes the individual soul? What proof do they have for that? The scriptures give the examples of mistaking the glittering on a seashell's surface for silver and mistaking a rope for a snake, but these examples do not prove the impersonalist idea that Brahman alone exists. These words are only a great network of word-jugglery meant to bewilder the people in general.

 

Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

 

Babaji: No. The cit-shakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krishna's potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-shakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krishna's jiva-shakti. The cit-shakti is Lord Krishna's complete potency (purna-shakti). The individual souls (jiva-shakti) are counted among Lord Krishna's incomplete potencies (apurna-shakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested.

[Vedesu]

 

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

 

"Never forget" would also apply to to the dreams of a pure devotee.

 

 

Mahavisnu, the incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the jiva-sakti as Paramatma, reveals the jiva-souls of the mundane world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's grace they get shelter under the Hladini (bliss-giving) element of the cit-sakti, they are liable to be overcome by maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 216)

 

 

Mundane existence is itself a kind of fear because in all mundane bodies the effects of birth, death, old age and disease always keep a living being compact in fear. In the mundane world, there is always the influence of time, which changes things from one stage to another, and the living entity originally being avikara, or unchangeable, suffers a great deal on account of changes due to the influence of time. The changing effects of eternal time are conspicuously absent in the immortal kingdom of God, which should therefore be understood to have no influence of time and therefore no fear whatsoever. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

 

"No fear whatsoever" would also apply to the dreams of the pure devotees who reside in Goloka.

 

 

. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

 

"Never falls" means exactly that: never, which includes nap time.

 

 

Where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge... ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy–are completely absent. (Cc. Madhya 5.22, purp.)

 

Which again, applies not only to the waking state, but sleep, naps, snaps, dreams, daydreams, nightdreams...

 

 

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

 

Which means that even though love is based upon free will, pure devotees never misuse free will. Only non-devotees or weak devotees misuse free will.

 

 

The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. (Bhag. 1.8.23, purp.)

 

 

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, 6th paragraph)

[Ashvatama]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by gHari

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya 22.10

 

"Pure love for KRSNa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens

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Quote:CCC

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COMMENTARY (Srila Vishvanatha Cackravarti Thakur)

 

 

The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the materal body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream.

 

Of course, materal nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

 

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