No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[suchandra]

 

that is not my experience from talking to people. and besides, this is not a simple issue.

 

IMO insisting on using only dogmatic statements and pretending that there is no contradictions does a lot more damage than an open and honest debate.

 

and if there is an issue that seriously undermined our credibility, it is the guru issue and the nasty debates among devotees on this subject.

Let's be honest, even if there would be an one voice answer - are present Vaishnava institutions considered as authoritative contact point to get answers about the Vedas? This is past and lost for the next decades. And the very fact that devotees are debating such issues although there's no light to be seen at the end of the tunnel, speaks for itself. Severe case of loss of reality, or how is this called?

[Kulapavana]

 

Severe case of loss of reality, or how is this called?

 

Severe case of losing touch with reality?

 

Yes, very much so, I'm afraid. Too much pride, too much ego... it is hard to learn under such condition.

[Beggar]

 

Let's be honest, even if there would be an one voice answer - are present Vaishnava institutions considered as authoritative contact point to get answers about the Vedas? This is past and lost for the next decades. And the very fact that devotees are debating such issues although there's no light to be seen at the end of the tunnel, speaks for itself. Severe case of loss of reality, or how is this called?

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.38

jānanta eva jānantu

kiḿ bahūktyā na me prabho

manaso vapuṣo vāco

vaibhavaḿ tava go-caraḥ

SYNONYMS

jānantaḥ — persons who think they are aware of Your unlimited potency; eva — certainly; jānantu — let them think like that; kim — what is the use; bahu-uktyā — with many words; na — not; me — my; prabho — O Lord; manasaḥ — of the mind; vapuṣaḥ — of the body; vācaḥ — of the words; vaibhavam — opulences; tava — Your; go-caraḥ — within the range.

TRANSLATION

There are people who say, "I know everything about Kṛṣṇa." Let them think that way. As far as I am concerned, I do not wish to speak very much about this matter. O my Lord, let me say this much: As far as Your opulences are concerned, they are all beyond the reach of my mind, body and words.

PURPORT

This translation is quoted from Śrīla Prabhupāda's Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līla, Chapter Twenty-one, Text 27.

[matarisvan]

 

Let's be honest, even if there would be an one voice answer - are present Vaishnava institutions considered as authoritative contact point to get answers about the Vedas? This is past and lost for the next decades. And the very fact that devotees are debating such issues although there's no light to be seen at the end of the tunnel, speaks for itself. Severe case of loss of reality, or how is this called?

 

There are many Vaishnava Institutions which are authoritative contact points for any of the 3 Vedas.

 

Melkote, Srirangam, Kumbakonam, Udipi to name a few. There are several accomplished fully qualified Gurus there who know all the answers.

[Beggar]

 

There are many Vaishnava Institutions which are authoritative contact points for any of the 3 Vedas.

 

Melkote, Srirangam, Kumbakonam, Udipi to name a few. There are several accomplished fully qualified Gurus there who know all the answers.

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.38, Lord Brahma, the head of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya speaking,

 

 

There are people who say, "I know everything about Kṛṣṇa." Let them think that way. As far as I am concerned, I do not wish to speak very much about this matter. O my Lord, let me say this much: As far as Your opulences are concerned, they are all beyond the reach of my mind, body and words.

[Beggar]

<center> http://gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/nmj_articles/vyasa_knows.html

Vyasa May Know or May Not Know </center>

Question: Shri Vedavyasa compiled/composed the Bhagavatam prior to Shukadeva Gosvami's recital of it. Are we to understand that He omitted Radharani's name in His composition, knowing that Shukadeva would speak it to Maharaja Parikshit in a mere 7 days? (H. Krishna Susarla)

Narasingha Maharaja: Actually Vyasadeva may or may not know what he has said in the Bhagavat (referring to the innumerable verses containing the name of Srimati in the rasik or hidden way). There is a famous verse in this connection: (This verse may be found in the Madhya-lila, Ch24, Tx313, or in the Gaudiya Kanthahara 2.27)

<center> aham vedmi suko vetti, vyaso vetti na vetti va

bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam, na buddhya na ca tikaya </center> Lord Siva said; "I know the meaning of the Bhagavat and I know that Sukadeva knows it also. But for Vyasadeva he may or may not know it. The Bhagavat can only be known through bhakti, not by mundane intelligence or by reading many commentaries."

This rather interesting sloka is spoken by Lord Siva himself in addressing an assembly of Sankarites at Banaras. The second line of the sloka is an admonishment to the misguided followers of Sankaracharya and the first line of the sloka is the siddhanta accepted by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as regards the position of the guru, i.e., relative or absolute.

When Sridhar Swami wrote his commentary on the Bhagavat it was rejected by the Sankarites of Banaras due to the bhakti content and the acceptance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as parabrahma. However, Sripad Sridhar Swami was vastly learned in the Vedanta etc., and thus the Sankarites could not refute his arguments. Nonetheless, because Sridhar Swami's opinion did not stride alongside that of the established institution of the advaitic school, the Sankarites would not accept it.

Lastly the Sankarites proposed what seemed to be an impossible test. They suggested that the Bhagavat commentary of Sridhar Swami be placed in the temple of Viswanatha over night and if Lord Shiva accepted the commentary, then, so would they.

Sridhar Swami was a saranagata-bhakta, a fully surrendered soul who had embraced the ashraya-tattva, i.e., the shelter of the Supreme Lord. Therefore he agreed to the test with the faith within that his destiny was in good hands.

The Bhagavat, with commentary, was placed in the temple of Lord Visvanatha for the night and when the doors of the sanctum-sanctorium were opened in the morning this verse was revealed:

<center> aham vedmi suko vetti, vyaso vetti na vetti va

bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam, na buddhya na ca tikaya </center> Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has accepted the first line of this sloka which says that the position of the guru is relative not absolute. The disciple may see him as absolute, that is another thing, but not others or more importantly he does not see himself as absolute.

In this regard Sriman Mahaprabhu spoke to Sanatana Goswami;

 

Sanatana, Krishna is going to give His kindness to you through me. I am talking to you like a madman. I feel many things are passing through me to you. But I do not know that I myself have the thing.

 

So the verse;

<center> aham vedmi suko vetti, vyaso vetti na vetti va

bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam, na buddhya na ca tikaya </center> is accepted at least in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya as authoritative. What has passed through Srila Vyasadeva may or may not be known to him.

There is another thread found here in connection with Lord Siva. Sambhuh, Lord Siva, is one of the twelve Mahajanas.

<center> svayambhur naradah sambhuh kumarah kapilo manuh

prahlado janako bhismo balir vaiyasakir vayam </center> Narada, Sambhu, and vaiyasakir, Sukadeva Goswami have got special connection with madhurya-rasa in Vrindavana. Sukadeva Goswami was the suka, parrot of Srimati. Narada Muni got gopi-swarupa near Govardhan, and Lord Siva also got gopi-swarupa for dancing in rasa-lila.

When Lord Siva was bathed by the gopis in a sacred kund in Vrindavana to get his gopi-swarupa he emerged with the snake still wrapped around his neck. Some say that the snake which is always seen on the neck of Siva is Ananta, his guru.

Rather than be a direct participant in the rasa-lila, Siva was then given the position of the protector of the rasa-lila and thus his name; Gopeswara Mahadeva.

The most esoteric erotic principle of Divine Love reaches its pinnacle in the tenth canto of the Bhagavat. Those who are conscious of the ontology of events in the tenth canto are given at times to call the Bhagavat by the name, Radha Bhagavat.

Lord Siva was to some degree privy to that which took place in rasa-lila. It so happened that some "time" later in the brahma-loka Lord Siva was reciting the Vrindavana-lila to Parvati and Srimati's suka was present there. Thinking that the parrot would repeat the sacred Bhagavat here and there without any realization, and thus cheapening the context of the Bhagavat, Lord Siva decide to kill the poor bird. The rest we have heard in the Sriya Suka article. The parrot flew, with Siva in quick pursuit, to the ashram of Vyasadeva and entered the mouth of the wife of Vyasadeva. That is what the Gaudiyas call "Divine Conception".

So in this sense, the practical sense, Lord Siva knows that Suka knows the meaning of the Bhagavat (particularly tenth canto) - he heard it directly from the vision of Siva who was there in his gopi-swarupa and we can also safely conclude that he heard what went on there in the erotic pastimes of rasa-lila from Srimati the Illustrious Queen of Vrindavana.

<center> aham vedmi suko vetti, vyaso vetti na vetti va </center>

 

I know, Suka knows, but Vyasadeva - he may or may not know.

 

Vyasadeva may not have been aware that he hid the name of Srimati so he went there on the banks of the Ganga with all the assembled sages to hear Sukadeva Goswami in order to find out.

 

[CCC]

I would like to know what the bible, the book of mormon and the quoran says about the fall of the jiva. At this moment Reading the book of mormon the fall of the jiva is like the fall of jaya and viyaja, all is a pastime. Some elders came to my house and explain me how and why we were here and is like what Srila Prabhupada have said. I will start again reading the Christian Books

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I will start again reading the Christian Books

 

Another victim of post-Prabhupada ISKCON.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I will start again reading the Christian Books

 

I just downloaded the Gutenberg (free) ebook of St. Augustine's "Confessions" today. I want to reread it (having read it in college) for the purpose of presenting some of Augustine's conclusions in some discussions I've been having with some Christians.

[Vigraha]

 

Why is Krishna blue? Clearly there are contradictory statements. But who cares, looks like people live quite happily with all these contradictions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

suchandra PRABHU, YOU ARE AN INSPIRING SOUL.

 

As a famous musical duo who also chanted Hare Krishna wrote and sang,

 

 

 

 

And when the broken hearted people

Living in the world agree,

There will be an answer, let it be.

For though they may be parted there is

Still a chance that they will see

There will be an answer, let it be.

Let it be, let it be. Yeah

There will be an answer, let it be

 

Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Hare Krishna

 

[suchandra]

 

suchandra PRABHU, YOU ARE AN INSPIRING SOUL.

 

As a famous musical duo who also chanted Hare Krishna wrote and sang,

 

 

 

 

And when the broken hearted people

Living in the world agree,

There will be an answer, let it be.

For though they may be parted there is

Still a chance that they will see

There will be an answer, let it be.

Let it be, let it be. Yeah

There will be an answer, let it be

 

Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Hare Krishna

 

"Well you know we're doing what we can..."

 

 

 

<embed src="

" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425">

 

 

Hope this would be right:

 

"You tell me it's the institution, well, you

know, you'd better free your mind instead

Don't you know it's gonna be

Alright, alright, alright"

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is such a beautiful painting wow!

 

[CCC]

 

Another victim of post-Prabhupada ISKCON.

 

 

so what, the "vedas" are not the only scriptures in the world and if you reject them well that is your problem and your own ignorance, the christian books are very simple and maybe for that reason people is not interested in them because people today are not simple. Even here in southamerica and Tibet there are scriptures which explain EVERYTHING. In Tibet there are lamas who live in secret places in the himalayas and some of them came to Chile and take some scriptures to Tibet, because here incarnated someone like vyasa, this person writed tons of scrolls and some lamas from tibet came to meet him for bringing back some scrolls

[dhaa]

No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva - Or lack thereof

I don't know what Prabhupada taught on this. Prabhupada alone knows his teachings. None can speak for him. Everyone can speak for themself only. Some say he taught X, some Y. Both parties using logical justification, both parties incapable of concluding as they are not the judge of this case.

Though part of we-the-Jivan issue is conclusive and final. In the Vedic community there is no ambiguity about we the Jivas. Yet for some unreasonable and insane cause some insist incorrect and mistaken ideas about we the Jivas. To these some I still extend my love anyway and always.

 

Some claim the fall-theory occurs in Bhagavatam.

 

In 4.25 - 4.28 Sri Narada narrates an allegorical story about the living entity and his friend whom he doesn't know, named Avijnata. Avijnata means the unknown one.

 

According to the Vedic Acaryas, the story speaks of the living entitiy leaving the dormant state with Mahavisnu, the Supersoul, or Avijnata in the story.

 

In the fall theory (mis)interpretaion of the story, the living entity in Vaikuntha, leaves his friend Hari, Whom he doesn't know.

 

{Must have been a similar situation to Myspace. Where you know - or not - there are friends who you add, but you don't know them}

 

The fall theory has the Bhagavatam saying that in Vaikuntha there is sambandha ajnana.

 

Proponents of the Myspace theory also have it that Srila Prabhupada misinterpreted the Bhagavatam in this way. Or gave apasiddhanta in other equivalent words.

 

With no regard for siddhanta(they must be pranking), some supporting the fall theory also invalidly claim that their supposedly 'literal' interpretation of the Bhagavatam story has the living entity falling from Vaikuntha. Not saying their interpretation is literal but, since more importance is given to being literal than to siddhanta; from other verses in the same said story, when taken literally are impersonalism. Since they claim to have 'literal' interpretation, they have subjected themselves to supporting impersonalism occuring in the Bhagavatam. In other words more apasiddhanta.

 

This Myspace fall theory is not very nice to the Srimad Bhagavatam. It has it teaching sambandha ajnana, impersonalism, and being inconsistent with other sastras (sastra asangati.) And not nice to Srila Prabhupada neither.

[Sarva gattah]

 

I don't know what Prabhupada taught on this.

 

Great Acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra; indeed there is absolutely no contradiction in Prabhupada's teachings

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

Prabhupada confirms this as follows

Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state (nitya-siddha) and the final state of liberation, re-establishing ones nitya-siddha identity. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself as nitya-siddha. He creates a dream identity (nitya-baddha). And when one wakes from that dream identity, one is once more in one's original position as one's eternal Krishna Conscious nitya siddha body that is always within the devotional realm of Vaikuntha established within the eternal 'present' of Krishna Lila.

There are two states all living entities can choose to be aware of, the free state (nitya siddha) and the covered state (nitya baddha).

The nitya siddha's are eternally with Krishna. There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is no suggestion that the original free state of nitya siddha is different from the final free state of nitya siddha. It is simply a change of consciousness from the original (In Vaikuntha) to the illusionary (within the mahat-tattva) and the back to the original (or perpetual).

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

To progress in Spiritual life we must clearly understand that we are not these biological vessels nor are we the underlining ethereal vessel (subtle body) that houses the baddha jiva. Such containments belong to the mahat-tattva (material creation) that is ultimately created and facilitated by Maha-Vishnu. Actually this material world and all the physical bodies in it (mahat-tattva) is the dream of Maha-Vishu. We can therefore choose to enter and acquire one of HIS bodily creations if we choose, simply by pursuing our own desires of grandeur and forgetting Krishna and who we really are as nitya-siddha-jiva outside of this temporary mahat-tattva creation, in the process.

The point is WE are NOT these biological vessels. We are not even, what many philosophers refer to as’ on other side’, meaning the ethereal bodies that can appear in a heavenly, hellish or ghostly material reality that is often referred to as sub-space matter and mistaken as spiritual by the less intelligent.

Many religions and spiritual groups, including the Buddhist 'heaven', is simply a higher sub-space aspect of the material creation or mahat-tattva. In other words, one is still contained in a material body which is ethereal on the heavenly planets however, like the rest of the mahat-tattva, that 'heavenly place' is also perishable.

Also it is important to know that the sub-space ethereal vessels (referred to as the subtle body) are ALSO a material reality yet, even though material, such bodies can NEVER be discovered by the grosser material secular biological reality of the mahat-tattva. In other words, one CANNOT see or experience the sub-space ethereal aspect or dimension of the mahat-tattva by using secular space matter, which includes the biological bodily vessel. This means that the electron microscope or the Hubble telescope can never discover sub-space.

And this is just explaining the perishable the material world that is a dark temporary cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

There are also two schools of Vaishnava thought that explain this -

1. 'In the spiritual perpetual world of Vaikuntha, no biological body or its underlining ethereal body does not exist, nor does even the nitya-baddha-jiva impure consciousness subsist that possesses those bodily vessels. This is because the nitya-baddha-jiva consciousness is the temporary imaginary non Krishna Conscious state of the marginal living entity, WHILE our real eternal bodily identity and self, always remains nitya siddha in the eternal ‘present’ beyond the ‘past, present and future’ of the material creation or mahat-tattva'

2. 'Some Vaishnava schools of thought believe the living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, however it is important to understand that they ALSO believe that the marginal living entities ultimate goal is to become eternal servants of Krishna in either Goloka or Vaikuntha and ultimately see this material world, along with both the biological (earthly) and ethereal bodies (that can be heavenly, hellish or ghostly) vessels, as not the real identity of the marginal living entities full SPIRITUAL potential or individual identity. The full potential and eternal constitution of the marginal living entity is in the perpetual legitimate position as an eternal servant of servant of the servant of beautiful Krishna’.

The uninterrupted nature of all living entities is established in their ‘eternal attendance’ within Vaikuntha. It is only there all living entities are perpetually recognized as the eternal servant of Krishna in/as their nitya-siddha bodily constitution. This bodily form can never fall down from Vaikuntha. The nitya-baddha-jiva consciousness however, exists simultaneously as a separate yet non-separated awareness that is only activated when the living entity is unwilling to serve Krishna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self therefore, it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the living entity to imagine, think or dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha. That secondary self or nitya-baddha jiva conscious condition enters within the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given a material form (vessels) by Maha-Vishnu to live out their non-Krishna conscious imagination

Srila Prabhupada - "“Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila”

Therefore ultimately we are eternal nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna and are not from or this material world (mahat-tattva), we are only visitors.

That devotional selfless body is NOT a container, vessel or vehicle, IT IS WHO WE REALLY ARE ETERNALLY AS KRISHNA’S SERVANT.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Envy Rules, Kindly Follow!

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

 

Jan 10, CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) —

For many years now an idea has been bandied about in ISKCON, and only ISKCON, not in any other Vaisnava sampradaya, that the jiva in Goloka-Vrndavana becomes envious of Krsna, and as a result that jiva is cast into the material world where he rotates in the cycle of birth and death for what may be billions of lifetimes of ignorance and misery.

 

Well, so much for krsna-prema! Apparently it is not at all satisfying, Krsna and His devotee regularly give each other up, and the strong tendency is for the soul to wander off from the rasa-lila for pastures anew down there in the jolly material world. Yes, why rotate in the rasa-lila, when one can rotate in the cycle of birth and death?

 

And what’s all this about Krsna being “All-Attractive”. Apparently this is all just empty propaganda. Krsna actually should be known as the Object of Envy, not attraction. And unlimited, unlimited, unlimited jivas in unlimited, unlimited, unlimited universes have come to this conclusion. “I’m outta here! You can keep Goloka and all that ecstasy! I’m off. Thank God for the Maya-shakti!”

 

Sri Krsna, who’s He? Better to change His Name to “Not so All-Attractive.” Or maybe “Temporarily All-Attractive.” What about “Subject to Envy at Home Planet?”

 

What to speak of “Infinitely-Intelligent”. How Krsna can be infinitely intelligent when He’s made a home for Himself wherein billions of souls are becoming envious of Him? Not really a smart thing to arrange when You are the Supreme Controller. Krsna must be very embarrassed to see all those souls becoming envious and rejecting Him in front of Mother Yasoda. Yes, all those remaining faithful servitors, it must plant a doubt in their minds: “Well, there are a lot of souls going to the jolly party down there in the material world. Maybe I should have a look to upgrade my pleasure by becoming a worm in the stool. Someone else can make the garlands. I’m outta here! ”

 

Is not the point clear? If we accept the theory that the soul falls from an established relationship of pure-prema with Sri Krsna, then Krsna and that relationship are not perfect. Rather that relationship is an on/off temporary affair, and Krsna Himself really quite forgettable once jiva is down there in the material world, chewing the chewed.

 

Actually, for the demoniac, this is the appeal of the fall-from-Goloka theory: It is an insult to Krsna, His servitors, and the relationship between them. From this theory, the clear implication is that these three are very much fallacious. Krsna is not All-Attractive, His servitors are not faithful, and bhakti-rasa is neither perfect, nor satisfying, nor permanent. So by propagating this theory, all three are degraded from their sublime transcendental position to secondary categories that have all the material qualities of impermanence and imperfection.

 

Having insulted the Lord, His servitors, and Bhakti-Marg in that way, the demoniac swell with pride. “Who’s going to be Krsna’s devotee now that I have proved it’s all quite mundane up there? I just killed three birds with one stone.”

 

When these demons are countered with the Vedic evidences that this writer has given in his previous posting “No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva”, their response is quite disingenuous: They ignore Vedanta-Sutra, they ignore the Seventh Goswami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, they ignore Bhagavad-Gita, and they ignore Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion:

 

• “The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” Purport, Sb. 3.16.26.
  
  

 

Instead of accepting this statement, and similar multifarious others, as the “conclusion” of Srila Prabhupada and offering their obeisances as defeated, they latch onto the chance to now denigrate Srila Prabhupada. They have already degraded Krsna, His Servitors, and Bhakti, they now see a chance to attack Krsna’s representative in the material world-the Guru and His commentaries. Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are “contradictory”. This proposed vacillation brings into question whether Srila Prabhupada actually knew what he was talking about. “Maybe he wasn’t sure about the jiva issue?” “Therefore maybe the rest of his commentaries are speculative and we need a good editor in there to change things around. Someone from the BBT.”

 

And why stop at the Guru and his commentaries? Why not have a swipe at the Vedas and Puranas, and their compiler Veda-Vyasa? “Apparently”, Veda-Vyasa has not done a very comprehensive job in compiling the Vedas and Their corollaries. Why? Because in all those sastras, Veda-Vyasa forgot to explain that the jiva falls from prema-rasa in Goloka out of envy. In fact, Veda-Vyasa got it all wrong and throughout the Vedas, Vedanta-sutra, and Bhagavad-Gita made the mistake of clearly stating many times that “No-one falls from the Abode of the Lord.”

 

Let this be the challenge to the fool and rascal purveyors of this groundless fall-from-Goloka theory: Kindly provide one description directly from the Vedas of a fall out of envy of the Supreme Lord of the jiva from Goloka Vrndavana…. Just one!

 

We have heard your self-serving contorted misinterpretations of Srila Prabhupada’s statements. So there is no need for more of that. We know your position on that. We know that in of the vast body of Srila Prabhupada’s recorded teachings that there are statements that can be bent in favor of ‘fall from Vaikuntha’. We know that you are good at word-bending and ignoring what doesn’t suit you. In this way you remind us of the mayavadis that will use the Vedas to prove that Krsna is made from maya and that ultimately the Absolute Truth is formless and impersonal. In fact, not only do you use the same ignoring and word-bending as the mayavadis, but also the implications of your theory make a nice fit with the mayavadis: Krsna and relationship with Him are subject to the rule of Maya-devi. It’s all temporary and imperfect.

 

And what is the ultimate implication of this fall from Goloka theory? It is that “Envy of Krsna defeats Love of Krsna, even in Goloka”. Now you see why it is so appealing to the demons: “Apparently”, Envy is the Power!

 

So purveyors, just give one clear and full description from the Vedas and Purana of the residents of Goloka Vrndavana becoming “envious” of Krsna and falling to the material world. We emphasize, because we know you love to bend words and ignore, that the description must be from the original sastras. Is that clear enough? Just one description from the ultimate authority of the Vedas of something that has happened, according to your theory, literally trillions and trillions and trillions of unlimited times!

 

Now even you cannot say the above request is “contradictory”.

 

We invite the biggest in the wobbly ISKCON superstructure to respond with this telling Vedic tale of ‘Envy in Goloka’. It is well known that Hrdyananda Goswami, Jayavaita Swami, Drutakarma dasa, Dravida dasa, Gopi-paranadhana dasa believe this absurd theory.

 

Oh great pandits! Where’s your sastric evidence…….?

 

We hope this is found helpful,

 

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

 

 

[dhaa]

 

 

Envy Rules, Kindly Follow!

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

 

in ISKCON, and only ISKCON, not in any other Vaisnava sampradaya, that the jiva in Goloka-Vrndavana becomes envious of Krsna...

 

 

What are the ramifications for advocating their fairy-tale? Maybe if Iskcon understood the consequences they wouldn't do it. Well, hopefully.

 

 

I got a paycheck, now I'll rip it up and dispose. I'm not mad! I'm not envious, Radha and the gopis are! It is Vaishnava & Shastra aparadha and consequently self aparadha literally. Unbeneficial for any. My dear jivas - time for a new plan! Keep moving forward with spiritual progression. No more one step forward, one step back.

 

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

Even Balavidya dasa, with all his good use of logic, reason, and shastric quotes, can't seem to bring himself to addressing the real reason for the existence of the "fall from Goloka" theory - the need to resove contradictory statements made by Srila Prabhupada on this issue.

 

Like a rabbit who closes his eyes and tells himself that there is no wolf in front of his rabbit hole, Balavidya dasa insists that there are no contradictions in Prabhupada's writings on this subject. It is either lack of courage, lack of honesty, or (most likely) a misplaced sense of loyalty to making sure his guru "is never wrong on anything". This is the very same mentality that makes others invent apa-siddhantic theories that turn sattvic truth into rajasic lies. Balavidya is fighting his own shadow.

[Sarva gattah]

 

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA Jan 10, CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) — For many years now an idea has been bandied about in ISKCON, and only ISKCON, not in any other Vaisnava sampradaya, that the jiva in Goloka-Vrndavana becomes envious of Krsna, and as a result that jiva is cast into the material world where he rotates in the cycle of birth and death for what may be billions of lifetimes of ignorance and misery.

 

Actually its coming from Srila Prabhupada

 

 

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila”

There are also two schools of Vaishnava thought that explain the origin of the jiva

1. 'In the spiritual perpetual world of Vaikuntha, no biological body or its underlining ethereal body does not exist, nor does even the nitya-baddha-jiva impure consciousness subsist that possesses those bodily vessels. This is because the nitya-baddha-jiva consciousness is the temporary imaginary non Krishna Conscious state of the marginal living entity, WHILE our real eternal bodily identity and self, always remains nitya siddha in the eternal ‘present’ beyond the ‘past, present and future’ of the material creation or mahat-tattva'

2. 'Some Vaishnava schools of thought believe the living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, however it is important to understand that they ALSO believe that the marginal living entities ultimate goal is to become eternal servants of Krishna in either Goloka or Vaikuntha and ultimately see this material world, along with both the biological (earthly) and ethereal bodies (that can be heavenly, hellish or ghostly) vessels, as not the real identity of the marginal living entities full SPIRITUAL potential or individual identity. The full potential and eternal constitution of the marginal living entity is in the perpetual legitimate position as an eternal servant of servant of the servant of beautiful Krishna’.

 

We just have to agree that we disagree prabhu's, lets not get angry over this, there are two schools of thought and you guys or me are never going to change that fact. There are fundamentalists on both sides with strong convictions. The abusive hysteria by Balavidya dasa is sad.

[Beggar]

 

Even Balavidya dasa, with all his good use of logic, reason, and shastric quotes, can't seem to bring himself to addressing the real reason for the existence of the "fall from Goloka" theory - the need to resove contradictory statements made by Srila Prabhupada on this issue.

 

Like a rabbit who closes his eyes and tells himself that there is no wolf in front of his rabbit hole, Balavidya dasa insists that there are no contradictions in Prabhupada's writings on this subject. It is either lack of courage, lack of honesty, or (most likely) a misplaced sense of loyalty to making sure his guru "is never wrong on anything". This is the very same mentality that makes others invent apa-siddhantic theories that turn sattvic truth into rajasic lies. Balavidya is fighting his own shadow.

 

First we have to understand why there are contradictory statements. It is not just that Srila Prabhupada was teaching the ABC's and had to therefore simplify things. There are also contradictory statements made on many subjects by the sastras and acaryas. For instance Srila Sridhar Maharaj would note that in his plays, Srila Rupa Goswami never takes Krsna out of Vrndavana but in the writings of Srila Sanatana Goswami, Krsna lila is traced all the way to Mathura. He felt that the Western Philosopher Hegel's "Dialectic" was similar to the Vaisnava conception of harmony. Hegel saw, thesis, the antithesis and eventually synthesis. So synthesis is like the harmonizing factor and the real harmonizer is Sri Krsna in the conception of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu where everything is simultaneously one and different. It just depends on one's angle of vision We can say that the contradictions are "apparent" because they can be harmonized or synthesized. Another might say that because the contradictions are "apparent" only, then in a sense they do not exist. But the problem with this is that we are not acknowledging that there can be angles of vision that are so far apart that they appear to be opposite. Our consolation is that Srila Sridhar Maharaj would say that, "Krsna is the all harmonizing factor."

[Kulapavana]

 

First we have to understand why there are contradictory statements. It is not just that Srila Prabhupada was teaching the ABC's and had to therefore simplify things.

 

Personally I think Srila Prabhupada tried to harmonize GV with Christianity and other Abrahamic religions. The very concept of "Back to Godhead" is the "Return to Eden" concept, and the fall from Goloka idea is a mere consequence of this approach.

 

I doubt that Prabhupada actually believed in that idea himself, and I certainly do not think it was just "sloppy logic" or lack of philosophical consistency on his behalf. It clearly was a deliberate attempt on his behalf to induce people into thinking along these lines. I suspect that deep down Prabhupada truly admired the Abrahamic religions zeal to conquer the world for their religion and tried to use some of their approaches to converting people. Prabhupada was a preacher, through and through. A real "Gita-thumper" so to speak

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Balavidya is fighting his own shadow.

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Maybe because his understanding is a misunderstanding.

Actually the truth for me on this subject is coming from Srila Prabhupada!

 

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila”

 

Live with it prabhu's, these quotes are not going to go away

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Balavidya is fighting his own shadow.

 

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Maybe because his understanding is a misunderstanding.

Actually the truth for me on this subject is coming from Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

 

Prabhu, do you even read my posts? You are a very nice devotee but your grasp of the discussion is tenuous at best.

 

Ever since I came to this forum almost 5 years ago I have been fighting various bogus philosophies that crept up into Iskcon over the years. My approach to the siddhanta is strictly based on sampradaya and tradition. I do not believe that Prabhupada "invented" or "discovered" anything new in terms of our philosophy. If he did, that would make him not quite bona-fide to me, end of story.

[Vedesu]

 

It just depends on one's angle of vision. We can say that the contradictions are "apparent" because they can be harmonized or synthesized. Another might say that because the contradictions are "apparent" only, then in a sense they do not exist.

 

That's where I felt Balavidya prabhu was coming from, not that he lacked courage or was being dishonest. He probably genuinely feels that the conclusions (regarding jiva-tattva) are quite clear, at least to him, that any apparent contradictions have been fully resolved in his heart of hearts. And he does make some valid points about prema, that it cannot be defeated by envy, otherwise that would make envy superiour.

 

Perhaps he's reached a crossroads where all he sees are devotees arguing back and forth non-stop, with seemingly no end in sight, and he simply wants to present Srila Prabhupada's conclusions on the issue as presented in his books, which in the final analysis are supposed to be the ultimate authority. Otherwise the debate just continues perpetually.

 

It's an interesting approach, I feel, and I'm curious to see how it plays out.

[Beggar]

 

Live with it prabhu's, these quotes are not going to go away

 

 

Srila Prabhupada,

In the spiritual world... inhabitants...They're aksara. They do not fall down. Ksara aksara. We are ksaras. We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us. (741105SB.BOM)

And quoted above is a statement that you, prabhu and all of us will have to live with, and this quote and the many others will also not go away.

BALAVIDYA DASA

 

in ISKCON, and only ISKCON, not in any other Vaisnava sampradaya, that the jiva in Goloka-Vrndavana becomes envious of Krsna...

And this means that this enviousness does not occur in Goloka, whether one falls or dreams that they fall.