No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[suchandra]

 

First we have to understand why there are contradictory statements. It is not just that Srila Prabhupada was teaching the ABC's and had to therefore simplify things. There are also contradictory statements made on many subjects by the sastras and acaryas. For instance Srila Sridhar Maharaj would note that in his plays, Srila Rupa Goswami never takes Krsna out of Vrndavana but in the writings of Srila Sanatana Goswami, Krsna lila is traced all the way to Mathura. He felt that the Western Philosopher Hegel's "Dialectic" was similar to the Vaisnava conception of harmony. Hegel saw, thesis, the antithesis and eventually synthesis. So synthesis is like the harmonizing factor and the real harmonizer is Sri Krsna in the conception of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu where everything is simultaneously one and different. It just depends on one's angle of vision We can say that the contradictions are "apparent" because they can be harmonized or synthesized. Another might say that because the contradictions are "apparent" only, then in a sense they do not exist. But the problem with this is that we are not acknowledging that there can be angles of vision that are so far apart that they appear to be opposite. Our consolation is that Srila Sridhar Maharaj would say that, "Krsna is the all harmonizing factor."

Well said, KRSNA is the all harmonizing factor, who also dispels all doubts.

Why Lord Caitanya propagated the chanting and dancing and only wrote Sri Siksastaka?

Because our heads would be always full of contradictory statements?

The opposite is true, one sings and dances when all problems are solved.

 

[Kulapavana]

 

That's where I felt Balavidya prabhu was coming from, not that he lacked courage or was being dishonest. He probably genuinely feels that the conclusions (regarding jiva-tattva) are quite clear, at least to him, that any apparent contradictions have been fully resolved in his heart of hearts.

 

Just because these contradictions (real or apparent) can be resolved in one way or another (we all have seen many attempts), does not make them go way or become something useful or favorable in preaching. Sometimes in preaching activities an idea turns out to be a dead end, or something that clearly outlived it's purpose and now is hurting the mission. Like the idea of giving sannyasa to young neophytes, only to see them crash and burn after few years, making a terrible mess for themselves and the entire mission.

 

Sometimes you have to have guts to cut your losses and move on. Pretending that "nothing happened here" is neither honest nor useful.

[Beggar]

 

Sometimes you have to have guts to cut your losses and move on. Pretending that "nothing happened here" is neither honest nor useful.

 

Apparent contradictions in the precepts or siddhanta is a different thing than contradictions between the absolute conception and the relative consideration. Whether a young man should take sannyasa is a relative consideration. The idea that everything belongs to Krsna and that we should serve Him with mind, body and words is the absolute conception. As Srila Prabhupada said many times that is the real sannyasa.

[Vedesu]

 

Sometimes you have to have guts to cut your losses and move on. Pretending that "nothing happened here" is neither honest nor useful.

 

Perhaps so. But how does this relate to the jiva fall debate? I'm not clear as to what it is that you're proposing. If you're suggesting that the debate should stop altogether, that would of course be nice. But as you alluded to, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. So, what is your proposal for dealing with Drutakarma's sleeper-vada theories which have been spreading all over the net the past few months. Would you prefer that they go unchallenged?

[dhaa]

 

 

Envy Rules, Kindly Follow!

We invite the biggest in the wobbly ISKCON superstructure to respond with this telling Vedic tale of ‘Envy in Goloka’. It is well known that Hrdyananda Goswami, Jayavaita Swami, Drutakarma dasa, Dravida dasa, Gopi-paranadhana dasa believe this absurd theory.

 

Oh great pandits! Where’s your sastric evidence…….?

 

 

Iskcon & their leaders and members have a history of irresponsibility followed with excuse-justifications, very similar to the politics of a corrupt developing nation. Iskcon/GBC always had a lot of problems. At their current rate of progress nothing will improve. But hey, miracles happen everyday all over the World! It is my personal desire to see all spiritually progress and I wish for them all the best.

 

First step is acceptance. Time to take responsibility gbc lest be responsible for more of their own and all Iskcon's spiritual regress.

 

Peace & Creativity

[suchandra]

 

Perhaps so. But how does this relate to the jiva fall debate? I'm not clear as to what it is that you're proposing. If you're suggesting that the debate should stop altogether, that would of course be nice. But as you alluded to, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. So, what is your proposal for dealing with Drutakarma's sleeper-vada theories which have been spreading all over the net the past few months. Would you prefer that they go unchallenged?

 

Looks we have to invite back guruvani, he left us with unanswered questions...

[Kulapavana]

 

Perhaps so. But how does this relate to the jiva fall debate? I'm not clear as to what it is that you're proposing. If you're suggesting that the debate should stop altogether, that would of course be nice. But as you alluded to, this isn't going to happen anytime soon. So, what is your proposal for dealing with Drutakarma's sleeper-vada theories which have been spreading all over the net the past few months. Would you prefer that they go unchallenged?

 

I propose that we honestly discuss all aspect of that issue, including admission that a lot of things Prabhupada said regarding the fall of jiva is not based on shastra or the teachings of the previous acharyas. Right now this the 600 pound gorilla that everybody in the room pretends is not there. Of course that we need to challenge people proposing apa-siddhantic theories but right now we are fighting with one hand tied behind our back.

 

Incidentally the same thing applies to the ritvik debate - devotees fight them with one hand only because they refuse to address the simple fact that Prabhupada had no authority to transform his line in that way even if he indeed wanted to "go ritvik forever".

[suchandra]

 

I propose that we honestly discuss all aspect of that issue, including admission that a lot of things Prabhupada said regarding the fall of jiva is not based on shastra or the teachings of the previous acharyas. Right now this the 600 pound gorilla that everybody in the room pretends is not there. Of course that we need to challenge people proposing apa-siddhantic theories but right now we are fighting with one hand tied behind our back.

 

Incidentally the same thing applies to the ritvik debate - devotees fight them with one hand only because they refuse to address the simple fact that Prabhupada had no authority to transform his line in that way even if he indeed wanted to "go ritvik forever".

 

solved!

 

"After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuṇṭha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuṇṭha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Now, when the spirit soul falls down? Just like Jaya-Vijaya. Jaya and Vijaya became asuras. They fell down from Vaikuṇṭha."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 17.1-3

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Honolulu, July 4, 1974

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/740704BG.HON.htm

[Beggar]

 

solved!

 

"After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuṇṭha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuṇṭha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Now, when the spirit soul falls down? Just like Jaya-Vijaya. Jaya and Vijaya became asuras. They fell down from Vaikuṇṭha."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 17.1-3

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Honolulu, July 4, 1974

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/740704BG.HON.htm

And then unsolved!

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

etau suretara-gatiḿ pratipadya sadyaḥ

saḿrambha-sambhṛta-samādhy-anubaddha-yogau

bhūyaḥ sakāśam upayāsyata āśu yo vaḥ

śāpo mayaiva nimitas tad aveta viprāḥ

SYNONYMS

śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Supreme Personality of Godhead replied; etau — these two doorkeepers; sura-itara — demoniac; gatim — the womb; pratipadya — obtaining; sadyaḥ — quickly; saḿrambha — by anger; sambhṛta — intensified; samādhi — concentration of mind; anubaddha — firmly; yogau — united with Me; bhūyaḥ — again; sakāśam — to My presence; upayāsyataḥ — shall return; āśu — shortly; yaḥ — which; vaḥ — of you; śāpaḥ — curse; mayā — by Me; eva — alone; nimitaḥ — ordained; tat — that; aveta — know; viprāḥ — O brāhmaṇas.

TRANSLATION

The Lord replied: O brāhmaṇas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly.

PURPORT

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuṇṭha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

In Bhagavad-gītā (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhāgavatam

[Beggar]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.1.35

dehendriyāsu-hīnānāḿ

vaikuṇṭha-pura-vāsinām

deha-sambandha-sambaddham

etad ākhyātum arhasi

SYNONYMS

deha — of a material body; indriya — material senses; asu — life breath; hīnānām — of those devoid; vaikuṇṭha-pura — of Vaikuṇṭha; vāsinām — of the residents; deha-sambandha — in a material body; sambaddham — bondage; etat — this; ākhyātum arhasi — please describe.

TRANSLATION

The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.

PURPORT

This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Nārada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired from him, saying, etad ākhyātum arhasi: "only you can explain the reason." From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.

Of course, a living entity who desires sāyujya-mukti remains in Kṛṣṇa's Brahman effulgence, which is dependent on Kṛṣṇa's body (brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham [Bg. 14.27]). Such an impersonalist who takes shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down. This is stated in the śāstra (Bhāg. 10.2.32):

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ

"O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet." The impersonalists cannot reach the Vaikuṇṭha planets to become associates of the Lord, and therefore, according to their desires, Kṛṣṇa gives them sāyujya-mukti. However, since sāyujya-mukti is partial mukti, they must fall again to this material world. When it is said that the individual soul falls from Brahmaloka, this applies to the impersonalist.

From authoritative sources it is learned that Jaya and Vijaya were sent to this material world to fulfill the Lord's desire to fight. The Lord also sometimes wants to fight, but who can fight with the Lord but a very confidential devotee of the Lord? Jaya and Vijaya descended to this world to fulfill the Lord's desire. Therefore in each of their three births — first as Hiraṇyākṣa and Hiraṇyakaśipu, second as Rāvaṇa and Kumbhakarṇa, and third as Śiśupāla and Dantavakra — the Lord personally killed them. In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira says, aśraddheya ivābhāti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuṇṭha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by Nārada Muni as follows.

[suchandra]

 

And then unsolved!

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

etau suretara-gatiḿ pratipadya sadyaḥ

saḿrambha-sambhṛta-samādhy-anubaddha-yogau

bhūyaḥ sakāśam upayāsyata āśu yo vaḥ

śāpo mayaiva nimitas tad aveta viprāḥ

SYNONYMS

śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Supreme Personality of Godhead replied; etau — these two doorkeepers; sura-itara — demoniac; gatim — the womb; pratipadya — obtaining; sadyaḥ — quickly; saḿrambha — by anger; sambhṛta — intensified; samādhi — concentration of mind; anubaddha — firmly; yogau — united with Me; bhūyaḥ — again; sakāśam — to My presence; upayāsyataḥ — shall return; āśu — shortly; yaḥ — which; vaḥ — of you; śāpaḥ — curse; mayā — by Me; eva — alone; nimitaḥ — ordained; tat — that; aveta — know; viprāḥ — O brāhmaṇas.

TRANSLATION

The Lord replied: O brāhmaṇas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly.

PURPORT

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuṇṭha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

In Bhagavad-gītā (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhāgavatam

 

again solved:

 

"Krishna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world. As stated in the Prema-vivarta: krishna-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. This is the reason the pure spirit soul falls down to the material world."

 

http://causelessmercy.com/SB5.14.htm

[Beggar]

 

again solved:

 

"Krishna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world. As stated in the Prema-vivarta: krishna-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. This is the reason the pure spirit soul falls down to the material world."

 

http://causelessmercy.com/SB5.14.htm

 

Off point. The issue is where the fall takes place.

[suchandra]

 

Off point. The issue is where the fall takes place.

 

As soon there's, let's say, envy of Krishna, then one isn't on the spiritual platform anymore.

Yes, when situated in pure devotional service one cannot fall down.

[Kulapavana]

 

solved!

 

"After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuṇṭha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuṇṭha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Now, when the spirit soul falls down? Just like Jaya-Vijaya. Jaya and Vijaya became asuras. They fell down from Vaikuṇṭha."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 17.1-3

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Honolulu, July 4, 1974

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/740704BG.HON.htm

 

 

first of all, Jaya and Vijaya did not fall down from Vaikuntha. They came down to facilitate Lord's leela. It was temporary and volountary.

 

second. they were CURSED to descend to the material world, and did not fall down because they were "envious of Krsna".

 

third. the curse of Kumaras could not touch the inhabitants of Vaikuntha. Lord Narayan facilitated the curse as an excuse, and also so that Kumaras would not look foolish. the curse of the Kumaras had ZERO merit as Jaya and Vijaya were only doing their job.

 

fourth. one extreme exception does not make a rule. how many "fall from Vaikuntha" examples are there in the shastras?

 

using the case of Jaya and Vijaya as a prop for a "we all fell from Vaikuntha" theory works only on very small children.

[suchandra]

 

first of all, Jaya and Vijaya did not fall down from Vaikuntha. They came down to facilitate Lord's leela. It was temporary and volountary.

 

second. they were CURSED to descend to the material world, and did not fall down because they were "envious of Krsna".

 

third. the curse of Kumaras could not touch the inhabitants of Vaikuntha. Lord Narayan facilitated the curse as an excuse, and also so that Kumaras would not look foolish. the curse of the Kumaras had ZERO merit as Jaya and Vijaya were only doing their job.

 

fourth. one extreme exception does not make a rule. how many "fall from Vaikuntha" examples are there in the shastras?

 

using the case of Jaya and Vijaya as a prop for a "we all fell from Vaikuntha" theory works only on very small children.

This you can say about Arjuna too - "after all he only played to be conditioned, but was never fallen". But, still although Arjuna might never been illusioned and played all this being confused - still Krishna wants us to see him as one of us who surrendered and became situated on the spiritual platform. In the same way, Jaya and Vijaya played all this falling down, but still, they are meant to teach us that one can fall from Vaikuntha.

 

"Krishna is very, very kind. He has given you chance because you wanted to come here and enjoy material world. Krishna says, “All right, go."

 

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/670224CC.SF.htm

[Beggar]

 

In the same way, Jaya and Vijaya played all this falling down, but still, they are meant to teach us that one can fall from Vaikuntha.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 Bhaktivedanta Purport,

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord.

[suchandra]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 Bhaktivedanta Purport,

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord.

I don't see a contradiction. Being situated in the spiritual world means that you are fully situated on the transcendental platform of devotional service.

Still, although situated in Vaikuntha loving devotional activities don't work like being performed by a robot, there's always free will. When activating your free will in the wrong way, you aren't on the spiritual platform anymore=you are not in Vaikuntha anymore. Therefore, when falling into the material world, you don't fall from Vaikuntha, in that sense that you aren't situated in pure devotional service anymore.

[Kulapavana]

 

Jaya and Vijaya played all this falling down, but still, they are meant to teach us that one can fall from Vaikuntha.

 

That actually means that there were no REAL fall-downs from Vaikuntha to be used as an example to teach us.

 

there are dozens of scriptural and logical arguments against the possibility of falling down from Vaikuntha, but your only counter-argument is: "because Prabhupada says so"... whatever works for you...

[suchandra]

 

That actually means that there were no REAL fall-downs from Vaikuntha to be used as an example to teach us.

 

there are dozens of scriptural and logical arguments against the possibility of falling down from Vaikuntha, but your only counter-argument is: "because Prabhupada says so"... whatever works for you...

In the same way you can say the whole Kuruksetra situation wasn't real, all staged and reject it as useless to actually instructing us how to become spiritually perfect. But clearly Krishna wants us to see it that way that Arjuna was in maya and needed to be convinced about his spiritual constitution.

Krishna says, first believe it, have faith, as soon you get some taste for devotional service you will realize more and more that you are My very dear, eternal devotee. It is all based upon actual realization.

[suchandra]

Below Balabadra prabhu suggests that in the spiritual world there can't be freewill since the attraction to be with Krishna completely destroys freewill?

 

Prabhupāda: Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Rene Descartes

DESCARTES.HAY

 

Devotee: He says that free will can be essentially eliminated. He says you no longer have the choice to be agreeable or not agreeable.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. That is another foolishness.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda B. F. Skinner

SKINNER.SYA

Swedish guest: Is there free will?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will. Because we are part and parcel of God, God is completely free to do anything. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom. Just like a drop of ocean water, it is also salty, but the quantity of salt in that drop is not equal to the salt in the ocean. Similarly, you have got a little quantity of freedom, but not as freedom as God has got. That is not possible. You are subordinate. Your freedom is subordinate to God’s freedom. Therefore if you misuse your freedom, then you become punishable. The government gives you freedom, but if you misuse your freedom, if you violate the laws, then you are criminal. Yes?

 

Bhagavad-gītā 7.1-3

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Stockholm, September 10, 1973

 

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Why God gave to man free will if He knew the man would fall down in the material world?

Prabhupāda: If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must be, must have free will. But don’t misuse your free will. But don’t try to become stone. That is not life.

 

Bhagavad-gītā 15.15

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)

 

Envy Rules, Kindly Follow!

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

 

Jan 10, CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) —

For many years now an idea has been bandied about in ISKCON, and only ISKCON, not in any other Vaisnava sampradaya, that the jiva in Goloka-Vrndavana becomes envious of Krsna, and as a result that jiva is cast into the material world where he rotates in the cycle of birth and death for what may be billions of lifetimes of ignorance and misery.

 

Well, so much for krsna-prema! Apparently it is not at all satisfying, Krsna and His devotee regularly give each other up, and the strong tendency is for the soul to wander off from the rasa-lila for pastures anew down there in the jolly material world. Yes, why rotate in the rasa-lila, when one can rotate in the cycle of birth and death?

 

And what’s all this about Krsna being “All-Attractive”. Apparently this is all just empty propaganda. Krsna actually should be known as the Object of Envy, not attraction. And unlimited, unlimited, unlimited jivas in unlimited, unlimited, unlimited universes have come to this conclusion. “I’m outta here! You can keep Goloka and all that ecstasy! I’m off. Thank God for the Maya-shakti!”

 

Sri Krsna, who’s He? Better to change His Name to “Not so All-Attractive.” Or maybe “Temporarily All-Attractive.” What about “Subject to Envy at Home Planet?”

 

What to speak of “Infinitely-Intelligent”. How Krsna can be infinitely intelligent when He’s made a home for Himself wherein billions of souls are becoming envious of Him? Not really a smart thing to arrange when You are the Supreme Controller. Krsna must be very embarrassed to see all those souls becoming envious and rejecting Him in front of Mother Yasoda. Yes, all those remaining faithful servitors, it must plant a doubt in their minds: “Well, there are a lot of souls going to the jolly party down there in the material world. Maybe I should have a look to upgrade my pleasure by becoming a worm in the stool. Someone else can make the garlands. I’m outta here! ”

 

Is not the point clear? If we accept the theory that the soul falls from an established relationship of pure-prema with Sri Krsna, then Krsna and that relationship are not perfect. Rather that relationship is an on/off temporary affair, and Krsna Himself really quite forgettable once jiva is down there in the material world, chewing the chewed.

 

Actually, for the demoniac, this is the appeal of the fall-from-Goloka theory: It is an insult to Krsna, His servitors, and the relationship between them. From this theory, the clear implication is that these three are very much fallacious. Krsna is not All-Attractive, His servitors are not faithful, and bhakti-rasa is neither perfect, nor satisfying, nor permanent. So by propagating this theory, all three are degraded from their sublime transcendental position to secondary categories that have all the material qualities of impermanence and imperfection.

 

Having insulted the Lord, His servitors, and Bhakti-Marg in that way, the demoniac swell with pride. “Who’s going to be Krsna’s devotee now that I have proved it’s all quite mundane up there? I just killed three birds with one stone.”

 

When these demons are countered with the Vedic evidences that this writer has given in his previous posting “No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva”, their response is quite disingenuous: They ignore Vedanta-Sutra, they ignore the Seventh Goswami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, they ignore Bhagavad-Gita, and they ignore Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion:

• “The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” Purport, Sb. 3.16.26.

Instead of accepting this statement, and similar multifarious others, as the “conclusion” of Srila Prabhupada and offering their obeisances as defeated, they latch onto the chance to now denigrate Srila Prabhupada. They have already degraded Krsna, His Servitors, and Bhakti, they now see a chance to attack Krsna’s representative in the material world-the Guru and His commentaries. Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are “contradictory”. This proposed vacillation brings into question whether Srila Prabhupada actually knew what he was talking about. “Maybe he wasn’t sure about the jiva issue?” “Therefore maybe the rest of his commentaries are speculative and we need a good editor in there to change things around. Someone from the BBT.”

 

And why stop at the Guru and his commentaries? Why not have a swipe at the Vedas and Puranas, and their compiler Veda-Vyasa? “Apparently”, Veda-Vyasa has not done a very comprehensive job in compiling the Vedas and Their corollaries. Why? Because in all those sastras, Veda-Vyasa forgot to explain that the jiva falls from prema-rasa in Goloka out of envy. In fact, Veda-Vyasa got it all wrong and throughout the Vedas, Vedanta-sutra, and Bhagavad-Gita made the mistake of clearly stating many times that “No-one falls from the Abode of the Lord.”

 

Let this be the challenge to the fool and rascal purveyors of this groundless fall-from-Goloka theory: Kindly provide one description directly from the Vedas of a fall out of envy of the Supreme Lord of the jiva from Goloka Vrndavana…. Just one!

 

We have heard your self-serving contorted misinterpretations of Srila Prabhupada’s statements. So there is no need for more of that. We know your position on that. We know that in of the vast body of Srila Prabhupada’s recorded teachings that there are statements that can be bent in favor of ‘fall from Vaikuntha’. We know that you are good at word-bending and ignoring what doesn’t suit you. In this way you remind us of the mayavadis that will use the Vedas to prove that Krsna is made from maya and that ultimately the Absolute Truth is formless and impersonal. In fact, not only do you use the same ignoring and word-bending as the mayavadis, but also the implications of your theory make a nice fit with the mayavadis: Krsna and relationship with Him are subject to the rule of Maya-devi. It’s all temporary and imperfect.

 

And what is the ultimate implication of this fall from Goloka theory? It is that “Envy of Krsna defeats Love of Krsna, even in Goloka”. Now you see why it is so appealing to the demons: “Apparently”, Envy is the Power!

 

So purveyors, just give one clear and full description from the Vedas and Purana of the residents of Goloka Vrndavana becoming “envious” of Krsna and falling to the material world. We emphasize, because we know you love to bend words and ignore, that the description must be from the original sastras. Is that clear enough? Just one description from the ultimate authority of the Vedas of something that has happened, according to your theory, literally trillions and trillions and trillions of unlimited times!

 

Now even you cannot say the above request is “contradictory”.

 

We invite the biggest in the wobbly ISKCON superstructure to respond with this telling Vedic tale of ‘Envy in Goloka’. It is well known that Hrdyananda Goswami, Jayavaita Swami, Drutakarma dasa, Dravida dasa, Gopi-paranadhana dasa believe this absurd theory.

 

Oh great pandits! Where’s your sastric evidence…….?

 

We hope this is found helpful,

 

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

 

 

[CCC]

 

Below Balabadra prabhu suggests that in the spiritual world there can't be freewill since the attraction to be with Krishna completely destroys freewill?

 

Prabhupāda: Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Rene Descartes

DESCARTES.HAY

 

Devotee: He says that free will can be essentially eliminated. He says you no longer have the choice to be agreeable or not agreeable.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. That is another foolishness.

 

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda B. F. Skinner

SKINNER.SYA

 

Envy Rules, Kindly Follow!

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

 

Jan 10, CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) —

For many years now an idea has been bandied about in ISKCON, and only ISKCON, not in any other Vaisnava sampradaya, that the jiva in Goloka-Vrndavana becomes envious of Krsna, and as a result that jiva is cast into the material world where he rotates in the cycle of birth and death for what may be billions of lifetimes of ignorance and misery.

 

Well, so much for krsna-prema! Apparently it is not at all satisfying, Krsna and His devotee regularly give each other up, and the strong tendency is for the soul to wander off from the rasa-lila for pastures anew down there in the jolly material world. Yes, why rotate in the rasa-lila, when one can rotate in the cycle of birth and death?

 

And what’s all this about Krsna being “All-Attractive”. Apparently this is all just empty propaganda. Krsna actually should be known as the Object of Envy, not attraction. And unlimited, unlimited, unlimited jivas in unlimited, unlimited, unlimited universes have come to this conclusion. “I’m outta here! You can keep Goloka and all that ecstasy! I’m off. Thank God for the Maya-shakti!”

 

Sri Krsna, who’s He? Better to change His Name to “Not so All-Attractive.” Or maybe “Temporarily All-Attractive.” What about “Subject to Envy at Home Planet?”

 

What to speak of “Infinitely-Intelligent”. How Krsna can be infinitely intelligent when He’s made a home for Himself wherein billions of souls are becoming envious of Him? Not really a smart thing to arrange when You are the Supreme Controller. Krsna must be very embarrassed to see all those souls becoming envious and rejecting Him in front of Mother Yasoda. Yes, all those remaining faithful servitors, it must plant a doubt in their minds: “Well, there are a lot of souls going to the jolly party down there in the material world. Maybe I should have a look to upgrade my pleasure by becoming a worm in the stool. Someone else can make the garlands. I’m outta here! ”

 

Is not the point clear? If we accept the theory that the soul falls from an established relationship of pure-prema with Sri Krsna, then Krsna and that relationship are not perfect. Rather that relationship is an on/off temporary affair, and Krsna Himself really quite forgettable once jiva is down there in the material world, chewing the chewed.

 

Actually, for the demoniac, this is the appeal of the fall-from-Goloka theory: It is an insult to Krsna, His servitors, and the relationship between them. From this theory, the clear implication is that these three are very much fallacious. Krsna is not All-Attractive, His servitors are not faithful, and bhakti-rasa is neither perfect, nor satisfying, nor permanent. So by propagating this theory, all three are degraded from their sublime transcendental position to secondary categories that have all the material qualities of impermanence and imperfection.

 

Having insulted the Lord, His servitors, and Bhakti-Marg in that way, the demoniac swell with pride. “Who’s going to be Krsna’s devotee now that I have proved it’s all quite mundane up there? I just killed three birds with one stone.”

 

When these demons are countered with the Vedic evidences that this writer has given in his previous posting “No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva”, their response is quite disingenuous: They ignore Vedanta-Sutra, they ignore the Seventh Goswami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, they ignore Bhagavad-Gita, and they ignore Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion:

• “The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” Purport, Sb. 3.16.26.

Instead of accepting this statement, and similar multifarious others, as the “conclusion” of Srila Prabhupada and offering their obeisances as defeated, they latch onto the chance to now denigrate Srila Prabhupada. They have already degraded Krsna, His Servitors, and Bhakti, they now see a chance to attack Krsna’s representative in the material world-the Guru and His commentaries. Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are “contradictory”. This proposed vacillation brings into question whether Srila Prabhupada actually knew what he was talking about. “Maybe he wasn’t sure about the jiva issue?” “Therefore maybe the rest of his commentaries are speculative and we need a good editor in there to change things around. Someone from the BBT.”

 

And why stop at the Guru and his commentaries? Why not have a swipe at the Vedas and Puranas, and their compiler Veda-Vyasa? “Apparently”, Veda-Vyasa has not done a very comprehensive job in compiling the Vedas and Their corollaries. Why? Because in all those sastras, Veda-Vyasa forgot to explain that the jiva falls from prema-rasa in Goloka out of envy. In fact, Veda-Vyasa got it all wrong and throughout the Vedas, Vedanta-sutra, and Bhagavad-Gita made the mistake of clearly stating many times that “No-one falls from the Abode of the Lord.”

 

Let this be the challenge to the fool and rascal purveyors of this groundless fall-from-Goloka theory: Kindly provide one description directly from the Vedas of a fall out of envy of the Supreme Lord of the jiva from Goloka Vrndavana…. Just one!

 

We have heard your self-serving contorted misinterpretations of Srila Prabhupada’s statements. So there is no need for more of that. We know your position on that. We know that in of the vast body of Srila Prabhupada’s recorded teachings that there are statements that can be bent in favor of ‘fall from Vaikuntha’. We know that you are good at word-bending and ignoring what doesn’t suit you. In this way you remind us of the mayavadis that will use the Vedas to prove that Krsna is made from maya and that ultimately the Absolute Truth is formless and impersonal. In fact, not only do you use the same ignoring and word-bending as the mayavadis, but also the implications of your theory make a nice fit with the mayavadis: Krsna and relationship with Him are subject to the rule of Maya-devi. It’s all temporary and imperfect.

 

And what is the ultimate implication of this fall from Goloka theory? It is that “Envy of Krsna defeats Love of Krsna, even in Goloka”. Now you see why it is so appealing to the demons: “Apparently”, Envy is the Power!

 

So purveyors, just give one clear and full description from the Vedas and Purana of the residents of Goloka Vrndavana becoming “envious” of Krsna and falling to the material world. We emphasize, because we know you love to bend words and ignore, that the description must be from the original sastras. Is that clear enough? Just one description from the ultimate authority of the Vedas of something that has happened, according to your theory, literally trillions and trillions and trillions of unlimited times!

 

Now even you cannot say the above request is “contradictory”.

 

We invite the biggest in the wobbly ISKCON superstructure to respond with this telling Vedic tale of ‘Envy in Goloka’. It is well known that Hrdyananda Goswami, Jayavaita Swami, Drutakarma dasa, Dravida dasa, Gopi-paranadhana dasa believe this absurd theory.

 

Oh great pandits! Where’s your sastric evidence…….?

 

We hope this is found helpful,

 

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

 

 

 

Is possible to falldown from the spiritual world? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world? YES

[Kulapavana]

 

Below Balabadra prabhu suggests that in the spiritual world there can't be freewill since the attraction to be with Krishna completely destroys freewill?

 

 

Being in love has it's "drawbacks"

 

Have you ever been in love, Suchandra-ji? How much free-will did you have when it comes to being with your beloved? Which part of "No one falls down from Vaikuntha" do you not understand?

[suchandra]

 

Is possible to falldown from the spiritual world? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world? YES

Paramahaṁsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Fall down?

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Kṛṣṇa says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Kṛṣṇa- bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The māyā may be there, but māyā captures him who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. Therefore, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, māyā does not interfere anymore.”

Paramahaṁsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Kṛṣṇa brings us to our natural position.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

 

Morning Walk

At Cheviot Hills Golf Course

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

May 13, 1973, Los Angeles

"As soon as the servant feels like becoming the master, he falls into māyā. Thus it is by misuse of free will that one falls under the influence of māyā." Madhya11.189

[gHari]

 

Armed with two bags of words, Barry's brain prepares to demolish the opposition.

[Vedesu]

 

Armed with two bags of words, Barry's brain prepares to demolish the opposition.

 

But Barry's words are non-different than Barry himself. That's a mighty handsome brain Barry has and I admit that I'm just a bit envious, which, btw, is probably why I have fallen into this far-fetched dream I'm presently experiencing. But still, we really don't need be near or even see his form now, do we? The true test is how we respond to his words. Better that Barry mail those all-powerful words out from overseas and allow his shakti to do the rest. If anyone has doubts about the shakti to perform its magic, do please wake me up and allow me to share a dream I once had. A dream about Jaya and Vijaya.

 

Now, where was I. Oh yeah. Zzzzzzzz.. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz